HBO’s Big Love To Show Mormon Temple Ceremony

Reminds me of the stories of early persecution of Christians.
I’d heard they were persecuted as cannibals because nobody non-christian was allowed into their ceremonies but rumor was they ate the body and drank the blood of someone.

Seriously, secret religious ceremonies in today’s age only leads to mistrust, just as it did then. I’m guessing it’s really very boring, but it’s THEIR boring ceremony and they don’t want to share.

I was raised mormon but never attended the temple. The mormons claim it’s not to keep things secret, but sacred. There are many things in mormonism kept secret until you’re already involved and doing them. The temple is the biggest example. The mormon church provides “temple preparedness” classes, but they don’t actually teach what goes on in the temple and the promises made – that is not found out until the member is going through initiatory ceremony, often with the pressure of family expectations.

Even weddings in the temple are only open to those who have gone through their initial run. I was excluded from my only sibling’s wedding despite being old enough. Women are supposed to wait until their marriage so their husband can guide them through the process.

Todd: Apparently Joseph Smith had a LOT of connections to freemasonry, so I’m not surprised about the connection!

It’s not til you get to temple that they teach you about Galactic Overlord Xenu.

Zar, that’s the scientologists, and that’s no big secret to anyone.

What it comes down to is respect. No, Mormons are not ashamed of what happens in the temples. They value the ceremonies and promises too highly to offer them to the world to critique. Any member of the church can go to the temple as long as they are worthy and willing to live the precepts taught by the church. They prepare for the temple in order to show respect to God. They ask that respect be shown for their beliefs.

Frankly, I don’t believe that satisfying the curiosity of the mob is sufficient cause to disrespect something thousands of people hold sacred. If it’s important enough to you to find out what happens in the temples, take the steps necessary to go there.

Big Love is an example of crude social fun. They take what one religious group holds sacred and publish it to the world outside of its intended context. There is no respect or honor by taking what one religion treats as sacred and showing it on a drama television show. I am truly disgusted by this show. I find this show has so many errors of the truth that it will have a huge negative effect on the LDS culture. Another big problem is nobody knows the difference between F-LDS, LDS, and Mormon. Anything with Mormon is part of the LDS church, which do Not practice polygamy. F-LDS is the Fundamental Latter Day Saints which still practice polygamy. The makers of Big Love have said that these characters are NOT LDS (Mormon).

“The term Mormon is not properly applied to the other … churches that resulted from the split after (Joseph) Smith’s death.” In other words, polygamous communities should never be referred to as “Mormon” polygamists or “Mormon” fundamentalists.” – From: LDS Response To Big Love
For information go to F-LDS or LDS (Mormons)

I think that the whole thing is disgustingly sad. I am not Mormon, however, these people do hold their temple ceremonies to be sacred. I think that it’s terrible that someone would try to exploit a process like this for T.V. ratings. Is there no respect for anything anymore? These people are generally the first to help out in disasters, they helped me through Katrina without asking anything in return. They are well organized, helpful, and kind. But there are too few out there who respect their faith and that’s a shame. Just because you or I don’t understand it or why they do it does not mean that we should be putting it all over television.

The ceremony is much like a play with a few pauses for participants to don the robe, apron, etc. as symbols and to also perform symbolic hand gestures. Much of it is lifted straight from Masonry. It’s extremely dull, other than the clothing and gestures, which make it kind of creepy in a “cult” sort of way. (I’m an exmo and attended the temple for several years.)

You can read a transcript of the ceremony here:

http://www.lds-mormon.com/compare.shtml

Note that the ceremony has been edited several times over the years. This link shows the changes that occurred in 1990.

I’m a practicing member of the Church. Naturally, I can’t answer for everyone, but I find it somewhat of a bother. I suppose the main thing that bothers me is that it feels like someone is abusing something important to me, ultimately, for profit. I have other concerns as well (such as the harm that can be done by expressing these things to people, particularly younger members of the Church who have not been through the temple, outside of the proper context), but they’re going ahead with it, so that’s that.

It’s not as if this would be the first time. In any situation involving this many people, nothing will be kept secret (which is why I don’t think “secret” was ever really considered the intention)

I expect some members of the Church will loudly and angrily protest and whine about it, because people handle disappointment in different ways.

However, I also expect that there will be no bombs, and no HBO executives knifed in the street, which, I think, shows a certain degree of maturity.

The temple ceremony isn’t really that secret anymore – ex-Mormons have published several versions of it on the Web. It’s almost like doing the nativity play or Stations of the Cross, except interactive. So content-wise, really not a lot to be secretive about, but the social and performative aspects of a “secret ritual” are obviously appealing.

Secret ceremonies have been part of “in group” behavior for millennia, so Mormon ceremonies aren’t something new and disturbing.
However, I’m ambivalent about this being shown. Regardless of your opinions about the Mormon church (I’m an atheist and I have nothing but scorn for their doctrines), people should be able to say “this is sacred to me, and it’s not for everyone else’s entertainment.”
We as outsiders are not entitled to barge into the private spaces of people in any culture.

Funerals, as far as I know, are not held in the temple. I’ve never heard of one and have never been to one. “Sealings” or marriage ceremonies are, but many friends have also had a civil ceremony to accomodate family and friends who could not go to the temple.

HBO should reconsider airing this episode. They obviously do not understand the repercussions this will have on their subscribers.

Is it right to make fun of the Pope for dressing differently? Or does it make it right to make fun of Hindus for holding the bovine as sacred since you may not hold the same belief?

What is it that is so threatening about a group that holds sacred ceremonies? And particularly the Mormons – is it because it is seen as exclusive or secretive so it is justifiable in spreading what they hold as between them and God? Is it so shocking that Catholic Nuns and Priests wear garb and make very similar promises/vows of chastity and poverty?

As a member of the LDS faith, I attend LDS temples regularly. I consider it a privilege. The intent is not to exclude anyone. The LDS faith actively proselytizes and temple worship is reserved for those who are disciplined within the faith. All are welcome, but all will not understand why it is sacred. Airing these details will make private matters public. It is a direct and purposeful defilement and should be regarded as such by anyone who watches it or supports that the ceremony be aired.

If you are really interested and investigate what has already been spread, you’ll find that you come up short on the shock value. 90% of it is taken from the Bible. So what makes it worse is that if and when you see portions of the ceremony, they will likely not be accurately portrayed because it’s just not as exciting as what it’s advertised to be. It’s not exciting; it’s intended to be deep in meaning.

HBO should reconsider airing this episode.

There’s nothing we’re hiding. It’s just right up there with why do not readily share experiences with others that have deep meaning. To us it’s as basic as why we all wear clothes everyday – there’s just somethings that we can keep to ourselves that shouldn’t be threatening and should be respected.

i completely agree, CatBallou. i think things that are sacred to people should be respected. people’s beliefs/practices are exploited on t.v. all the time, and i don’t really like it. i get what it means to be curious about something. but that doesn’t mean i automatically have the right to know all about people’s personal biz.
also this: “Women are supposed to wait until their marriage so their husband can guide them through the process” isn’t true. i have a lot of mormon friends. a lot of the single girls have gone through the temple. women can go whenever they feel like they are ready to.

I’m in a Fraternity, and I sure as heck would rather outside people not know the different secrets and rituals that my brothers and I share. Not the handshake (though it can be easy to catch), not initiation rites, none of it. Most of it is boring and rather unimpressive, but that’s not the point.

Part of what makes a fraternity unique is that you and a body of other men share something that only you know because you have all gone through it. Even if other people do similar things, that doesn’t detract from the fact that you and you brothers have all shared something which nobody else experiences to your knowledge.

The Mormons take it to extremes, it seems, but I don’t think you can necessarily hold them to blame for wanting to keep something exclusive. I never understood that until I joined up with my Fraternity.

Now, if they were going to attack them on a legal level, that’s a different story.

Mormons actually would love for all people to attend to temple. That is why we have approximately 60,000 missionaries throughout the world to teach the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Most churches have rituals that involve covenants with God, such as baptism and marriage. However, once you have made those covenants you are accountable for your actions according to those covenants. For example, once you have covenanted to be baptised and take upon you the name of Jesus Christ, you are responsible to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. The reason that not just anyone can attend the temple is because we want them to be ready to live according to the covenants they make. If someone is not willing to follow Christ in simple matters, such as Sabath observance, then they will not be ready to make other covenants. That is why it is sacred and why there are prerequisits for attending the temple.

We believe that all people, regardles of wether they accepted the gospel in this life or after, will be given a fair and equal opportunity to accept the gospel of Jesus Christ and either perform the saving ordinances or have them performed in proxy on their behalf. We want everyone to come to the temple. We do not want anything to be secret. We do, however, believe that covenants with God are sacred and need to be treated as such.

From what I’ve been told, the endowment ceremony is pretty bizarre. There’s a point in the ceremony where you wear nothing but a poncho while a priest gives you a full body annointment. And then they teach you one of the secret handshakes which you need to get into the right church in heaven. Apparently, Mormons swear to stop anyone from revealing this secret ceremony. I don’t know if it’s all true, but my source is an ex-mormon guy.

Has anyone here read Freakonomics? I recall a chapter about how the KKK ultimately came to be ridiculed, because someone went undercover and revealed all their secret handshakes and stuff. I thought that was pretty funny.

I just don’t feel that this is something that should be aired to satiate the curiosity of the average joe. Shaggy is right – I felt very differently until I pledged with my Frat.

Perhaps this is just the beginning though. Maybe next they can look into what really happens behind closed doors when they are choosing the next Pope.

Whatever does go on in the Mormon temples may be boring and bothersome… it may be lifted from free masonry – but it is special to those people and I don’t think that it should be depicted on television. I know that I wouldn’t want my Frat stuff depicted on Television…

(still a chance to edit) for Miller – it’s Highly doubtful that you get nekked and wear a poncho – I mean – half the people in the mormon church are old biddies – do you really think that they are all getting nekked??) That’s just not right –

The Mormons take it to extremes, it seems, but I don’t think you can necessarily hold them to blame for wanting to keep something exclusive.

I don’t blame them for wanting to keep this exclusive.

What I’m doing is wondering what makes their desire to keep it exclusive rule that non-members need to abide by.

For example, I’m pretty dang sure that Scientology doesn’t like their secrets publicized either. I’m wondering if declaring your secrets sacred means that they are allowed to stay secret when your members leave you.

I am LDS, active and a former bishop.

CatBallou makes a fair statement that applies to many religions besides mine. I was not raised LDS but have been a member for many years.

I do not believe that Jews would appreciate people coming in and filming everything that goes on in their religion or Catholics having all their conferences for bishops and church leaders filmed. Of interest, television never threatens to do so but Mormons are easy targets because they’re not “mainstream”, whatever that means.

Siamang, I have presided over and attended 50 plus funerals for members and a LDS leader does not exclude any family member from participating in any aspect of the funeral unless other family members request that it occur, e.g., a family prayer and last viewing of the body immediately before the casket is moved into the chapel. So, if some family members were excluded, it was at the request of the family, how exactly is that the Church’s fault?

So, I am really not sure what you are referring to in this regard. The only other situation where church members are involved is dressing the body of a person and that has to do with the same sacredness issues that started this whole bruhaha.

As for your example of throwing trash into your neighbor’s yard as being “sacred”, is that the best analogy you can come up with, it’s not logical or analogous. First, what goes on in a temple involves only people that choose to be there, it is sacred, it causes no harm to anyone, it affects no one else’s personal or property rights and it breaks no laws.

Your analogy is the equivalent of if I say it’s sacred to pull out a gun and shoot my neighbor, no one should be able to look sideways at that, COME ON, that is a ridicuous analogy and doesn’t really help you to understand CatBallou’s reasoning. It simply takes his or her pretty neutral stance and twists it very badly.

Also, Llewelly, I am really curious about how: “Widespread understanding of religious ceremonies will, I think, help people understand the reliance of religion on theatre, sophistry, and charlatanry”? There is no way that a TV show depicting part of what goes on in an LDS temple is going to give people a “widespread understanding” and that certainly isn’t HBO’s intent, is it?

HBO hopes to stir up “interest” by creating a controversy, which seems to be working given the number of emails I’ve received from LDS friends. But, I can guarantee you that HBO will not have a serious discussion of the rituals of the temple and even if they did, their opinions about what happened would not coincide with my opinions. In fact, I doubt that you could get 10 members who have attended the temple to agree on what happened because it is dependent upon the person’s understanding of symbolism and how that person is affected by the spirit that occurs during the temple ceremony. But, of course, we can expect that the directors, actors and producer will fully depict all of that in their 2-3 minute snippet, right?

Miller, either your friend has never been in a LDS temple or he’s a moron. What he states is completely untrue and a pure fabrication. So, please do not use a completely unreliable source to pass off fiction as fact.

It’s really unfortunate that HBO feels that they need to poke my religion for ratings. I’m sure not many people will get too upset but wait until they poke your religion, your fraternity, sorority or something else that’s important to you; then it will be terrible and the worst thing in the world.

I prefer that sacred things of any religion or culture be treated that way. HBO should be ashamed of themselves for airing something like this but ask me if I’m surprised. I grew up in So. Cal., my wife’s father was involved in the entertainment industry and nothing surprises me that comes from this group. They’ll do anything for a buck, and yes, I do mean anything. So, why would we expect that they would understand the “sacredness” of something like this?

I’ll pass on this HBO and anything else you have to offer. Aftr all, I can only vote with my remote, right?

It’s a fairly common feature of cults that they withhold information until the initiate’s investment is large enough.

There’s a couple reasons for this. The first is the mystery. Everyone wants to get to the centre and find out what’s there, so people will often make investments they wouldn’t otherwise just so that they can be “in” on the secret (how many stupid things did you do when you were a kid so that you could join some silly club that turned out dead-boring?).

Another reason is the power of imagination. In the horror movie industry, it’s common knowledge that a shown monster is never as scary as a monster kept in the shadows. This is because reality rarely lives up to our imagination. By keeping ceremonies hidden, you allow people to imagine that many wonderful things take place (such as being able to see God, as in some cults).

As for investment, this can come in all sorts of forms. The biggies are emotional investment (you’ve spent so much time and gone through so many trials) and financial investment (you’ve spent so much money). The human mind has the amazing capacity of trying to convince us that we’ve made the right choices by making us perceive things that we had to work really hard for as being much better than things we didn’t. This is why fraternities have hazing. At the end of it, individual loyalty to the group is all that much stronger because the process of getting in was difficult. People have devoted so much of themselves to the group that they have to convince themselves that the outfit poor Barb is wearing is actually dignified, or risk feeling like an idiot.

It’s pathetic that they would try to defend their cultishness by claiming “offence.” Isn’t it typical, though? The whole UN resolution fiasco we had recently is part of the exact same thing. It’s also sad that, in an age where the strategies of cults are so splayed out in the public eye and documented in hundreds of books, blogs, and television programs, that people seem no more prepared to resist them!

I’m LDS, aka Mormon. This probably sounds ridiculous to most people, but I am shocked that Big Love would disrespect any religion, LDS or other, to this degree. Mormons hold the temple and the ceremonies involved therein very sacred. It is not some weird secret thing that we have to be hush-hush about so that everyone doesn’t think we’re big weirdos. Rather, it’s held sacred because it is a beautiful place where the calming spirit can be felt. I say this as someone who has experienced the temple endowments and so on. I hold high respect for other’s religions and would not want to exploit things that they hold sacred. Therefore, it hurts to see others exploiting what we hold sacred by treating it as, basically, a joke.

“The ordinances and ceremonies of the temple are simple. They are beautiful. They are sacred. They are kept confidential lest they be given to those who are unprepared. Preparation for the ordinances includes preliminary steps: faith, repentance, baptism, confirmation, worthiness, a maturity and dignity worthy of one who comes invited as a guest into the house of the Lord.” – Boyd K. Packer

I love the temple. I’m not some weird cult member, I don’t have horns, I don’t think all religions are false, and I wouldn’t get involved in something that I didn’t feel was right and good. Let’s respect eachother’s religious beliefs a little more, shall we? 🙂

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints has come under much scrutiny of late!
I don’t have a long intellectual argument to share…I would like to believe that those things that others find private, meaningful, and “sacred”, should be allowed to remain private. In a world full of filth and vulgarity why can’t a group of people quietly go about doing good be left to do just that.

It is sacred. A lot of people don’t know what that means because they could care less about religion or God. The things that happen inside the temple are affecting anyone on the outside.

I’m not a perfect member and haven’t been to the temple in more than 2 years, but I still hold it sacred and important. These are promises that we make between ourselves and God. How would you like private promises you make with your self or someone who was very close to you made public and screamed out at every street corner? How would you like it if people laughed at what you held to be important and sacred? It isn’t right.

Having been through the temple at one point in my life, I think the LDS faithful will be sure to create a stir about this.

The story of the temple endownment is pretty basic: the 6 days of creation and then some promises you must keep in life.

I’m curious to see how current they make this. Since I’ve did the temple, there’s been some changes (they don’t make you do the pseudo hand moving across your throat anymore).

Personally, if I was of the Mormon faithful, I would not draw any attention to this. It will only make people more curious. But you know that’s going to happen and this will be one of the most watched and anticipated “Big Love” episodes.

@Grimalkin:

You do realize that simply identifying similarities between a mainstream religion and cults does not make the religion a cult (or even “cultish”), right? I could probably point out many things you have in common with a child rapist–you have arms, legs, reproductive organs and a sex drive–but I’m not going to come to the conclusion that you are one.

So while the definition of “cult” is loose enough to describe pretty much any group of people, if you’re attempting to claim that “because the LDS Church appears to employ methods a, b and c, they must be extreme and outside the mainstream, then you are incorrect. As always, correlation does not indicate causation. And, as we may observe, Mormon doctrines by and large just teach people to (with wildly varying degrees of success) cherish their friends and families, live clean lives, be honest and hard working, and occasionally engage in social causes you don’t agree with. The remainder of the teachings are metaphysical afterlife stuff that shouldn’t matter to you one way or another.

@Miller:
I can tell you from recent experience that your friend was either mistaken or didn’t communicate the point very well. In the temple, Mormons only promise to keep the things taught to themselves. There is absolutely no commitment to constrain any other person in any way. In fact, the commitments made in the temple, besides the “no revealing this” stuff, can be found in the New Testament, i.e. law of chastity, law of consecration, being prayerful, that sort of thing. Except any weirdness a person might like to assign to it, it’s all completely harmless.

I am hugely opposed to the Temple ceremonies being splattered all over the television. The word sacred or private no longer exist in our society and that makes me sad.

The “lifted from Masonry” comments are quite naive. In Nauvoo, Illinois, there were more than 1500 members of the church that were masons in the early church. Yes, there are some similarities with masonry and the temple ceremony, but the temple ceremony didn’t *come* from masonry. If Joseph Smith had simply copied from masonry, do you think that these thousands of masons would have just ignorantly continued to follow mormonism? You have many very intelligent mormons in the church when it first started, and they were searching for truth. To simply “lift” from masonry would have been a HUGE clue to them. And the fact is, these early mormons didn’t view it that way at all, and didn’t leave the church when the temple ceremony started.

Where did Masonry get their ceremonies? This is actually the more relevant and enlightening question.

Jesus said “don’t cast your pearls before swine”, and, although that is a harsh statement, it contains the essence of the issue here. Some things are sacred.

As a member of the LDS church I often hear the complaints and criticism of others about temple ceremonies. I won’t attempt to explain why they are so sacred or why they are not shared with the outside world but I will attempt to ask fellow citizens to let the LDS faithful worship in accordance to the dictates of their own consciences. I assure you that nothing like abuse or weird sacrifices is taught in the LDS religion. We simply seek to worship and serve Our Savior Jesus Christ. I understand that many people have false presumptions about the church, the only way to find out the true background and teachings is to speak with actual representatives of the church.

The producers of Big Love hired people who left the church and possibly harbor negative feelings towards it and wish to harm it. HBO does not have the right to even attempt to display sacred ceremonies without the permission of the church.

I’m a Mormon. Any person can go into a temple during an open house, before a temple is dedicated-into every room. There is nothing to be ashamed of. I am concerned about accuracy and respect.

Big Love knows this is sacred to us and something we don’t share freely, yet here they are on tv for ratings sharing it. Automatically that indicates a lack of respect.

I would feel disrespected if a documentary portrayed a full temple ceremony merely for the sake of full disclosure; but at least there would hopefully be an attempt at accuracy. Big Love already portrays polygamy as a current Mormon practice, so we know accuracy is not their strong point. How much timne would I spend feeling disrespected…not long. Why bother? Aren’t we all too busy for that?

People who have left the church or those from different churches who practice polygamy would not be allowed into a Mormon temple.

There is actually very little we cannot talk about from the temple.

I’m a mom, so humor the analogy. It is easy for me to explain to my single friends how often my baby wakes up, how many diapers I change, how tired I am…but very difficult to explain the feelings I feel when I hold her and look into her beautiful face. That context is difficult to grasp. Any experience we value is difficult to really explain. That could be anything from a religious point of view, to skiing on fresh powder, climbing a mountain, creating something new… Words don’t always do an event justice.

The church doesn’t claim offense, though individual members may. If you want to see what the church thinks about it check out lds.org

College Guy – you said “How would you like it if people laughed at what you held to be important and sacred? It isn’t right.”

Why do you think that people will laugh at it? The episode hasn’t been aired yet and you already assume that it will be treated with condescension. I happen to watch Big Love and, honestly, I’ve seen nothing but a careful and serious consideration for what they portray.

I do find it interesting that you assume “outsiders” will laugh at what you consider sacred. Is it because they are inherently silly?

In either case, being able to learn about and to criticise ideas, beliefs, and what people (others and myself) consider sacred is fundamental to having a healthy perspective. I have every right to judge your sacred ideas. You have every right to judge mine. It is right.

LittleWoodenBoy – You said that religions are not the same as cults. I would like to hear your explanation of the differences. How are religions (particularly smaller/localised religions like Mormonism) not cults/like cults?

erm – you said “Churches and practices of worship are pretty different than the IRS. I call a bad comparison and award you no points.”

I compared churches to private companies, not to the IRS.

Also, it wasn’t a comparison. Organizations, regardless of whether they are companies or churches, become dangerous when they cease being subjects of scrutiny and criticism. When you* say “it is forbidden to question anything religions hold sacred,” you open the doors to having corrupt leaders making horrible things (like female genital mutilation, terrorism, oppression of women, infanticide, human sacrifice, etc.) sacred. And then what? It can’t be stopped, regulated, or even so much as condemned because it’s “sacred.”

When you claim special privileges for the things you hold sacred, YOU open them up for corruption and destruction. Your greatest threats come from within, from people who think that they can get away with using your own beliefs to exploit you because YOU asked that sacred things be beyond criticism.

*I use “you” in the general sense. I have no idea if you, personally, have any of these opinions at all.

CatBallou,

You said it better than I did. We can choose to disagree on many things, my appreciation for my religion versus your lack of appreciation for it. I came to it after many years exploring my spirituality so I can’t expect anyone else to agree with my personal journey or it’s result.

But, if we’re going to have a reasonable discussion, reason must be at the center of it. Consequently, using scare tactics, false premises, or flat out lies simply doesn’t carry the conversation forward. So, we can certainly disagree without being disagreeable.

Grimalkin, I have no idea if you’re calling the LDS Church a cult, religion in general cultish or exactly what you’re trying to say. I was a psychology major with philosophy major and you pose a number of hypotheses, none of which are supported by anything that I could accept as authoritative.

Or, is this your personal opinion? If so, it should be expressed as such and not hidden behind sweeping generalizations without substance.

But, ok, I’ll bite. When I joined the LDS Church, what was my “investment” that was so large? I looked into the Church for about 3 months after having spent approximately 10 years on a spiritual journey. I hadn’t given the Church any money, nor had they asked for any. I did some reading, sort of like studying in college. It’s necessary to figure out what the doctrine is all about and if it fits with what I believe but hardly any different than the time I spent looking at various forms of Protestanism, Catholicism, Buddhism or a number of other religions, or are these cults, too?

Then, let me get this right. I joined the Church because I wanted to be in on the “secret”? Exactly, which secret are we talking about, the one about God, Jesus, the Holy Ghost, aaaahhhh, you’re going to have to help me out here. By the way, I didn’t join any stupid clubs when I was a kid, I wasn’t that interested in belonging just for the sake of belonging. I was more of the type that figured that any club that would have me I probably didn’t want to join.

Now, the imagination part completely lost me, sure I get it in the movies and, in fact, I agree the scariest movies aren’t the ones with the crazy guy slashing everyone, it’s the thing you see out of the corner of your eye but you never really get to see clearly on focus upon.

Now, that next sentence sounds an awful lot like cognitive dissonance but you don’t have the theory just right. I don’t have sufficient time or space to deal with the concept so let’s use Wikipedia: “A powerful cause of dissonance is when an idea conflicts with a fundamental element of the self-concept, such as “I am a good person” or “I made the right decision.” The anxiety that comes with the possibility of having made a bad decision can lead to rationalization, the tendency to create additional reasons or justifications to support one’s choices. A person who just spent too much money on a new car might decide that the new vehicle is much less likely to break down than his or her old car. This belief may or may not be true, but it would likely reduce dissonance and make the person feel better. Dissonance can also lead to confirmation bias, the denial of disconfirming evidence, and other ego defense mechanisms.”

So, the theory is that once I choose something that appears to be consistent with “who I am”, I will try to remove any aspect of dissonance that suggests my decision could be wrong. I won’t dispute that someone could do this but I’m not going to continue paying 10% of my income every year just to keep my psyche in line if I don’t believe in it with every fabric of my being.

So, frankly, that doesn’t make a very convincing argument.

The last paragraph appears to be you venting. Vent away by all means.

@Grimalkin:

You said that religions are not the same as cults. I would like to hear your explanation of the differences. How are religions (particularly smaller/localised religions like Mormonism) not cults/like cults?

I did not say religions are not the same as cults. I said that identifying similarities they share is not the same as proving they are the same as cults.

I then allowed that depending on your definition of cults (which is a word so broadly defined as to have almost no meaning) it could be a cult.

Then I chose a definition of “cult” that you might agree with, and illustrated how Mormonism is not the same as that.

So, my original post had everything you need except the power to grant you better reading comprehension abilities.

Skeptimal,

I don’t disagree with most of your last point. However, there are certain aspects of every religion that are “sacred” or private. Would it be okay if we start putting television cameras in a Catholic church’s confessional? I’m sure that would seriously decrease the number of Catholics showing up, right?

Or, how about if we film every Protestant minister’s marriage counseling for couples? That work for you, it doesn’t for me.

What happens in a LDS temple is one of the most sacred things that occurs in my religion. For those who enter unprepared, it is strange and, potentially, off-putting. For someone prepared and in need of the spirit, it can be a godsend.

I don’t find it amusing at all that HBO gets to decide what part of my religion is not sacred enough or private enough to be aired on TV, please see my prior post on their motivaion – $$$. I’m just odd that way, like most religious people that I know.

Dakulis Says:

I am LDS, active and a former bishop.

I do not believe that Jews would appreciate people coming in and filming everything that goes on in their religion or Catholics having all their conferences for bishops and church leaders filmed.

Hi Dakulis…

I am curious, and need to get this really, really clear… did the producers of Big Love actually intrude in an LDS church and film them?

If so, then I wholeheartedly concur, that would be truely offensive.

But I don’t have a problem with having actors portray them, even in their conferences or their sacred rites.

Of interest, television never threatens to do so but Mormons are easy targets because they’re not “mainstream”, whatever that means.

Catholic confession is also private. But that doesn’t mean that fictional tv shows aren’t allowed to portray their fictional characters confessing. And tv shows, movies and plays deal with the catholic priest sex-abuse scandal, so I don’t really buy the notion that your religion is the only one Hollywood would dare attack.

So, if some family members were excluded, it was at the request of the family, how exactly is that the Church’s fault?

Dakulis, thanks for addressing my specific instance. The fault, as I see it, is then it becomes the churchmember part of the family using the church to distance the non-church part of the family. T’wasn’t the first nor the last time in history that a family was kept apart by religious differences. I don’t have to approve of that, do I? Does that make me intolerant?

First, what goes on in a temple involves only people that choose to be there, it is sacred, it causes no harm to anyone, it affects no one else’s personal or property rights and it breaks no laws.

I guess I respect that individuals have a certain right to expect privacy.

Do institutions? And is that privacy to be maintained for the rest of their lives, even if they leave the organization?

I mean, at some level some ex-mormons have decided to tell their story. If one writes an autobiography, who “owns” those moments in their life, them or the Church?

I notice I got jumped on right away for my poor analogy, even when I tried to specifically state that I wasn’t specifically attacking catballou’s view here, I just want to understand how this should properly function, in his view.

I’m also not blind to the number of LDS members posting here specifically asking nicely for their privacy to be supported.

What I’m looking for is a well-reasoned dividing line as to what exact things about which religious rules should be followed by people who aren’t members of that religion. And if this falls into a completely secular analogy, can I be pointed to it.

If there is some kind of “you can forever expect privacy for this secular thing” and even MORMONS would stand up for that privacy, because this is a totally shared societal value… I can’t think of it. Anyone got a “good for the gander” thing on the secular side of the fence that they can point me to?

I’m somewhat surprised by how many people are claiming that if Big Love replicates the temple ceremonies, it’s automatically for shock value or for people to laugh at. There are lots of films and programs that depict the rites of various different religions, and it’s not automatically assumed that the depiction is disrespectful.
I’m also wondering how having outsiders know what goes on in the temple makes it less sacred. I understand that people have experiences they might not necessarily want to share because they’re private. But someone else creating a fictional presentation of what your experiences are based on doesn’t seem to me to actually invade your privacy. I have had transcendent experiences while sitting alone on a beach at night. Does that mean that if a filmmaker comes up with a character who has similar experiences under similar circumstances, I can get mad that they trampled on something I value?
I believe it’s important to be respectful, to try to understand, to get your facts right, to not demean the people involved, to follow their rules when on their turf – but respect doesn’t mean complete deference. I think it’s one thing for individuals to say “We don’t want to tell you about this,” and quite another for them to say “You have no right to know this; we own not only our own experiences but those of everyone associated with this subject.” I’m fine if someone refuses to participate in something because it goes against their beliefs; not fine with them claiming that their beliefs have some kind of binding claim over others who haven’t agreed to them.

Siamang,

Ok, so we can agree, then, if it was actually a camera crew going into the temple and filming, that would offend you? But, an inaccurate representation by a comedy show making light of a temple ceremony, something that is sacred to me and millions of others, that doesn’t offend you? That makes perfect sense.

I believe your second point is a fair one, the producers are not going into a LDS temple and filming, I thought that was pretty well understood. Moreover, I haven’t seen the show, and won’t, so I am merely assuming that they intend to show these scenes merely for “sensationalism” not to attempt to portray the very spiritual and important part that the temple plays in my religion.

However, you miss the point of my examples. This isn’t someone portraying someone doing a funny confession, which I agree has been done in TV and movies, many times. This is a show doing something solely to rub a religion’s nose in it with no purpose but to offend and hold something up to ridicule, something that I hold to be very sacred. Consequently, my analogy was to use an actual confession because it is more similar to what HBO is doing here, I’m sorry if you don’t understand the distinction, maybe I wasn’t clear enough.

As for your particular family situation, I was simply pointing out how something like that occurs. I was fortunate enough to have several funerals where non-member family members were fully included, participated, prayed and had a wonderful experience. I am truly sorry that you didn’t get to enjoy such an experience at your uncle’s funeral. Unfortunately, one of the most important principles of any religion involves the fact that people are imperfect and, hopefully, we learn from our mistakes. I hope that whatever pain you experienced that you have had a chance to talk with your family members and work through that. If not, please give it a shot, those can be precious moments of reconciliation.

As for what ex-Mormons do with their experiences, I cannot control that and the Church cannot either. I can’t tell you for certain what I would do if I left the Church but I don’t believe that I would feel comfortable with a “tell all” about my temple experiences, even then they would be sacred and private to me. To each his own, I guess.

But, what we’re talking about here, isn’t news, it isn’t a report about facts involving the Church, similar to your analogy of reports about priest abuse in the Catholic church, this is a TV comedy wandering into extremely sacred material for laughs, for $$$ and at the expense of many people who hold these experiences sacred.

If a Church member does something wrong, it will be reported and held up to scrutiny but that is not what we’re talking about here.
I’m not sure how else I can make the distinction for you.

I’m sorry if I was too strong in my initial comments, they were not intended to be offensive.

Of course Temple ceremonies are sacred, private ordinances. Jesus Christ commanded that they be such. Note the similiaities in “Big Love” to First Century temple ceremonies: (Do you still want to mock and disparage them?)

Baptism:
Early Christian churches, practiced baptism of youth (not infants) by immersion by the father of the family. Afterwards, the youth was dressed in a white robe, and anointed with oil and given a new name. This ritual was sacred and not open to non-family members to view. The local congregation had a lay ministry. An early Christian Church has been re-constructed at the Israel Museum, and the above can be verified. http://www.imj.org.il/eng/exhibitions/2000/christianity/ancientchurch/structure/index.html

Baptism for Deceased Ancestors is referenced in 1 Corinthians 15:29 “Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? Why are they then baptized for the dead?” Baptism for deceased ancestors was practiced by Marcionites, an early Christian group, Orthodox Christian groups; Coptics (who even practice it today on occasion); Ethiopian Christians, called Abyssinians; and early Roman Catholics, as reported by Augustine and others.
The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) continues baptism and a lay ministry as taught by Jesus’ Apostles.

• Sacred Ordinances
Early Christians were persecuted for keeping their esoteric practices sacred and prohibiting non-Christians from witnessing them.

Hippolytus (ca. A.D. 200) made a statement “But if there is any other matter which ought to be told, let the bishop impart it secretly to those who are communicated. He shall not tell this to any but the faithful and only after they have first been communicated. This is the white stone of which John said that there is a new name written upon it which no man knows except him who receives. ”

Clement of Alexandria claimed to possess a secret tradition of knowledge (Greek gnosis) handed down from the Savior to the Apostles and on to Clement himself by way of certain of his teachers. “Clement represents this secret discipline to which he gives the title of gnosis, or gift of knowledge, as having been conferred by our Lord, after his resurrection, on James the Just, John, and Peter, by whom it was communicated to the other Apostles; and that by these the treasure was committed to the seventy disciples, of whom Barnabas was one. . . the secret discipline thus instituted by Christ was familiar to those who had been his masters and preceptors,”

“The multitude professing Christianity were therefore divided by them into the “profane,” or those who were not yet admitted to the mysteries, and the “initiated,” or faithful and perfect. . . and as none were permitted to be present at these “mysteries,” as they were termed, save those whose admission into the fellowship of the church was perfect and complete, so likewise was it expected that, as a matter of duty, the most sacred silence should be observed in regard to everything connected with the celebration of them, and nothing whatever relating thereto to be committed to the ears of the profane.”

• 40 Days Between Christ’s Crucifixion and Ascension

In Sophia Jesu Christi: “After He had risen from the dead, when they came, the twelve disciples and seven women who had followed him as disciples, into Galilee. .. where they were now at a loss in regard to the true nature of the universe, the Plan of Salvation, the Holy Providence, the excellency of the Powers, about all that the Redeemer did with them, the secrets of the Holy Plan of Salvation, then there appeared to them the Redeemer. “

• Instruction to Adam

In the Apocalypse of Adam, it is related that mystical instruction was given by three heavenly messengers to Adam. Jesuit scholar George MacRae summarizes:’ Father Adam explains how in the Fall he and Eve lost their glory and knowledge. Through the revelation imparted to Adam by three heavenly visitors, however, this knowledge is passed on to Seth and his seed.”

An Egyptian Christian book, the First Book of Adam and Eve describes their posture in prayer: “Then Adam and Eve raised their hands unto God, praying and entreating Him to drive Satan away from them”

• Preliminary Ordinances
Cyril of Jerusalem gave the most complete description of Preliminary Ordinances (Initiatory Rites) (translated into English in 1951 ). [Even though Cyril was a Bishop in the Roman Church about 350 A.D., his views on the Trinity and original sin are similar to LDS’ today.] He wrote five catechetical (kat-i-ket-i-kuhl) lectures for the newly baptized. “As soon, then, as ye entered, ye put off your tunic; and this was an image of putting off the old man with his deeds. . . ye were naked; in this also imitating Christ, who was naked on the Cross, and by His nakedness put off from Himself the principalities and powers, and openly triumphed over them on the tree. . . truly ye bore the likeness of the first-formed Adam, in the garden, and was not ashamed. Then, , ye were anointed with exorcised oil, from the very hairs of your head to your feet, and were made partakers of the good olive-tree, Jesus Christ. ”

“The ointment is symbolically applied to thy forehead and thy other senses, and while thy body is anointed with the visible ointment, thy soul is sanctified by the Holy and life-giving Spirit. And ye were first anointed on the forehead . . . Then on your ears: that ye might receive the ears which are quick to hear the Divine Mysteries. . . Then on the nostrils. . Afterwards on your breast,; that having put on the breast-plate of righteousness, ye may stand against the wiles of the devil. . . (see http://sacred-texts.com/chr/ecf/207/2070037.htm )

“The initiate received a new name after the clothing.

• The Endowment

Male initiates wore mitre or priestly cap “much as though a sphere were to be divided through the centre, and one half thereof to be put upon the head… It has no peak at the top, nor does it cover the whole head as far as the hair extends, but leaves about a third of the front part of the head uncovered. It is attached by a band,.”

“Sacred vestments include a girdle or sash and a robe worn over the shoulders. The robe is worn on different shoulders, depending on the degree within the priesthood.”

“All those who were admitted to the inner sights of the mysteries had a formula or pass-word. .
“Come not with thy wrists extended, or thy fingers spread; but make thy left hand a throne for the right, as for that which is to receive a King. And having hollowed thy palm, receive the Body of Christ” (Eucharist and baptism were part of esoteric ordinances in 2nd & 3rd Century Christianity.)
• The Prayer Circle
“A prayer is offered by the [officiator] in behalf of those in the circle and the others attending which included the giving of thanks, petition for blessing to be pronounced upon the Eucharist, and petition ‘for the common peace of the Churches, for the welfare of the world, for kings, for soldiers and allies; for the sick, for the afflicted, and in a word, for all who stand in need of succor ”
“The names of those to be prayed for were written on parchments, which from being folded twice, were called diptychs”
In the Stromata, Clement of Alexandria, in describing the prayer circle, says “So also we raise the head and lift the hands to heaven. ” The First Century Odes of Solomon explains that this posture was adopted in imitation of the Savior on Calvary: “I stretched forth my hands and sanctified my Lord: For the extension of my hands in His sign; And my expansion is the upright tree.”
3rd Nephi Ch 19 Jesus appeared to his 12 disciples and the multitude in the form of a prayer circle. – –
• The Veil

In the Gospel of Philip, the Savior gave various “seals” and passwords necessary to ascend to the highest heaven: “Here at the veil are imparted the secret “seals” and “pass-words”, which allow free passage through each of their spheres”
“In one narrative, the Primeval Man is drawn up to heaven by celestial messengers: .. The Living Spirit extended his right hand to Primeval Man. The latter seized it and thus was drawn up out of the depths of the world of darkness. . . He was returned to the paradise of light, his Celestial home, where his kin awaited him.”
• Celestial Marriage
Egyptian Christians considered Celestial marriage to be their most holy mystery. The Gospel of Philip states that “those who have united in the bridal chamber will no longer be separated” “One receives them [the male and female powers] from the mirrored bridal chamber.” “if anyone becomes a son of the bridal chamber, he will receive the light.” “The heavenly man has many more sons than the earthly man. If the sons of Adam are many, although they die, how much more the sons of the perfect man, they who do not die but are always begotten.”

“Clement (of Alexandria) believed that marriage and procreation are an intrinsic and positive part of God’s plan for the human race. In this way, the human being becomes the image of God, by cooperating in the creation of another human being. The married man who must devote himself to the administration of a household is a more faithful reflection of God’s own providential care.”
Clement felt that marriage “was good practice for life as a god”

The Gospel of Philip taught that the existence of the world depends on the mystery of marriage: “Great is the mystery of marriage! For without it the world would not have existed. How the existence of the world depends on man, and the existence of man on marriage.

• Rejection of Esoteric Ordinances (part of the Apostasy) xxv
Various reasons for the rejection of Esoteric Ordinances during the Fourth Century:
– Nicene Creed became antithetical to Theosis and Divinization
– Emperor Constantine couldn’t condone secrecy which might organize against state’s authority.
-2nd Century fragmentation of Christian authority
-Hellenism – Greek thought based on Socrates’ rationalism
-Roman (intellectual) fight against Gnosticism (esoteric) resulted in the Roman Church’s burning of the Apocrypha
-Rejection of Jewish esoteric traditions xxv

• Conclusion

Writings from the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Nag Hammadi Codices show that for two centuries after Jesus Christ, certain religious groups practiced rituals that included anointing patrons and the receiving of celestial robes. Teaching about the use of secret names and tokens took place along with passing through the temple veil into the presence of God. Revelations of the secrets of creation and the exaltation and deification of individuals were presented. Ascension into various levels of heaven representing different degrees of glory was a part of the ceremony. The need for moral purity was taught, and Eternal Marriages were performed.

If Joseph Smith taught a number of esoteric doctrines that were unknown to have existed in the early church during his time, but which research and uncovered documents (during the 1950 to 1970 period) now show were part of early Christianity, one has to conclude that he was inspired of God. Yale literary scholar Harold Bloom, wrote a book called The American Religion, in which he writes of Joseph Smith: “I can only attribute to his genius or heavenly intervention his uncanny recovery of many elements in ancient Jewish theurgy that had ceased to be available either to Judaism or to Christianity, and that had survived only in esoteric traditions unlikely to have touched Smith directly.” The Church which Joseph Smith restored is the original Church of Christ, as revealed in the many documents of the first three centuries after Christ .

Dakulis said: “This is a show doing something solely to rub a religion’s nose in it with no purpose but to offend and hold something up to ridicule, something that I hold to be very sacred. Consequently, my analogy was to use an actual confession because it is more similar to what HBO is doing here…”

I disagree with you here on a couple of points. I don’t think that the privacy of an individual confession is the same thing as the institutional privacy of an organization.

I also don’t think the sole purpose of HBO is to belittle the LDS Church. Even if that were the case, however, I think that should be protected free speech. We have seen in Islam what happens when a group begins to feel that their religion is above criticism.

And the Mormon Church has a long way to go before it faces the kind of ridicule and hostility that non-theists face on a regular basis.

I was taught that if you want to know about welding, ask a welder. If you want to know about diamonds, ask a jewler or diamond cutter. The same goes for any religious group, LDS (I am), Protestant, Catholic, Baptist, Aethiest, or any other. For those who are really wanting to know the truth and not just looking to poke holes in the boat, go to http://www.mormon.org or http://www.lds.org. These are the official websites of the Church and if you are brave enough, request a copy of the Book of Mormon and read it, or ask for missionaries to come to your home. You can also chat live with an official representative of the Church on http://www.mormon.org and make the requests there.

As a practicing member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and as one who regularly participates in temple ceremonies, I am pretty bothered about this.

First, as people have said before, there really isn’t anything horrifying about the ceremony. It’s just that it is considered very sacred for millions of people around the world. There really is very little about our religion that isn’t disclosed to the public. The public is even allowed to have a guided tour through newly built temples, before the have been dedicated to God. So it’s really just a matter of respect and common decency. To me, it’s fairly disgusting that anyone would exploit a group of people and call it “entertainment.”

Second, many members of the LDS faith continually battle stereotypes, misunderstandings, lies, and prejudices about their faith. Growing up and still to this day, I’ve had my church buildings picketed and vandalized on a regular basis. I would also get “uninvited” to parties when I was in high school because I was “one of those Mormons.” And if you’re thinking I grew up in some small town- I grew up in Southern California. To have an entire show dedicated to polygamy, which only furthers those misunderstandings and lies, is very frustrating for people who have been battling those prejudices for much too long. I just don’t see how showing this does anything but hurt people.

Also- there was someone that mentioned about not being able to attend a part of their uncle’s funeral- I wanted to say that there are no funerals held in the temple, which is the only place that you wouldn’t have been able to go as someone who wasn’t LDS. So there was no reason that anyone should have been discluded from any portion of the funeral, especially if it was held in the church. Church buildings are open to everyone. It probably wasn’t what you thought it was, or someone amongst that group of members of the church did something they shouldn’t have. I’ve never attended a funeral where something like that happened and have never heard of that happening, so I doubt it’s a common thing.

“And the Mormon Church has a long way to go before it faces the kind of ridicule and hostility that non-theists face on a regular basis.”

The LDS Church has faced persecution since day one. It still stands, to this day, the only religious group in the history of the United States to have an extermination order out against it by the American government. Our early members were murdered (in once instance raped and massacred), tarred and feathered, and driven from their homes more than once. And though violence against members has dropped, vandalism, picketing, and threats happen all the time. So we don’t have as long of a way to go as you might think.

I would be much more willing to let Mormons act as they please in their ‘sacred’ ceremonies had not those same ceremonies been foisted upon me by the pressure of the church and family members. It is both expected and encouraged for male members to attend the temple at around 18/19 before they leave to serve on a mission. The social stigma from church members levied at those who decline to do so is staggering. This is something that only former members truly understand, current members downplay, and the rest of the world passes by without noticing for the most part.

Prior to entering the temple for the first time, a member is told next to nothing about what will actually and physically take place there all the while being told again and again that it will be THE MOST special and THE MOST sacred experience of their lives. What you get instead is a violation of your privacy, your individuality, and your intelligence in the form of a movie and odd rituals that culminate in group chanting around an altar before passing through “the veil” (death) into heaven…but only if you provide the proper handshakes and passwords.

If you swallow the ceremony, then you prove yourself a loyal follower. If you try to talk about it afterwards, then you’re encouraged not to because it’s too ‘sacred.’ If you don’t buy into the pseudo-mysticism, then you’re branded an “oath breaker” by the loyal followers. This last always baffled me because the ‘oaths’ that are supposedly broken are only given to you when you are already there, with your family present–everyone watching–and then they spring it on you in all its strange and sacred glory.

I understand that active Mormons/LDS will defend what they hold sacred, but they need to realize that not everyone does–including a large portion of their own declining membership. The day the temples are opened up to ALL of their god’s children and are no longer shrouded in secrecy and deception will be a step in the right direction for the Mormon church.

feel free to condemn me or question me at oldbeezle@gmail.com or check out exmormon.org for more candid descriptions of life as a mormon. Don’t just listen to the salesmen to research the product.

I am an active member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I attend the temple every week. It is my place of refuge, my place to pray, a place where spiritual ordinances take place. I crave the peace that is found there. It renews my spirit every time I attend. The world is so hard and full of wickedness. I love the privilege of living a life as close as I can to Godliness that I can attend the temple. It is a privilege members of the church strive for. Those who go are not perfect, but they love the Savior so much that they live their lives in a way that provides them this privilege. This is not something that we take lightly. In the world we live in this type of life takes diligence and absolute conviction! We strive to be wholesome in body and spirit, we strive to be giving to our fellow men, and we strive to dedicate everything in our lives to God.

I understand that there are those who would want to understand what takes place within what we call a “sacred place”, and the temples are so beautiful, I can only imagine the intrigue. I wanted to understand as well before I was of age to go, but again, this was a privilege I needed to be spiritually ready for. By filming productions like this it belittles everything that we believe as sacred, everything that we strive for. There are those in the world who simply do not care what it belittles. I am disappointed that Tom Hanks is one of them. Nonetheless, I ask HBO to reconsider their course. I realize this kind of stuff sells. What a sad place we live in when we will sell our souls so ignorantly. Whether you believe in the church or not, can you not see that this act is wrong? Whether you hate Mormons because of there beliefs or accept them because you have no reason to hate them, even if you don’t know anyone that is Mormon, please stand up for what is right!

For me, this is about respect. There is too little respect for religion in this country. Too little respect for those that choose to believe in something higher and greater. People have lost their sense of respect.

Why should religion be respected in the first place? If there’s a good reason for this, I’ve yet to hear it. Maybe the Mormons on this thread ought to answer that first before decrying our lack of “respect”.

How do they justify the polygamists being in the temple anyway? That’s the first thing that comes to my mind- Polygs would NEVER be allowed in a temple if their religious leaders knew they were polygamists. They’d be excommunicated. Polygamy = NO NO in the Mormon church. Do they cover that in the storyline of the show- how this family must keep their secret from the church? Did they just lie their asses off during the interviews needed to get a temple recommend?

I’m sure polygamists in reality HAVE attended the temple (and lied about their lifestyle to do it), but that can’t be at all common.

I am LDS (Mormon) and I have been through the temple. I want to explain that I don’t find what is being depicted embarrassing or upsetting. What is taught by the ceremony and ordinances only brings me a greater understanding of my savior Jesus Christ. What I find offensive is that something that I hold sacred is being demeaned by a public display of something that is not secret (you can see most of the temple ceremony on the internet now days — also offensive); but sacred. There is a difference. When Moses went up to Mount Sinai to commune with God he was instructed to remove his shoes in an act of respect and dignity for the presence of the Lord. That is why we do not speak of it outside the temple. It is due to respect for what we feel is God’s. Why should you respect religion? For the same reason I respect your beliefs. You have the right to believe what you feel is right. I also have that right. I do not have the right to ridicule or disrespect you for your beliefs. You also do not have that right to ridicule or disrespect my beliefs. Belief in a god or belief in no god is still belief.

It appears a lot of LDS are coming here to comment without ever having seen the show. I’ve seen the entire series and let me assure you it does definitely make the distinction between polygamous sects and mainstream.

Although there are some humorous episodes, I think it is a thoughtfully produced show. The characters are not caricatures and their faith is not mocked. Although I am an atheist and do not accept the concept of religious faith, I can respect other people who do. I think Big Love treats the faith of their characters, mainstream and not, respectfully.

I know that I now view the beliefs of the LDS and polygamists as no more crazy then any other religion. For those who believe in a religion, they probably have a more favorable view, too.

I’m on the fence about whether they should show the sacred ceremonies. Initially, I did not think they should as I can understand why it would seem offensive to someone in the church.

However, the argument that Catholic confessions are portrayed in a fictional manner without an uproar from that church does give me pause.

I will certainly watch and I hope that it is treated as respectfully as other issues have been on the show in the past.

In the interest of factual accuracy, I should mention that my previous comment had errors. Well, it was not so much incorrect as it was out of date. Since 2005, the Washing and Annointing Ordinance has been changed to something much less shocking. See http://packham.n4m.org/temples.htm. Also, I would not assume that these practices are universally the same among all Mormons.

I do not condone, by the way, mocking of this ceremony. I think it is all too easy to mock, and I don’t like being mocked myself. On the other hand, I have a really hard time feeling any sympathy for the need to keep something sacred, and therefore mostly secret. There is simply no analogy to anything outside religion. Personally, I would be much more concerned that they might get some of their facts wrong, thus misinforming the public.

“the church defends the secrecy of these details passionately, claiming that they need to be confined within the temple due to their highly sacred nature.” Your SOURCE didn’t even get two sentences into the first paragraph before HE LIED. The endowment and marriage ceremonies are on file at the Library of Congress and have been there for decades. Get the facts or get bent. Moron.

I think it is rather disingenuous to say that only those who belong to the LDS church, headquartered in Salt Lake, are Mormons. Those polygamists believe in the Book of Mormon just as much, and the B of M is just as much a part of the history of the Reorganized LDS church, the Church of Temple Lot, and the Strangites beliefs and foundation. The fact that the Salt Lake City Mormons are the biggest group gives them no exclusive right to that name. Should the biggest group of Christians claim exclusivity to the name, how would you feel? Are only Catholics Christians? You claim to be Christians because of your belief in Christ (rightly so, IMO). By the same path, these other groups that believe in the Book of Mormon are just as “Mormon” as you. Do unto others.

Good luck, and it is TV. It doesn’t seem to respect what is sacred to others, but it doesn’t seem to be as mocking and sacrilegious as a South Park episode. Having your freedom of speech requires that you give the same to others, no matter how poor their taste (in your opinion).

And Cat- You said that things should be mocked if you think they are dumb. That just isn’t nice. Maybe they should be exposed, brought to light, and definitely questioned. Belittling people you don’t agree with is a sign that your side is not as strong as you would wish (not saying that is true for this case. Don’t mock, question, investigate, and think about instead. It wins over peopel on the other side and is just nicer

Last sentences should read.

Don’t mock. Question, investigate, and think about instead. It wins over people and is just nicer.

Some things in life are only as special as you treat them: you open the door for your girlfriend, you leave flowers on your grandfather’s grave, you wax your new car, etc.

So if someone wants to hurt you, they find what is special to you and attack it. Teenagers do it to their parents, bullies do it to their victims, and apparently HBO does it to religions.

I am a little concerned with how much the LDS community is reacting to Big Love because it will only encourage the bullies. Once they know they can get a reaction out of you, they will push the button again and again.

Look at how this depiction is being done, and the venue, and the marketing. None of it points to a sincere attempt to educate or persuade – controversy is the headline.

They are doing it because they know it is special, and they know it will hurt – not in the painful-medicine way, but like a slap to her face, a piss on the grave, a key to the car.

If you are the type of person that wants to tune in to be part that, what are you saying about yourself?

I can’t begin to worry about Mormons hurt feelings because their “sacred” rites, rituals, garments and other religious trappings are being broadcast. Considering the heinous lack of respect they’ve shown other people, LGBTs in particular, they have no right to demand that their religion be respected.

Buffy,
We didn’t make prop.8 we just practiced our right to vote as did many Catholics,Jews, Blacks, Asians and Hispanics who made up the majority of the vote. Maybe you should find out what is really making you so angry…

What a terrific blog post (and interesting comments)!

I’m a former member of the LDS church and my family and friends who are Mormon have been VERY upset over Big Love in general from its inception. This episode, even if it just shows Barb in temple costume, will be very upsetting for most Mormons who take their faith seriously.

I think presenting anything related to the temple is a good thing. Part of the LDS church’s strategy for hooking potential members is that it doesn’t give them complete information up front, but gives it to them a little at a time.

Before I went through the temple, I was given very little relevant information. If I had been told clearly what I would have been participating in, I wouldn’t have gone (some of the objectionable practices have since been eliminated).

If information is more widely available, potential members can make a more-informed decision from the beginning. I’m all for that.

In the temple ceremony, the participants are commanded to keep it “secret” not sacred. The “sacred” explanation is given by church members that don’t have the cajones to stand up for their beliefs and tell outsiders that they have taken blood oaths to keep it secret.

(former temple recommend holder, returned missionary, married in the temple.)

I can’t believe HBO big love is doing this. The Mormons have made it clear that this is something sacred to them.

What will happen is they’ll completely miss represent what really goes on while spitting in the face of something a religious group holds sacred.

Unbelievable that they are doing this. I just DO NOT get this. Tom Hanks where is the sense of decency to the Mormons?

I find it so sad that other people not of our faith can’t just understand that there are some things so close to your heart, that to share it with the outside world, not only degrades it; but makes it less special and less important to you. I know there are many things that people not of the LDS faith would not like broadcasted all over television. Take celebrities. Every part of their private lives is sloshed and degraded and down-played on the internet, on TV and on the radio. I don’t think that most people would like having a private, intimate moment with their spouse or significant other published and written all over the internet! I hope that others will understand this, and that if they want to learn more about the temple, all they have to do is ask an LDS friend our check out the LDS website. They don’t need to think its some secret religious rite. Its not secret–its sacred and special.

I can only imagine the uproar if the Dome of the rock was shown on TV and what goes on inside. Non Muslims are not allowed in. Why no uproar with Mormons? Hollywood claims they want everything fare yet they dont practice what they preach.

Oh boy, the Mormons found Friendly Atheist and all jumped in! I wonder where it was linked from.

What goes on in the temple is very toned down compared with what it used to be. The endowment ceremony once involved stripping completely naked and being touched in several places by a temple worker (of the opposite sex, of course). What is absolutely hilarious is that Mormons who’ve gone through the temple more recently would not believe this if you told them.

The changes that have been made to the endowment ceremony over the years are absolutely fascinating. They’ve made it less sexist, less strange, and less frightening for a first-timer.

Parts of the endowment ceremony that were removed:
– An oath to avenge the blood of the prophets upon the nation (the U.S.) [removed 1919-1927]
– Agreeing to graphic penalties for sharing the “signs & tokens” of the temple: slitting one’s throat and disemboweling one’s stomach.
– Reference to Satan’s having black skin. [removed 1970s]
– Syllables purported to having meaning in the Adamic language. [removed 1990]
– Women no longer covenant to obey the law of their husbands. Language which faults Eve for initiating the Fall is dropped. Many references to Adam are replaced with references to Adam and Eve. [removed 1990] – In 2005, participants began fully clothing themselves in the garment before entering the washing room, thus eliminating the final vestiges of ritual nudity (which had been gradually curtailed since the 1920s). Water and oil are now applied to the head only, not to multiple parts of the body.

**What’s sad is that eventually, the endowment ceremony will contain nothing even remotely alarming.** Mormons don’t know their own history. If they realized just how racist, sexist, fraudulent and ridiculous their church was in the past, they would leave mormonism in droves.

I just heard about this upcoming episode on Big Love today. In fact, I’ve never even heard of the show. Parts of the official church response where quoted in the local nightly news and so I was curious what was really going on. I happened to come across this posting from a quick google search and I have read all the posts with some interest.

I personally am not worried about what will be aired on the show. I won’t watch it, because I don’t have cable, and I will probably forget that it was even supposed to happen soon. I mostly wanted to post because nobody has linked in the LDS church’s official response to the upcoming episode. The Publicity Dilemma.

If you want to know the church’s official response, as opposed to others’ personal feelings, please read it.

Mormons aren’t polygamists, they haven’t been for over 100 years. Big Love doesn’t portray mormons in a proper light. They used to claim that they were portraying the FLDS group, however this new temple stunt shows that they were lying.

Oh well, just goes to show that nothing is sacred anymore. Not sex, not marriage, not children not life and especially not religious beliefs.

Oh mynonexistent gods, I can’t believe the arrogance, pearl-clutching, and cognitive dissonance the “devout” here are capable of.
Let’s see, “our rites are so much more meaningful and sacred than your rites, you can’t possibly understand.” Really? You think that the ceremonies of the Roman Catholics, Greek Orthodox, etc., are less meaningful to their congregants? My wedding was incredibly meaningful to me, as was my father’s funeral, but I don’t get my panties in a twist when I see weddings and funerals in movies. No one is recreating your particular ceremony, so it isn’t an intimate moment of your life. It’s a ceremony that, by your account, millions of people undergo.
Speaking of which, some of you are simultaneously bragging about the wide distribution of the LDS and whining about being persecuted. Get your story straight. You seem to be doing just fine, but you like the victim image.
A major source of strife between early Mormons and others was polygamy, and the church’s leaders were eventually happy to disavow that fundamental tenet. Way to stick up for your principles!

And then we have the “No True Scotsman” argument: “Real” Mormons don’t act this way. As someone else noted, if they think they’re Mormon, they are.

And my favorite, fatwa envy! “You’re picking on us, but you wouldn’t treat the Muslims that way!” Yes, but HBO isn’t interested in showing respect to Islam. They’re interested in avoiding acts of terrorism. The Danes don’t regret publishing those cartoons; they were responding to threats and standing up for their status as a free country. Now you’re whining because you’re not considered a threat.
I started this thread as sympathetic to the notion of respecting the rites of the LDS, but after reading these weak arguments (not to mention the pointless “testifying”), I’ve changed my mind.

It really isn’t about something secret.
If it were secret, then we’d build underground building, or something else to hide it.
The temple rites are sacred, and people should be prepared before they take part in them.
Showing them on air is just another example of people’s insensitivity.
Would you appreciate somebody broadcasting you and your significant other have intimate relations on national television?
No, probably not.
That’s sacred, the fact that it happens isn’t secret.

I think its great that theres a group of people who are ignorant of a religion yet discuss so much about it. Those who think they know so much about it, and the temple ceremonies, yet don’t consider the fact the Mormons ARE aware of the temple ceremonies history. Do you honestly think mormons, who already hold the ceremonies as sacred, would somehow be willing to discuss this with you? You’ve got to be missing a few brain cells if you wonder why there are no apologists on this subject. You’ll see what you want to see and hear what you want to hear. Being curious is no crime, I’d like to know what you do behind closed doors too… hilarious really…

Okay – the person who said he wasn’t allowed to attend an uncle’s funeral because it was in some room? That isn’t gonna happen. Funerals just take place in a chapel. Maybe somebody said, “You have to dress in your Sunday best,” or something. But nobody is EVER kept out of a funeral – and there are no roooooms for that.

This is what bothers me, that people jump to conclusions and assume weirdness and whatever. LDS people are not mean, not cruel, not stupid. They have rituals that are sacred and symbolic to remind them that they are supposed to be what pretty much all Christian people are supposed to be – honest, faithful, willing to sacrifice their time and resources to help people, true to their commitments – like marriage – true to their marriage.

It’s not that you’re NOT SUPPOSED TO SEE. It’s that the temple is a place where only people who are really serious about being all those things I listed above go to make promises to God. I know that promises don’t mean much anymore. Every idiot in the world stands up and says “I do” in any conventional wedding ritual but he really means, yeah – until I don’t feel like it, or until I don’t get what I want, or until it gets boring. The Mormon people feel like the promises they make to God – about those things I listed above, remember – that they are REAL promises. And it’s better you don’t make them at all than to make them and lie to God about it, or turn out to be too shallow or selfish or whatever to keep them.

Lying to God, or taking him lightly? Never a great idea. I’m not talking fire and brimstone. I’m talking I believe he’s real and he knows everything and everything belongs to him. So anyway, the Temple is a quiet, clean place where you think hard about what you really want to be in your life, and you make promises – to be honest, to sacrifice your stuff and time to help people, to be true to your husband or wife, and you mean these things. You really mean them.

that’s really basically all it is. Wooooo – it’ll make really, really good TV, won’t it? Try not to fall asleep.

These people are just dis-respectful. It’s like they put a camera in the window of your house and then put your family up on youtube for people to laugh at. Nice.

Oh, sorry. One more thing. Polygamy was practiced over 100 years ago in the church. NEVER since. Those who kept doing it were escorted out of the church (symbolically). There is no secret continence of it. For more years than any of you guys have been alive, LDS people have had NOTHING to do with this practice. There have been polygamists who have lied to get into the temple – that much is true, but it really doesn’t make any sense. If you don’t believe in the actual authority of a church, and you break its rules – which shows you have no respect for it – then why would you want to get inside the heart of the church, like it still counts for you???

Polygamists ARE NOT MORMONS. In fact, some polygamists I’ve heard are very insulted to be associated with what they consider a corrupt form of true religion. So do both groups a favor, and don’t try to make them part of each other.

I’m LDS, an active member, and I attend the temple regularly. I know it’s hard to understand the secrecy in a world that is all about full exposure. Honestly though, the temple ceremony is nothing but words and actions performed in a place that is very special to us. I think the world would find it boring. I was pleasantly surprised my first time when I saw how un-weird it actually was. But to us it’s sacred. It is meaningful and important to us, but I guess the “secrecy” causes overactive minds to go crazy. I hope that this televised breach of privacy bores all these people who are hoping to finally see what goes on in the temples to death. It would seem fitting…there’s really nothing to see, and the things that are there to be gained from it could never be gained from a lazy boy sitting in front of a TV.

“What the hell actually goes on in these ceremonies that I’m not allowed to see? Wouldn’t it be better if these ceremonies were out in the open? It could clear up misunderstandings and allow us to critique what really happens instead of some false caricature.”

I’m inclined to agree with you here. It seems to me that a religious group that wants to be taken seriously, and not treated as a cult, should, uh, I dunno, maybe not act so much like a cult? I definitely want to see this show now. I haven’t gotten HBO for quite some time, and I’m starting to feel a little deprived… Or it could just be the feeling you get from watching American Idol, you know, where your brain starts to self-destruct…

Catballou and Rieux, you nailed it (and thanks for the great Salman Rushdie quote). The claim that this is about ‘sacred’ or ‘private’ rather than ‘secret’ is nonsense, and the arguments given here by Mormons about how this is harmful or damaging to them are ridiculous. It’s totally about secret, and not wanting it known by the uninitiated (I wonder if those who compared it to a fraternity had any idea how much that didn’t help the cause?). I suspect the sheer banality of these secret sacred ceremonies are what the church is most afraid of having revealed.

Many things are considered sacred and private – marriages, birth, baptisms, sex – and we see them portrayed constantly on TV and movies, and in no way does it make it any less sacred or private for people going through those ceremonies. It doesn’t matter how HBO does it, it doesn’t matter why they do it, they are not violating anyone’s privacy by a depiction of a ceremony by actors. Neither does this depiction of the rituals interfere with anyone’s right to worship how they see fit. Are these Mor(m)ons completely incapable of understanding these not-too-difficult concepts?

I don’t think any group on earth so revels in the mantle of victimhood as the religious do. They do so love their self-invented martyrdoms….

I hope they use the pre 1930ish ceremony. The one that made the participants swear an oath of vengeance against the U.S. Gov. up to the fourth generation. Or something like that. How spiritual is that?

I think someone posted something about this on some mormon-lovers website.

All religions should have their silly secret ceremonies shown on TV..then everyone can see what self-serving, money grabber, hate peddling entities these so called churches are.

The LDS Church was the main source of funding against the promotion of equality in California. If a Church that believes in love, brotherhoos, secret handshakes and silly ceremonies can peddle such hatred then it deserves to be mocked ..and hurt where it hurts by being taxed !!

Don’t take this as “mormon-hatred”..I think all theist religions are the same..until they promote their principles of love and equality and non-hatred and exclusion (as well as the barbaric treatment of women and children) then they should be removed of their charitable status and legal protections.

I also thought I’d add that if you really want to see a temple in real life and in a respectful manner- the LDS church holds “open houses” after they are built for the general public to go through. There are several that are “open” right now.

Lindsey F wrote:
“It is most certainly an issue of respect. To Latter-day Saints, the temple, and what occurs inside, are sacred things. I believe that even former members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints should show respect to current members by not sharing with the rest of the world things that are regarded as sacred.”

When I first saw Hemant’s post about upcoming Mormon temple scenes in the TV show Big Love I thought “I wish Lindsey were still contributing to the site”.
I hope that Lindsey F is in fact Mrs. Jensen and that she still drops by Friendly Atheist from time to time.
I agee that there are plenty of things that are sacred – human rights, human lives, human dignity. I don’t agree that dressing up in ceremonial robes and enacting made-up rituals is sacred in any way. It’s all part of the “bells and smells” theatricality that religious organizations have used for centuries to impress their flocks. What is truly amazing is that what worked on the illiterate and uneducated centuries ago works today among some of most sophisticated people in history.
Secret handshakes are not sacred – that sounds a lot like talking into your hat.

1) I’m glad so many Mormons are contributing to Friendly Atheist!
2) I’m amazed at how many of these mormons are trying to concoct a defense around the idea that showing the temple ceremonies is like showing someone have sex (as Sonia said above–and many others: “Would you want a bunch of people watching you have sex?”). It’s almost as if you learned it from the same Sunday school lesson. All of your answers and reasons sound the same. I have yet to hear any real logic used in defense of the secrecy surrounding the Masonic-style rituals. Keep going if you want to build that logical bridge between temple ceremonies and porn. I think you may have a shot because the temple is the only place (besides a doctor’s office) where I have been simultaneously naked and touched by a man. I’m referring to the washing and annointing that takes place prior to the endowment ceremony. The church has since changed this practice so that the initiate is no longer naked during this portion, but dressed in his underwear/garments. Funny that god’s sacred endowment has been changed so very many times. Not funny for those of us who had to endure the abuse of it. So I guess I agree in part–I wouldn’t want my naked body shown on tv while an old man blesses my giblets.

The fact is that most Mormons aren’t aware of their own history. How many wives did Joseph Smith have? Hint–it’s more than just Emma as portrayed in the church propaganda piece playing near temple square. How did Joseph translate the BoM? Hint: it had to do with a magic rock and a hat. Lastly, what was the date that the Melchezidek priesthood was “restored”? Hint–you’re not going to find the answer to this one because the church itself doesn’t know (and no cheating with Aaronic priesthood dates!).

Get the answers to these and you might have a better idea of how much the men in suits in Salt Lake have been avoiding and hiding all these years. Or are those moments in church history simply too sacred to talk about…like the temple? Or do you not talk of them because they truly are embarrassing to you?

By the way, Joseph Smith was killed because he ordered a printing press destroyed that was exposing his secret polygamy practices. It is a fundamental part of the Mormon psyche to hide things from outsiders. That smells like fear to me.

The LDS church has made a statement:

http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/commentary/the-publicity-dilemma

First of all, Siamang Says, ‘Mormon’ funerals don’t take place in some secret room. They’re either at a funeral home or the chaple of a church that all people can go to.

Will there be a huge outrage from LDS people? Well if your expecting us to threaten HBO with powder in envelops or picket them and disrupt them as was done to us becuase of Prop 8, don’t hold your breath. I personally find it extremely disappointing that people just can’t leave it alone. Eli’s sons in the Old Testemant just couldn’t let it go that their father wouldn’t let them past the veil to the Holy of Holies where the Ark and the Covenant rest. So, they stole it and took it into battle only to loose it to their enemies, never to see it again.

Sacred covenants and rituals have been a part of God’s religion since Adam and Eve. We don’t let people take high positions in government until we’ve conducted extensive background checks to ensure they won’t damage the government. Why then is it so odd that God’s church would teach people basic principles first, invite them to accept them, then add to their knowledge and invite them to make covenants when they’re ready. There are so many examples of people who knew a lot of God’s truth and fell away. The more you know about the truth of the Gospel, the more accountable you become for not acting on it.

Unfortunately, as ‘accurate’ as this portrail will try to be, it will be done without the proper intent. Doctrine like this wasn’t intended to be experimented with like this on TV. It was meant to be taught and participated in with true intent and understanding. With the whole picture being presented to the person making the convenants to accept or reject. Without the presence of the spirit and without proper context, HBO will only serve to lay more doubt and confusion on the viewers.

It won’t cause any damage to the LDS church, that’s why not much will be said about it. We will collectively be disappointed that there are so many in a hurry to view a mockery of our faith. We’re not out there making mocumentaries of anybody elses faith and I guarantee we wouldn’t use former members with no regard for their former affiliations to learn insider information to ‘expose’ the ‘truth’ about a religion.

While ‘we claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may’, I am always confused as to why others are so intent on doing something against the ‘Mormons.’

I’ve been hostile to religion for my entire life. I was raised by very tolerant, compassionate, loving parents, but they were both in agreement: religion was the cause of most of the world’s violence. Okay, so fast forward 45 years and I’m channel surfing. I land on Big Love and before I know it . . . I’m hooked. Yes, I’m drawn in by the excesses, the whole over the top polygamist thing. Yes, I know it’s a fiction, but to the Mormons out there, during all the soap-opera drama, I fell in love with the central family in this fiction. These folks let me in to their lives in a way my actual Mormon acquaintances never will. I don’t believe Mormon’s are actually like this. I don’t think you’re polygamists. I know it’s just a show. These characters may be fictional, but their human desires feel real. For the first time, I understand what the celestial family means to Mormons. The sweetness of family (as long as you toe the line). I also get why it was so painful for some of my dear friends to leave the church, even though they hated it, and suffered mightily because of it’s doctrine. Big Love actually opened my eyes to understanding religious fervor a lot better than studying religion and history from an intellectual viewpoint. The producers captured something that spoke to a common human fear and longing. So, while an atheist/naturalistic worldview answers those issues for me, and while I still think that fundamentalist, True Believers of any kind are pretty much the scourge of civilization, Big Love, hyperbolic as it is, has helped me feel the experience of being Mormon. Should they show the temple ceremony? I’m ambivalent on that. I believe the right to swing one’s god ends where someone else’s face begins and the Latter Day Saints are always swinging their god around (missionaries, Prop 8), so they engender a bit of hostility from the gentiles. So, yeah I’m ambivalent about respecting the institution. But now I can say I have some compassion regarding Mormonism, which I really couldn’t say before. I only wish the producers made a Muslim version.

“Mormon Boy” wrote:

If you had a nice family portrait and say everyone did not look so nice or were too perfect would you like it put on TV where people would discuss the looks of your family. This is like a guest going through the bathroom cabinets.

Awwww. Pity the poor Mormon Boy. Someone has defaced a portrait of his family! By depicting beliefs and rituals that are not, er… members… of his… family.

As we’ve told Sonia, my Boy, you don’t actually have moral standing to demand that anyone else kowtow to your overdeveloped senses of personal offense and deference to your ideas and practices. If you can’t tell the difference between a religious ritual and the members of your family, your absurd sensitivities are not our problem.

If the author is a friendly atheist I would hate to meet an unfriendly one. [….] The friendly atheist is not so friendly.

Hilarious! You haven’t spent much time in the atheist blogosphere, have you? If you think Hemant Mehta, of all people, is “unfriendly,” you really should stop surfing this neighborhood of the Internet entirely. Atheists like Greta Christina, Richard Dawkins, and (oh, the humanity!) the cephalopodic demon that is [LIGHTNING STRIKE] P.Z. Myers [CRASHING ORGAN CHORD] would clearly cause your indignant head to implode.

Prithee turn back, young Mormon Boy. This vicinity is far too harsh for thee.

I suspect that since Tom Hanks is a producer of big love and since he rightly feels that Mormons played a large role in passing Prop 8 in California, much to his dismay, he feels a bit of satisfaction urking Mormons with his show.

i love “big love”, but my issue is with the series misrepresenting what the church believes and allows.

i am a member of the lds church and been to the temple before. you have to be living the standards of the church to go to the temple and you have to pass a strict interview where they ask you if you believe in the teachings of the church. if you pass you get a temple recommend pass.

polygamous groups were excommunicated in the first part of the 1900s and thus cannot get a pass to attend the temple. i’ve heard they often try and steal people’s wallets to get passes to try and get into the temple these days.

the family isn’t lds and thus wouldn’t be allowed in. if big love shows the family sneaking into the temple or lying to get in i’m somewhat okay with it–depending on what exactly they show. if it’s just the temple clothes i could care less, but if they include the words and hand stuff i’m never watching again (it’s just disrespectful)

so if they show them getting in to the temple no problem i’m not okay with it. they’ll probably do a flashback to the original wedding, though.

Wow, I am amazed at all of the discussion surrounding this topic. I am also intrigued that the fact that HBO wants to exploit something sacred to members of my religion makes it something the poster of this site wants to watch more of. Thank you to those of you who belong to the LDS church and those who do not who respect us and stand up for our right to practice our religion in a peaceful, spiritual way we feel is appropriate. So much of how I feel has already been said, but all in all, it comes down to for me is a moral issue of respect and misunderstanding. I find it very interesting that when HBO started this show they said numerous times and even in a statement to the LDS church that these characters are not LDS (polygamy was once a practice for some in the church. It is no longer allowed within the church and any who participate in polygamy today are excommunicated from the church) since they could not be active church members today. Then, to gain ratings and sensationalize something I think is beautiful and special, HBO sends their characters (who would not be allowed to enter unless they were members of the LDS church, which HBO said they would not be) to the temple? To me it shows that so many things are now protected – race, gender, even ethnicity, but religion can still be exploited, mocked, and looked down upon for ratings. I am sad that these things will be taken out of context and lead to more misunderstanding against members of my church who as a general rule are good people doing great things. Instead of trying to learn more about our church by watching an ex-Mormons sensationalized view of a sacred ceremony, I would hope you would get to know some real, practicing members of our faith. I think more is said by the way our religion encourages people to live their lives and choose to treat others than you can see by an out-of-context mockery of something we hold dear. I’m sure you will have many scholarly disagreements with what I say, but as a mother I try to teach my children to respect others, their beliefs, their cultures, their traditions and the way they choose to practice them unless it harms someone else and I am saddened that HBO and so many of you think that curiosity supersedes that same respect for my religion.

Siamang,
As a Mormon myself, please help me better understand your question. I would want, above all, to demonstrate to you that there IS a mutuality of respect for you as an individual, and for your own opinions and comments.

I ask this because in reading over these postings I notice that for the most part we are all missing each other! It is kind of an “apple and orange” discussion. On the one side are those who are speaking from a spiritual perspective, and then there are those – the “atheists” as you have offered the definition – who are speaking from an intellectual and logical perspective. The fact is that we are speaking two different languages if you would and expecting to understand one another – and we are not. The “spiritual” is simply different than the “intellectual.” You cannot intellectualize spirituality and personal belief, and you cannot spiritualize the intellectual process. They are simply different. And thus we are simply missing one another. It is my feeling that it is such “missing” that seems to appear to be disrespect on both sides of this issue.

I do not want to enter the fray here. I simply seek an understanding – an understanding that allows us as Mormons to hold our own beliefs as sacred – as it allows you to hold your own beliefs in the same manner.

If there is judgement happening on either side of this issue, let it cease now! In a world of such confusion, anger and commotion can we not find the way to speak to each other with compassion and charity regardless of the perspectives we carry? Please, let us find the way!

I do not have to defend my right to believe, and neither should you. And I, nor you, should not be ridiculed for believing as we do. I think it is only fair though that we not ridicule or judge the other in such exchanges.

A final thought: there are issues that are simply not for public scrutiny. For example, the specific, individual and personal wonders and beauties that are expressed between intimate partners should never be allowed to be debated in a public forum. These emotional based experiences are unique and should be treated with tremendous respect and confidentiality. They should never have to be defended or debated.

Such is also the case for the spiritual (or transcendental) experiences anyone has. They are also deeply personal, and should not have to be defended or debated.

Thus, I honor the deepest feelings of your own emotional and spiritual (transcendental) experiences…and would simply ask the same from you.

Please…let us all keep the individual and personally sacred, sacred.

This isn’t personal.

It’s someone’s interpretation of a ceremony that is applied by rote to hundreds of thousands.

One major problem I see with this depiction is that the wider cosmological context of the ritual’s symbolism will not be explained. Any ritual and belief system can look stupid and bizarre when taken out of context. The endowment is a symbolic ascent into the divine presence. It signifies an eternal intersection between community, family, procreation and divinity.

If it were just “secret” Mormons would feel comfortable discussing the details outside the temple with those in the know, but they don’t. It is our sacred space, and for something to be sacred it most be set-apart from the profane world. It is that set-apartness that is violated here. My initial gut reaction is similar to what I might feel if my private, intimate moments with family and friends were, without my permission, displayed for entertainment purposes.

Anonymous, I can only assume that you are being intentionally dense. Here’s Siamang’s question: What secular thing that atheists do as a group will garner tit-for-tat widespread “respect” from Mormons?

All you did was say it’s the wrong question, and then go on about respect being individual. Ok, fine, that’s your opinion, but it’s not an answer.

Unless, of course, what you are saying is that Mormons as a group will never respect anything except their own idea of the sacred? In that case, my apologies, it wasn’t a very clear answer, but it was an answer.

ok. I converted to ‘Mormonism’ when I was 18. I’m now in my early 40’s and yes I have been through all of the temple ceremonies. I also watch the show Big Love. The show depicts LDS religious practices which are NOT accurate! They are close in some instances but not in others. The temple ordinances should not be out in the public. Not because there are things that happen in them which are strange or evil. Actually, these ceremonies are filled with love and good. They are sacred. That’s it. Believe me when I tell you, there is nothing that any person would find offensive. Quite the contrary in fact! HBO promised they would not make the connection between there characters and the real Mormon church. They are the ones who are going back on their word – not the church itself. Anyway, just some input from a real life Mormon.

Truer than you know, GullWatcher.

I’m not holding my breath for any an answer that actually addresses Siamang’s question, as that would require original, coherent thought. It just doesn’t seem likely.

Anonymous, having been mormon, I’ve heard the ‘hate the sin, but love the sinner’ mantra ad nauseum. That still doesn’t keep devout mormons like my mother from espousing her disgust for homosexuals on a regular basis. Her reaction is more the norm, despite the party line.

The same issue goes for this proposition 8 stuff. I have MANY gay and lesbian friends and I love them all regardless of their choices. I respect their decision. I also have my own beliefs and they respect those. The church did not fund the war against Prop 8, as many would like to think

Further, the church recruited its members to donate in support of Prop h8…to the tune of over $20 million dollars. The church didn’t really need to spend its own money because it has its loyal people to do the heavy lifting.

Kevin,

I would want, above all, to demonstrate to you that there IS a mutuality of respect for you as an individual, and for your own opinions and comments.

Do not deny that your religion states that it is the only true religion on the face of the earth and that all others are in error. That is the very basis for Joseph Smith’s original query that supposedly got the mormon ball rolling. Further, any logical argument regarding the basis for your beliefs will ultimately devolve into you claiming, “because I know” and “because it’s just right.” There is no possibility of mutual respect when one party is assured ‘beyond a shadow of a doubt’ and with ‘every fiber of [their] being’ that they know the ultimate truth about life and its purpose. Run from the man who claims to have all the answers!

I am a former Mormon. I went on a mission and I’ve been through the temple dozens, if not hundreds, of times. I’m also gay. I left the church, officially, about 10 years ago. I have been content, since then, to live and let live. I left Utah, moved to California, and was perfectly happy to let us all have our differences but live together on this rock without incident.

Until, last year, when the Mormons threw their considerable financial muscle behind a mean-spirited ballot initiative to strip me of the right to ask my fiance to marry me. I watched them all throw their hands up and cheer when the Yes On 8 verdict was announced. I was appalled. Here were people exulting — CHEERING — for taking away my rights. Nothing in their lives had changed — nothing. Their marriages were not in peril. They are not, nor will they be, the subject of legal wrangling, as are the marriages of so many of my friends. My world, however, had been changed. I had been relegated to a second-class status. I had been “put back” in my place, I guess.

(What would Jesus have done, I wondered.)

Where is the respect for me, and *my* beliefs, and *my* life? To use Mormons’ own parlance, one could say my relationship, my love for my man, is as “sacred” to me as their temple rites are to them. I wasn’t given much — ok, any — consideration for my right to privacy or desire not to have my life mocked. Why do Mormons think they deserve any different?

It’s no secret the Mormon church members donated tens of millions and the church itself assisted with many more hundreds of thousands of dollars in in-kind donations they are only now reluctantly beginning to report. They built websites, produced films, manned phone banks, all of it — all to come into my relationship, my bedroom, and take something away from me that had been given by the California Supreme Court — rights I was entitled to by my citizenship in a state to which I, like everyone, pay taxes.

So, we didn’t just roll over and take it — they’re getting called on their mean-spirited intrusion into our lives. And they’re not happy about it.

It amuses me to no end that NOW, they’ve decided they want everybody to be respectful of our various differences — please — where was all this “respect” for those who were “different” all last summer when the lie-filled commercials bankrolled by the Mormons were splashed all over my TV?

Memo to Mormons — people will respect your cherished beliefs and allow you to live your lives without harassment if only you would offer the same respect in return. Until you start doing that, we’re not going to let up. It’s no longer 1840. You can’t wall yourself off from the world. You live here, in this crowded place, with all of us.

It would be in your own best interest to learn that, and quick. Otherwise, you risk becoming (too late?) nothing more than the butt of jokes, watching in bewilderment as the world passes you by. Just when you began to live down your horribly racist past, you’ve stepped in yet another “culture war” you’re going to lose. Sooner rather than later, your hostile attitudes toward gays are going to be seen as just as boneheadedly anachronistic as your “Negroes were less valiant in heaven, thus they were cursed with black skin and a flat nose” (Paraphrasing Brigham Young) schtick.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Back up off my and my people, and I’ll leave you alone too.

Re: the temple ceremony in general — it’s equal parts boring and bizarre. But it’s going to make great television.

Pay Lay Ale,

Scott Van Tussenbrook
Los Angeles, CA

Scott

Thanks for your emotional and moving story ! You summarise the truth of what the LDS has done in the past year and now they don’t seem to be able to take the criticism they are getting for promoting inequality.

You should move with your fiance to the Netherlands (and looking at your surname it sounds like some of your family came originally from round here) .. here all people are equal (for real) and can marry (even in Church’s if they want), the separation of Church and State is clear…and the hate provokers don’t get chance to promote legislation to discriminate !!!

Scott, you’re the best.

It is really sad that everyone is supposed to respect all other religions or as those on this site have chose no religion. But… when it comes to this one, eveyone wants to find a way to bring it down. Pentecostals jump around and sway and raise their hands in the air moaning “oh Jesus, yes, Jesus” and their prayers are allowed, not silent and personal, but how about we make a movie about them and how they compare to Satan worshipers? Nahh… we accept them. Baptist can go around screwing everyone in town and putting down gays and lesbians and telling everyone that its ok to be evil and do cruel things to other people because you are saved by grace. I’ll bet “Jesus” loves that. How about doing a undercover movie on how they train Catholic Priest? Can we video tape their ceremonies too? This will never end.

Rieux said:

My prophecy is this: nothing terribly interesting will happen in the near future.

Ultimately I concur. The heated rhetoric is more a holdover from my mormon days. When you’re mormon, everything revolves around mormonism.

The withering of mormonism is already happening–though quite undramatically. The internet has offered a death by a thousand cuts for the church and their political forays simply get their collective heart beating faster.

Mormons here have quoted membership numbers as high as 13 million. When you assume activity rates in the 30-40% range, then that’s only about 5 million worldwide of active, believing mormons. They’ve been cutting their missionary force as well or have been unable to garner the numbers they used to. Knowledge of their past has been unkind to their recruitment efforts. They won’t go away any time soon, but will continue as they are–nothing spectacular indeed.

A number of themes expressed here.

We hold these ceremonies to be sacred so they should be respected.

We should be left alone in our beliefs.

This is offensive, disrespectful and so on.

People should respect our religious beliefs.

Valid points and feelings, perhaps you should keep this indignation in mind the next time you are puzzled by the same feelings being expressed by those who object to the baptizing of their dead relatives.

Kevin wrote:

I do not want to enter the fray here. I simply seek an understanding – an understanding that allows us as Mormons to hold our own beliefs as sacred – as it allows you to hold your own beliefs in the same manner.

But are those beliefs beyond comment by people who disagree? For example, when Mitt Romney bore false witness and falsely accused atheists, secularists and church-state separation advocates of holding an opinion we don’t hold, in order to curry political favor? I support his freedom of speech to be wrong and even insult, demean and lie about us.

That’s freedom of speech. I would NEVER, EVER, EVER in my whole life advocate that you should shut your mouth about atheists or atheism. Ridicule us all you want! A free exchange of ideas demands nothing less. Whatever you do, however, remember that I will attempt to treat you better than you’ve treated us. I supported Mitt Romney against the bigots in his own political party…. that was, until he made it clear that he, as Wendy Kaminer wrote: “opposes bigotry in self-defense, not in defense of others, which is to say that he does not really oppose it at all.”

I do not have to defend my right to believe, and neither should you.

Actually I defend your right to believe. I just don’t defend your actual beliefs, nor would you mine.

However, I think you are *asking* me to defend your right to believe that temple ceremonies should never be portrayed in fiction. This seems a lot like asking me to take part in a religious rule, even though I am not a member of your religion.

Nobody here has even attempted, as far as I can see, to explain why I should take up that belief as my own. Nobody here has explained what possible activity my (ficticious) atheist club might do that would be held just as sacrosanct by LDS that they would never offend it, talk about it, portray it in fiction, speak against it, etc.

And I, nor you, should not be ridiculed for believing as we do.

Ridicule is merely a not-very-attractive form of expressing one’s disagreement. When theists unilaterally disarm and stop expressing disagreement with people who believe differently about God, sexuality… etc, then we can talk about a world where ridicule is off-limits.

I understand that you don’t like your religion being the butt of jokes. I don’t like being the butt of Mitt Romney’s political speech on religion. I don’t like my family being the butt of LDS members’ views on the sacred bond of loving, mutual-consenting monogamous adult marriage.

All of that said, I want you to know that I hold LDS in higher esteem than most Americans, I think. And that is because I’m not hung up on which religion is the “right” one. Your religion is a unique expression among many, and I appreciate it as a cultural expression which is every bit as valid personally, emotionally and spiritually as the manifold forms of religious belief in our society. Also, I felt some common cause with you as a member of a minority belief. I am very aware that you suffer from the brunt of a bigoted minority, and I honestly do feel sympathy for you.

Recent events in the last election have dulled that sympathy. But it is still there.

I think it is only fair though that we not ridicule or judge the other in such exchanges.

I honestly feel like that call against judgment goes one-way.

I am a temple going member of the church. As I analyze my feeling towards this I find that I am not angry but somewhat sorrowful. It does not affect me in any way as long as I keep my covenants. There is allot of information about the temple on the internet. The only way it can get there is from someone who has been there and has made a solemn commitment to not reveal it. The information probably cannot be completely trusted since it is revealed by people with very low integrity.

This is it. I am an active LDS member, yes Temple Endowed! Many of the comments above are so crazy about the Mormon or LDS Church. Based on many of the comments of this site it should be labeled the friendlyantimormon. If you would like to know about the LDS Church its teachings and faith go to the source. Do you really think that someone who has left the mormon church has a lack of bias. If they did not they would still be members.

The Word is Tolerance! If I were to pee on a crucifix, paint the prophet Mohammud naked, make jokes about the holocaust to a Jewish Person, or yell the N-Word to an African American it would be considered extremely offensive. How would you know that you do not do these things is because the person you are doing them too has told you they are offensive. Do you really think that you can understand what offends an LDS member from a blog or from the prospective of a non LDS member or even worse someone who has left the church. Ask one of the 13 million members who believe in this faith and they will tell you. This show offends me as a Mormon and that should be sufficient for someone who is tolerant and respectful of others beliefs.

This show offends me as a Mormon and that should be sufficient for someone who is tolerant and respectful of others beliefs.

If I told you I was offended by your religion, would you cease to practice it?

Why not?

Think about who gets to choose what is offensive, and you may be closer to understanding us.

Let it be known, members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints still do believe and practice polygamy. I should know because I am still a member of this church (maybe not much longer) ….

FACT: A man can and are married/sealed to multiple wives in Temple Sealing Ceremony.

Wow–the Mormon crowd wandering in here to complain clearly has no interest in paying any attention to the arguments of those of us who disagree. Now that’s respectful!

Looks like I was taken aback by the same JBC line Siamang was:

This show offends me as a Mormon and that should be sufficient for someone who is tolerant and respectful of others beliefs.

In a word, no. The fact that you think that (a) a particular idea is “offensive,” or (b) your beliefs deserve to be protected from challenge, intellectual attack, or ridicule, creates no moral duty on our part to refrain from (a) expressing that idea or (b) challenging, intellectually attacking, or ridiculing your beliefs. You don’t like subjecting your religious notions to the scrutiny of the free marketplace of ideas? For the third time: tough. Be an adult, suck it up and stop whining.

Wake up, Mormons on this thread: we do not accept your right to demand that we not “offend” you. You have no right not to be offended. If you keep bizarrely presuming that you do, nothing you say will have any relevance to your opponents on this thread.

As a mormon who has been through the temple several times I have to say that the Endowment Ceremony is the worst freak-show I have ever witnessed! LDS covenant to devote all their time, ressources, money and even their life to the Church. They also covenant to obey and not speak evil of church-leaders. Any disagreement with any part of what the Church leaders say is considered apostasy. Until 1990 the Endowment ceremony included penalties and blood oaths and getting uncomfortable close to the veil worker during the 5 points of fellowship. LDS get a “New name” and learn some secret handshakes like the patriarchal grip – or sure sign of the nail. The handshakes or tokens are believed to make them pass angels in order to get into the celestial kingdom. The handshakes are demonstrated on YouTube and transcripts of the whole endowment ceremony can be found many places on the internet.
Considering that LDS believe that God is the Eternal Father and that the CEO (currently Thomas S. Monson) is a “Gods prophet” it is strange that the Temple Ceremonies needed to change so much! What was once thought essential for exaltation is not seen that way today!

Many elements of the endowment ceremony is copied from masonic rites – but the temple clothes are truly ridicolous. People look like they are attending a KKK rally wearing pizza baker hats and green fig leaves aprons. It is so outlandish and cultish and so far from anything Christ taught that I stopped going. I could simply not take it seriously.

Also consider that family members that are not “Worthy” can not attend the wedding of their sons or daughters. And this is a Chruch that protray themselves as family Church! LOL.

LDS believe that families can be together forever in the celestial kingdom – Another temple ceremony seal children to their parents. Ex-mormons will not be able to be together with their families forever.

Also LDS Claim they do not practise polygamy anymore. That is a blatant lie. A woman sealed to a man in the temple can not remarry if she becomes a vidow or divorces. A man however can remarry another woman in the temple for “eternity” – this makes him sealed to more than one woman. LDS believe that these men will ahve both women as his viwes. So LDS still practise polygamy.

I also notice the LDS doctrine of “Lying for the Lord” in the statement from the church about Big Love: They claim:

“When an independent film company produced a grossly distorted version of the Mountain Meadows Massacre two years ago, the Church ignored it”

That is a blatant lie! The Church actually was forced to apologize for the atrocities members committed when they killed 120-140 innocent and unarmed men and women.

Interesting that the church also mention beycotting AOL and HBO!!! In the aftermath of the passing of prop 8 in CA, some advocated boycotting LDS business who had donated money to the Yes on 8 Campain – The outcry of “We are getting persecuted for our religious beliefs” were hilariously funny. Just look how they act now – they can dish it out but don´t take it!

People has to face that Mormonism is based on the false teachings of false prophet who was a great charasmatic conartist, who had 33 vives – 2 who were 14 making Joseph smith a pedophile. He lied about everything – Ask LDS why he was sent to Carthage Jail? They haven´t got a clue that he and LDS vigilantes destroyed the Navoo expositor, run by the former 1. counselor, who left the Church when Joseph Smith wanted to marry his wife!!!! But like LDS and Church leaders say – the truth is not useful, if it is not faith promoting.

Watching the reaction of a Church and it’s members that believe that all other churches and religions are FALSE and they are the “only true Church” is quite amusing. Let them have their secret KKK pizza baker costume parties, with not so secret handshakes. But stop them from creating a theocracy -their version of “Gods kingdom on Earth” by forcing their “Values” on everybody else like they have done everytime equal rights for blacks, women and now gays and lesbians are discussed. Prop 8 in Ca, the common ground initiative and now trying to prevent civil unions in Illionois, show the true ambition of the MLM Mormon Inc. They don´t care about separation of Church and state – No wonder Mitt Romney never became a serious candidate for US President! If LDS have it their way they will create a theocracy more brutal and murderous than the Islamic Priesthood Regime in Iran. But they forget that freedom of religion is also freedom from religion!

Equality,

Here’s the article my son pointed me to, it seems self-explanatory. If you have articles that the Church put out after this, I’d be happy to take a look at them.

Salt Lake Tribune poll.

Even so, a House committee Wednesday rejected Rep. Jennifer Seelig’s HB160, which would have offered two, unmarried cohabiting adults — including same-sex couples — safeguards of inheritance rights and medical-decision making for one another.

Foes argued gay couples and other unmarried pairs already can secure those rights through wills and other contracts.

HB160 “is unnecessary,” testified Stan Rasmussen, public-affairs manager for the conservative Sutherland Institute. “Further, it creates confusion regarding current law governing inheritance and medical-decision making.”

But Salt Lake City resident Kim Hackford-Peer warned that having all the right documents in place wasn’t enough to guarantee that she could be in the room when her partner, Ruth Hackford-Peer, was having an amniocentesis during her second pregnancy.

“What if the circumstances were different? … What if I was not allowed my last opportunity to talk to her?” Kim Hackford-Peer asked. “When even one person is hurt by a rule or a law that could be changed to make sure that nobody is hurt, I believe, we, as a community, have an obligation to make that change.”

She also noted not everyone can afford to hire an attorney to draft a will or a health-care directive.

Still, the GOP-led House Judiciary Committee voted 9-4 along party lines against the measure.

Despite Wednesday’s defeat, the Common Ground Initiative is far from dead, said Mike Thompson, executive director of Equality Utah, the advocacy group leading the charge. Democratic lawmakers have promised to bring back their bills, with some variations, next year.

And activists scored some mini-victories. All the bills, save for one pulled by its sponsor, at least reached committee hearings.

“The majority of Utahns support these basic protections,” Thompson said. “We are not giving up on these issues. The Common Ground Initiative is not a 2009 legislative agenda.”

Another failed gay-rights bill, HB288, was not included in the initiative. It would have allowed unmarried couples, including gay and lesbian pairs, to adopt and foster children in Utah.

Equality Utah crafted the Common Ground Initiative in response to statements made by the LDS Church after passage of California’s Proposition 8. Even though it supported the ballot measure, which banned same-sex marriage in the Golden State, the church said it “does not object to rights for same-sex couples regarding hospitalization and medical care, fair housing and employment rights, or probate rights, so long as these do not infringe on the integrity of the traditional family or the constitutional rights of churches.”

Despite those comments, the LDS Church did not endorse Equality Utah’s initiative.

So, I’m not misrepresenting anything, just commenting upon what I read and I haven’t seen anything to the contrary but I’m always willing to read more. The remainder of your comments aren’t even really pertinent to our discussion so I’ll just stop here.

Thank you, PK, for the ad-hominem attack and ignorance and intolerance of who I am and what I believe:

There is allot of information about the temple on the internet. The only way it can get there is from someone who has been there and has made a solemn commitment to not reveal it. The information probably cannot be completely trusted since it is revealed by people with very low integrity.

As I recall from my first mormon temple visit, I was issued a verbal contract at the moment of signing. In other words, I knew nothing about what was going to take place other than that it was an ‘essential ordinance’ akin to baptism when covenants would be made with God. What I got instead was naked touching, silly outfits, a movie featuring Satan, and secret passwords and handshakes. Had I been presented with the full facts as to what was about to take place, then I would have ripped up that ‘contract’ on the spot. With friends and parents watching however (they’re always present the first time a new initiate attends the temple), I could hardly bow out just because things started to look a little strange to my 18 yr-old eyes. I trusted my friends and family. I trusted the mormon leaders. I trusted Joseph Smith and THEY all broke their trust and committment to me. A contract cannot be made by coercion and be valid. In my opinion only people of low integrity would participate in such a charade as the temple is.

As for JBC:

If you would like to know about the LDS Church its teachings and faith go to the source. Do you really think that someone who has left the mormon church has a lack of bias. If they did not they would still be members.

If you want unbiased information regarding any product, then you go to a third party who reviews it–not to the salemen or to the factory who have a vested interest in your purchase. Ask a mormon about mormonism only if you want a sales pitch.

The problem is that the information regarding what happens in LDS temples is a closely guarded secret by the LDS and so there is little information in the public forum. Big Love will help provide such and hopefully begin a dialogue about it.

Further, your claim that only unbiased people would remain in the church is absurd and a logical fallacy akin to the No True Scotsman argument, i.e. if someone leaves the mormon church, then they weren’t ‘true’ members. Only those who have the courage to stand up to hypocrisy and lies leave the mormon church. Everyone else swallows Joseph’s Myth hook, line, and sinker. Being brainwashed is worse than being biased.

I know that you will now label everything I said as anti-mormon and that will cease all reasoning and thinking in your head. That’s fine. Just be aware that you’re doing exactly as you’ve been told to. Yours is a Pavlovian response and is understandable. You should, however, learn to examine even those facts and statements that at first seem upsetting or absurd to you. If humans did not do so, then we would still believe that the sun revolved around the earth just as religions of old told us to because the alternative rocked their boat.

You must be able to think outside of the little world that the mormon church has built for you. Forming new neural pathways will be difficult, but you’ll find it to be the most rewarding and empowering thing you’ve ever done.

Dakulis wrote:

That said, I have a real problem with the GLB community using inflammatory language to punish the Church for supporting their principles. How many Hollywood folks spent money, how many GLB folks spent their money? So, it’s okay for “your side” to pay to support their principles but not Church members? That makes no sense.

Let’s deconstruct this to make it simple…..

GLB folks supporting their principles (ie fighting for marriage rights) does absolutely NOTHING to affect the Mormon church.

When Mormons fund efforts to strip GLB people of marriage rights/privileges, this has a real, tangible negative impact on the lives of those GLB people.

Get it now?

The apparent blindness to this blatantly obvious and hypocritical double standard is mind-boggling.

Respect isn’t a one-way-street. If the church continues to show complete and utter disregard for the ‘sacred’ things of other people, there’s absolutely no reason for anyone to respect it.

If you want everyone to ‘just get along’, then stop interfering in the lives of other people. So very simple. Do that, and then yes, we most surely COULD all ‘get along’ 🙂

What about the magic underpants?

so I haven’t read the two hundred some comments, but I as I recall the temple initiation thing is when you start wearing the magic underpants.

I know this because my sister got married in the temple back when she was mormon. I wasn’t able to go to her wedding. I spent it in the church next door with a very bored photographer. My mom got to spend it in the hallway of the temple. I guess since she was the mother of the bride they wanted her to be closer even if she couldn’t actually see it. The only thing objectionable about the ceremony other than excluding many family and friends was that apparently the mormon ceremony doesn’t involve asking the bride if she consents to the marriage. They ask the groom but not the bride. I don’t know if that’s traditional or just something my sister’s “sealer” did.

Also I’ve been in a mormon temple. Before it officially opened they had sort of an open house when they built one in my home town. My sister dragged the whole family to go see it. I guess it was ok because it hadn’t been sanctified or something.

To the person who really, really wants to know about the “Mormon underpants”:These are called ‘temple garments’ and the person wears them after they’ve been through the temple (ergo the name).  I wore those cursed things for about a dozen years until I left the church.  My understanding is that they are to keep you from temptation, as in if you see some hot guy you would like to get it on with…..hey!  nothing doing……you have on these temple garments & were married in the temple.  There are ‘marks’ here & there on the garments to remind you of your sacred voews, blah blah blah.And to the other person asking about Polygamy.  This is supposed to be the way it works in the Celestial Kingdom.  Not only that, but if a couple is sealed in the temple & lives righteous lives (gag) they get to be God & Goddess of their own planet.  I kid you not.  So, since the Mormons had to drop practicing polygamy openly for political reasons, that didn’t change their belief that it’s practed in the celestial kingdom, ergo is really God’s wishes. Yeah, bizarre.

i’ll i’ve got to say is: snap!! after reading all this, i’ve got to put some icy-hot on my eyes to ease the visual chaffing i’m getting! my favorite in reading all of these was the tactic of: if you have a different opinion/faith than me, i’m going to make you look dumb with either direct or indirect personal attacks on you and your opinion. some even offered citations! thus far i feel 0% understanding has been achieved. but then again, that probably wasn’t the goal was it?

I am a practicing member of the LDS faith. I haven’t seen any episodes of Big Love, so I’m not really qualified to comment on whether it’s portrayal of polygamist culture and Mormon culture culture is accurate and realistic. I will say, however, that regardless of whether the portrayal is realistic and fair, I am still disappointed that they would choose to re-enact parts of the temple ceremonies in their show.

My objection arises from the fact that the temple and the ordinances performed therein are considered to by very sacred. We hold the temple in such reverence that we don’t discuss the temple ordinances in detail even among ourselves outside the temple walls.

A sacred experience doesn’t necessarily have to be a religous experience. Think about the experiences that have had a profound or solemn effect on your life. Maybe it was a time when you really communicated heart-to-heart with a dear friend or relative. Maybe it was the birth of your child. Maybe it was a funeral of a loved one. I pity anyone who has never experienced anything sacred.

Now imagine if HBO filmed that profoundly affecting moment of yours, and put it on TV without your consent. How would you feel? If they told you they had researched your sacred experience thoroughly to present it in the most accurate way, would that make it any better? Maybe some people would be all right with that, but I think most of us would be upset.

When I heard Big Love is planning on showing parts of the temple ceremonies, that’s kind of how I felt (although not exactly). My objection isn’t a matter of whether it will be portrayed fairly. It’s a matter of feeling violated because HBO is disrespecting my very sacred experience for the sake of entertainment.

The endowment ceremony is an ordinance (not unlike baptism in some respects) that typically takes about 2 hours, and there is a lot of information/doctrine that is presented during the ceremony. The first few times I attended the temple, I even found it very confusing. It took me several trips to the temple before I started to get a basic understanding of the purpose of the ordinance and how it ties in with other areas of the gospel.

Imagine what it might be like for someone who has never been exposed to Christianity were to witness a baptism. Would they understand the symbolism, meaning or importance of the ordinance? Would they understand why Christians consider baptism to be a spiritual/sacred event? Of course not. It would look bizarre, cultish, even frightening.

For anyone who has not attended a temple ceremony, that is probably the impression you will have while you watch the snippets that are shown on the show. It’s not really possible for HBO to present the ordinances in a context that would make sense to someone who is not well versed in LDS doctrine and beliefs.

That being said, there have been comments made on this forum that imply there are racy/inappropriate things that happen in the temple. That is simply not the case. There is a lot of stuff that happens in the temple that you might find very confusing. However, there is nothing that happens in the temple that would be considered inappropriate/racy/obscene if it were to happen in a crowded public area full of school children.

I feel like I’ve been raped again. You have taken something very very private, very sacred, very personal and riped it away from me and your laying it open to display not for some warped personal kicks but for some warped need for a few extra dollars. Did I wrong you some how someway? If so I appologize, please don’t do this to me not again I don’t know if I can take it again. If it helps, no you don’t learn anything about plural marrage in the Temple, you don’t learn anything about an intergalatic anything, what LDS people do or do not choose to wear is their own business. I don’t make your choice of undergarment public business. You can learn alot of what is said in the Temple by reading your Bible that’s right, not terribly exciting earth shattering stuff. PLEASE LEAVE THE LORD’S TEMPLES ALONE

Regarding comments made about Mormons buying their way into the temple:

Only LDS faithful who hold a temple recommend are permitted to attend the temple. If a member wants to obtain a temple recommend, they have an “interview” with their bishop. The interview consists of a series of questions asked by the bishop and answered by the person who wants to obtain the recommend.

I believe there are currently 21 questions on the interview list. All members everywhere are asked the same questions, and bishops are explicitly instructed to not modify or add to the questions. One of the questions is “are you a full-tithe payer?” This question is not given any more precedence over any of the other questions. I don’t know all of the other questions, but they are along the lines of “are you honest in your dealings with your fellow man?”, “do you sustain Thomas S. Monson as a prophet, seer, and revelator?”, and “do you have a testimony of Jesus Christ?”

The point is that the bishop does not determine whether someone is worthy to attend the temple. The person who is being interviewed makes that determination themself. The bishop never says “I know you’re making $100,000 a year, and from my calculations you’re only paying 2%.”

The interview is an opportunity for the interviewee to assess their own worthiness. Willingness to pay a full 10% tithe is only one of many measures of an individual’s testimony.

Suggesting that people are “buying their salvation” by paying tithing implies that qualifying for a temple recommend is a lot easier than it actually is. Paying a full tithe is only one requirement among many for a faithful LDS adherent.

Beetle:

This all just goes to demonstrate that, as a whole, Friendly Atheists are more courteous net citizens than the Mormons trolling here.

You have a point–but I don’t think I would call what our Mormon guests are doing here trolling. It’s more like filibustering–they’re trying to squeeze out any dissent from their petulant whining by mere repetition and strength-in-numbers. In a sense, their tactic is the opposite of trolling: rather than trying to provoke a reaction, they’re trying to bury the reaction (and then pretend it doesn’t exist).

Honestly, it seems to me that what they’re doing is measurably worse than trolling. At least trolls recognize that there are two (or more) sides to an issue.

Dakulis said:

Scott, Prop. 8 was “mean spirited” in your mind but not mine.

So, Dakulis, by the same token, you should be ‘ok’ if the producers of ‘Big Love’ said to you:

‘our decision to show temple services is “mean spirited” in your mind but not ours‘

and you should be ‘ok’ if a homosexual person said to you:

‘our decision to protest and boycott all things Mormon is “mean spirited” in your mind but not ours’

right?

will ANY Mormon posting in this thread have the integrity to ‘explain’ why their active bigotry (which has real world negative consequences for people who have nothing to do with their church) should be ‘respected’, while reactions against their bigotry are apparently NOT worth respecting?

anyone??

I’m still waiting for somebody to respond to the question about why, if a non-Mormon finds something about Mormonism offensive, members of that religion are not obligated to stop practising it out of “respect”. (And incidentally, as a feminist and a humanist, I can find plenty to be offended by.)

It is interesting reading about all the excitement and mystery about the upcoming Big Love episode. I guess people will be thinking: “Once and for all, we’re finally going to see the truth about all this Mormon stuff.” Well, you are wrong.
What about the secret ceremonies within the Catholic Church? I don’t knock the Catholics?
What about the secret ceremonies within the myriad Native American tribes? I don’t knock the Natives.
There’s so much more out there that is “secret” or “sacred” that people haven’t a clue about.
In some way, all this reminds me of Monty Python in search of the Holy Grail!

I think with all this uproar behind the episode, people who actually watch it will maintain that it isn’t anything different than watching a scene in a catholic confessional (which I’ve scene many times in movies and tv), or a Jewish temple, a Christian baptizing ceremony etc etc. Are these not as sacred????

Scenes like these DO NOT denounce religion, whatsoever, but rather celebrate the practices. Come Monday, our practices will not be any less sacred than they were Sunday when the episode is supposed to air. I guess I just take it for what it is. Here are the full statements from HBO and the producers:

HBO Statement:

“We know that the writers/producers of the series have gone to great lengths to be respectful and accurate in portraying the endowment ceremony. That ceremony is very much an important part of this year’s storyline. Obviously, it was not our intention to do anything disrespectful to the church but to those who may be offended, we offer our sincere apology. It should also be noted that throughout the series’ three-year run, the writer/producers have made abundantly clear the distinction between the LDS church and those extreme fringe groups who practice polygamy. ”

Statement from Mark V Olsen and Will Scheffer :

“In approaching the dramatization of the endowment ceremony, we knew we had a responsibility to be completely accurate and to show the ceremony in the proper context and with respect. We therefore took great pains to depict the ceremony with the dignity and reverence it is due. This approach is entirely evident in the scene portrayed in this episode and certainly reflected in Jeanne Tripplehorn’s beautiful and moving performance as she faces losing the Church she loved so much. In order to assure the accuracy of the ceremony, it was thoroughly vetted by an adviser who is familiar with temple practices and rituals. This consultant was actually on the set throughout the filming of the scenes to make sure every detail was correct.”

Understanding:

Just remember that some people want to keep things personal, private, sacred or secret and a respect for people would be nice as long as that does not hurt anyone or endanger others.

All good and well and agreeable, but the secret temple rituals do hurt people. New members to the church are told next to nothing about what goes on in the temple. They’re only told that it’s a neccessity and that’s it’s “special.” Then when they do go, they often feel shocked, betrayed, and the victim of a scam. Those people have been hurt by all of the secrecy. Disclosure and discussion would alleviate many of those problems. It is actually in the church’s best interest for the public to be able to learn as much as possible about what being a member fully involves.

Besides, there are hundreds of thousands of exmormons who do know exactly what goes on in the temple, but that, I would think, does not lessen the sacredness of the event for you personally. Something can be public knowledge and still be privately sacred.

Then when they do go, they often feel shocked, betrayed, and the victim of a scam

In my opinion this would only occur if you do not properly prepare yourself. There are temple prep classes you can attend prior to going. Also if you truly have a testimony of the restored church than anything that does not involve the violation of others should be of shock. Nothing we do is extreme, no one is hurt, no animals are involved, there is no mention of anyone other the Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ as deity.
Unfortunately in a society the really values nothing anymore, I am not surprised that so few people have any understanding of things being sacred. Family, Sex, Children, Human life are near worthless to society anymore. As a convert of 10 years this is a sad day for me, but we will push forward, this will simply act as another opportunity to speak about what we believe, just as ‘Big Love’ and ‘South Park’ have done in the past. I just wish that this time the price was not so high.

It’s that the temple is a place where only people who are really serious about being all those things I listed above go to make promises to God. I know that promises don’t mean much anymore. Every idiot in the world stands up and says “I do” in any conventional wedding ritual but he really means, yeah – until I don’t feel like it, or until I don’t get what I want, or until it gets boring. The Mormon people feel like the promises they make to God – about those things I listed above, remember – that they are REAL promises. And it’s better you don’t make them at all than to make them and lie to God about it, or turn out to be too shallow or selfish or whatever to keep them.

You want to know how long my sister’s special “sealed for all eternity” marriage lasted? Ten months. They didn’t even make it a full fucking year. I on the other hand, have made no promises in front of gods or men, and yet have made a happy home with my beloved for five years. So forgive me for not taking your REAL promises seriously when I have managed to surpass them simply by living my life.

The concept of secrecy from an organization that has ex-members is interesting. Does an organization have the right to retain secrets from non-members?

The question is: Do individuals own their own experiences involving the organization or does the organization? Some companies have non-compete contracts with outgoing employees so that those employees can’t take their special skills and experience from that one company and us it to benefit a competitor.
Maybe LDS should get their members’ commitment to secrecy in writing before allowing them into the temple?

But, like someone mentioned above, secrets just do more to sew distrust than anything else.

As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, let me answer some of your questions.
First off, what we do in the temple is not secret, but sacred. They are things that are not taught until you have an understanding of the basic principles of the church. Very much like other religions, Judaism & Catholicism. You must learn to walk before you run. There is nothing that is done that ANYONE would be ashamed of, but if you don’t understand the church or our basic principles than you will be confused. That is why it is done with in the temple and out of the public eye.
We are not offended because we think they are showing anything that we would be ashamed of, we are offended because they are taking something that is so highly respected and sacred to us and disprespectfully putting it out there to make money. Someone would say it is like someone taking their diary and their most treasured memories and thoughts and reading them out loud on TV.
Also you said the following “but I imagine a lot of Mormons don’t like it because it portrays an aspect of Mormonism (polygamy) that many of them don’t subscribe to. ”
It is not an aspect of Mormonism, Polygamy has been against the rules of the church since 1890, any members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints who practice this are excommunicated. It is members of the FLDS church that practice polygamy, and they don’t practice these temple ceremonies. So by doing this show they have completed blurred the lines of 2 very different religions. SOme think they are not different, but I tell you they are as different as the Catholic church and the Methodist church.
I am saddened at the fact that HBO thinks they have a right to show this, and that even after they have recieved millions of complaints and pleas to stop it that they would continue on. I feel sorry for them that they have no respect for religions and those that practice them.

This is not being done with the intent to educate people about what goes on in our Temples, it is a direct attack on the Mormon Community. This show is ridiculous, inaccurate and offensive. Mormons contribute so much to society with charity and volunteer service and all the general public wants to do is ridicule us. We are by no means perfect, but we do try to teach and practice good moral values…. something that the world in general is lacking right now. I think its interesting how people like the makers of big love are trying to act like heros that are exposing some criminal coverup, but the truth is … if they were alive at the time of Jesus Christ, they would be the ones crucifying him.

In my opinion this would only occur if you do not properly prepare yourself. There are temple prep classes you can attend prior to going.

Oh come on lane, any mormon and ex-mormon who has gone through the temple knows that the ‘temple preparation’ classes don’t tell you anything about what actually goes on in the temple. There is no way on earth that someone going through the temple for the first time is prepared for the ceremony’s weirdness, unless they’ve gotten information on it from somewhere else.

Everyone is initially taken aback by the experience. Don’t kid yourself. It’s a disturbing state of affairs.

@Iane

Also if you truly have a testimony of the restored church than anything that does not involve the violation of others should be of shock. Nothing we do is extreme, no one is hurt, no animals are involved, there is no mention of anyone other the Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ as deity.

There are other things people can find shocking – like how childish and/or just plain lame is some big secret thing that supposed to be sacred. That was how Stetson Kennedy helped break the power of the KKK, by making their secrets known. It wasn’t because outsiders made fun of them, it was because after having it out in the open, lots of the KKK members took a look at themselves and realized how stupid their secret society was. It demoralized from within, legitimately.

Shine the light, HBO!

lane also said:

Now I don’t hear that non-temple is sacred, there is no such concept.

And there we have it folks.

Lane is saying it bluntly: “my definition of ‘sacred’ is the ONLY one that exists“.

What supreme arrogance. And selfishness.

And you said (with a straight face presumably) that you ‘respect the homosexual fight’??

What utter utter bollocks.

Hey mormons:

What are you all ashamed of? Oh, yeah all the crazy/scary nonsense that you do in the temple. I know why you keep it secret too. Otherwise you kids would freak out an run away from your cult as fast as possible.

Hmmm, so you can’t go into the temple to learn these secret rituals until you are about to leave on a two year mission or are about to get married? Why is that? Why can’t your church members go to the temple right when they turn 18? I mean, technically they can, right?

Maybe it is because you know how freaky the cult rituals are in the temple. And you know you have to have a larger commitment to keep people from running out screaming after getting their loins washed and annointed.

Is that really fair to a young man or young woman? If a woman about to get married is freaked out about the temple rituals, what are her options? The first she learns about these cultish ceremonies are when she experiences them firsthand on the day before or the day of her wedding. If she is shocked/disgusted/scared, what is she to do? Cancel the wedding and not marry the person she loves?

That is just cruel.

AxeGrrl, I’m glad you asked,

why should what Mormons hold as ’sacred’ be given respect when they offer no respect for what other people hold as ’sacred’?

Rieux already touched on the religous freedom side of the argument. But the issue for us is that the temple ordinances are private. It’s not open for public debate or critique.

Gays, on the other hand, want to tell me that gay-marriage is ok and it should be accepted as “normal”. Well it’s not. It never has been normal. They want to make it a public issue, they want to make it LAW and the MAJORITY of the population struck it down.
we don’t want you to understand or accept our beliefs if you don’t want to. YEs, we aggressively give you the opportunity to learn more through missionary work. But allow you to make that decision for yourself.
Gays didn’t lose any rights that they didn’t already have. We just prevented them from gaining new ones. THEY made it a public issue.
Broadcasting our temple ordinances will get all of us nowhere. But it’ll make a few bitter avenging losers feel better.

@WHERE’STHEbigLOVE? – so, it’s the same answer as Iane – what is sacred to you is sacred, what is sacred to anyone else is unimportant and wrong. Thanks for making it clear twice over.

Mormons like you deserve NO respect, and frankly, I hope you get even less.

Does anyone know where these Mormons are coming from? Who or what site sent them here? I would really like to know.

AxeGrrl wrote:

why should what Mormons hold as ’sacred’ be given respect when they offer no respect for what other people hold as ’sacred’?

And “WHERE’STHEbigLOVE?” responded:

Rieux already touched on the religous freedom side of the argument….

Are you kidding me? Do you actually think my comment supports your absurd bigotry? (I guess you haven’t noticed that, on three separate occasions upthread, I have admonished the childish Mormons on this thread to grow up, “suck it up, and stop whining.” Missed that, huh?)

Here’s my answer to Axe Grrl’s question again, Chief:

Two words: religious privilege. Americans broadly believe that religious beliefs should be protected from challenge and critique to a degree that vastly exceeds the protection afforded to any other kind of idea—and indeed to several kinds of people. That’s just the special status, it’s widely believed, that religion deserves to have.

So if you blast Mormonism, and your Mormon opponent blasts you for being a stupid ignorant atheist (Psalm 14:1: “The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good”), you have violated social standards of discourse, but your opponent has not. Simple.

That’s called “sarcasm,” friend. I was mocking your insufferable sense of entitlement to rain down bigotry on innocent people—here, atheists and gays—from a position in which you claim it’s offensive even to question your “sacred” absurdities. You get to dehumanize us, but we don’t even get to challenge your ideas.

The term for your disgusting hypocrisy is religious privilege, buddy, not religious freedom. It’s a cousin to white privilege, male privilege, and straight privilege. (Perhaps you should look those terms up, given your confusion between privilege and freedom.) Indeed, privilege, as you wield it, is entirely the opposite of freedom. Religious privilege is morally bankrupt and fundamentally inhuman.

Both your reading comprehension and your ability to recognize your own attempts at self-aggrandizement are horrendously bad.

Rieux:

Screwy as Lutherans, like most mainstream Christians, can be in the things they believe, the ones I know have got nothing on the present crowd of Mormons as far as inability to see beyond the end of their own noses is concerned.

Glad you noticed. 🙂

This also helps to put that blissfully-ignorant-smile on their faces too. When you’re always right in your own right little world, everything is peachy. And everyone who criticizes you is just bitter or offended. Mormonism is a very egocentric mindset.

I am LDS AKA Mormon. What has bothered me about this is that this is being portrayed as taking place in the “Temple” Not everyone can enter the temple. This is a flawed storyline and is only being done to mock what myself and others hold as sacred. I will vote with my remote and my dollar on this, not because someone told me to but because it is the right thing to do

@Iane

I’m sorry, honestly, I am under the impression that this is a public domain, and my sole reason for being here is to present the other side, we learn nothing when isolating ourselves.

It is indeed an open forum, but the honest thing to do is to say who sent you here. From the very high number of brand new people posting, all Mormons, it’s clear that somewhere out there is a site or blog frequented by Mormons that has posted a link to this particular site. So, who sent you? Or is that all secret and sacred too?

Now gay marriage is a public domain because the State has made marriage a public institution

Exactly right – public AND secular, and therefore none of your church’s business.

So which is it, guys – are the Mormons who come here all stupid, or rude, or both?

Neither. They are simply heavily programmed. The canned responses you see from the Mormons visiting here are not rehearsed. They didn’t get together and agree on a message, the way political candidates’ spinmeisters do. No, they are simply reacting in a Pavlovian manner. They’ve been programmed by the church to spout “sacred not secret” and “there’s nothing unusual or bizarre to those who understand” and “milk before meat” and “walk before run” whenever they see or hear the words “secret rituals,” or “Mormon mysteries” or the like. They aren’t stupid–they’ve simply shut off the critical-thinking portions of their brains, having ceded that territory to the church. The Mormon church crushes dissent, discourages free thought, controls the flow of information about the church’s history, doctrines, and practices, and employs numerous techniques to get its members to think alike, look alike, and act alike.

Equality–spoken like someone who has seen the man behind the curtain and lived to tell the tale. I concur 100%

Here’s a stanza from a mormon children’s song that the kids sing together on Sundays:
“I want to see the temple
I’m going there someday
To feel the Holy Spirit
To Listen and to pray”
That’s a nice whitewashed version for kids! No mention of ceremonial outfits or secret handshakes though.

At least it’s better than the repetitive “Follow the Prophet” song whose oft-repeated refrain of “Follow the Prophet, Follow the Prophet, Follow the Prophet, for he knows the way” still haunts me to this day.

The indoctrination starts early and only gets more intense with age.

What’s your blog’s address, Equality? If you can’t post it here then email it to me at oldbeezle@gmail.com

@Iane

For me it was google, typed in ” ‘Big Love’ temple”. Can’t speak for everyone else.

That brings up 129,000 hits. So, again, why THIS blog, of the 129,000 hits?

And if anyone else would care to comment as to how they got here, that would be good. Clearly, Mormons are being funneled here from somewhere, even if Iane got here on his own.

Yes but based on our beliefs marriage was God’s institution before it was the States, therefore we get involved.

Every society, bar none, has a form of marriage, even ones that don’t have a god. Are you going to forbid them marriage as well?

As far as having secular and religious marriages be separate things, that actually could be a good idea, except for one thing – you will never get people to quit calling both of them marriage. You can’t legislate the way people use words, it just doesn’t happen.

Old Beezle, if you click on Equality’s name above his post, it will take you to his blog. Anytime you see a poster’s name in red instead of black here, it’s a link.

This site was the first one on the list that looked some what organized.

Every society, bar none, has a form of marriage, even ones that don’t have a god. Are you going to forbid them marriage as well?

Honestly I am in this society so I am worrying about these United States. I know most people complain but we live in a country that affords me my right to stand for what I believe even if it is not popular.

Does anyone see a problem if we just remove marriage from state control all together and just issue all people regardless of sexual orientation domestic partnerships?

@lane

Does anyone see a problem if we just remove marriage from state control all together and just issue all people regardless of sexual orientation domestic partnerships?

I actually think you are onto something there. But keep in mind that secular marriage carries with it a great deal of legal and financial consequences. This is in stark contrast to religious marriage, which is (in this life) mostly about ceremony. If domestic partnerships were not a sham similar to “separate but equal” we might find it easier to find common ground.

So, does anyone see a problem if we just remove civil marriage from religious control altogether, and just let religious denominations keep their various sacraments of holy matrimony to themselves?

I think we need less politically correct cowtowing and more truth on tv. Sacred places, rituals, and ceremonies are found within every religion, it is not unique to Mormonism. The difference is that other religions share them with the world, while the Mormons make sure they limit access to the Temple and the rituals so that only members who are up to date with their donations can participate. In this way, they keep the demand high and the supply low to ensure good profits. It also ensures that people witnessing the bizarre rituals are already indoctrinated and won’t find them strange or offensive like average Christians would. These rituals simply do not jive with the rituals Christians and Jews have used for thousands of years. They are based on freemason rituals that Joseph Smith participated in. In fact, Smith strayed so far from Christian dogma when he made up his religion that most Christian churches don’t consider the LDS church to be truly Christian, their teachings simply don’t meet the criteria. Mormons always have an “us vs. them” outlook, like they are so persecuted. So, the church conceals their rituals, even their teachings, to avoid “bigotry” from other Christians. In other words, true christians can see that the Emperor has no clothes. That is why they call the “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints”, they put Jesus’ name in the title to hammer home that they are Christian, because so many other Christians know that they are not.

You need a Temple reccomend from a church elder to go into a temple, in other words the church decides if you are worthy to go into their most sacred places. I know that a religion needs to create criteria for who can participate and what is required for membership, but I am proud that the most sacred places in my religion are open to the public. I’m proud that my church puts it all out there, the good the bad and the ugly, and you can take it or leave it. After all, the people in the most need of the healing power of sacred places usually can’t afford the kind of donations needed to gain a temple recommend. A homeless man can walk into my church to seek solace, but not a Mormon Temple. This is not very Christian, but neither is the book of mormon.

So again, are you going to deny those people the right to be married, because the religious component doesn’t fit your model?

Honest answer, yes.
Maybe you will like this one better. Will you deny citizenship to every single person that wants to come live here? That is a right you have that is denied others and while you may say there are legal channels, millions of people would love to come here if you let them. Some things we try to preserve. It makes me sick what society has turned marriage into, you can throw it aside so easily ,and for many the only value is the tax breaks. I am trying to preserve marriage in the form that I know it to be when in its true and proper form. You obviously disagree, and I understand, I simply do not accept.
I know this pains people, but please understand that Mormons do not hate other people. We are in pained do to what we see as a breakdown in society and a removal of those things we hold dear. Thus back to what HBO is doing, we do not hate them, the actors, people that post comments on blogs attacking us. We are simply in pain from the tide we see before us. We are stuck trying to love mankind while standing by what we believe, unfortunately loving and giving people what they want are not always the same.

Have fun WHERE’STHEbigLOVE. Work hard on those kids, my liberal hippie parents worked hard to brainwash me into the homosexual anything is good, abortion is fine, sex with who ever, drugs all the time, drink till you pass out, down with the establishment theology and see what they got. A temple attending, sealed to his wife, father of 3 (watch out over population), non-drinking, non-smoking Mormon.

By the way before any one starts the “you’re so self righteous” bashing. It was a joke.

I will now bow out as I have probably taken up too much of your blog and I have caught enough flack from people. Blame it on Google they got me here.
Love ya

We are simply in pain from the tide we see before us. We are stuck trying to love mankind while standing by what we believe, unfortunately loving and giving people what they want are not always the same.

I think part of the problem as I see it is that as a political force, proponents of conservative limits on marriage are done with the honey (if they ever used that) and have gone to the vinegar.

You have one idea of marriage, based on your religion. You seek to impose that religious idea of marriage on people who do not share your religion. Rather than convince others of the rightness of your view or the rightness of your religion, and short of that, leaving people the heck alone, you’ve sought to use the power of the government to enforce the dictates of your religion on the rest of us.

As a minority religion in this country, I’d say beware what you wish for. If a simple majority can take away fundamental rights from a minority group, Latter-Day Saints might find themselves victims of the bigoted majority of fundamentalist Christianists.

GullWatcher said:

public AND secular, and therefore none of your church’s business.

This.

There has been absolutely no substantive, valid rebuttal to the above point from the Mormons in this thread.

They want what they want, and there’s no reason to respect what anyone else holds as sacred/dear.

Unbelievable.

AxeGrrl, I reeeaally want to leave now. Curiousity is getting the best of me though.

Jews trying to enforce a ‘no eating pork’ law that would affect non-Jews

..is like homosexuals trying to enforce same sex marriage on non-homosexuals…

which is utterly ridiculous.

Newsflash: We the people…One nation, Under God…this ‘democratic republic’ you speak about is run by the Majority. Maybe someone should explain to you how democracy and voting works.
Minorities are protected by rights and laws which are ALREADY in place as stated by the Constitution. This does not include a blanket of protection for rights that “should be”, “may in the future be” or “might” become law. The ‘tyranny of the majority’ has not violated anyone’s right to same-sex marriage because IT DOESN’T EXIST.

You’re free to disagree with it, but you’re not free to try to legally impose your religiously-based disapproval on other people.

FALSE. How about, you’re free to disagree with it, but you’re not free to try to LEGALLY IMPOSE your athiestic-based disapproval on other people. (I bet that statement just sucks now.)
Fact is: we all have the right to fight for whatever it is we believe in.
Spread the bigLOVE! I’m OUT!

Siamang:

Getting gay-married is against your religion? Don’t marry a gay person of your same sex.

I’d say marrying a gay person of the opposite sex is an even worse idea, regardless of your religion.

wheresthebiglove said:

Spread the bigLOVE! I’m OUT!

given your comments on this board, I’d say you’re most definitely NOT ‘out’ 🙂

but there are plenty of people here who would support your move out of that closet! 🙂

and since Siamang so handily dismantled your specious, logically-flaccid reply to my previous points, I feel no need to add further comment.

wheresthebiglove said:

I do agree that things MAY be different in ten years. Maybe then you can tell me to “suck it, we have the majority”

Therein lies the (apparent) difference between us…..

right now, you’re saying ‘suck it, we have the majority‘, but in the future we’ll say ‘isn’t it great that we ALL are treated equally under the law?‘

It’s not that the temple is a secret, it is Sacred. You make certain covenants with God, that are between you and God. Those covenants should not be taken lightly! If you promise God not to disclose the information given in the temple, you shouldn’t. If you made a promise to God, I would not want to be the one to break that. It is sad that people exploit the things that are most sacred to people. It doesn’t matter if it is done with respect or not! They are things that are not supposed to be revealed anywhere but the temple! As Latter Day Saints, we have been ridiculed and prosicuted from the beginning. All we have ever taught is good values. Treating others with respect. It would be nice if everyone could do that.

Thanks for saying that, SomeGuy.

Also, thanks anonymous just above for your added perspective.

I find it interesting that the Anonymous Ex-Mormon above who claims to be the consultant for the show can with such authority state that “secrecy and hidden information is of the past.” I happen to enjoy having sex with my wife in secrecy. I also like to use the bathroom in secrecy. I also think that if someone wants to have a secret ritual, who the hell am I to stop them, as long as it is legal and not harming anyone. I presume that this chicken who has to remain anonymous made a promise never to tell what goes on in the temple when he went through like other Mormons did. Now that he has “graduated” I guess he is entitled to breaking a promise???…..in my book that is a huge lack of integrity.

The simple fact with all this is that if the Mormons want to keep this secret and sacred, any respectful person should leave it alone. To a mormon who holds the ceremony sacred, this is tentamount to spitting in their face. Many of you on this blog may be ok with that, and that is your own problem. I for one would not disrespect you in the same manner.

Why are some people having so much fun at the expense of the Mormon church? Compare what motivates that animosity to what compels church members to spend so much time worshiping God and trying to do good. What motivates us to try daily to worship God? What motivates 60,000 missionaries at any given time to try to spread the gospel through out the world? What motivates us to give of our time and money to help others such as in major catastrophes? Have you ever taken the time to see how much good we really do? What if the motivation to do good really comes from God? What if we are correct in our beliefs? What if there is even the smallest chance our beliefs are true? Could making fun of sacred ceremonies be without eternal consequences? What if the Temple ceremonies really are sacred?

Real quick, Quentin Morford thank you for your comment I appreciate it.

And as Angie pointed out

it won’t be very exciting if it’s portrayed correctly!

If there is any thing you find sensational as a non-member than I can guarantee it is incorrect. By the way 95% of what is imparted in the temple can be found in scripture, which is open for everyone to see.

… and sign me up for the Siamang fan club!

I’m still pleasantly surprised that new arrivals can spot the parrot comments from the mormons:

(from Skippy)

the visiting Moron folks aren’t bothering to read anything beyond the initial blurb at the top of the page. There are so many repetitious comments!

That’s the result of years of indoctrination–you get the same answer over and over and over….

Quentin:

I happen to enjoy having sex with my wife in secrecy. I also like to use the bathroom in secrecy.

Seriously? Do I need to point out the differences in a worlwide organization’s rituals and your intimate encounters with your own wife? Ever heard of comparing apples and oranges? This is one of those times.

Plus, every mormon on here has missed the most obvious point: something can be public knowledge and still be privately sacred. Everyone knows who Jesus is and many mock him far more than even know who mormons are, but I’m sure their knowledge or their mockery do not lessen how you feel about your sacred beliefs regarding Jesus. Or is your faith so small that it does?

also from Quentin:

I presume that this chicken who has to remain anonymous made a promise never to tell what goes on in the temple when he went through like other Mormons did. Now that he has “graduated” I guess he is entitled to breaking a promise???…..in my book that is a huge lack of integrity.

Dude, read the prior comments for pity’s sake. Just take two minutes to even pretend you care what other people say. Please! One of your morgbot friends already said this and it was already responded to. Lack of integrity? You don’t even know him!

There’s documented evidence that the founder of your religion, Joseph Smith, ‘spiritually’ married women who were already married (it’s called polyandry and even BYU”s precious FARMS has an apologetic essay about it–do your research) and you cry lack of integrity on a person you don’t know, but just read a blog comment from. Sounds like you lack integrity if you’re willing to overlook evidence in favor of slandering someone you don’t even know.

Please, mormons, just boycott HBO and Big Love like Monson told you not to (because we all know you will anyway) and be done with it. You’ve added nothing new to the conversation and have even succeeded in showing your true colors to people who may have once been sympathetic to your cause. As it turns out, the more people learn about mormons, the less they want to know. So let’s just skip to the chase and forget all about you and you can go on believing that your church and Utah are the center of the universe.

Iane (re the temple rituals):

If there is any thing you find sensational as a non-member than I can guarantee it is incorrect.

I love a challenge! >:)

How’s this for sensational…
prior to going into the actual endowment ceremony, an initiate must first be washed and annointed and put on the garments of the holy priesthood. What this entails is getting naked, putting on a poncho, going behind a curtain with an old man where he proceeds to pronounce rote blessings over you while he touches you with oil to specifically bless different parts of your body. Luckily, when he blesses your loins, he doesn’t actually touch the fruit itself–just nearby the general area. If that’s not sensational enough for you…

…well, actually it was too sensational for even the so-called prophets of the lord because they changed the ceremony in 2005 so that the initiate is no longer naked–just in his underwear.

Now we’ll let the general public decide if it’s sensational or not, which was of course the original intent of the Big Love writers.

This just in.
Go to http://www.lds.org and right there is a video explaining why we build temples. There is also a link there to the youtube video of the same.

And last I will leave this link to our LDS News Room which says enough that I feel I can now comfortably walk away.
I am sorry if you feel that I invaded your space, it was not my intention.
Thank you to Friendly Atheist for the forum and people like Quentin that I felt tried to be polite on all sides.

Iane:

This just in.
Go to http://www.lds.org and right there is a video explaining why we build temples. There is also a link there to the youtube video of the same.

And last I will leave this link to our LDS News Room which says enough that I feel I can now comfortably walk away.

Thanks for the shameless plug. Celestial points to Iane for his missionary efforts 😉

When I was a missionary for the LDS church it was always our parting shot too–just leave the reading materials with the hardhearted people and walk away. The rest was up to them and the Lord, right? You have washed your hands of the matter…

Thanks for reminding me about this common Mormon tactic–it really takes me back and reminds me why I left mormonism behind and dusted my feet off when I was done. 🙂

See you in the CK, Iane! Maybe we’ll “hie to Kolob” someday and have lunch. Cheers!

@SomeGuy

I am LDS, and if I had lived in California during the last election, I would have voted against Prop 8. I believe the rights we have in this country should be extended to all.

Good for you! If more Xtians were more “live-and-let-live” more atheists would be more inclined to go back in the closet!

So SomeGuy, how did you happen to come by this blog?

*I* was the one who wrote “Moron”, not Beezle, and, whether you believe me or not, it wasn’t intentional, I just missed a letter. I actually didn’t even see it ’til you’d pointed it out. Good eye! Sorry you took such offense to my typo.

As far as reading the comments, I read them all… it took a *really* long time too! What I was commenting on was how similar all the LDS answers were, with maybe 2-3 visitors leaving more in-depth comments. You being one, lane. 🙂

The reason I’d mentioned it was because, in scrolling through the comments, it’s difficult to ignore numerous comments that say the same thing (albeit, worded slightly differently) over and over again.

It’s been mentioned prior, but, you ask about whether anyone here has had a discussion with someone other than a “ex-Mormon”, and, that’s something that too, has been addressed earlier. Many times.

So, I ask, are there any points you think ought to be clarified that haven’t been? Would you be able to refute any claims made by ex-Mormons that you disagree with?

Siamang – I’m totally gonna make up some buttons an’ everything! ^_^

Old Beezle, sorry I did not take the time to read each and every comment. I read most and skimmed others. Wish I was a faster reader, but I am not.

Let me respond to your comments:

You stated: “Seriously? Do I need to point out the differences in a worlwide organization’s rituals and your intimate encounters with your own wife? Ever heard of comparing apples and oranges? This is one of those times.”

The fact of the matter is that even though it is a worldwide organization it is still a private organization. True, it is open to whoever wants to join, but it private (not public) none-the-less. That being the case, whatever they choose to keep as secret, as long as it is legal, is their prerogative and should be respected. Simple enough?

My point in comparing that with my own intimate secrecy is that being a private individual I am entitled to my privacy. Pretty apples to apples if you ask me. If you would like another comparison, try trade secrets within business. Just because a manager leaves a company, he is not at liberty to divulge those secrets.

That leads me to my next point: I don’t need to personally know Bernie Madoff to know that he lacks integrity. I don’t need to know anyone personally that has taken trade secrets and sold them illegally to come to a conclusion that thy lack integrity. Same applies to Anonymous who was paid to be a consultant and divulge things he promised to keep secret. His choice, but still a promise is a promise.

For your reference Webster defines Integrity as follows: 1 : firm adherence to a code of especially moral or artistic values

I am pretty confident in how I characterized Anonymous.

@lane:

I feel like I a explaining quantum physics to someone taking Algebra 1

That is not a little condescending, no? (P.S. I think you have the situation exactly backward.)

I don’t know how to explain somethings unless you too have had my experiences.

Many people here have had experiences nearly extremely similar to that which you gave in your testimony. Some even gave your particular denomination a fair go. Do you not see the arrogance in expecting your view point to be taken at face value when you are so dismissive of the perspective of others?

It is obvious that most people do not want our testimonies here so it seems silly to do so

Yet, despite how obviously silly it was, you gave us testimony anyway! To your credit, your written testimony is a lot more coherent than the ones which have been delivered to me (also unbidden) in person. I do not think it fair to blame the medium for your inability to be persuasive.

Your testimony did explain a few things. You are a relatively new Mormon, as opposed to a lifer, so you are willing to engage honestly, and you still have habits of rational inquiry. You were spared the more extreme aspects of Mormon ritual, and you are focus on where LDS is now rather than its early history. Your path to LDS is perfectly understandable and reasonable, and has provide you great comfort at little apparent cost. It is natural that you would want to share this good news. I find it ironic though, that when your arguments fall flat, you tried the script response anyway, even though it was obviously silly!

Really lane, you are doing as well as you could hope for. The real problem is that your position, that your religious convictions compel you to work against basic fundamental human rights of others outside your group, is morally bankrupt.

Lane said, “This is cheesy but how do you tell someone that has never tasted salt, what it tastes like? How do you explain to a blind man the difference between blue, red, and yellow? We come from different backgrounds and beliefs and half of the problem for me is how to translate it into a language others can understand, even if they don’t agree with it.”

Let me ask in return, have YOU ever tried to put yourself in the place of someone who is gay? Have you ever tried to imagine loving someone, wanting to dedicate your life to this person, only to be told by society that your love was illegitimate, sinful, a perversion, and not worthy of recognition?

Let me say that I was Mormon 40 years, served a mission, attended the temple many times, and am intimately familiar with how Mormon culture conditions people to think and speak. I understand your point of view fully (indeed, I used to think and say the same). But I can also tell you that once I actually tried to see the world from others’ perspectives, that I realized the shallow, intolerant, unempathetic, ego-centric, and misguided Mormon world view.

I know all too well what your salt tastes like, and that is why I spit it out.

Why don’t you practice what you preach? Imagine yourself in the shoes of a gay person, imagine what he/she feels, try to see the world from his/her perspective, and then report back here and bring us word.

That is not a little condescending, no? (P.S. I think you have the situation exactly backward.)

Wouldn’t you say telling me the situation is reversed make you the condescending one? 🙂 But yes I am sorry it was the first thing that came to mind, perhaps more like me explaining J2EE coding practices to my friend who is a lawyer.

So yes I gave my testimony, sue me. I guess I am relatively new if 12 years still puts me in that category. Look sometimes what you call ‘the script response’ is in fact the response, 1+1=2, why would I say it equals 12?

The real problem is that your position, that your religious convictions compel you to work against basic fundamental human rights of others outside your group, is morally bankrupt.

And if I believe someone elses position is ‘morally corrupt’ then I should just let them remain that way? To use the analogy, if someone is asleep in a burning building should I just let them try and get their good night sleep? And yes the building is burning, it is not my imagination, so do not try that angle, that is a steel wall.

Let me ask in return, have YOU ever tried to put yourself in the place of someone who is gay?

Yes indeed I have. I have thought a lot about it and talked with a couple that has been together for 20yrs. I don’t agree with their lifestyle, and they accept that. I agreed that they should be able to share benefits and see each other in the hospital when the other is sick, and they agreed to let me keep the word marriage. This is my whole point, in case you missed it, for returning marriage to the church and let everyone hetro or homo to have a domestic partnership. The couple I talked to felt that the gay community was causing themselves more damage by taking on the secular institution of marriage and not just getting their legal rights to partnership instituted.
And as I recall the church has said they will not stand against domestic partnerships, doesn’t sound like Mormons are being directed to deny you any legal rights.

Have you ever tried to imagine loving someone, wanting to dedicate your life to this person, only to be told by society that your love was illegitimate, sinful, a perversion, and not worthy of recognition?

Hmm, I think that I have been told that my temple sealing means nothing, that Mormons are a perversion. In fact I got a message on youtube yesterday accusing me of being a worshiper of satan. We might not have an extermination order out on us anymore, but do not suppose that we are not hated by many. I may be a ‘relatively new’ Mormon but I have been shouted at and cursed, and you know what I loved those people anyway and tried to respect that they are doing what they feel is right, cursing them back is pointless and only soils me.

When I was a missionary for the LDS church it was always our parting shot too–just leave the reading materials with the hardhearted people and walk away. The rest was up to them and the Lord, right? You have washed your hands of the matter.

And what else do you do when someone spits in your face Beezle, which is exactly what you did with your little ‘challenge’ thing. I am washing my hands of you, but not the rest of the people here. I simply provided a link to information, the root of this is what HBO is doing so I provided links to the official response, as I give my own here.

Just out of curiosity what is everyone else’s position? I am a Mormon of 12years that grew up in a highly liberal, agnostic home. Are you ex-Mormon now Born again, or Atheist, or have you always been an Atheist? If not an Atheist, then how did you get here, and what is your motivation? Us Mormons have been asked these questions so I feel it is only fair to get the same information.
Perhaps if I know your background I can respond to your questions trying to view things from your perspective and avoid being accidentally insulting.

Quentin:

The fact of the matter is that even though it is a worldwide organization it is still a private organization. True, it is open to whoever wants to join, but it private (not public) none-the-less. That being the case, whatever they choose to keep as secret, as long as it is legal, is their prerogative and should be respected. Simple enough?

see my above post to Iane about disclosure if you care for the full answer.

And no it’s not apples to apples when the church involves thousands in one ‘sacred’ situation, like the temple, and wants to involve more compared to your ‘intimate/sacred’ relations with your wife which is, and always will be, just between the two of you. Besides–no one wants those details about you and your wife because they are just yours. The temple experience belongs to many.

@Quentin

I don’t need to personally know Bernie Madoff to know that he lacks integrity. I don’t need to know anyone personally that has taken trade secrets and sold them illegally to come to a conclusion that thy lack integrity.

What if Bernie Madoff had sworn people to secrecy about what he was doing – do you think it would still be the right thing for the people who knew what he was doing to keep that secret?

Keeping a secret is that shouldn’t be kept doesn’t show integrity, it shows cowardice. If it weren’t for whistleblowers, who risk their livelihood and sometimes their lives to bring things out into the open, the world would be a far worse place.

And for those of you who are about to assert that these particular secrets are harmless – that can’t be proved until they are out in the open. Say it all you want, I don’t have to believe it until you prove it.

@lane

Twelve years huh? Got kids? I mean it is one thing for a free willed adult sign up with a secretive group. Subjecting children to that though really raises the ante.

And if I believe someone elses position is ‘morally corrupt’ then I should just let them remain that way?

Actually, sometimes, Yes! Is the someone else forcing you to adopt their lifestyle? Are they hurting animals or child or non-concenting adults? Preaching is one thing. Passing laws against them is something else.

To use the analogy, if someone is asleep in a burning building should I just let them try and get their good night sleep?

How about an analog that is much closer? It was not so long ago that inter-ractial marriage was illegal in many places in this country. The majority felt that it was immoral, and proper to keep it illegal. Many felt as deeply in their conviction about this as you do about gay marriage. They had the backing of their church, and many stridently advocated to maintain the status quo. Were they right?

This is my whole point, in case you missed it, for returning marriage to the church and let everyone hetro or homo to have a domestic partnership.

I didn’t miss it and I commented about that when you first raised the idea here, but you didn’t reply. You can’t ask for something to be returned if you never owned it! Actually, I do not disagree with you on the idea, but the tactic to discriminate against same sex couples in the mean time is still reprehensible, and the one has nothing to do with the other.

If you were sincere on this idea, you would (1) leave the gays alone, and (2) propose legislation on the Federal and state level proposing statutes that substitute “civil union” for “marriage”. But you are not doing either of things!

Some people, both straight and gay, think broadened domestic partnership laws would be good enough, but they are mistaken. Where that has been tried, it has not worked well.

Your idea to retroactively rename civil marriages as domestic partnerships is a good thought exercise, but obviously impractical. It would be much more reasonable for religious organizations to create “marriage plus” for their membership. Whatever rules LDS or whoever wants for “marriage plus” is up to them.

Here, Joseph, I’ll help you out on this one to show my [ahem] Christian Courage:

Robert Hales:

Our aim should be to help them understand the truth, not defend our egos or score points in a theological debate. Our heartfelt testimonies are the most powerful answer we can give our accusers…

Looks like most mormons here already followed their marching orders and just bore their testimonies. What the LDS church leadership knows is that the sharing of a testimony really just strengthens the person saying it (because then they don’t have to think of a real answer–they just have to repeat the same testimony they’ve been taught to build and cultivate all their lives)…and then they don’t have to (to borrow a phrase from Mr. Hales) listen as the “devil laughs.”

No, Lone Danite, it just so happens that exmormons want to be able to tell their side of the story too and Big Love has given them the opportunity. They don’t hate you any more than you hate them.

Why do you say that mormons are an easy target?

Tom Hanks opposed prop 8. He is angry about mormons. He is the executive producer of Big Love. I think he’s probably trying to make them mad. Sounds like it’s working.

Sounds like retaliation.

Joseph said:

I could take the time and exploit your rhetoric and manipulate your words and loop holes.

Well thank God you didn’t and instead adhered to Mr. Hales’ advice to:

not defend our egos or score points in a theological debate

Looks like you get to spare me the lash and “follow the prophet” at the same time. It’s so rare to get a win-win situation. I’m happy for you. 🙂

I am an athesist fan of Big Love, mostly I watch it b/c it astounds how people will cling to a belief as if it is some how true; suspending all reason.

People with religious beliefs want others to respect their right to believe in whatever diety, sacrament or experience they consider sacred.

We don’t respect people’s beliefs regarding history, if someone came to you and said no the vikings were not the first europeans to land in North America, we would disagree with them, b/c the data is imperical you can’t argue with it.

There is nothing imperical about religion, its all about belief. Belief was fine in the middle ages when people had limited knowledge of how the world worked but what are our excuses now?

I was once a religious person, I even have the mastersin theology to prove it, but once you start critically review not only the theological test but the literature upon which its foundation was built you see that it is nothing more than a bunch of stories. From the book of mormon to the “old testament to the Jesus myths all of it is nothing more than stories we tell our selves to console us through living and to cope with the unknowing of death.

When will we grow up.

As a practicing Mormon in good standing with the church and able to attend the temple, I find it hilarious that there are so many misconceptions about Mormons, or Latter Day Saints. A)True Latter Day Saints no longer practice polygamy. B) Latter Day Saints are not concerned about secrecy in the temple but keeping what happens in the temple SACRED. There is a difference. I’m finding that there are a lot of brothers, sisters, cousins, friends, etc that are offended for not being allowed to attend wedding ceremonies and funerals (not sure about a funeral because they are held in a public meeting house)at the temple because they do not believe in the ordinances. I’m confused as to why someone who doesn’t believe in the ordinances would want to attend, or cry about not being involved in the ordinance. The LDS church does not exclude ANYONE! Everyone is invited to live according to the beliefs of Latter Day Saints. and anyone can enter the temple if they live according to these beliefs. My mother was unable to attend my temple marriage, but she knew it was important to me and would never be offended because I chose to have my wedding in the temple. Airing a sacred ordinance on tv where (let’s face it, the numbers aren’t that great for Big Love) there’s a miniscule populous viewing it, doesn’t make the ordinance any less sacred to those that believe it. It just proves that there’s an interest in it. If you are curious about the sacredness of the temple I would talk to the LDS missionaries or at least a member of the church that actually knows how special a place it is. It cracks me up that the producers are so proud of having an ex-mormon on set to verify the authenticity of the ordinance. I wouldn’t trust an “Ex” anything to be an authorative figure seeing as they are “Ex” for a reason. He may be a disgruntled guy trying any way he can to shed the church in a bad light. Just be wary of so called “authorities”. The most important thing to remember is that it’s not about secrecy in the temples, it’s about what happens being sacred.

Big Love has hit the nail on the head about Mormonism. Mormons still believe in polygamy and still practice it today.I live among the Mormons, I have family that are Mormons, I was Mormon for 42 years, I served a Mormon mission. Mormons want to hide the fact that they still practice polygamy. A man can marry many wives in the temple and they will be his in life after death. If you want to know about Mormons go to http://www.utlm.org/ start at the beginning of Mormonism with Joseph Smith. Read the facts that the Mormons wont tell you. Joseph the founder had over 33 wives himself many young teen girls, others that he stole from married men. BIG LOVE is very accurate. and the ceremony at the temple even though it was a short snip it was dead on!!!

Travis:

I wouldn’t trust an “Ex” anything to be an authorative figure seeing as they are “Ex” for a reason. He may be a disgruntled guy trying any way he can to shed the church in a bad light. Just be wary of so called “authorities”.

First of all, read the multitude of other posts that have already addressed the issue of mormon distrust and labeling of those who have chosen to leave the ‘compound.’ You simply don’t like what former mormons have to say because they tell the flattering the unflattering alike.

For example, we (as former mormons) will talk about the temple openly and honestly with people when they ask. We will discuss the similarities between mormon ritual and symbols and Masonic ones. We will discuss how inappropriate the touching was during the washing and the annointing (pre-2005 changes) and how it was a violation rather than a spiritual experience as we were told it would be. And, yes, there were changes to the temple ordinance rituals over the years and we will discuss those as well.

(Travis):

The most important thing to remember is that it’s not about secrecy in the temples, it’s about what happens being sacred.

Thanks for reminding us what every other mormon who has posted to this blog has said (almost as if they were all taught to say the same thing…) We get it…you hold your rituals sacred just like every other religion on the planet does their own. You still won’t talk about them and that still makes them a secret.

When can we expect HBO to produce a movie or series about the life of Mohammed. Perhaps they could get Antonio Banderas to play Mohammed?

Lone Danite:

When can we expect HBO to produce a movie or series about the life of Mohammed. Perhaps they could get Antonio Banderas to play Mohammed?

I’d love to see that! Good casting too 🙂

Hey, can you blame HBO for not wanting to bring a fatwah down on their heads and possibly expose their employees to violence? Theo Van Gogh, a Dutch film maker, made a ten-minute movie about Islam called Submission and he was murdered for it in 2004.

Salman Rushdie wrote a great book (yeah, not quite a movie) on the foibles of Mohammed and the early days of Islam: The Satanic Verses. And, yes, some of the Islamic leaders did call for his death because of it.

Luckily for HBO, mormons are peaceful and believe in turning the other cheek if they feel bruised. How the truth can possibly be called an offense to them is an entirely different conversation…oh, wait, just read the comments above! We’ve covered it in glorious detail.

Travis:

We had a ring ceremony outside of the temple that everyone was able to attend. My mother was totally okay with it

FYI – you did not mention the ring ceremony in your prior post so that may be why you received the reaction you did from GullWatcher.

Travis:

The LDS church does not exclude ANYONE! Everyone is invited to live according to the beliefs of Latter Day Saints.

I take this this to mean that people WILL BE excluded if they do not adhere to LDS doctrine. So, in effect, mormons exclude non-mormons. Glad we’re clear on that.

That’s ok though–it’s well within your rights to worship as you will and believe as you do. That’s not what the entire Big Love discussion was about though. The issue is that mormons acted as if Big Love had no right to show the temple ceremony. Explain to me why they CANNOT show the ceremony instead of why you believe they SHOULD NOT.

Then you can address the question that Siamang asked ages ago in the early days of this blogathon (the reference to the question is in the last sentence of the last paragraph).

Siamang:

Actually I defend your right to believe. I just don’t defend your actual beliefs, nor would you mine.

However, I think you are *asking* me to defend your right to believe that temple ceremonies should never be portrayed in fiction. This seems a lot like asking me to take part in a religious rule, even though I am not a member of your religion.

Nobody here has even attempted, as far as I can see, to explain why I should take up that belief as my own. Nobody here has explained what possible activity my (ficticious) atheist club might do that would be held just as sacrosanct by LDS that they would never offend it, talk about it, portray it in fiction, speak against it, etc.

Thanks, old beezle. I had wondered if anyone was keeping the fire burning on that unanswered question.

The fact that it remains unanswered, 359 responses into the thread, is actually all the answer I require.

The answer is this: The Mormons posting here demand respect they are unwilling to reciprocate for others. I think that boils the original argument of this thread down nicely.

WOW! so many comments from people that don’t even watch the show… WATCH THE SHOW AND THEN COMENT!! Polygamy is wrong when practiced Joseph Smith STYLE! I truly feel he was a fraud.. but for the sake of the MORMONS>>. polygamy does have a stance.. listen!!!

Many men have afairs with women that just do it for the lust.. true? yes it is so if a man in mormonism desides to marry another woman as a second wife praise be to him! he is honoring her and making her worthy on to yhe LORD what is the problem?

If she is over 18 and says yes it is ok with the first wife, and as long as there is a limit what is the problem? I know many women over 40 that would go for this !

Now here’s the kicker:

Despite the mormon church and mormons refusing to discuss what goes on in their temples and taking offense should others attempt to discuss or show the ceremonies, their stated goal is to get everyone into their temples–either in person or by proxy after you have died. They want it both ways–for everyone to participate yet no one be allowed to discuss it.

Old Beezle,
Why the chip on your shoulder? Did a Mormon offend you in some way? What’s your affiliation with the Church Of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints? Are you an excommunicated member of the church? disgruntled? Or just one of those mean people with nothing better to do than tear down what you don’t understand?

by the way….I’m not offended. I’m too secure in my life to be offended by someone who simply doesn’t understand what they are talking about.

I’m simply trying to understand where your coming from Beezle. In my experience, people who have left the church have done so not because of the doctrine, but because they were offended by someone. How long after you went through the temple were you a member of the church? You didn’t take temple prep classes to prepare you for the temple? Were you raised in the church? if not, how long after you were baptized did you go to the temple?

Travis, you’re going to find something that will justify for you my departure from the church. Your questions are not intended to better understand my point of view, but instead to cement in your mind your own point of view. I left because I realized the church is not true. You stay because you believe it to be true.

I will answer the questions for you since you will not:

Is a person able to make better decisions with more information?

Yes.

Therefore people should be able to learn everything and anything about the mormon temple ceremonies so that they can make the best informed decision for themselves.

When doing research is it better to use a single source or multiple sources?

Multiple sources.

Therefore people should investigate the LDS church thouroughly using not just what the official missionaries or the members of the church say, but what former members and third parties say as well. This applies to doctrine as well as history.

Since I have answered these questions myself, feel free to address the one Siamang posed ages ago:

what possible activity my (ficticious) atheist club might do that would be held just as sacrosanct by LDS that they would never offend it, talk about it, portray it in fiction, speak against it, etc.

Only got a moment but I would like to say thank you to HBO I have had three discussions with different people, none of which were shocked and all expressed a respect for the church. I gave two a book of mormons out and they are all interested in learning more 🙂
Now I have to feed my three children whom I will corrupt with a prayer were we ask a blessing on those who suffer and probably the missionaries if my son says it.
Next tonight I have to work on a sunday school lesson and a sharing time lesson, yeah me. Must corrupt children with talk about charity.
Everyone have a beautiful night. I’ll try to think harder about the next discussion, just wanted to say thanks to HBO for a wonderful past few days.

You know, regardless of what the mormons believe, or how you feel about their beliefs, they are still allowed to keep something that is highly sacred to them private. I was a church member almost my whole life, when at 18, I decided that I didn’t belive in it. I have never been through an endowment ceremony, although I do have a general knowledge of what occurrs. However, my mother, brother, 2 sisters and their husbands have all been through it, and I have never once asked them or felt the need to ask them any of the private details of what it was like for them. That is THEIR business. It is about THEIR relationship with God and Jesus, not about what the mormon church teaches about God and Jesus. I think that if people want to know what’s going on in the temple, they should be given/find out the basic facts…..which are available through any mormon you may know, or their website. The only problem with showing just a small part of this ceremony on television for the general public to see, is that it’s not taken in the proper context. I understand that it’s not a huge part of the show, it doesn’t go into extreme detail, and that it’s not claiming to be a major part of everything mormons believe, but I personally think that the biggest issue is that it’s NOT any of those things. When I was still Mormon, I was not ready, nor was i worthy to participate in such a ceremony(and by not worthy, I mean I didn’t have a good relationship with god, or kept any rules), and it would have taken a lot of time and preparation to be able to do so. But, do they explain on the show what this character had to do in order to become endowed? Do they show the committments she had to make, and her personal beliefs and testimony? I don’t think that actually showing it will be the thing that upsets mormons, I just think that treating it as a flashback feature, when it is something that is a very personal experience isn’t right or fair. I’m not knocking the show at all, I just don’t think that they really had any idea……….
I just think it’s kind of ironic that i was a mormon, and was actually very close to being endowed, and am in no way curious, but all of these athiests are just dying for a chance to see what those crazy mormons are really up to 🙂 maybe, if your so curious about other people’s religions, you should actually try to find what’s missing in your life, instead of being so concerned with what makes other people happy??

Thank you so much for your comment Kathryn I really appreciate it.

So what was all the fuss about…???

While yes I made lemonade out of lemons and publicity ain’t bad it is still the fact that it is sacred to me. Some one tried to peek in my window and show a quick glimpse without all the details.
I have learned from this though that Elder Hale is right it will all blow over and just gives us more opportunities.
This forum gave me the chance to explain the difference between spiritual plural marriage and mortal plural marriage, which the church’s does not sanction. But when someone tells the half truth of “Mormons still practice polygamy” They always seem to fail mentioning that it is not in this mortal life, and therefore if you do not believe in our form of heaven than it is null and void.
Beezle information is a great thing when you have all the information. I quite enjoy the non church documentaries that come at it from both sides and lay it all out. I understand that when it is totally church produced people question the validity, but also when there is no chance for the church to state it’s case in unison with the detractors, Big Love, it creates a lack of information. People watch HBO and see one fictional version, but there is no show after wards, and no one is going to turn to a church station, to hear the other side. When you investigate the church you should take the time to look at both sides.

One sided information is near worthless. I respect everyone for asking their questions it has been a pleasure to discuss/debate. I wish we could all see each other face to face since I am sure I have missed answering some questions in the shuffle.

Hey Old Beezle we still gonna

“hie to Kolob” someday and have lunch.

?

@Kathryn

I just think it’s kind of ironic that i was a mormon, and was actually very close to being endowed, and am in no way curious, but all of these athiests are just dying for a chance to see what those crazy mormons are really up to

What is wrong with these Mormons who come here, that they are just completely incapable of understanding a point. No one else has taken up this particular stupidity, although Kathryn is not the only one to mention it.

So here you go: we don’t give a damn. Atheists in general don’t want to know what goes on in your ceremonies. I can think of a million things I would rather learn about. That’s not the point.

The point is, the information about what actually happens should be freely available to anyone who wants or needs it, that HBO is well within their rights to show a ficitionalized version, and the protectionism currently given to religions (such as immunity from criticism or examination) needs to stop.

Seriously, your religion and its rituals interests me not at all.

@Travis

It’s extremly sad when a country that was built on religious freedom no longer adhere’s to its foundation. We mock other peoples religions, hold nothing sacred or even just show compassion and RESPECT FOR RELIGIOUS PRACTICES…

I think it’s really sad when people misrepresent freedom of religion. All it means is you get to practice your religion. It doesn’t mean I am compelled to have any respect for it, or even to pretend I do.

Neither does it give your religion the immunity from criticism or examination that you seem to feel is some sort of right. It’s absolutely not, and all your outrage and moaning won’t make it so.

I’ve seen things like this before. Years back some bonehead got baptized in Arizona just so he could wait a year to get a temple recommend, and go through temple prep classes just so he could tape-record the endowment ceremony and write a couple articles about it. I think that one got a week of publicity, made some people upset, and ultimately did no harm to the Church.

I mean, what a waste of effort. He could have gone to any embittered ex-lds (not all ex-mormons are bitter anti-mormons) to get the details and saved himself the trouble (that’s what everyone else does).

It’s the same deal here. Information about the temple has been posted by antis for years on the internet. What a waste.

The fact of the matter is that these things tend to have the lifespan of a housefly. Most people who watched saw things they did not understand at the surface level let alone at the deeper symbolic levels that require years of temple service to truly understand.

It’s upsetting that sacred things are taken out of their proper setting, and those who hold these things sacred have reason to feel hurt or violated. But as usual it will come to nothing.

@ lane

I am sure I have missed answering some questions in the shuffle.

I would very much like to hear your response to my inquires about marriage politics.

I have another question for you. Given (1) your own experience of the disconnect between the temple preparation classes and the “high weirdness” of your first actual ceremony, and (2) Old Beezle’s testimony how that lie of omission was the tip of the wedge which drove him from the church — Will you discretely warn your own children, or accept the risk of your children being disaffected?

Zar was making a joke!!!!!!!!!! I can’t believe that people didn’t get it — this is too funny!

HBO needs to consider this–if they had done some depiction of the hajj to Mecca, complete with the ceremonies around the ka’aba and such, there would have been suicide bombings around the HBO studios, and before it ever would have happened, HBO would have pulled the plug out of “sensitivity.”

Also, the apron is green, not blue. Wonder how they got that detail wrong.

Offending, persecuting and showing bigotry toward Mormons is politically correct and acceptable. Something that is not true for other groups. Something to consider.

@ KellyH:

Also, the apron is green, not blue. Wonder how they got that detail wrong.

I guess it hasn’t crossed your mind that they did it on purpose. C’mon, I knew about the green aprons when I was a teenager either by going to funerals where the deceased was wearing it or seeing it as part of people’s ‘temple kit.’ They didn’t get it wrong–they changed it. I don’t know why.

Offending, persecuting and showing bigotry toward Mormons is politically correct and acceptable. Something that is not true for other groups. Something to consider.

Wow–you must have read that essay that floated around Facebook–The Last Acceptable Prejudice. What tripe.

Mitt Romney himself insulted people with “no faith” while he was campaigning for the presidential nomination. Religion discriminates against no religion routinely. Remember that the next time you see a cross on a hill or a ten commandments plaque in a park or near a goverment building. Remember it when you look at the Church office building in downtown SLC and realize it’s one of the tallest around. Remember it when you hear about the Utah liquor laws–laws that restrict the sale and concentration of alcohol not for the religious majority who do not even imbibe it, but for the gentiles who so happen to share the state with the mormons.

As a mormon, you just happen to belong to one of the smaller and stranger religious sects and therefore get disapproving looks from the religious and non-religious alike. Remember when Hinckley talked about being a ‘peculiar’ people as if it was something to be proud of? Well be proud of it and stop crying persecution already.

I am a latter day saint. I am a convert to the LDS church. When I was alone sick and suicidal, my mormon neighbors helped me, loved me and served me. I do now attend the temple and cherish it with all my heart. I simply want you to know that the majority of mormons are dissapionted and un comforatable with the sacred temple ordinances being shown on TV. Most of us will not act out in anger. It hurts me that something so special to me is being disrespected. I beleive however that we as mormons will love and care for ALL those around us despite their beleifs or life styles. I respect you and your right to choose your beleifs. I pray for you everyday. I beleive this will only make us stronger. We will still help with disaster releif. We will still love our neighbors. We will still serve on missions. We will still share the gospel of Jesus Christ and we will share the love of Christ with all. The Big Love Show will soon fade and this episode will lose its luster. But from my own personal experience When you are down and out or sad or hungry the latterday saints and your heavenly father will still care for you. Lets not get caught up in another argument about what different people do or beleive. I challenge you to ovoid contention and seek God. there is no real Joy in hurting any person or group of people. There is however accountability with God our father for hurting others,or not loving your neighbors. I beleive God will be sad and dissapionted in this violation of the sacredness of his temple and ordinances. May the love of Christ be with you.

you just can’t argue with stupidity.

You hit the nail right on the head! 🙂

Thanks for regurgitating what every other mormon said. Did you even take the time to read any of the posts????

P.S. the ties between Masonry and mormon temple ritual are well documented and the signs, tokens, and symbols are almost identical. Even the iconic beehive was a Masonic symbol before a Utah one. If you want a mormon-approved source, then here it is:
http://www.fairlds.org/Misc/Similarities_between_Masonic_and_Mormon_Temple_Ritual.html

That will get you to the FAIR website where they attempt to defend the mormon faith. Check it out…you’ll learn a thing or two.

Just wanted to add another emphasis that it isn’t “secret”, but sacred. If people can’t respect that they are of little significance when it comes down to it.

I’ve been on both sides of the Mormon persecution reality. Once, as an avid Mormon basher, and now on the receiving end, as a faithful member, having learned many great life lessons that matured me.

It is real.

The points made by beezle, about religion discriminating against non-religion amount to pissing in the wind. Non-religion discriminates against religion too. In fact, male discriminates against female, and female to male. Vegans discriminate against meat eaters, and meat eaters to vegans. Druggies discriminate against non-druggies. Such is the nature of opposites.

Mitt Romney may have struck a wrong cord with you, but you obviously have some easy to push button that you wait to whine about getting pushed –this is what your posts tell of you– but he in no way violated any etiquette as pertaining to political campaigning, keeping his religion separate from the office he was running for. The media did all the “exclusions” and “discrimination” on him, as there was an attempt from them, and from Huckster and the “born again” world to discredit him because of his religion. Outright hypocrisy.

The “none of your business” attitude about the temple is to protect those who are not ready for such information. Some people won’t get it and it will be more of a stumbling block for them than a blessing of knowledge, and so should not have access to make the covenants. Especially if there is some huge, unresolved sin there, to help block the spirituality of it all -which is the only way to really “get it”. Besides, it really is not anybodies business, except those who prepare for and respect it. At least respect others beliefs and leave them alone about it.

P.S. this is not just to you, beezle, but to the kind of people who don’t get the concept of sacred things not being broadcast for anyone to see. The whole, “casting pearls before swine” concept.

It’s not that it is secret…it’s sacred. Period. not all members are even allowed to participate or enter the temple. You have to be an exemplary member of the church and live your life like Christ would in order to enter the temple.

By law all religious activities that are practiced in the US are kept in the Library of Congress…you can read about all of our sacred practices there.

BIG LOVE is a mockery of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Mormons are NOT pologymist anymore and haven’t been for 200 years. FYI. if you want information on something you should probably seek the source and not a false TV show.

go to http://www.lds.org for real information about LDS people and their beliefs.

I just wanted to add my two cents to this blog about Big Love. I personally have enjoyed watching the series and I’m amazed at how accurate everything is. While the show does mingle the LDS portion (the temple ceremony scene) with the F-LDS (basically their day to day lives) I can only comment on my experience as a Mormon. I think the confusion in the story line is that these characters are complex and come from different backgrounds. Barb was raised in a traditional Mormon (LDS) family but then she married Bill who was the fundamentalist side. Both sides however do practice very similar teachings. That is why their marriage works. They believe in the principles that families are forever and that you follow the guidance of your priesthood holder. I think if you are not Mormon or F-LDS, these small details are lost and confused on the public. I can understand why the Mormons would get so upset because they always have to defend the difference between the LDS and the F-LDS churches and are taught to keep the ceremonies secret from the public.

From my experience being raised Mormon (I still have my immediate family practicing the Mormon religion to this day)i can attest that this religion is very male chaveunist and really wants their followers to live every rule to the inth degree. My experience growing up in the church was a very positive one. Then I married someone who joined the church in his 20’s and my marriage was a complete disaster. I begged for help and support from the church leaders and was basically shunned or ignored. This experience changed the way that I felt about the church. I can relate to Barb’s character as she struggles with her beliefs and is trying to find her way in this world. It is tough being in the Mormon church as women just are not treated the same as men and we are taught to be subsurvient to our priesthood leaders. I’ve had mixed emotions while watching the show as it has brought up a ton of painful memories but I also enjoy the characters and appreciate how they all stick together and support one another in the end. I think these values are sorely missed in the world. I appreciate many of the principles that I was taught however I struggle with some of the things the leaders ask of us or who they support so I cannot and will not ever get involved in the church again. I believe that anyone should have a right to practice whatever religion they want. I did go to the temple often but I also had a hard time understanding the ceremonies and thought they were weird. I personally think that is the way that the Mormons keep their members in line by dangling their “worthiness to go to the temple” to all the members so they can always have another level of spirituality to go. I know every religion is full of symbols and particular ceremonies. I think the Mormons have more than a few. Religion is a very personal matter and I think you should be able to practice in it in what ever way you choose. I look forward to seeing what path these characters will be going next. I think it has been good to get this topic out in the open.