Ask Richard: Single Mother’s Parents are Proselytizing Her Kid

There’s a reason religions love to preach to children, and it isn’t because “they’ll forget all that god stuff”

Great advice Richard!

Going only by what is written in the letter, the ‘proof’ of ‘indoctrination’ is that her daughter wanted to pray at a meal.. could it be that she simply saw her grandparents saying grace? Should they be forced not to do that because you don’t want your daughter exposed to their religious practices?

I’m slightly puzzled by:

Another year of this proselytizing will be very influential on her.

So…. how influential was it on the mother?

I could say the exact same thing about calling it “saying grace”. A child wouldn’t even know that it’s called grace unless someone explains that to them.

Maybe when the grandparents say grace it’s something like “I pray to you god, thank you for this blah blah blah” or something like that. Who knows really. Maybe it would help to ask the kid where she learned that?

She gives one example, and says it is not the first time. I think you need to be overly generous to the point of being naive to assume an innocent explaination.

Hmm! I’m not so sure about this. Religion is a fact of life, you encounter it often and insulating a child from it entirely does not sound like a good tactic. My daughter gets a fair amount of sneaky prosylitisation at school, but I’ve taught her to recognise it when she hears it. Sure very young children will mimic, but I don’t think this child’s critical thinking skills will be forever impaired by her grand-parents.

yeah I looked back and re-read that. My mistake. I thought this was the only incident. If the daughter has mentioned god and church before something is definitely up. Consider my earlier post void 😛

Assuming that you can’t afford to move out until you find a job and the situation doesn’t yet warrant getting student loans to pay for room, board, and childcare, you could play the foil to your parents (also assuming they can’t help indoctrinating).  Explain to your child that you don’t believe in God.  Tell her your thoughts on religion (like perhaps religion is all make-believe).  This may confuse your daughter hearing two different contradictory things… but hopefully this confusion will buy you time until you can afford to move out.  Perhaps this is the best you can hope for at the moment.  

Often the problem is that the parent takes a “I will not force my beliefs on them” approach whereas the grandparents and school take a “this is the Truth” stance. So the kid hears Jesus is real in one ear, and nothing in the other. Expose to low levels of religion for innoculation purposes are only worthwhile if you are going to talk to the child and say “that’s just someone’s opinion”

Dale McGowan has some great tips over at Parenting Beyond Belief. In fact I think he has a similar set up with religious grandparents.

She’s living with two former ministers, and as Richard points out, children are like sponges. It would be fairly stunning if she wasn’t making any allusions to religious practices. I do think it’s a bit of a stretch to read deliberate malice based on the evidence available, but Richard’s advice still holds good – even if the child is just picking stuff up rather than being actively taught it, it’s still worth avoiding if possible.

Hi! I know exactly how you feel mama! I have two children, ages 6 & 4, I’m an atheist and my mother-in-law is Catholic. Before I go through the other responses and the comments, I’d like to share what I think… 
You really have nothing to worry about. These little things your parents are sharing with your daughter are harmless and will not indoctrinate her permanatly into their belief system.  How they show love is FAR MORE VALUABLE AND IMPORTANT in your daughter’s and your life. Do you feel love is given in a positive manner by your parents? If so,  you can be certain they are transferring their love to your daughter with the same positive results.  My son, now 6, believed in God up until age 5, because of his grandma {lola} and the christian pre-school we sent him to {they have the BEST teachers, love them}. But he also believed in Santa and the tooth fairy {and kind of still does, depending on how deep I dig}. His temporary belief in god was not something I sweated for long {it was upsetting and made me angry at all those influence at first} but i did/do know, children have a mind of their own and as long as I honor his intelligence, share my love of information/answer seeking, both my kids will be okay.  Now, my son says he doesn’t believe in god and he doesn’t understand why people “believe in things like that.” I never told him what to believe, but I do share my perception with him without dancing around it – making sure to tell him that other people believe differently than his mama but that mama’s beliefs can be proven by science. I told him and my daughter that when something cannot be explained, we don’t have to make something up in order for it to make sense. We can test it… seek out information… ect. I tell him it is better to admit “I don’t know” or acknowledge “there is no proof therefore I don’t believe in that” rather than making something up. I know it is scary to trust what I am saying, but you really will be the biggest influence in your daughter’s life… trust her intelligence, she is not a robot that will be programmed. The more adults who show positive love to your little girl, the better. If you parents are loving, caring, wonderful people, cut them some slack. A few religious gestures are TOTALLY HARMLESS. I wouldn’t tell them that, do maintain your position, but don’t be afraid to let some of their behaviors go in one ear and out the other. This isn’t one of those worthy battles given your current situation and for the sake of your daughter’s relationship with two grandparents who are otherwise great. My advice would be to *not* move out and put yourself in financial strain while you are going to school. Being a single mom is hard, you need a village, you need a decent paying job to be independent from your parents… keep your eye on the big picture and your personal goals. Hang in there with your parents, what they are doing for you is very kind. I’m sure they can’t help themselves regarding their religious gestures/comments. My mother-in-law has even taken my son to church – he was so bored. You really do not have to punish your parents for this or worry about your daughter. You will be her main source of information now and for the rest of her life. Use these little incidences as opportunities to talk about what you believe, talk about supernatural belief vs. scientific knowledge. I know it is scary to trust what I am saying, just trust that you are going to be your daughter’s most important resource and trust that she will figure it out. She will. You are going to influence her more than your parents. 

That she says that is extremely disturbing in itself. She doesn’t understand what she is doing. She is too young for that. It’s only hollow ritual she has picked up somewhere.

If she fully understood what she is doing, I could say “Fine. Let her do it”. But she clearly doesn’t and that’s why it should be prevented.

I’d tell them that she is too young and to wait until she is older to teach her about religion. By then the financial situation may have improved and it’s possible to be more independent from the grand parents.

I think that this can only be an acceptable option IF indeed there teachings are harmless for the most part. Teaching a child about hell is not harmless, and should not be tolerated. Besides that there are still issues:

– The way the letter writer describes the situation, it sounds like the grandparents are the primary caretakers while she is studying. That gives them enormous influence over their granddaughter. It’s not a matter of grandma saying some silly things when we go see her on Sunday. This child is in constant contact with two people who are not only religious, but ministers and thus highly trained in religious indoctrination that can stick. It’s entirely too optimistic to think that the situation does not place her daughter at risk for adopting irrational faith claims, though I wholeheartedly agree with you that the best defense is to teach them critical thinking from an early age.

– There is a matter here of boundaries and how they should be respected. She has requested that her parents not indoctrinate their grandchild and they have agreed. They have not honored that agreement and are imposing their view of how a child should be raised over the view of that child’s mother. If this were a matter of giving her ice-cream and other forms of spoiling that grandparents are happily notorious for, I’d have no problem, but in this case, they appear to be willing to lie to their daughter in order to maintain access to their granddaughter for indoctrination. This is not OK.

Another big part of it is the way she said it. She didn’t say, “Are we going to pray?” or “Let’s pray.”  she exclaimed that she was praying as if it were something to be proud of.  Little kids do that all the time, I mean who hasn’t been through a “Don’t you see how good I’m being? I’m being soooooo good!” moment with a little one. 

To think that simply the act of praying makes her good and is a virtue of itself?  That takes brainwashing.

One thing to remember is that you do not have to take an all or nothing stance.  For example, let’s say you place the child in childcare two days a week, that being the limit of what you can afford without additional income.  Your parents will surely question this decision.  And when they do, you explain that despite your making it very clear that your daughter will not be brought up with religion, they are undermining you.  Therefore, you are going to find alternative childcare.  Two days a week is what you can afford now, so you are going to rearrange your schedule so that you can take a part time job and get your daughter into childcare full time.  

Most grandparents will accept your boundaries, if you show them that you have the will to enforce them.

I agree with you Michelle, as long as the child has a parent who is an advocate of rational thinking and is open and honest with their child about such things I wouldn’t worry too much about the little things learned simply from exposure. Brainwashing indoctrination is another thing. I’m also a mother of a 3 and 5 year old, I have Catholic parents, and I warned them when my daughter was born that if they tried to secretly have her baptized or try to tell her about God I would never let them babysit. Yes, they told me they were afraid that my family was going to hell, and I said thanks for your concern but we don’t believe in hell. I also realize that they aren’t going to take down their pictures of Jesus when we visit, so there is some exposure. But I think of it now as the same as seeing statues of Buddha or going into a Hindu home with pictures of their pantheon of gods or going to a wedding in a church. That’s not always a bad thing – it gives her the chance to see what other people do and believe, and I look forward to being able to share my own perspective. When my daughter has asked about God it’s usually something like, is God bigger than a dinosaur? And then we talk about it, and I’m sure my smart little kids will be able to see the difference between fantasy and reality and decide on the truth for themselves, like I did.

I think this was horrible advice to give someone.

The first thing to do is find out for sure if the Grandparents are trying to indoctrinate the child, and how. Perhaps the example of the child saying “I pray, I pray” was merely copying what she saw her Grandparents do. And I sure hope no one is expecting the Grandparents to not even practice their faith when the child is around.

Also, comments like “I have told them that there is no possibility that I will change my mind”  do nothing but harm your position.

Oh gosh, I so relate. My little girl is two. My parents are fundamentalists. I’m an atheist. I cringe when I visit, and am not looking forward to the future, as she gets older. My parents believe that without Jesus, my daughter will burn in hell for eternity. They will spare nothing to convert her to their beliefs. After all, they love her and want to save her soul from eternal torture. Yes, I’m the parent, and yes, my husband backs me up on this. But when family is involved it is SO HARD. At the moment, though, I’m actually more concerned about making sure that my parents and and the eight of my younger siblings who still live at home won’t spank her when we visit. Oh, and you know, how to tell them we don’t plan to homeschool. These are the kind of things you have to deal with after growing up in crazyland!

This is the first time I haven’t agreed with Richard.   I was questioning when my older daughter was about two – took years to complete the process, but from her birth she was being raised Catholic but always heard from me “People believe different things.  We are Catholic, we believe this, other people believe that, some people don’t believe in God at all.”   As she got older, it was “Dad is Catholic and he believes this, I don’t think there is a God because of this.”  At 13 she chose not to be confirmed and is an atheist.   My younger daughter is much more of a believer and much less of a critical thinker by nature, but also is already questioning at age 10, despite the Catholic upbringing by my husband, because of conversations she hears between me and older daughter.  

My point – I think some religious exposure is not threatening to a reasoned, critical thinking worldview, but some critical thinking is very threatening to a religious point of view.   I thought it was interesting that as I lost faith the deal with my husband was that I could do what I needed to do but he was not comfortable with me directly talking to them about my doubts.   Is faith such a fragile thing mere exposure to questioning can undermine years of religious training?  YES!    And you have the advantage of no limits on what YOU can tell your daughter.   “Nana and papa pray to say thank you to God for supper.   I think that’s funny!   A farmer grew the food, and Nana cooked it!    I will say thank you to Nana.”    “Why you no pray, mommy?”  “Some people think there is something we can’t see that gives us good things.  I don’t think so – I will talk to friends and family I love, not to a god that I don’t think is there.”    You don’t need to do this is front of them, but hearing constant counterpoint to the religious talk will have things work out, I think.   

As someone said, you can’t protect her from exposure to religious ideas and talk in our society, but by giving her critical ways to think about it you are inoculating her against the damage it can cause.    

I was in this exact boat a few years ago, single with a kid and needed help. My parents were there for us and without them–short version is things would have been bad for me and my daughter.

It’s difficult being angry with your parents for going against your child-rearing wishes while also being very grateful for their assistance. I was always both.

Is the price too high? It wasn’t for me. Now that we’ve moved out, I’ve gotten remarried which included my new wife adopting my daughter, my girl has a little brother and my like-minded wife and I make all the decisions for both our children. Over the past few years we’ve been able to undo the things my parents had done and everything is fine with no lingering hard feelings. My folks were always only doing what they thought was right and that included helping to set us up for our earthly future (important) as well as our unearthly future (fictional, unimportant).

My advice: You (Janine) and I have been blessed (if you’ll forgive the term) with people that care enough to help. Not everybody has that. I’m not going to tell you not to be upset- I couldn’t do that. I say: get over it. You don’t seem to realize how lucky you are. You can do damage control later.

I can see the reasoning behind Richard’s advice even if I disagree with it, but I absolutely support being honest with your parents about your beliefs. Giving them false hope you’ll reconvert is just cruel.

I know this my sounds incredibly obvious – but how about if this – if one doesn’t like the impact one’s parents are having on one’s child, don’t live with one’s parents. It’s absurd to move into someone else’s home and expect them to modify their behavior to suit one’s sensibilities.

Lots of good advice.

My 2cents (for what is worth) if you like your free room and board but not your baby-sitting arrangements, start saving your pennies and find a different day-care solution as soon as you can. Many campuses offer them to students at fair rates.

Good luck to you.

It’s not like she’s telling them to never pray in their house or to take down any references to religion or to turn off Fox News.  She’s asking them to not actively teach her child about God, Jesus, and religion.  I think that’s a fair request.  It’s one I made, and in my case, it was respected.  It’s not that hard to NOT preach to someone.

I’d start raising her on stories about Hercules and various Greek Gods.  It’s what worked to inoculate   me when my neighbor kids took me off to Awana to play games and learn about god. When they caught on that I was categorizing their stories about Jesus in the same place I put Zeus and Grims Farie Tales and the Jungle Book they stopped inviting me.

A lot of atheists see religious claims as not just extraordinarily unlikely, but logically impossible.

Even if that’s not where Janine is coming from, I think a case could be made for being more forceful with family than you would be with a stranger. Especially if there are children involved, as otherwise the parents might pray for guidance and decide that God wants them to convert their granddaughter to save her immortal soul first, and then convert the mother once they have the whole family united in Christ. Best to dash that dream ASAP.

Janine is doing the responsible thing in making it clear that the grandparents have no hope of converting her or her daughter, and if they try she will take her daughter and leave.

I would say more investigation would be in order.  Is there a way to ask your daughter more about it?  Is she just imitating behavior or is it more.  I do understand that it depends on just what type of Christianity we are talking about, but that is not clear.  Single parents often run into this type of situation where the other party is not doing his or her part to support the child(ren) and they must turn to family for help.  This turns into a power struggle because the, now grandparents, often have a difficult time seeing the their child as an independent adult and still think they know what is best.  I’m not sure how I’ll handle that later either.  The bottom line is I would find out more before acting too rash, but have a couple of plans just in case.

What’s worthy of more respect, a stubborn assertion or a demand for verifiable evidence?

The statement “There’s no possibility I’ll change my mind” demonstrates a stubbornness, which people may take as an invitation to try again later, perhaps when they think you’ve become more reasonable.

The statement “Provide me with the extraordinary evidence required for this claim” sets a standard for your beliefs, one that many know they won’t be able to provide. It also creates more of a dialogue and understanding than simply shutting down what others are saying.

It’s not about being firm or harsh. It’s about demonstrating a consistency in your thinking.

That is all well and good, but in this case the letter writer made a statement that she did not want her parents teaching her children about faith, yet at least. Her parents agreed, but the letter writer feels that they have done so anyway. We can’t tell if that is true or not, but if it is, I don’t think Richard is unreasonable. This is a cause about one party allegedly agreeing to a set of values the mother wanted to raise her daughter in, then going back on that. 

Wether or not the daughter SHOULD be exposed to the faith is an entirely different question, this question was about what to do with parents who were allegedly going back on their agreement. The mother and sole guardian of this child should choose when is the best time to talk about these things with her child, and her parents should not undermine that. 

You are right. In the context of the question she asked that was a good answer. Maybe some of the replies can give her some peace of mind and some more choices while still staying with her principles.

To be honest, the main thing I’d be worried about would be if the letter writer thinks her child is being indoctrinated into thinking that being religious is synonymous with being good.  I don’t think it will hurt her daughter to hear a few bible stories or see a few rituals, but to be told that the only way to be a good person is to believe a certain thing?  That’s a problem.

I agree with Richard on this.  You need to find a different source of childcare; your current one is too expensive.
You had an agreement with your parents, one that they failed to live up to – repeatedly.  If you don’t enforce some consequences now, any future arrangements you have with them will be maintained at their convenience.  They’ll feel free to lie to you and continue to indoctrinate your daughter – because the worst that will happen is they have another argument with you, but they’ll have ‘saved your daughter’s soul’. 

While looking for another place for childcare, I agree with Sunny Day’s suggestion.  Expose your daughter to the myths of various cultures; Greek, Roman, Chinese, Native American, Hindu, whatnot.  This makes Jesus and God just one of the gods she’ll know about, which may help prevent her from filing your parent’s Bible stories under nonfiction.

You missed a key point though. IF it’s true the parents were purposefully teaching their grandchild despite the wishes of their daughter, it would justify taking a stricter approach. However, Richard didn’t suggest that. He used the same argument so many Atheists tend to use when he essentially said “All religion is bad and will taint a child’s psyche”. No matter how convenient of an analogy it makes, children aren’t sponges.

The Mother also said “I want to raise my daughter to be a critical thinker”. How is she planning on doing this? Protecting her child from all the bull in the world isn’t the way to go about it. Let the child see that there are good, intelligent people who believe some crazy things, since that’s the reality.

The respectable position is to look after the interests of her child, which Janine is doing by holding firm.

More interestingly, why do you have scare quotes around “deconverting?” It’s the correct term.

is it absurd to expect them to hold to what they agreed to?

That’s not really a position in this discussion. The proper way to look after a child is subjective. I’m sure the grandparents only have good intentions.

And I’m not sure if “deconverting” is a proper word, so I quoted it as yours. Even if it were a proper word, wouldn’t it indicate a conversion took place to begin with? The parents could very well have been raised as Christians, therefore I’m not sure saying they converted to it is appropriate. I suppose an argument could be made that everyone converts to their respective religion, since all babies are Atheists. But there’s enough semantics already.

I’d suspect it wasn’t deliberate, except that it is being done behind the mother’s back.

But we only have the provided information, and if the letter writer’s perception is flawed and her provided information wrong, then it would be a nearly inhuman feat of insight for Richard to say so with certainty. The best he can ever do is to take the circumstance reasonably presented to him and advise accordingly. Which in this case I think he did, and offered her a potential solution to her frustrating gridlock.

I highly doubt she would place her daughter into a day care if that move would have a significant negative financial impact on their lives, and to her the money may be worth the peace of mind she gains in asserting her own parental control. 

Sure, he may have improved the response by including more information, but the response is not unreasonable.

I was raised in a heavily christian family, and found Richard’s reply intriguing. Switch the religious roles and you arrive at the advice given to Xtian parents hoping to preserve the ideological purity of their impressionable children. The sponge ‘exercise’ felt particularly similar in its lack of actual relevance.
While it is true that children are exceptional at parrotting behavior, I think adults are often unaware of the conditioning effect of their responses. For example, my sister laughs when my niece imitates her by pushing a stroller, posing for a camera, or cleaning something, and then remarks on how uncannily ‘girly’ she is. Regarding the prayer situation, I imagine something similar.
That is not to say that this mother’s wishes should not be respected by the GPs. However, she does not control her daughter’s mind and must accept that the child may grow up to believe something she does not. And if the daughter associates atheism with the loss of her GPs affection, it may create an averse reaction. Thus, I think isolation is not the solution.  I agree with several previous posters — these present opportunities to encourage critical thinking, perhaps via the Socratic method.
Disclaimer here — this is based on the limited information in the letter. If the GPs are explicitly ignoring the mother’s request, then I think a serious conversation needs to happen, in which boundaries and consequences are clearly stated.

I think it is absurd to assume that somehow their faith will
not be evident just because they made such an agreement. It’s like living with
pastry chefs and saying, “Now, I don’t want you to encourage my daughter
to eat sweets”. The solution to the dilemma is rather obvious

.

“Give me the boy before the age of seven, and I will give you the man” – a quote often attributed to Ignatius of Loyola, founder of the Jesuit order.

OOPS!  My bad.  I meant to respond to Janine and Richard.  Your comments are right on, Michelle.

Of course he wouldn’t stand for it. Think about those Christians that work so hard to ban gays from marrying, often primarily because they don’t want their kids to see it as normal! or no teaching evolution, because they believe in Creation? No real Christian parent is going to let 2 atheists spend all day teaching their kids that God doe ant exist and Jesus is a myth! and you know what, we wouldn’t expect them too, either.

Being tolerant means TOLERATING behavior and beliefs you don’t agree with. not subjecting your dearest, innocent loved one to them all day.

“from the material largesse that flows from their beliefs…”
WTH does this mean? That they have a home only because of their faith? Huh?

Offering to shelter their daughter and granddaughter, so they can get ahead and become fully independent and better off, if a nice thing to do. But it doesn’t mean they get to walk all over her, and disregard her wishes- especially after they agreed to follow them!

Your attitude is troubling. Feeding and housing someone doesn’t give you the right to do whatever you want to them, you have to respect them as humans too. I support my husband and baby, does this mean it’s my way or the highway? What about my elderly Mom? Does she have to put up or shut up too, because I pay for her housing? While I agree that appreciation is necessary, and there is a certain amount of personal issues/quirks/behaviors you have to put up with when staying with someone, the idea that she needs to swallow this crap without a complaint is just awful. I wouldn’t expect my Mom to be an atheist, or force her to read Dawkins every night, just because I pay for food!

I agree with those who suggested that the little girl may just be imitating her grandparents personal prayers, without having been encouraged/taught to.  They are entitled to pray in their own homes before sharing a meal and she’s bound to notice and ask them what they’re doing with the simple explanation of “Grandma is praying”.  If going to church is a big part of their life, it’s only natural that she might see them leaving for church, meet their friends from church or overhear conversations about church between her grandparents and fellow members who are not actively trying to proselytise.

If it were me, I would initiate a conversation with my parents along the lines of “This evening ________ folded her hands and exclaimed that she was praying.  I so appreciate what you are doing to help us and value your relationship with her, but we’ve discussed my wish to raise her without religion, so I thought I would reiterate my concern that she not be taught to practice religious rituals.  I realize that this is your home and she may just be imitating what she sees you do, but it bothered me enough that I wanted to ask you about it.”  Hopefully you’ll be able to have a productive conversation and end by acknowledging your continued gratitude for what they’ve done and thank them for being willing to have a difficult conversation with you to keep the lines of communication open.  You could also ask them if there’s anything they’ve been hesitant to talk to you about regarding your living relationship.

As someone else mentioned, it certainly wouldn’t hurt to check into the possibility of at least part time day care through the university, whether you confront your parents or not.  

Starting to take her to the children’s class at a Unitarian church might be a good idea.

And lastly, although it’s difficult to find good books for small children that encourage free thinking I would recommend “Whoever You Are” by Mem Fox, in board book format and some of Todd Parr’s books “The Peace Book”, “The Family Book”, “It’s OK to be Different”, etc.   If you can’t afford to order any of these for her birthday, etc., you can probably borrow them from your local library.

Forget the religious side of it entirely.

You have made a decision for your child.  Your parents are deliberately undermining it, going behind your back after promising they wouldn’t.

The issue could be giving your child sugar and junk food after promising they’d follow the healthy diet you set out.

The issue could be letting your child watch TV when you’ve grounded the child from watching TV.

The issue could be cutting your child’s hair when you were planning to grow it out.

The issue itself is completely irrelevant.

You are her parent.  It is your decision, not theirs.  And if they cannot understand that, then you are 100% within your rights to cut contact between them and your child.