Judge Tells Christian Counseling Student That Her School Was Right to Punish Her for Wanting to Convert Gay Clients

Oops – nemmind. Didn’t read closely.

Didn’t you use to have an option to delete your own comments?

Fair. If you try and take a stance on how to deal with people that is not the way the company wants you to, then you’re not doing your job, and that’s grounds for firing. 

I agree with this decision, but I do think the area of psychological counseling is a bit different from pharmacists, dentists, and bankers. Counseling is very personal. If I were seeing a counselor for career counseling and he/she was a religious fundamentalist who truly believed that women should not be in certain professions or do certain kinds of work…. Well, I think I’d rather have that person “recuse” him/herself and refer me to another counselor. Because even if they tried to follow the letter of the law, it would be very hard not to let their deeply held beliefs creep into any advice they may offer. 

Absolutely a counselor should not be able to tell a gay client that he/she is “damaged” or needs to be “cured.” But might it not be better for the client to move along to a counselor who won’t have motivation, either conscious or subconscious, to give bad advice?

Anyone else from the US surprised and pleased that this decision came out of a Georgia federal district court? It kind of gives me hope that maybe other lawsuits brought against religious entitlement in GA will have a similar outcome.

“The Holy Bible is MY DSM!”

Doc Martin, is that you?

 Oh, absolutely. The offers are coming in even as we speak.

If she isn’t on The 700 Club within the month, I’ll eat a communion wafer.

Props to you for having the mettle to read and analyze such dreadful muck without throwing things.  My ability to do so surfaces rarely, and is almost always followed by a need for serious light hearted down time.

My daughter recently came out as gay, and I want to familiarize myself with the kind of crap she’s likely to have to deal with. That doesn’t mean I don’t want to throw this nasty little book against the wall as I read it– but I’m reading it on my iPhone, so that would probably not be a good idea:-). Anyway, knowledge is power, I figure.

SJH, it has been explained to you repeatedly in many prior comment threads. Coming to yet another post which mentions LGBT issues and claiming you still don’t understand why being gay is okay because no one has held your hand and walked you though it quite to your satisfaction is disingenuous at best.

“…is it possible that a person can think something is innately unhealthy with homosexuality?”
Based on what? And even if s/he does, is there a reason s/he has to pressure others to believe as s/he does? I can think there’s something innately unhealthy about watching reality TV, but that doesn’t give me the right to tell other people not to do it, or to harass them for their choice to watch it. Is there proof– real, unbiased, scientific proof– that watching reality TV is unhealthy? Just because I think it’s wrong doesn’t mean I have the right to pressure others to believe as I do.

“Is there someone out there that can educate me as to why it is considered healthy? Why did we go from calling it a mental disorder to claiming that it is perfectly normal and healthy?”

As I said below, in 1973. It was declassified as a mental disorder in that year. If you think it’s unhealthy, while pretty much every psychiatrist in America disagrees with you, then what are you basing your opinion on? Can you give solid reasons– and again, I mean real, genuine, scientifically based reasons– why?  “Just because I think it’s gross” or “because the Bible says so” or even “just because this society has never accepted it” aren’t good reasons.

In short, people who believe homosexuality is healthy and normal really don’t need to explain why. The onus is on those who believe otherwise.

It was one judge. I doubt if he represents the majority of Georgia’s citizens.

Yay!!!!!!!!!  Judge gets it exactly right.

 That’s why theocrats like Ron Paul want to prevent federal courts from being able to rule on issues of the 1st amandment and equal protection (see Mr IloveFreedom’s we the people act and the official Texas returdlican platform).

 It has not been explained. The only explanation has been that most psychiatrists/counselors believe that it is normal. That is not good enough. There seem to be many that disagree including Jennifer Keeton.

I don’t expect anyone to hold my hand but it would be nice if those that claim that it is healthy can explain why.

I’m a cynical, pessimistic fucker. Sorry.

Sorry, I guess it’s the ACA in this case, not the APA.

 She can think whatever she wants as long as she can do her job. We know that, unlike being gay, eating greasy food is really unhealthy, however if I was working at McDonald’s and whenever someone walked to the counter (or more likely drove to the drive through window,  to avoid the need to walk 3 feet to get food) and ordered a triple cheeseburger, extra large fries and a gallon of florescent colored soda, i would have told them that they’re morons and they should order a small salad instead, it will be completely justified for the manager to tell me to either do my job or get the fu*k out.

Thank you. That’s very interesting and informative. If you listen to the crazed religious right, they would have you believe that the change in 1973 came out of nowhere and was due solely to pressure from gay activists.

If it did not happen so fast I would try the glass of water trick

Sorry, but if this therapist were racist instead, and could not help a student of a different race than herself, it would still not be acceptable that she couldn’t do her job and instead referred the student to a different counselor. No matter the scenario, if you have prejudices that prevent you from doing your job, that’s YOUR fault, YOUR problem, and the student shouldn’t have to suffer, even if that “suffering” is merely being shoved along to somebody else. Do your job, or find another line of work.

 Because most of us grew up.

“… all of the people who drive the church patriarchy are straight males.”

Or, so they claim.

I try to remind people all the time that the conservative Christians in the USA really believe they should have special rights because of their religion. It is anti-American, selfish, possibly the thought a sociopath would have. There is no need to read the bible to make u an atheist, all one has to do is see how these Puritans, aka modern-day Religious Right aka Conservative Christians, treat others and it will surely make people look to a different ideology/dogma to study.

I’m not arguing with the legal findings here. I’m just saying from the client side — If my pharmacist is a religious fundamentalist with wacky beliefs, I don’t care so long as she gives me my prescriptions in a professional manner. But if my counselor (including if I’m a state college student using the university counseling center) is a person with wacky views about women or gays — well, I would rather know that up front and be able to choose another counselor. 

It’s too easy for people to rationalize in something as subjective as counseling. So I suppose in a way, I feel like people with strong religious beliefs that conflict with civil rights (and other current laws) are not really competent to be in counseling at all, at least at a state university. Which is a whole other can of worms.

So I don’t know, is it acceptable for a counselor to say “I can try to assist you, but due to my personal beliefs, you may prefer to find another counselor,” and then let the client make a decision?

Hard not to be pessimistic when confronted with the existence of Georgia.

Especially when you live there.

Hemant, thanks for posting this. Related to this is a bigger problem as well.  That is, so-called Christian counselors are graduating by the thousands from religious schools that have no intention of following the ethical guidelines of the ACA. These people are getting licenses and practicing in many states. That is why The Secular Therapist Project is so important. We want secular people to know that their counselor has no religious hidden agenda. When people are in pain, they are more susceptible to influence. A surreptitiously religious counselor, can easily steer someone back into religion or spirituality. That is actually the goal of Christian counselor training programs – to keep people infected. Please let people know about seculartherapy.org. Also, support schools and politicians that uphold ethical behavior in counselors as well as pharmacists, physicians, etc. The religious right is trying to change the entire ethical game to reflect their distorted sexual agenda.

 And everyone will be better off.  She’ll be making a living doing something she’s good at, broadcasting her “like such as” stupidity, far and wide. We can buy popcorn and watch the trainwreck on TV.

I smell a porno in the makes… Reality Kings?  I know you’re hiding in there…  “I’m sorry Miss Keeton but I like boys…”  *Tears top+bra open*  “Well Billy, let me help you with that problem.”  Insert corny 80’s wawa guitar music.

Just another liar for Jesus. This has nothing whatsoever to do with gay marriage and she was never asked to change her beliefs altogether.

The court ruling quotes extensively from the conversations she had with her professors. It’s very clear what happened.

 Only if they get married first

Rubbish. Court documents don’t lie. I can only assume that Jennifer lied to you… which would be in character with the sort of person she seems to be.

“So I don’t know, is it acceptable for a counselor to say “I can try to assist you, but due to my personal beliefs, you may prefer to find another counselor,” and then let the client make a decision?”
Frankly, that’s like a fireman saying, “I hate houses painted green and your’s is, so you should probably find another fireman because I’ll probably just let it burn to the ground.” What happens while you’re finding another fireman? Your house burns to the ground.

The point here isn’t that a person with a certain belief set should have the integrity to do their job without allowing their personal beliefs to interfere, although that’s certainly true as well. The point is that, in this case, you had a person who not only refused to separate her personal feelings from her professional conduct, she left no doubt that her personal feelings were going to heavily influence her professional conduct in a negative manner. If her judgement is so poor in that matter, what kind of counselor do you imagine she’d make? 

Note that I’m not discussing the legal outcome, I’m speaking in the sense of professional ethics. Defense lawyers routinely defend individuals they detest, but they’re sworn to present the best possible defense they’re able to and they’re expected to live up to those standards. Emotional counselors MUST be held to standards at LEAST as strict as their effect on a client has the potential to be even greater.

Raping boys has nothing to do with sexuality. It’s about exerting power. I don’t get your Catholic comment. Can’t tell if your are sarcastic or stupid. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt.

 Rather than turn Silo’s comment into some inanity about misandry, why not look at the real bigotry embedded in this otherwise well intentioned post? Fact is, not all gay men enjoy anal sex. Many do not. Gay sex is not by definition anal sex. It would behoove people with real interest in equality to dispel of this myth, asap. Source: http://www.good.is/post/gay-sex-is-not-anal-sex/

 I wouldn’t be too quick to worry about that statistic: I’d want to see the names of the publications printing those “five star” reviews.  I’m willing to bet today’s paycheck that they are ALL EVANGELICAL CHRISTIAN PUBLICANS. 

I didn’t mean in a official sense.

 “Here you are, sweetie: I’ve got a whole list of cashier, file clerk, sales girl and even secretary listings.  Oops–just dropped ’em on the floor here.  Well, just kneel down here in front of my chair and pick ’em up, and while you’re down there…

I’m an RN working in NYC.  I’ve had experiences of having to give care to violent felons who were cuffed to their beds.  What would I be as a professional if I refused to give care to someone whose life-history I didn’t “agree” with? I’d be unfit to call myself a professional and should have my license yanked. 

And you are a clueless twit, exactly as Chris Hedges described in “Death of the Liberal Class.” You may want to be independent, but there are two clear sides and you better pick one. This is for all the marbles and what’s coming isn’t going to be at all nice, a lot worse than name calling. Reason, logic and “answers” won’t be any part of it. Wringing your hands won’t stop it, although if people like you had taken a stand thirty years ago we might not be in this hole.

and studies show that something like 95% of pedophiles are straight

  “when someone voluntarily chooses to enter a profession, he or she must comply with its rules and ethical requirements.”

So simple, yet impossible to understand for certain people. 

 So you’re claiming that the court documents are poorly written and incorrect?  Face it.  Your friend is an anti-gay bigot who supports “conversion therapy” and she made this abundantly clear to everybody in the school that she would push her anti-gay views on any potential clients she had.  The administration didn’t go seeking out this information to “persecute” her like this was some sort of witch hunt, as you seem to be implying. 

Hah! As if you have something of value to offer as an “independent” voter who “leans left.” You are not even being offered any left choices. The time for your approach would have been to stop Reagan, but your kind left the field back then or believed the “reason” of corporate tools. Your “independence” won’t save you from the Right, their criteria will be “Are they one of us?” And you won’t meet it. 

Well, I guess I should mention, 30 years ago I was 2 years old, and I didn’t have many political opinions then.  These days, I am a voter with money that I put to causes I believe in, though I may not be the honored age of whatever you are.  I wasn’t of voting age for Reagan, either.  Go me for failing to stop something I couldn’t take part in.

And I agree, the Right won’t have me.  Good thing, too, I disagree with nearly all of their platform!  They probably won’t have you, either, so I guess we’re in the same boat there.

Damn right! I love it when the law kicks ass.

 Most pedophiles who claim an adult orientation identify as straight.  It’s only the anti-gays who link being gay with being a pedophile, usually as a scare tactic. 

Damn right the right won’t have me. I know what side I’m on and have been on it my whole life. Not only am I ready for the right, I have been organizing for that day for years now, so I won’t be facing them alone.

Doesn’t matter that you weren’t around for Reagan. Your choice now is to follow a worldview that has been proven not to be accurate, (ironically a worldview that prides itself on being evidence-based): that we make our political, economic,  and societal choices based on reason and logic. Lakoff and Westin did not invent the idea of the power of emotions, and they have underplayed the science that exists of how to generate those emotions. Go check out the Creel Commission of WWI and books like “Public Opinion” by Lippmann, Hedges’ book I mentioned above, or Chomsky’s “Manufacturing Consent.” .  Where do you think Goebbels learned everything he knew about propaganda? The British campaign to get the U.S, into the war and Wilson’s campaign to get the U.S. public behind the war.

The fight that’s coming will not be about reason and logic. It will be about power and numbers, which is why the oligarchs are manufacturing idiots like the one in the story. And manufactured she was. (BTW- The Georgia courts throwback ruling on an inconsequential topic matters little when the Supreme Court is operating on behalf of the 0.01% on matters of great import). And a fight it will be. I wish it could be otherwise, but I see no way we can stop it through electoral means at this point. We’ve had as clear a set of wake up calls as could be imagined and the response has been tepid. Maybe if people stopped trying to push the idea that if we all just got along, everything would be OK. We know what the response of people like the bimbo in this article will be, we saw it in Italy and Germany in the 1930s. Who do we expect will rescue us if we don’t fight back and stop it from happening here?

 The holey bible is full of examples of DSM types.

 I am familiar with that research. I was not convinced when I first read about it and I have become even less convinced the more I think about it. It seems to me to make some oversimplified assumptions. I am no psychiatrist so there is a good chance that I am misunderstanding something but I am using what I know, have time to research and a little reason.

Her research did not seem to address the possibility that there are negative ramifications to homosexual behavior nor the potential consequences to the individuals local community. Nor did it take into account the fact that many doctors/specialists at the time would treat homosexuality and “cure” it. What about those cases? Did they not exist or did she ignore them?

It did not seem to address the fact that homosexual behavior runs contrary to the functionality of our bodies. Doesn’t this, in itself, define it as a “disorder” meaning that the behavior is disordered from the machine’s function and/or use? How does disordered behavior lead lead to progress for a species?

Also, there is controversy on just how the APA finally made its ruling considering that there was only a slight majority of a small population of psychiatrists in favor of changing its classification. There is a lot of speculation and evidence that the political climate was not conducive to have a non-biased outcome.

When you add the fact that Dr. Hooker was a activist for the homosexual cause, it just adds to my skepticism. Although her experiment seemed to be well designed to avoid bias perhaps she was to quick to draw conclusions once she felt her data lead to her desired conclusion.

I don’t get it, why would a tranny want to convert gays? That’s a dude, right?

She is Ann Colter-ish but that’s beside the point.

Homosexuality is benign in and of itself.  However, in the United States, there’s a higher chance of gay men contracting HIV for those who don’t use condoms and have multiple sex partners.  Gay women have below-average transmission rates of HIV.  In other parts of the world people are are equally likely, or more likely, to transmit HIV if they are heterosexual.  There’s a higher chance of being beaten or murdered.  There’s a higher rate of suicide.
A man having sex with a man, or a woman having sex with a woman—that only leads to a healthy sex life and a healthy emotional state.

 Really?  Do we need the anti-trans slurs?

But how many other counselors do this to our children and are not caught? This is just ome out of many instances where students maybe turned away because of the professionals belief system. Although there are rules and regulations, we might have to look more closely to help our children identify that this behaviour is wrong and unwarranted.

Good god they are the way god birthed them.you need a new vision if that’s not possible go work as a clerk.

To use a phrase that originated on gaming forums, Onamission5 just won the Internet. Well done. 

And no, in case anyone is wondering, there’s no sarcasm intended in this comment.

Hell yes!

Or if you live in Louisiana anywhere outside of New Orleans, which is its own country. 

No — it’s a stab at psychopaths who happen to be straight males.  Not a stab at all straight males.  Pedophiles like CHILDREN.  Whatever children they have ready access to.  In the case of priests and footbal coaches, it’s usually boys. 

“…not intended to be a crucible for counselors to test metaphysical or moral propositions.” – One of the best sentences I’ve ever read.

 I think I can safely assume that, like the majority of paulbots, you never bothered to look beyond the catchy slogans and into Ronnie’s legislative history.

I know which site I’m on. Also, you do realize that calling an argument ignorant is NOT the same thing as calling a person ignorant, right? And even if I did call him ignorant, we’re all ignorant about plenty of things. I’m ignorant about how to fix a car. The Other Weirdo was ignorant about his representation of Silo’s argument.

Hey just to let you know, just about the entire school was against her. The KKK came to support her and almost all of us were out there with a counter-protest.

 Unfortunately, I live in Georgia. Fortunately, Atlanta is a gay mecca! Also…would this happen to be the Gerald Thibault who went to school in Rochester? If so, glad to see we’re on the same page, literally and figuratively.

Just a couple coments: 1) I am not sure where he got ”conversion therapy” from. Jen sees homosexuality as a ‘lifestyle,’ something that can be changed, but I dont remember reading anywhere…or hearing in any video clip anything about conversion therapy. Sharing ones beliefs is much different. 2) Yes, she could have gone to a private school whose tuition is three times as much, and where she would have to find a full time job because she would have to find an apartment and such, when she has many friends, and I believe family in Augusta and ASU is much cheaper, she wasnt protesting the schools views/opinions of this community, she was just adding in her own opinion…it was the school that haulted her saying she couldnt hold those opinions. If she is wanting to do christian counseling, she is probably going to want to work at a christian private school, or start her own practice…. plus private christain counseling program of public counseling program…she can be hired at public schools in Georgia either way. 3) This blog also leaves out what the remediation plan included…they were wanting her to attend (on top of regular classes) GLBTQ events in town, attend three workshops in a semester and be able to get certificates for all fo them, write up 2 page reports every month and check in every month (with the goal being  for her to change her view form thinking that it is not a lifestyle, but genetic and acceptable…which in her faith, its not…so yes, they were wanting her to change her views/beliefs) They also wanter her to read 10(which doesnt sound like a lot, but remember, she is in a masters program on top of all this, plus probably has a part time job, and other obligations) article from journals and report on them. This is all to be done in a semester, and if she failed to do any part of it, or do it incorrectly according to those who were reviewing it, she was to be dimissed from the program. 

Personally, I do believe that jen, wanting to be a councelor, needs to understand more the GLBTQ community, but I also believe that the college was excessive and in the wrong for this rediculously intense remediation plan. I can see asking her to attend A…like one….workshop and being able to write something on it, but to threaten to kick her out because she is unable to conform to what they are asking her to believe as a public school…is rediculous! 

I said nothing about the libertarian philosophy, I was talking about what Ron Paul actually does, here in reality.

Yes, I am.

I’d make a guy like you weak in the knees, bud.

A guy like me? What kind of guy is that?

In addition, even though I’m an atheist who believes that religious beliefs are often actively harmful to a person’s health, it is not my place to use my professional authority or position to try to deconvert religious patients.  The people I see in the hospital are often in dire physical and emotional straits, and the last thing they need is someone telling them that their beliefs are stupid, they have it all wrong,  and they need to quit leaning on the everlasting arms of God and start trusting scientific medicine.  If having their pastor pray over them comforts them, it’s helping them emotionally.   Just as it would be inappropriate professionally for a religious nurse to proselytize to patients, it’s inappropriate for me to push my atheism in my practice.  At most, I can explain to patients the way their bodies work, the scientific and evidentiary basis of their treatment, and teach them how they can use evidence-based practices to improve their health.   I don’t have to pray with patients, but I can call their pastor or priest or just hold their hand and listen to them pray.  Sometimes I get asked about my beliefs.  I try to tactfully suggest that my beliefs are not the issue – it’s what the patient believes that is most important to their health.  
These concepts were drilled into us as nursing students, and any student who could not or would not comply would be expelled from the program.  This was clearly explained upon entry to nursing school as an integral expectation of the standard of care, so every student had fair warning of what was expected of them.

Author might consider to invest into the the ethical language ,it’s public site ,you know,not your grandma kitchen.Also,being a teacher  is not just passing praxis.

I love that Hemant brought up pharmacists because that’s exactly what I thought of when I read the Judge’s decision.  Wonder if she’ll appeal.  Would love the Supreme Court to address this issue once and for all.

and luckily even the dumb/racist citizens of georgia are smarter than you!

Yep, I’m definitely that guy. Nice to hear from you again.

And while it’s great that Atlanta is a gay mecca, it’s also a little sad, knowing that every single vote cast by that mecca will be swallowed up and rendered useless by the surrounding wasteland.

Same thing with Austin.

Would you like a rainbow background on your license and plates?

That sounds AWESOME!

I don’t drive, but if I did have a car and that was an option I’d take it.

TRiG.

“do what’s best for their patients” – subjective.
“Keeton was using her faith to harm certain ones” – subjective.
I think there is a place for faith-based counseling. I agree it’s probably not from a government institution, though. It’s obvious that the author that is condemning personal bias is indeed bias. We all are.
Human youth need direction. Humans need direction. America seems to think the greatest ill is  direction from a deep belief. Instead we cater to the lowest common denominator. My subjective opinion is that it’s gotten us highly advanced in technology and scholarly research – and given us derelict ethics devoid of anything that is contrarian to our raw human desires.

We need to truly ask what it means to “do what’s best”.

“She supported “conversion therapy,” something that doesn’t work and harms the patients. ”

This is a pretty bold statement that you make. Do you, in fact, have PROOF that someone is harmed by trying to alter their behavior or lifestyle as it pertains to homosexuality?  I don’t think you do and, therefore, your opinion here means nothing.

Here’s one back at you… Research findings published in The Journal of Men’s Studies, 18, 84-102
http://www.narth.com/docs/newsumm.html

The bottom line: I personally know several former homosexuals who are now happily heterosexual, some of them are married with kids.  I also know gays who have confessed that they were never homosexual by orientation but became gays through “sexual experimentation”.

Your argument simply will not stand.  If there is even one case in which someone changed their orientation, then your argument is mute… Period.

Ignorance, bigotry & sexism is extremely un-hott.