The Ugly Side of Modesty

Frankly if a person is looking at an eight year old girl sexually I think there’s a bigger problem than whether her teeshirt rode up a bit too much or whether her shorts were too short.

I also find this topic amusing since I’m lazing around in low hanging pj bottoms an a small strappy top which bears quite a bit of my ‘intoxicating’ belly and my grown up, ‘immodest’, stumble-inducing, and frankly pretty awesome cleavage. And I couldn’t give two hoots.

“Frankly if a person is looking at an eight year old girl sexually I
think there’s a bigger problem than whether her teeshirt rode up a bit
too much or whether her shorts were too short.”

Exactly. The people who wrote these “fashion tests” obviously don’t realize just how creepy they are. Not to mention the people responsible for posing those young girls for the photos. shiver

Pretty much every Atheist agrees that religion harms women. The debate in the Atheist blogs is about women’s issues in the rest of society. Sometimes the women’s issues brought up are both factually accurate and something to be concerned about and sometimes they not factually accurate and exaggerated. But I think the reason why you’ve been seeing the push back from some men is that there has been a big increase in discussion of gender issues as they apply to women and little to no discussion of gender issues as they apply to men. The men feel that this is a bias way of looking at things. They feel that if it is so important for society to get rid of female gender stereotypes, then why aren’t male gender stereotypes receiving the same attention?

They left something out of the underwear one: If you’re
worried about panty lines, just wear a thong!
 

Although I didn’t grow up in the purity culture, my school experience with my mom’s idea of modesty parallels yours.

By age 19 when I was working and buying my own clothes the “rebound effect”, was obvious.  I wore super-tight clothes with high heels and only styles that screamed, “I am sexy!”.  It was ridiculous, and it took years for me to be confident WITHOUT making men spin their heads.

It’s not about “men’s issues” versus “women’s issues” and trying to make it about that is just reinforcing the old gender divisions that are the problem we’re trying to solve. It’s usually the same issues that harm everyone, and the same solutions that we need to work towards, together, to solve them.

I stopped reading at “future cleavage”. Seriously?

I mean – I’m a guy, and I know that my eyes are sometimes attracted to a “flash”, before I get a chance to figure out what I’m looking at. Animal, vegetable, mineral, whatever – if something catches your eye. you look first and ask questions later. It doesn’t mean anything – it’s just an artifact of my ancestors’ existence on the plains of Africa, hunting for antelope hiding in the long grass.

It would not be an excuse if I was to behave badly, but it never gets to that point, since I was brought up to respect women and to think before I do anything. These Bronze Age types need to learn that they are not the slaves of their eyes. If you think you see sexuality, it doesn’t mean that it’s actually there.

I did grow up in that culture and ran from it as fast as I could once I moved out of my mothers house. I’m 25  and just now am becoming comfortable in wearing a swim suit in public w/out covering up with a large t-shirt. Just to give others another firsthand insight to her story. It can be that intense.

Women suffer disproportionately more than men with issues such as rape, ‘modesty’, birth control, and sexism. That’s why they’re called women’s issues, and that’s why they deserve to be discussed in a women-focused context.

It fits right in with the purity craze where fathers obsesses over their daughters’ virginity and then go on dates with them at “purity balls”

So then why do schools have dress codes? Why don’t we all just run around naked to begin with? I guess it’s classy to run around dressed like a slut? 

I for one do NOT want to see some dude’s pants sagging down doing the prison sag so I can see his 3/4 of his boxers or thongs poking out the top of someone’s low riding jeans or someone’s bra cup sticking out the top of their tank top. 

I completely understand that the fashion/modesty police can take it too far and we can sit hear and argue about the motivation for modesty, but come on. A person can’t just “hang out there” in public can they? How is that appropriate? Think about public transportation? I’m pretty sure if you were sitting on the subway and I was standing in front of you that you wouldn’t want my business all up in your face would you? 

1.) Sexualize literally every body part and action
2.) Then hypocritically claim that secular society is overly sexualized
3.) Forbid people to have any sexual thoughts and feelings whatsoever (this isn’t really modesty but purity, but they two often go hand in hand when taken to such extremes)
4.) Forbid masturbation so that people don’t have an outlet
5.) Wonder why they turn into sex-obsessed freaks

You just go from one extreme to another. Which is so typical in religious societies. Yeah, young teenage girls don’t need to dress overly sexy to school. But going right to the other end of the spectrum isn’t helping. It creates huge issues with their body image and self-confidence.

There is a middle ground. But these kinds of Christians can’t see that.

If they’d only allow them to masturbate. But no, that’s a grave sin too.

“future cleavage”  – that is seriously fucked up.  Cover up what you haven’t got!

Schools have dress codes in an attempt to create a uniform learning environment for all students, regardless of socioeconomic bracket (that’s the idea, anyway). 

“I for one do NOT want to see some dude’s pants sagging down doing the prison sag so I can see his 3/4 of his boxers or thongs poking out the top of someone’s low riding jeans or someone’s bra cup sticking out the top of their tank top. ”

Fine, then don’t look. The thing you have to understand is that your personal preferences about modesty stem from the same anti-sex attitudes that believers have, and, above all else – it is your personal opinion and you have no right to impose YOUR standard of dress on ME.

“A person can’t just “hang out there” in public can they? How is that appropriate? Think about public transportation? I’m pretty sure if you were sitting on the subway and I was standing in front of you that you wouldn’t want my business all up in your face would you? ”

I ride the CTA with relative frequency. I actually enjoy the wide variety of clothing choices I see, and the clothing itself doesn’t make me uncomfortable. I have the ability to look away if I see something that makes me uncomfortable; there is no requirement that I MUST stare and be disgusted at someone’s “prison sag”.

The difference is that the people on the CTA are, presumably, adults, and they got to CHOOSE their outfit that day. These modesty standards are being imposed on small children who don’t even understand the reasoning behind them. Surely you understand that there was a line crossed, but it crosses at the point where YOUR personal preference begins to dictate someone else’s decisions, rather than achieving a compromise of sorts (like a school dress code). Placing these expectations on eight-year-old girl isn’t going a “little” too far; the line they crossed is in another galaxy!

Amanda ! I hope we can do better. In your excellent essay, you pre-emptively defend yourself by responding to imagined comments dismissing your concerns as irrelevant or off-topic. I sincerely hope you don’t actually receive any such comments.

It is entirely obvious why the indoctrination you describe is a problem, and the problem is symptomatic of the problems that exist in religions. Teaching children to be ashamed because they are normal human beings is an evil thing to do, yet it lies at the very core of Christianity, you’re a sinner from birth, and nothing you could do could ever make you good enough, therefore you need to constantly beg for forgiveness, forgiveness for the ultimate sin: the sin of being human.

Being human also means experiencing sexual attraction. There’s nothing wrong in that. You’re supposed to learn to treat people with respect, even when you find them attractive, but this is not, contrary to religious belief, a particularly tricky thing to learn.  I don’t know what’s worst. Female bodies are universally considered shameful dangerous things that must be hidden by these folks, but male attraction is considered a uncontrollable dangerous beast that *must* be kept away from even the slightest temptation lest it stirs from it’s slumber and commits some atrocity.

Your perspective is very much welcome, I enjoy reading about your experiences, and learn something new every day. These issues are not merely “atheist enough”, infact they’re among the most important issues facing us today. Your post also illustrates that so many of the problems we primarily associate with islam, exist in similar form among conservative Christians.

I hope you’ll be part of our conversation. I hope we’ll be friends. I hope we can support you, and all the countless others who suffer under the idea that being human is *sinful*.

It doesn’t matter who suffers more. There’s no advantage to anyone in excluding anyone – this is not a zero sum game. We do better for everyone when we deal with the whole issue together.

A women who feels she has to interrupt her career to care for children is helped by the exact same actions that help a man who feels that he can’t stay home with his children without being seen as unmanly. It’s the exact same problem.

Hah, Ewan, I read Needles and Hibernia’s posts before I had to leave to drive my girlfriend to work, and was composing a response in my head to post when I got home. It’s similar to yours. 

I’d add: Hibernia, it doesn’t work if you just say “Why aren’t you talking about me?” It’s not that you’re a man, it’s that you’re changing the subject. Have something to contribute that relates to modesty? Add it! A feminist perspective from a male could add valuable insight! On the other hand, if you have something else related to being a feminist male (or atheist, or waffle-lover, or fine art aficionado), start a discussion! Start a group! Start a blog!Needles, I’m mostly with you, on this. But I wouldn’t dream of starting a group just for feminist men… sounds both hyper-ironic and oxymoronic (Really sorry those rhyme, incidentally). The problem here, as I see it, isn’t that Hiberia is asking for a male perspective , it’s that he’s changing the subject entirely.  Women _have_ suffered entirely more. I would contend, though, that if a person has something valuable to add, s/he should be welcomed to add it, and have his/her statement considered, and his/her anatomy should not be grounds for whether or not the statement is welcome. To add to the original topic, this was a great article. I definitely got the message of “women are temptresses, and you need to stay away from them” throughout my childhood, and it’s a deep injustice to both men and women. The fact that women are supposed to be blamed for _having_ anatomy is bullshit, as is the way many men in roles of power have tried to shift the blame for their actions onto women. My upbringing came with a metric ton of BS regarding gender, gender roles, and the dangers of sex. It left me with a pretty paralyzing fear of relationships with women, and I had some pretty major difficulties in normalizing with the rest of the secular world, once I was out in it. Again, great article 🙂 

>
We would be glad to comment on blog posts directed to male gender issues on this blog BUT THERE AREN’T ANY.<

Hey! You! Write it! Submit it! Start a blog! We want you to!

Heck, I’m 65, and just started buying t-shirts in a ‘small’ without long sleeves (5’2 and 110lbs….)
I thought that I had put my fundie upbringing behind me, even got past the bitterness about it, but the influence is always there.  The emphasis on covering girls is creepy and hyper-sexualized.  Maybe a first step in excusing incest and rape:  it was HER fault because of the way she dressed.

http://www.onthebox.us/2011/09/man-who-marries-my-daughter.html
I think the last one says it all.

Eww.

Third, why not just teach them not to sit cross-legged while wearing a skirt? It seems to me that overhauling a wardrobe is the least efficient way of dealing with a “problem” that can be solved by sitting in a different position.If they’re going to be obsessive about “modesty” I’d definitely rather they restrict what their children wear than restrict what their children *do*.Telling your kid “throw some leggings under that skirt, it’s a little short” is, I think, infinitely preferable to “you can’t run, bend over, sit cross-legged, go on the jungle gym, or do much other than sit in that skirt”.

I’m an atheist (more like anti-theist) but as the father of a 4-year-old girl, you better believe that she won’t be dressed like a runaway prostitute when she’s 13 like the girls at the malls.  This has nothing to do with religion or body self-image or feminism.  It has to do with the fact that scantily clad girls will put themselves in the crosshairs of older boys and men who have intentions that aren’t exactly in the best interest of the girl.

This has nothing to do with self-image in women. It has more to do with men being predictably obsessed with sex and protecting daughters from the way we recall acting at a young age…

I think you missed my point.

My point was that if somebody is looking at a child with a sexual intent (like videotaping them at a waterpark) then that person has a serious problem. The problem does not lie with how short a child’s teeshirt or shorts were or what swimsuit they were wearing. The problem lies with the adult.

People who want to sexually take advantage of children are going to want to do that whether they are running around in a teeshirt and shorts or a long sleeved top and ankle length skirt.

I’m also more than slightly disturbed by your last sentence. So a child who was wearing a bikini or an ‘immodest’ teeshirt and shorts would be classified as ‘inviting’ somebody to molest them would they?

The only way to make these tests appropriate is to replace the images of the young girls with pictures of overweight old men.  

From what I’ve read, they police both dress and posture. I’ve read accounts from women who were criticized for the way the way sat or walked because someone found it too arousing.

But Anon, that’s just it. There are creeps out there. What’s wrong with trying to protect our children?

You’re assuming that by dressing modestly (whatever that means) your children will be “protected”. You’re assuming that this is something in YOUR control. Worse, you’re assuming that of those children who are harmed, it’s their fault, or their parents’.

None of these things is true. Somebody who is attracted to children may be, for all we know, MORE attracted to them when they ARE covered up “like kids”. Or it might not matter one way or another. Or they might take a “whatever I can get” attitude.

I had a friend just the other day who was at the neighborhood splash
park and actually caught a guy on her phone camera. The guy was hiding
in the shadows of a facilities building up the hill a ways and it was
obvious that he was a) video taping children b) Didn’t want to be seen.

Videotaping parkgoers isn’t a crime. You don’t really know WHAT his motivation was. Maybe he was in the shadows because he didn’t want to be in the sun and the angle was better. Maybe he wanted to hide because he’s been dinged for filming his own kid before and thought, hilariously, that moving further away (that’s what zoom is for) would help him avoid that problem.

Or maybe he IS a creep. I fail to see how your kids are harmed if he never talks to them or touches them in any way. Sure, it’s creepy, but if he’s getting his kicks without actually molesting any child, well, I’m perfectly happy with that situation.

And really, what would you suggest? That children never wear bathing suits in public? That they never go to the playground?

How about you teach them that their bodies are their own, that if they’re raped or molested it is NOT their fault, that they can go to you with problems WITHOUT being shamed?

Fact, there are creeps out there. While we cannot protect our children
from every threat, I don’t think we need to have them advertising or
inviting them in either.

Fact is, the vast majority of pedophiles target children known to them, typically family members. Worrying about what’s “out there” isn’t helpful, because the guys “out there” aren’t going to hurt your kid.

 They will look for those not being watched, for those easy to take.

No, they look for those they can easily manipulate. In general, that doesn’t mean the kid is “not being watched”. It means the kid is under their supervision and they’re in a position of trust.

That’s why 90% of molested children are harmed by family members, usually parents but also grandparents, uncles, cousins, or older siblings.

 Strange then, that societies where there’s less of this bullshit has *higher* average age of sexual debut, and vastly *lower* rates of teenage pregnancies. Your map doesn’t match the terrain.

There’s a *huge* distance between every top where you can see belly when arms are extended straight up being considered sinful, and being dressed like a “runaway prostitute”.

The two women I’ve known who *did* dress extremely provocatively, and behaved to match, where both women who where recovering from parents pulling -precisely- this bullshit on them.

Your comment doesn’t show much respect for men -or- women. Women would, if given freedom, dress like runaway prostitutes, meanwhile men are “predictably obsessed”.

Definitely true, I just based my answer on the situation that was given (potential creep who was a stranger, in an outdoors scenario).

Indeed. As I’ve said before, read Joshua Harris’ awful “Sex Isn’t the Problem (Lust Is)” for a horrifying explanation of how fundamentalist attitudes toward sex warp men. He talks about how he can’t even have a lingerie catalog in the house without calling his friends for help with his “lust,” nor watch typical movies and commercials. He basically encourages men and women to shun the real world and hide away, and seems to think avoidance of anything that might spark the slightest arousal is normal and healthy. It makes me feel terrible for all the young people who are being brought up to loathe themselves for normal sexual responses.

Yeah, there is definitely a middle ground.  If we obsess over the clothing that young girls wear, we do risk turning every damn part of their bodies into a sexual taboo (and nothing makes a repressed dude hornier than a taboo that he’s trying desperately not to think about).  

On the other hand, there really is a lot of children’s clothes these days that seems designed to turn tiny children into sexual objects.  Last year, I was in some fast food joint, and I saw a girl who couldn’t have been older than seven of eight who was wearing a pair of pants with the word “Juicy” printed on the butt.  “Juicy”.  On a kid’s butt.  I could actually feel my blood pressure rise after seeing that.  That kid’s mother thought that those pants were appropriate for her child.  I could barely believe it.

I’m not really concerned about snatchings, since that is rare.  But you would be BLOWN AWAY by the number of pedophiles who troll public places just looking at girls.  Looking and taking pictures.  And the people who design clothes for girls are insane.  Seriously, high heels and thong underwear for the under-five set. Find a mother of such a girl and ask her for her opinion on “prostitot” clothing.  Every mother I know has examples.

Little girls should not have to do theses demeaning fashion tests, but honestly, based on the clothes that are available, they really should.  Why should a ten year old girl have to raise her arms to make sure that her belly doesn’t show?  Why does a designer make belly shirts for ten year old girls?

It means that parts of your body with very high staph and coliform bacteria counts are rubbing all day against fabric that often can’t be washed in hot water.

It also means that sensitive parts of your body are rubbing all day against fabric a lot less soft than the typical undergarment.

And it always amazes me how they totally ignore girls being attracted to boys in the same way.  I tell ya, when I see a hot guy with some nice pants on there are thoughts in my head that would make a man blush lol

I would hate to live a life with fear of my own sexuality.  

While sexuality is healthy and part of growing up and changing bodies, yadda yadda, “fitting in” with what the other girls wear is swinging into the other end of gender socializiation. Boys who dress like men – be it a suit or cargo shorts and a t-shirt, are “ok”. Girls who dress like grown women are kind of a travesty. They are being sexualized, and attuning to the male gaze as early as possible. Being overly cautious as these religious people are to suppress the inklings of sexuality, pre-marital sex, teen pregnancy, things they are trying to stop BY CHOICE OF OUTFITS ALONE, is overboard. But dressing so your underwear sticks out your fashionable low-riders, or having your cleavage hanging out is not necessarily ideal either. Children who get a choice what to wear often have no ideas as to their own modesty. Yes, people are looking. I have a friend who freeze-frames the scene in “Willy Wonka” where the girl’s panties show, while she is just dancing and singing and being a (snotty) little girl. He’s over 40 and it’s his favorite part of the movie. He blames biology.

Girls should feel healthier about their bodies, not shame, but not like they have to be sexual for anyone to like them or notice them. Boys are made to feel like nothing better than animals for sex, but they never really have to think or stress about their clothing choices hitting the right mark. Of course, teenage years do bring about leanings toward something “different” than what a “typical” guy wears (the aforementioned suit or t-shirt and shorts), and boys take a lot of flack for diverting from the usual, but in most of these cliques, the girl version is to be sexy. Guys don’t seem to worry about being too sexy, unless of course they also are trying to attract the attention of males.  It’s a guy world – a guy has to notice you, and if you don’t give him what he wants, he can find someone who does. Is it any better to have little girls with no cleavage wearing a bikini? Some people think little girls have no chest and nothing to cover up, but a bikini covers that up and also sets up a young girl’s mind to behaving older than she is, and young people tend to emulate their older classmates, siblings, cousins, and neighbors. I wasn’t raised religious, but I still had body issues. I am tall, and I’ve always been tall (though not always as tall). My mother passed on her issues – to slouch, to wear flat shoes, and possibly dress from the men’s department to find clothes that weren’t too little to cover our bodies. I always had to cover up my chest – when you’re a girl, you’re always going to be a girl, and boobies are boobies even if they’re not there. How else are you going to transition to adolescence and not know to cover them, or feel extra shame for having to cover them up suddenly while boys never have to?

I’m not necessarily advocating modesty or shame, but complaints about modesty wrecking your sense of fashion, while all the other girls are dressed to compete for the attention of those horny boys you heard about, I really don’t know what’s worse. It would be nice if people could have healthier attitudes from the get-go instead of have to be warped so.

What they said here about guys tshirts isn’t totally inaccurate. They do have deep vnecks, but they are longer and you can put a cami underneath. I just buy a size smaller. They can be very cute.

There is a difference between “looking” and “staring”. Just noticing that someone else is attractive isn’t a problem. Doesn’t mean they deserve to be ogled or stared it.

And yet, I saw a photo of two guys leering at a burka-clad woman, no doubt imagining what was underneath. Hubba hubba! Twain said that nothing was ever made less desirable by forbidding it.

”
Women would, if given freedom, dress like runaway prostitutes”.  Nice generalization of my position.  

I think all teenage girls go through a phase where, if they feel like they’re attractive to boys, they enjoy the extra attention from dressing provocatively.  I think it’s fine to look pretty and even “respectfully-sexy”, but going too far sends an unintended signal to men of almost uncritical acceptance and encouragement of sexual advances.  When the wrong guy is around, this can spell trouble.  As a father, one of my duties is to prevent harm to my daughter.  Dressing in a way that invites sexual advances is something I will prevent.

I don’t think teenage girls intend to send this signal.  What I’m saying is that boys will erroneously perceive a signal that doesn’t exist and wasn’t intended.  Horny boys can be dangerous to a young girl, both short-term and long-term.  I’m not going to apologize for protecting my daughter.  It’s all about finding the right balance between protection and suppression.  You can’t give a young girl carte blanche, nor can you put her in a burka.

Here, here!

Many moons ago I worked at a Christian Bible Camp. I distinctly remember teenage me being told off by a male counsellor because after hours of working in the sweltering heat my sinful bra strap had poked out from under my shirt and didn’t I realize how tempting that was to all the unmarried men at the camp?A friend of mine who worked there had breasts on the larger side and already followed the xl men’s shirts rule of style, but the wife of a newly married couple told her that she was worried my friend was tempting her husband into adulterous thoughts. The poor girl spent the rest of the very hot summer wearing *three layers* of men’s shirts (and you could still tell she was female). Apparently it never occurred to the wife that her husband could take some responsibility…

Great post. As a male, I have my own suite of scars left over from my fundamentalist upbringing. I don’t have to wrestle with a bunch of body issues. I don’t feel ‘lucky’ about that, per se, but I agree with you 100% that people who have been damaged by religion should find the support they need in the atheist community. 

In my experience (again, male) that support is not there. Atheists don’t have things set up so that potential escapees like us can find a way out, nor find support once we do get out. It needs to be there for me, but more importantly, it needs to be there for women; because women have many of the same challenges I do, plus the nefarious extra issues due to programming like this.

Seriously… great post! 

 Thank you for being a fellow voice of reason on this.  Hemant posted a while ago that if people “can’t handle” the gender-relations articles, they can leave.

To me, it’s got nothing to do with the articles and everything to do with the accusations and flaring tempers in the ensuing discussions.  I was ready to trout-slap someone the next time I heard “what about teh menz,” which is just as dismissive and scornful to male people as religion’s obsession with submission has been to female people, and accusations of agendas, speaking from privilege (unfalsifiable), “creepiness” (which is, again, unfalsifiable and thus unscientific, having no place on a skepticism blog) and political correctness leading people to be hesistant to speak up.

This is important shit here – a solid, specific example of how religion seeks to control lives – and yet people act like children in these discussions, slinging blame and condemnation like candy at a halloween costume parade.

So yeah, thank you for being civil and admonishing others to do the same.

I’m not dismissing your concerns, but have a different perspective on this.

You were clearly harmed by this, as are a lot of other girls, and that’s awful. Yes, girls should be helped to be more comfortable with their bodies, and no, they’re not responsible for controlling the lascivious thoughts of everyone around them (and no, lascivious thoughts aren’t always bad, either!).

But. (You knew there was going to be a “but”.) Girls need help – not controlling edicts, but advice – on how to deal with the fact that during puberty they suddenly go from a state where no one cares what they show to suddenly ~half the population really caring what they show.

The “over & out” test? Twice in recent years I’ve had to point out to female friends that their shirt completely fell open when they bent over. These women were not aware this was happening, and did not want it to happen. If it was intentional, then more power to them – I certainly enjoyed the view (men really are kind of sex-crazed maniacs). But it wasn’t intentional, and it was embarrassing for them.

Your extreme distaste for this site is understandable, but also a little blinding. Small example: “Third, why not just teach them not to sit cross-legged while wearing a skirt?” Reread what the site actually said! That was for shorts (which is a position many people wearing shorts do sit in). The skirt position was completely different, and again a position many people wearing skirts do sit in.My conclusion:Complete obsession with modesty – badCommanding everyone to follow the same fashion rules – badEvangelical Christians – often creepyTelling girls some basic rules they can follow so once they’ve passed puberty guys won’t stare and drool if the girls don’t want them to – maybe not so bad

 Apparently 5 paragraph breaks the is maximum, as everything after that is condensed into one silly paragraph. Ah well.

As for the “guys are sex-crazed maniacs” thing… a lot of us are. Though I differ from conservative Christians in thinking that it’s largely our own responsibility to control that. Though I not infrequently wish humans had estrous cycles so the rest of the time I could focus on other things  🙂

I would ask, why did your friend feel so embarassed? Why did she not want that to happen?  Isn’t that what’s really being discussed? 
I can understand telling them their clothing is revealing and they react with a “whoops, thanks,” like when you tell someone they have something in their teeth.
But when someone feels shame/embarassment over a small slip-up you gotta wonder why the strong reaction?

*This is classic victim-blaming. Kids should be able to play in a splash park without being concerned that they might attract the attention of paedophiles. Having an adult keep an eye out for voyeurs and reporting them to police is the answer, not making all the children cover up.

*Instead of teaching girls to wear burqas (because that’s where this mentality has to lead), and boys that they are sex-crazed monsters, they should be taught that sexual attraction is natural for both boys and girls, not something to be ashamed of, but that they have to always be aware that the people to whom they’re attracted are *people* and don’t want to be sexually objectified. Having sexual thoughts and fantasies is normal, but treat other people with respect and always get consent before acting on your sexual feelings.

*No matter how “modestly dressed” a child or woman is, you aren’t doing anything to protect them from people’s fantasies. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2012/06/a-picture-is-worth-1000-words.html

I grew up in a somewhat less rigid form of this so-called purity culture, but I still got the message loud and clear as a child that males were primitive, simplistic, reactionary and unadaptable, and it was up to me as a girl to take full responsibility for any of their behaviors or feelings because they couldn’t be held responsible for themselves. The disservice that attitude does to both boys and girls is incredibly socially damaging. It fails to challenge males to mature emotionally as people, and it places upon females the full burden for solving any and all interpersonal problems within the community. Not only that, but it assumes strict gender and sex dichotomy when reality is, not everyone is (or should be) straight and cis. The strain that puts on developing relationships is so disfunctional. It’s no wonder many children raised that way run fast and far, and then struggle for balance the rest of their lives.

I grew up in Baptist churches throughout the US and have heard the term stumbling block thousands of times. My wife grew up in Pentacostal churches and it was also used there. I think it’s alot more common than you think.

Wow!  What a terribly awkward framework to have to live through… Being a teenager is hard enough.  Makes me really appreciate how much freedom I really had growing up.

Well, I’m not surprised to hear that it’s used in Baptist and Pentecostal churches, but that’s still just two denominations, and similarly evangelical and fundamentalist denominations at that. I’m not claiming it’s not common, I’m just saying that it may not be part of any general Christian dogma, and that I’m more curious about whose dogma, specifically, it is. Now I’ve learned that it at least crops up among Baptists and Pentecostals, so I thank you for that additional information.

“criss cross, applesauce?”

 I don’t have a moral problem with public nudity, but it would introduce some hygiene issues that would need to be addressed.  There’s a reason that most naturalist communities have a “towel rule” for all public seating areas.   Otherwise a stranger’s skid marks might end up on the bus seat instead of hir underwear.

Then again, always carrying a towel would appeal to my inner Douglas Adams…

Rhyming phrase often used with very small children to get them to sit on the floor in the expected cross-legged fashion. In my youth we called it Indian style, a phrase no longer used for obvious reasons. Also known as tailor sitting.

Ummm, I think they were supposed to pretend that they were looking at their grandpa in the mirror, not that it was their grandpa looking at them. Who wants to see grandpa undies or thighs? 

Sorry, they weren’t making a commentary about grandpas looking at 8 year old girls, nice straw man though.

Which kind of makes you wonder, if they take everything else in the Bible so literally, why aren’t they telling their congregation to avoid eating apples? Evil fucking fruit.

 Yes, he is. Except, I’m not sure you’re understanding how this works.

You’re walking through a mall. You see a flash of something. You take a closer look. You see the skirt, the shoes, the lingerie top, the lips so red they’re practically radioactive. You shrug. Just some attention whore, or a plain whore. You take an closer look. Shit! Probably 14 years old. Oh, well, I guess I know what she’ll be doing with her life. You move on.

Just because you see someone as a hooker doesn’t mean you’re going to treat them as one.

To quote from the Feminism 101 blog: “What it boils down to is
this: Men, not women, need to be the ones creating the spaces to discuss
men’s issues.”

If that’s true, why are there so many posts on men’s blogs about women’s issues? Should these discussions be limited to women’s blogs? And here I thought feminism was about equality and caring for one another.

Even if fewer men suffer from it than women*

No, they are supposed to pretend that the mirror is Grandpa, and to look at themselves as if Grandpa is seeing what they see in the mirror.

Having gone through a similar form of this “modesty training” myself, I can attest that the OP got it right.

I think people have different definitons for the word “feminist” and judge each other negatively based on their own definitions rather than the definition that the person making the comment used. But I agree with you that we should be focusing on helping others regardless of gender, race, or sexual orientation.

Who knew my parents managed to find liberal churches. Was yours one of the Methodist churches that is also opposed to mixed couples dancing? I met a woman from Kansas who was from one of those churches and was stunned to learn that the church I grew up with was supposed to be opposed to dancing. My mom came from a small town in Nebraska and the church just up and changed denominations one day and suddenly everyone was Methodist. She went to a youth retreat with some other Methodist churches where she learned she wasn’t supposed to dance. This did not go over well, since there was really nothing else to do in her town except the church organized dances.

This is absolutely not limited to Christian culture.  Try going to any Hasidic Jewish neighborhood in Brooklyn sometime.   Women may not wear pants, must cover knees and elbows, and no cleavage.  Women are not allowed to sing where men can hear them, cannot shake a man’s hand, and photos of women are usually prohibited (remember the Hillary Clinton photo flap)?  And generally men and women are separated during all public events.  Women who go to temple sit behind a wall or in the balcony where the men can’t be distracted by them. 

Also as some commenters have mentioned, modesty rules are quite prominent in many Muslim cultures.   Finally, there are a lot of Christian churches that do not enforce modesty rules like this though they might have some more subtle messages. 

Maybe becoming more common place? I was raised in the burgeoning movement that is now called dominionist by some, and the phrase stumbling block was quite commonplace, used for anything that could be  interpreted as temptation to do wrong, from accidental flirting to speeding to doubtful thoughts. So I was around it my whole youth, more or less and was under the impression it was a commonly used phrase in christiandom, at least outside of catholicism.

 According to the internet, it’s in the bible.
Romans 14:13
13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in the way of a brother or sister.

Matthew 16:2323 Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”

 You mean apart from the ever-present dangers of unwanted pregnancy and all the angst that goes with it? Well, there’s the possibility(probability?) of STD. Of course, this applies to men as well as women.

As for dressing sexy, there’s a time, a place, and an age.

 South Park, years ago, did an episode on this exact topic, in their famously over-the-top manner. Even had Paris Hilton as a role model for young girls.

‘Purity culture’ is not just damaging to girls but also to boys. I remember one incident at church camp back in the day that made my blood boil even at the time. Boys and girls had separate swimming pools surrounded by VERY HIGH FENCES. The girls typically wore whatever they wanted since they didn’t have to worry about tempting the boys. One day one of the girls sustained an injury and had to leave the swim area to get medical treatment. This involved (UH OH!) leaving the protection of the fenced-in swim area in her bikini. She was ok, just needed some bandages from the nurse, but some of the male counselors saw her while she was going to the infirmary. In a later ‘devo’ talk, one of the counselors that had  talked about how he saw a girl in a bikini which made him ‘feel sick to his stomach.’ It infuriated me because it was such a backhanded way to shame that girl who had done nothing wrong, but it also later made me angry that men were being taught that a woman’s body is something sickening, to be hated and feared. Of course, maybe the guy was gay, but I’m sure even gay guys are not ‘sickened’ by the female body (well, most of it anyway).

I don’t know why they’re beating around the bush. They should just tell the kids to wear an abaya or burka.

I’ll bet you think ‘girl parts’ are stinky, dirty things.

My kid shows her belly when she does cartwheels, I’m not about to tell her that her prepubescant body is tempting men and she needs to cut it out. 

Seriously though? The “sexy clothes designed for kids” and “don’t show your belly because it is a stumbling block” are both sides of the same coin. Both are subtly or not so subtly telling young girls that they are primarily a sexual object and that girls should show it off, or cover it up based on what someone tells them. 

We can do better than contribute to this garbage. 

 Now I have a visual I can’t get rid of. Great! Now I know how those poor, benighted Christians must feel, with all these impure and evil thoughts(you know, the purely natural ones) flying about in my head.

 Preschool and elementary teachers are overly fond of rhyming cues for their students.

Criss cross applesauce has widely supplanted “Indian style”, which is just as well.  You also hear phrases like “One two three, eyes on me” or “Easy peasy, lemon squeesy” if you spend any time at all listening to teachers talking to their classes.

  But you would be BLOWN AWAY by the number of pedophiles who troll
public places just looking at girls.  Looking and taking pictures.

Before we discuss whether or not I should care, I have to ask: Do you have any actual statistics on this? Or are you just making it up? Because, quite honestly, I’d be surprised if any study has been done on this phenomenon.

(That doesn’t mean you’re wrong, it just means that I’m not going to accept it without some form of proof.)

 “How about you teach them that their bodies are their own, that if
they’re raped or molested it is NOT their fault, that they can go to you
with problems WITHOUT being shamed?”

This! A thousand times – and it is the direct opposite of the “modesty” teaching – when I was molested at 9, I spent *years* telling myself that I had brought it on by being immodest and accessible.

 I grew up in this and it’s the reason I stopped going to Sunday School in 8th grade. The teacher was insistent about bringing up this topic at least once a month. I knew there was at least one girl in the group (other’s didn’t know this) that had been abused in the past, and the teacher kept going on and on about how girls need to cover up to keep the boys in line. She even used the “some clothes are more inviting” line. *Shudder*

 “Just because you see someone as a hooker doesn’t mean you’re going to treat them as one.” Wow, slut shaming. How exactly does one “treat a whore?”

 “It has to do with the fact that scantily clad girls will put themselves
in the crosshairs of older boys and men who have intentions that aren’t
exactly in the best interest of the girl.” No, this is the exact teaching that made me stop going to Sunday School. This is what they tell girls. Men and boys have self-control, just as much as women do. The way I dress does not “cause” men or boys to do anything to me. Teach your girls how to recognize respectful behavior in men and boys (or girls, if they swing that way). Teach them that no matter what they wear, they have a right to their own body, and nothing they could wear would make it ok for anybody to hurt them. Men are not slathering animals with zero self-control. This includes sexual predators. If anything, sexual predators have more self-control, because they choose their victims based on availability, not on what the victims are wearing.

Solution:  Get a nice, button-down Oxford shirt and always wear a tie
and tuck in your shirt.  People won’t be intimidated or disgusted by
your belly.  But people might think you’re an actuary. 

There’s not need to go overboard. There are plenty of things men(and women, too; have you see what some of them wear?) can wear to hide the gut that’s not stupid-looking and won’t cause projectile vomiting within a 10 km radius.

 I grew up in a Methodist church. It was discussed, numerous times, including in confirmation classes.

 “All I am suggesting is that there is no need to be a slut, as the term is commonly understood” Again, slut shaming. There’s nothing wrong with having sex. There’s nothing wrong with having a lot of sex. Stop slut shaming-men and women (since you claimed you weren’t only talking to women).

 Are you seriously going to tell me that if you see a guy acting in the stereotypical skinhead manner with a couple of swastikas on the forehead thrown in for good measure, that you are not going treat him the way he obviously wants to be treated?

Does this mean I’m advocating automatic violence for skinheads or instant rape for sluts? Of course I am not.

What it means is that perception  is often more important than actuality. We can argue where it should be that way, but there is no denying it.

Of course a slut has it easier than a skinhead. All she has to do to project a different appearance is put on a different wardrobe. A skinhead is stuck in his persona.

Get a taste of reality, lady.

For one, the kind of freak who is looking to harm children isn’t interested in what they’re wearing…They’re just interested in the fact that the kid is a kid. Letting your daughter wear normal clothing isn’t going to encourage it. 

Two, paranoia like this is no reason at all to damage your foals by indoctrinating them with crap like the above. And I speak from experience there…I grew up in a home that taught stuff like this. The damage this kind of “modesty” and the crap that accompanies it causes is irreversible.

Three, by blaming it on what your kid is wearing, you’re excusing yourself of the responsibility you have to be a parent. Those freaks who are looking to hurt kids are gonna go after the ones left alone; the easy target. Not the one who happened to wear a V neck, or who showed a little skin while playing. 

Most child molestation cases happen by a relative or close family friend. Someone the kid already knows and trusts. What the child is wearing isn’t going to change that.

It’s good that you’re concerned, but think a bit before you act. 

” I’m not saying that modesty will protect
every girl from sexual abuse.  Yes, there
are creeps out there who will rape a girl wearing a baggy sweatsuit.  But my thinking is, why tempt these
people?”

This is victim-blaming. Predators do NOT choose their victims based on how cute and sexy they dress, predators choose their victims based on opportunity. Seeing an “immodestly”-dressed woman does not cause men to suddenly be unable to control their faculties and “tempt” them to rape or sexually abuse women or girls. Rapists are responsible for raping, not what the victim was wearing, not the victim’s sexual history.

The house analogy fails because what you’re saying is that: locking the door (making the house less available)= dressing modestly
unlocking the door (making the house more available)= not dressing modestly

When in reality, how you dress has no bearing on your availability to a sexual predator.

locking the house (less available to burglars)= making sure children have strong support systems and know they will be believed if anything happens to them; setting up guidelines so that teachers/pastors/other adults in authority positions are never alone with one child at a time to prevent the adult in authority from abusing their authority–all of these actions make children less available targets to predators

When I worked in preschools, we had these rules. Suspected abuse was always reported. You can do it anonymously. Reporting procedures were strictly followed. No adults were ever left alone with one child (many preschools keep video footage of their rooms as a proxy to this rule). If only one child needs to go on a bathroom break, then you take another couple anyways, or you get another available teacher to go with you. This is to protect the child and to protect the worker from false allegations (children’s perception of events can be very distorted).

unlocking the house (more available to burglars)= failing to follow proper reporting policies for suspected abuse; failure to provide strong support systems to children; failing to insist that adult in authority not be left alone with any child

I am constantly dismayed by teenage girls dressing in skankwear & bragging about how sexy the are or how unsexy some other girl isn’t. They seem to think their only power lies in their sexuality. Doesn’t matter if the “unsexy” girl gets straight A’s & accepted to the best university: the “sexy” clique always feel superior, as well as basking in their own ignorance (like Jaywalk All-Stars).

Sure, you look good NOW, but trust me – it don’t last. Grooming your brain may be less fashionable, but it’ll get you further than the inevitable single parenthood you’re headed for.

“They seem to think their only power lies in their sexuality.”

I wonder where they get that idea? Could it be a culture that tells them their power lies in a sexualized body?

One camp yelling, “Show it!” and the other yelling, “Cover it up!”

P.S.
Ever think sexy girls might do homework? Or that they might be lesbians; or not want kids; or have an awesome boyfriend because they, themselves, are also awesome? You have bought into the lies as well. Stop them, don’t propagate them.

Those same parts of my body are rubbing against fabric that I’m not GOING to wash in very hot water (that’s why they’re called “delicates”) no mater WHAT I wear.

As far as soft goes, it doesn’t seem to make a difference. Even if it does to you, that doesn’t make it “ew” if I have a different opinion on the subject.

 I heard it continually in the Baptist church I was involved in in the 70’s and it never went away or changed in the years I was involved in religion.

 Yes.  Commando is a lifesaver!  In the desert in which I live, I’ve discovered that commando is infinitely more comfortable outside in the heat and makes it easier to walk, run, and do heavy work. My other solution, naked, only works at home for some reason . . .   -_^

Hot.

No when you use the word slut you really are only talking to women. Just like if you used a racial slur against blacks you can’t claim you meant white people too. And your attitude towards women’s sexuality is creepy as fuck.

Thank you Laura for this!

I can’t believe that of all the comments on this thread, of all the atheists with their theories and projections, I agree most with the Christian who has actually experienced the program.

I am an atheist and a humanist and I have a beautiful baby daughter.  I understand that sex exists, I understand that my daughter is a sexual being, and that she will have to eventually experience and sort out her own view of sexuality.

I am also her guide and teacher, and I will teach her “modesty” as I understand it.  This article really has a lot of practical suggestions for how girls can dress modestly and yet trendy in the fashion that many girls find appealing.

I understand that many girls and women like to dress differently.  If you’re a girl that likes short hair and flannel shirts, go for it. 

Sexuality isn’t a sin – it’s a great power that we all have.  If you don’t think you’re particularly sexy, then use your other superpowers as a human being to achieve what you need to.

“A rape victim doesn’t “invite” rape, no matter how they are dressed.”

Quite so. Folks here might appreciate this list of ten tips to end rape from Rape Crisis Scotland: http://www.rapecrisisscotland.org.uk/campaigns/10-top-tips-to-end-rape/

I usually deconstruct women’s fashion magazines not too differently.

Wait, what?  What kind of person thinks religious persecution of women lacks worthiness as a discussion topic?

That’s just bizarre.

…I wonder how many girls end up getting socially ostracized because their peers think they have a mental handicap as a result of the bad advice that this and similar things dole out.

Might just be me, but I remember experiencing a vague sense of unease or that something was just off when I was around an acquaintance who dressed by these sorts of rules and other children with egregiously mis-sized clothes.

I feel that teaching your child to be modest can really damage them if they get the wrong message. Fortunately for me, my Christian mother gave me the right message while teaching me to be modest. She taught me to dress modestly, but attractively. I feel great about the way I look. I feel pretty when I go out in public, even though I don’t show much skin. My mother also taught me that there is a time and place to be slutty. She gave me my sexiest underwear for my bachelorette party. I definitely strut my stuff for my husband and feel no shame. 
So yes, I think she gave me a good message about sexuality and modesty. But I am probably one of the few who got a good message. 

This article describes my adolescence perfectly! I used to be so disgusted with men for being so gross and so upset that I couldn’t be comfortable in my own skin without “sinning”. Seriously, they used to crank up the air conditioning at church just to make sure that women were covering up enough! I’m so glad that I stumbled across feminism at 16 because it made me feel so much more comfortable with myself and with men (it make me LIKE men haha).

I’m the mother of an 11 year old daughter, and I have rules about what sort of clothing she is allowed to wear. And yes, the word modesty does feature in those rules.
However, in our case modesty DOESN’T mean covering everything and certainly not covering things that have yet to develop! (how insane is that?!)
For us modesty means not wearing age inappropriate clothing. It means that we cannot see her underwear during normal activity, such as walking down the street. When she climbs trees and pulls handstands I expect we may well see underwear, and I don’t care a bit, she’s a child and deserves to spend her childhood free of adult concerns.
What I don’t allow is a micro-mini skirt with make-up and heels.
I believe the test that should be applied asks ” Is this outfit age appropriate?” it may not be appropriate for a girl of 10 or 11 to wear make-up and high heels, but I’ll be damned if I can see why a kid should need to wear a t-shirt over her swimsuit.

I was raised with this overreacting modesty culture, too. The burden placed on women for policing men’s sexuality is absurd and really can be painful, but like other religious traditions, YMMV. I was mostly relieved when I was younger to have a religious excuse for not displaying my body. I felt incredible pressure from our larger sex-and-celebrity-obsessed culture to look hot and display myself as much as possible for the approval of others, and here was my ticket out of that unwelcome game. It did come at the cost of occasionally worrying about whether my dancing (shame!) and clothes were immodest, but in the end I guess I balanced the expectations of church and pop culture to a workable result. I got teased for my clothes for a while, but I can honestly say that that was mainly an economic issue. It’s interesting to look back on it as an adult and to realize that the emphasis on sexiness and modesty are two sides of the same coin.

Amanda, I loved this article, and I could totally relate! As an ex-mormon, not worrying about wearing “modest” clothing is one of my new FAVORITE things! I always told myself it wasn’t a big deal, but it WAS: I can see that now. It has changed my self image so much. After I left the church I was able to achieve my fitness goals and I think a big part of that was because I FELT better and more attractive and I was less stressed.

I grew up in this kind of household and I can personally say all Amanda said is true! I grew up not being allowed to wear any kind of “impure” clothing. Even today, as an adult with a child of my own, my mom still directs me to “pull up” my tank tops because she can see a hint of cleavage. My mom is a good person and I love her, but I will never put my daughter through that. 

”
If someone leaves their door unlocked and someone breaks in, they are not at fault for the robbery that occurs. IT IS THE FAULT OF THE PERSON THAT COMMITTED THE CRIME. Period. Entirely. The end.”

I couldn’t agree more.  Likewise, girls/women are NEVER to blame for getting sexually assaulted.  

However, there are those who dress provocatively in order to advertise to males that they want sex.  Why would we teach our impressionable girls that it’s a good thing to emulate that?  That is utter foolishness.

Thank you, Wild Rumpus.  It’s funny; many of the things we covered in the Secret Keeper Girl events could be seen as pro-feminist.  For instance, that girls have control and power over their own bodies, and that they don’t need to look to other people for affirmation that they are beautiful.

Your daughter is blessed to have you for a mom!

Boy, can I relate! This is, in many respects, how my teens and early 20s played out. My parents didn’t force it; at the time I chose to adopt this standard of modesty (I was 14, heh, what did I know?). But I can relate. This was very on-the-nose.

I have a little girl and I’m going to do my best not to raise her to have issues with her body and her clothes. I still dress conservatively but the only real “rules” my girl has for clothing are that she needs to wear shorts under her skirts – she’s 6 and never remembers to keep her skirt down, so we don’t want undies displayed for all the world to see – and that she doesn’t wear her “under skirt” shorts on their own (they’re quite tight). She dresses herself and when we go clothes shopping she picks out pretty much everything we buy. I teach her that her body is very special and that certain parts are private…I never mention “saving it for your husband” or tell her that her body is “intoxicating”, because frankly that’s a super-creepy thing to say to a little girl. I want her to own whatever sense of modesty she has as she grows up, to make these choices for herself, to pick her own style…not to have the hangups and the fears that I have. To this day I still can’t bring myself to wear anything that hits me above the knee or that shows my shoulders or back.

I’m still a Christian – but I want to take a different approach with her. And with my son, too, because all this purity and modesty stuff is harmful to boys as well, but that’s another topic altogether!

God gave us freedom it’s not all christian’s fault that your dad didn’t let you have your own decisions and every second I don’t think about god it’s not a sin I’m just not getting closer to him every day of my life and BTW god did not make evil evil made itself god uses unfortunate people as an example to all of us to thank him for every day we are fortunate

So when I breastfeed my daughter without a cover, the way the Madonna is portrayed in thousands of images, I’m simultaneously breaking a HUGE Christian modesty rule. How hypocritical of them.
Maaaan, where’s my burqa when I need it…

Don’t take this the wrong way, but have you considered therapy? I’m just saying it, because from from what I can tell a significant number of women who write spiritual abuse blogs seem to have tried it.

There are plenty of blogs that from people with similar upbringings and emotional baggage:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/nolongerquivering/
http://phoenixandolivebranch.wordpress.com/
http://ayoungmomsmusings.blogspot.com/
http://baptisttaliban.blogspot.com/

There are further links on many of those sites

Because if they do want sex, it’s presumably helpful to signal that, otherwise, no sex.

I’m not sure this is particularly complicated.

“some people can stumble. Not that everyone will and that it is theeeir fault if they do”

There’s a huge amount of just plain wrong wrapped up in your comment, but I’m just going to pick out the two most egregious errors:

– Liking, wanting, and thinking about sex isn’t ‘stumbling’. Sex is a good thing.
– If other people are afraid of ‘stumbling’ then it is up to them to walk carefully, not to force you to run your life for their benefit.

And in other news…

Do you know why Baptists don’t have sex standing up?

It might lead to dancing!

Thank you for the links! That’s very helpful. 

And, to Christine, I would certainly try and seek help or counseling in some way if that is possible – I’ve found there are many issues that I have difficulty working out on my own, and there is no reason whatsoever that you should feel pressure to do it alone or feel shame for seeking help. 

Not everyone leaves religion with trauma, but many people do…while your situation is tragic and I can empathize, never let anyone tell you that it ought to be “easy” or you should just “get over it”. Seeking professional help might be the best thing you do for yourself!

I wish you the best of luck. 🙂

 I have a narrow category of what I feel comfortable in. I would say that’s not necessarily a modesty thing, I wear a lot of styles comfortably, but patterns and bright colors make me feel like my clothes are wearing me, and I don’t exactly dress like a “guy” but I think I dress mostly with the ease that guys do, and feel physically comfortable in my clothes, if that makes any sense. No pulling, no itching, no pinching, and no standing in the mirror wondering if I look ok. I could vary it up a bit but I don’t want my feet to hurt, and I don’t want people staring at me because I look like I can’t dress myself. So I do stick to my comfort zone. Pretty much because I was restricted as a teenager from going to extremes, fitting in, working it out, and I have 2 experiences in middle school where one, my red pants split, and two, my friends made fun of me for wearing turquoise pants. From there, I might have tried to dress “nice” when I had a job later after college, and my mom thought I picked old lady dresses! I didn’t have an idea what looks “nice,” or young, hip, stylish, while still dressing like a professional.

What kills is that, well, I’m tall, and I started out pretty thin – anything should have looked marvelous on me, and I didn’t have the confidence to go for it. I’m not the fashion-and-makeup-obsessed sister of the house, I’m fairly much defined by my personality there, like, totally not fashion-or-makeup-interested, and I’m not looking for anything.

When people criticize how I dress now, when they say they’d like to see me dressed up or wearing skirts, I cringe. I’m not here for you to look at, to please your eye, for you to get a look at me, or for you to tell me how to display my assets. I don’t feel that I dress for modesty as much as people would suggest that they should be able to see my legs whenever they want. I don’t not wear skirts so people can’t see my legs, but because I hate wearing skirts. So, “dressing modestly” does not keep the attention away. Guys can be pigs when you’re dressed modestly and invite themselves to urge you to show more of your skin so they can look at it.  Which is gross. I’m not some pent-up sex fiend who needs the attention of men to feel validation, I’m not covering up to punish men or myself of anyone, I’m actually finally comfortable the way I choose to dress (which is not always very covered up, by the way, depending on the setting and the weather). It’s as if I can never please anyone, pleasing myself isn’t good enough for anyone else. I don’t dictate that everyone should choose to dress like I do if they want to be more colorful or decorative, if that’s what makes them happy and they have a sense of fashion that is part of who they are.

I think parents of young daughters they intend to cover up ought to know, modesty is not a magic shield against predatory men. Also, teenage girls can feel sexual stirrings under those clothes and take them off. It’s not like a chastity belt, so if you really want, you’re going to have to lock them up. Or talk to them and keep the lines of communication and trust open, and not try to “dress” the problem, which is their bodies, their dirty innocent bodies, which they can’t change that it changes. Leads to body image problems, sexual dysfunction, eating disorders, and a warped fear of wolves on the prowl. What are you doing for their brains? Stunting them with the narrow focus of piety and not able to handle the world around them if they are saving themselves for marriage so a man can protect them pretty much as soon as they leave your house.

(Sorry about the long reply for the simple comment).

 I like to wear pants. They are comfortable and practical. Possibly for “modesty” reasons, I consider them practical – depending on the work I have to do, you can bend down and no one can see your crotch like they could with a skirt. The choice of shoes that goes with pants tends to go along the same value of comfort and practicality, all while appearing professional at an office.

Meanwhile, I have been told by male co-workers that I would look better in skirts. You can’t cover up your legs to protect people from thinking about them, or even verbalizing to your modest daughters that they think they should be able to look at them. I had an ex-boyfriend who was obsessed with skirts. He explained that one time, on a windy spring day, and all the girls in their skirts, they blow up in the wind and one of them wasn’t wearing underwear. He could never stop hoping to see that again and just the thought of skirts, long or short, was a turn-on for him. I’ve had another ex-boyfriend who couldn’t stand my white cotton underpants. It’s not that they were immodest in fit, it’s that they were white, and cotton. I did have other styles and colors of underpants, it’s just that I’m not allowed to have anything he doesn’t like or wear anything I want for a specific reason I had. So, yeah, even if you are walking around being comfortable in your skin, wearing whatever you think is flattering and yet modest, comfortable, practical, for whatever reason you are a self-interested woman with your own reasons for your own choices, people will criticize you, predate you, knock down what makes you comfortable. They are thinking about all the parts you cover up, no matter why you choose to cover them up. Even as other people are making fashion choices which please them more, they will act like a victim if you don’t comply, if they can’t get you to change what you’re wearing for their personal pleasure.

I have understood this modesty thing to affect men in ways that once your daughter is married to one of them, they will similarly think that her body belongs only to him! And not to her! Wear what makes him feel comfortable, wear what makes him not jealous of attention you might get from other men. Show your legs, don’t show your legs, wear tight shirts, don’t wear tight shirts, your underwear is too ugly, your hair should be long, your hair should be up, you know I hate that color, you wear too much black, you dress like your mom, you dress like a man, you would look better in heels, why does it take you so long to pick out an outfit – come on! Loosen up and dress like a lady – whoa, too slutty wanna bang? “No”? What a bitch!

Modesty is a no-win situation if all you are setting someone up is to feel bad about themselves and to please others and… no matter what a woman does, it still comes down to them policing men’s sex drive or being responsible for a man’s pleasure, even to fulfill her husband’s priorities for her, as if she is a child. Filling the brain with all sorts of messages of shame and external validation doesn’t leave room for self-esteem and confidence and how to navigate toward one’s own goals in life. Who is the “stumbling block” here?

“Sexuality should not be considered dirty or something to be feared. As girls grow and mature into young women, they can learn to handle their budding sexuality in a healthy way.”

You mean, by teaching them that their body parts (and future body parts, which I note you have avoided addressing) are “intoxicating” and that they should “save” them for their future husbands? By covering them up, wearing layers, and reminding yourself that Grandpa might be able to see your undies while looking up your skirt?

You have a very interesting definition of what you consider “healthy”. Your control over what women and girls ought to do with their bodies and their clothing is no different than sexualizing them on billboards and commercials; the only difference is that one side is saying “show it off!” and the your side is saying “cover it up!”

The right way to correct this problem isn’t to control how women and girls dress; it’s fixing the root of the problem – objectification of women – so that women and girls have the freedom to dress as they please. You perspective is anti-feminist, and is fundamentally the same argument that religious people use to require women to wear, say, burqas, plain, floor length dresses, and/or head coverings (depending on the religious affiliation).

If you really believed that girls were “fearfully and wonderfully made”, and created in the image of God, you would encourage them to wear what felt most comfortable and most empowering to the individual (while teaching them the expectations that the world has for certain contexts – fancy dinners, school, job interviews, etc.), rather than imposing blanket-standards of dress on an entire population. I don’t see any “wonder” in the way this organization works; I only see “fear”. 

I am a Christian and I agree with you.  Men and boys need to be responsible for their own thoughts and feelings.  Telling women and girls what to wear is controlling.  I also think that in our society, and this is unfortunate, and I wish it was different, clothing does signal certain things to other people.  We are judged by are clothes, by our language and lots of other things.  I want my daughter to dress in what ever way is comfortable for her and I want her to be aware that other people may interpret how she dresses in a way she may not like.  She has to make choices about that and about how she wants people to react to her.  I don’t like this but find it to be true also.

It’s not just Christianity it’s Muslim too. 

I have to agree.  Just look at the styles and designs of swimware for little girls.  They have bikinis for 0-3 month BABIES! 

I struggle every year to find a swimsuit for my little girl, that has her look like a little girl and not a woman.  She is only 5, she doesn’t and shouldn’t dress like a young woman who is 20 years older. 

My question is also, when did we lose the focus of parenting off from our Sons?  I also have a young son (9 years old) and my Husband and I CONSTANTLY tell him that he respects all people, boy/girl or man/woman.  When a girl says, “No.” she means “No.”, girls are not to be gawked at or drooled over.  Why and when did the focus move from giving the boys/men some responsibility of their thoughts and actions to forcing the girls to so paranoid about the way they look because it might entice the boys?  Blame the girls because the boys are having “improper” thoughts.  I don’t get it…

 That is great!

I’m late to the party, but here’s my $1.25.

Modesty discussions do reflect aspects of control and victim-blaming, and are frequent in Christian and other conservative religions, though I would not say”For those outside of Christian culture, this is a laughable non-problem.” Look at this discussion and see how many blithely throw “slut” and other shaming words around, and the sexualization of women and girls (even little girls) in media.  Modesty and hyper-sexualization are flip sides of the same coin, and I don’t think that it detracts from your analysis to acknowledge it.

Also, It’s easy to miss with the way it’s written up, but your pointThird, why not just teach them not to sit cross-legged while wearing a skirt? the text says, “If you’re in a skirt, sit in a chair with your legs crossed.” 

Interesting discussion of how modesty and body image. I always felt that my body issues stemmed from being nerdly and bullied, or perhaps being a physically early bloomer and a mentally late bloomer (and creeped out by older men staring at me when I was a tween), but maybe church modesty had something to do with my issues after all :).

(edited because somehow someone’s profile got plugged in my comment o_O?)

I am very torn by this topic.  I’m a feminist and an athiest, but I’ve also been a middle school teacher for 20 years.  I totally agree, it’s creepy to get 8 year-old girls to worry about if they are showing too much future cleavage or not. I went through 13 years of Catholic school and it took me years to get over the whole modesty thing and enjoy my body.  But I see pre-pubescent girls dressed in extremely over-sexualized ways, too.  The boys can wear their big t-shirts and comfy cargo shorts, and the girls are in skin tight jeans and tiny tops. The boys can explore their whole personalities and the girls are relegated to seeing themsevles simply as “sexy” and “attractive”.  I do not know the answer.  How do we make young girls see themselves in a way that promotes their health and self-confidence, without the crazy modesty controllers AND without the over-sexualized media image-makers getting into their heads?

N-o-t   h-e-l-p-i-n-g

 “”When in reality, how you dress has no bearing on your availability to a sexual predator.”

Maybe not for a child, but I’m talking about teens/young women.  As I
stated, when I was that age, I attracted some really creepy guys when I
dressed in tight, revealing clothing.  Many first dates began with the
guy immediately driving to a secluded place and assuming that I wanted
sex. “No, for anybody. You can even study what the majority of victims or sexual assault and rape were wearing when they were assaulted. Most of the time, it’s sweats, pajamas or just normal clothes. Most victims are assaulted in their home (or a familiar home) by somebody they know. So, in reality, for people of all ages and genders, what one wears has no bearing on your availability to a sexual predator. Predators determine who they will assault/rape based on whether or not they will be caught, not based on whether or not they think their victim is “dressed provocatively.” Hell, according to this thing, if your stomach shows when you raise your arms you’re dressed provocatively.Do you think those dates saw how you were dressed and thought ,”Wow, I’m gonna ditch those plans we had because I’m totally sure that the skirt paired with spaghetti straps means she wants to have sex in my car.” Sex does not equal rape, so even if he did think you wanted sex, if you say no, then he has the obligation to stop his advances. That is what we should be teaching. And if this is the type of person who is gong to rape you after you say no to sex, then they were probably planning to drive to a secluded area for this purpose regardless of what you were wearing. Should we instead teach women to never get into a car with a man? Even if they’re on a date together?
“There are those who dress provocatively in order to advertise to males
that they want sex or are selling sex.  Why would we teach our
impressionable girls that it’s a good thing to emulate that?  I’m sorry,
but that is utter foolishness. “If a girl dresses a certain way because she’s looking for sex, then so be it. It’s up to her would-be partner to find out for sure (you know, by asking) if she really wants that. Sex does not equal rape or sexual assault. Dressing for sex does not equal dressing for rape. Why can’t we teach boys (or really, just everybody) that the only way to prevent rape is for rapists to stop raping people? Yes means yes, and no means no. Don’t have sex unless you are getting enthusiastic consent from all parties. Why must we keep pretending that the line between rape and sex is some sort of misunderstanding based on what the victim was wearing. It doesn’t matter what the victim wears, if the victim doesn’t give consent, then it is rape, not sex.  Since it’s pretty clear that wearing “provocative” clothing does not increase a woman’s chance of getting raped, rather than teaching girls and women that they should police what they wear, why don’t we just teach everybody that they should have enthusiastic consent before engaging in sexual activity with anybody? If anything, the things that increase a woman’s chance of getting raped would be: being related to a rapist, accepting a drink made by a close friend or acquaintance, jogging, being elderly, being disabled (physically or mentally), being a survivor of rape or sexual assault plus a number of other factors that are virtually uncontrollable by the victim.  It is not up to the victims to end rape and sexual assault; it’s up to the perpetrators.

I don’t think she ever said “all” religions. She’s specifically talking about a certain segment of Christianity. Of course, we can all agree that there are many religions and denominations within those, that teach similar ideas about modesty.

 Am I the only one who read this rant as if it was all said in one breath? Punctuation. Use it.

Which conventions would these be? I read the sexual harassment rules, and i don’t remember seeing anything about “modest” dress.

“It’s about me being told that parts of me are so wrong they must be covered. It’s about men like my husband being taught to distrust women for the “sinfulness” they carry due toinherently being attractive to men.”

Good news – this isn’t the view of Christianity at all! A woman’s sexuality and the sexual attractiveness of her body are INHERENTLY good. NOT sinful in the slightest. 

That’s the reason her body is reserved for marriage and covered except for her husband’s eyes – Precisely because it is SO good and mysterious and beautiful. To give anyone free access would cheapen just how special and amazing it is. 

Then let’s remember who accepted the apple from her.

Oh man Amanda! I hail from similar origins. Sucks so hard, doesn’t it?

Ugh, how sickening. How can people not realize how utterly dehumanizing and misogynistic this belief system is?

Fair enough – but why don’t you go after Islam, Judaism, Sikhism and Hinduism too?

Unfair to tarnish all Christians with the same brush – they aren’t all extreme like this!

 That bit about your brother.

Ugh. Just … ugh.

Sorry you had to go through that.

TRiG.

Because there ARE NO posts on this blog that deal with issues that specifically affect men. How am I supposed to comment on them if they are never posted?

 I brought this up because the author of this post specifically asked about why there had been some argument over the posting of non-religion related gender issues on the blog. I was explaining that there is nothing wrong with posting about women’s issues if you want, but if you only ever post about issues that affect women and never about issues that affect men, it comes off as bias. Yes, women have historically faced more problems than men and still do to some degree today, but that doesn’t mean that the only gender issues in the world are the ones that affect them. If the gender related posts are all about one gender, it really does give the wrong impression, purposefully or not.

I think if it were common to see different posts on different gender stereotypes that affect different genders, then people would be fine with it and there wouldn’t be a problem. But now we seem to have gone back to not talking about any non-religion related gender issues at all. It is a shame we can’t discuss it in an orderly way between people who are friends, but unfortunately that is the nature of internet blogs in that random people will pop in to make short comments without having the full discussion.

Dan the point is modesty is much preferred to a lot of the fashion that is out there the fact that people here seem to want teenagers to dress in provocative ways says a lot about their own perversions they don’t want rights for teenage girls, they want to gawk at them does the word juicy across a young girls butt earn her any kind of respect — from self or others?

Excuse me? There are plenty of women who are single parents and not because they fit  into your “slut” category.

Go fuck yourself.