A Response to the Question Atheists Always Get: ‘What if You’re Wrong?’

In addiion to Jasper: the way believers picture heaven it’s a horribly boring place.

People often ask: What if you’re wrong about Jesus and I’m on a road to hell. The boiler plate answer most atheists give is what if the believer is wrong about the other 1000’s of gods out there. And that’s correct. I often use the image from “The Mummy” w/ Brandon Frazier of the guy who’s wearing a few dozen religious medallions (http://youtu.be/pDWR5RkWRTY) to illustrate this point.

But another part of this question I rarely see addressed is “What have you lost?” I’d like to point out some of the things I may lose by becoming (and having been) a believer.

I would loose any excuse to discriminate against my fellow man.

I would loose the hate associated with religious bigotry.

I would loose the inability to date others outside the flock simply because they didn’t believe as I did.

I would loose the guilt associated with being human because my mate and I choose to do what came naturally.

I would loose having to give up my money to perpetuate a myth.

I would loose the judgmental looks and accusations that come from not being christian enough.

I would loose having to struggling with science/religious conflicts.

I would loose the fear of not being christian enough.

These are but a few things I have to loose. I’m certain there’s more but that’s off the top of my head. It’s a small price but one I’m willing to pay.

*Lose not loose. Sorry, but I had to say it. Good points though

Spending eternity repeatedly telling some guy that he’s awesome would be kinda boring, yes.

Something Christians who bring up Pascal’s wager never seem to consider is that if you choose to believe in God purely for the sake of hedging your odds in a potential afterlife, then you haven’t actually accepted God into your heart and are only pretending to believe. Do they think their god wouldn’t see through that ruse?

The worst example I’ve encountered is a few years ago when my sister sent me a letter urging me to become a believer, concluding with “Why not give it a try? What have you got to lose?” What hit me most about that suggestion, is that she seems to regard belief as something so facile that one can just arbitrarily start believing something without the slightest bit of conviction.

In my experience as a Christian, I have “lost” all of the things on your list as well. Please know that not only is that not uncommon in the Christian community, but the Bible addresses all of those things as well.

– The story of The Good Samaritan / “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female; for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.” are a few anti-discrimination / religious bigotry texts, in fact Christ forgave those who crucified him,

– Dating others “outside the flock” is a Biblical concept,but not a commandment or law. Marrying a like minded person is spoken about- which makes sense purely from a compatibility standpoint. Either way, it’s a recommendation, not a law or something considered sinful,

– “Feeling guilty for being human” is an emotion that I observe much more frequently in people who decide that there is no God, Christians generally feel loved and forgiven, which is the opposite of feeling guilty. Knowing that God created us and cares for us is not guilt – producing. Freud spent a lot of time dealing with guilt from a scientific perspective,
(too long to get into, interesting to google) because so many people struggle with it. In my opinion it’s the opposite: Feelings of guilt are part of the human condition, and one of the reasons people respond to the “good news” is that it can alleviate guilt and anxiety. I have atheist friends whose primary reason for going to therapy are “feelings of guilt and anxiety” (I don’t mean ex Christians, but people raise in secular homes).

– Giving up money to perpetuate a myth is in the eye of the beholder, plenty of money is spent on things that people love that does not always seem practical to others.

– Judgmental looks? Only from people who didn’t pay attention to Christ’s constant reminders not to be judgmental!

– I’m pretty well versed in science and I don’t have any conflicts in that area. Science and religion are absolutely compatible.

– Nobody should fear “not being Christian enough.” When the disciples asked that question the answer was that we need only “as much faith as a mustard seed.” The whole point of the Gospel is that Christ does the work, not us “lest any man should boast.”

I respect everyone’s authentic belief – I’m writing this only to say that as a Christian I dislike the very things that you dislike, and I don’t want to feel any of those negative things either.

Peace

I see your distinction, but ultimately they are both examples of just pretending to believe.

“Make believe” is fun when playing with kids, but it doesn’t make a solid foundation to build a worldview on.

Along the lines of the “The Mummy” clip posted in this discussion, this guy has superstitions covered as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-mnxKtFhdY

It would be like the old Chris Farley interviews on SNL. “Remember that one time, when you turned water into wine? That was awesome.”

That list wasn’t all encompassing however fact of the matter
is that every point I made there has either happened to me or people I know. I appreciate your desire for discussion. So here’s my thought process to my post.

My brother for many, many yrs was terrified of hell. He went to counseling for it and that still didn’t help. He very much thought that if he wasn’t perfect, like Jesus supposedly was, then he was going to be burning. Now I’m sure you’re going to tell me that the church he went to wasn’t representing “real” christianity. I really don’t care. Every single christian believes they represent “real” christianity.

Dating outside the flock may be “only biblical” but it was enough to have a father ask me to leave his daughter and never call
her again because I wasn’t Christian enough. I’ve also read many accounts of this sort of thing happening to others.

I don’t see how you can say that it’s atheists, not christians who feel guilty for being human. It’s the christian who believes they’re undeserving. When I was a believer and had sex w/ my GF, I felt like I let “god” down. How many girls are being brought up right now to fear their own bodies because they may lead “boys to sin?” It’s not an atheist telling people that they’re horrible evil people for simply being born. It’s not the atheist who anguishes and debates whether babies are burning in a lake of fire because they died before being “saved”. It’s not the atheist who’ll let children die while praying for a miracle rather than take them to a doctor. I don’t believe I’m guilty of anything other than being myself and as such have nothing to be forgiven for or “saved” from.

What would you call giving money to an org that denies
evolution, says’s the entire the earth was flooded, believes in talking snakes, donkeys, etc ,etc. They’re myths. Plain and simply. Tithing helps to perpetuate this.

So am I and no they’re not. The earth simply was not flooded, the exodus is highly implausible. Raising of the dead, walking on water, talking snakes and donkeys, earth created in 6 days???? Really??? And you say this is compatible???

This rational would also only make sense when approaching a life long atheist. I don’t know the statistics off of the top of my head but I believe most unbelievers deconverted. So to tell us to give it a try is stupid since we’ve already given it a try (and many of us quite devout in our trying).

“Feeling guilty for being human” is an emotion that I observe much more
frequently in people who decide that there is no God, Christians
generally feel loved and forgiven, which is the opposite of feeling
guilt.”

In my experience this is completely inaccurate for a number of reasons. Depression, guilt and other negative emotions are not talked about in the church because it ruins the selling point of finding joy only within Christ but it is certainly a pressing problem. It is only upon deconverting that I found out what true joy and self-acceptance was. And it’s not “sinning” without recrimination despite what so many Christians believe. In fact, quite the opposite.

This is the same kind of nonsense used by alternative medicine scams.

If it worked, there would be some evidence. The treatments have been thoroughly tested, but continue to fail to do better than placebo, because they are just placebos.

Some are more elaborate placebos than others, but they are still just placebos.

Religion also claims What’s the Harm?

There is a good site that explains the harms and can be extrapolated from religion alternative medicine to alternative medicine religion.

http://whatstheharm.net/

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No, just the PW version is pretending. “Give it a try” presupposes that the “try” will be authentic – and that the result may very well be non-interest in faith.
From the perspective that God is real “give it a try” makes sense, from the perspective that God does not exist it makes no sense whatsoever.

You missed my point. The reason I mentioned Freud is that he was one among many who felt that “feeling guilty” was a complex reaction (etc, etc) and part of the human condition. I happen to agree – and I find it amazing that faith can alleviate a human condition shared by many. The feeling of guilt is complex, but manifests as anxiety or lack of peace of mind.
You are correct – forgiveness by a 3rd party would make no sense, unless that 3rd party is God.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatitudes

You’re speaking about some of the miracles in the Bible, and that’s what makes them miraculous. The concept of God doing the miraculous has no bearing on scientific thought being true or false.

“Depression, guilt and other negative emotions are not talked about in the church because it ruins the selling point of finding joy only within Christ.”

I don’t say this sarcastically, but after years on FA I’ve come to the conclusion that I am blessed to be a Christian in the NYC area. Every good church I have attended is all about speaking openly about those very things – to the point that there are support groups specifically for depression, etc. that take a holistic (mind/body/spirit) approach to wellness.

Self acceptance based Christ’s love is is literally the bedrock of many ministries.

Did you ask her to give Atheism a try? What’s fair is fair!

I think it would be hell to be one of the houris!

Perhaps it is the bedrock. It doesn’t take very well though at least not for those whose psychological makeup involves an innate desire to question. The reason I think is because of substitutionary atonement. It’s a noxious belief that because we are sinful and thus repellant to God that we are separated from him and deserve to be crucified. In order to bridge this separation God killed himself for us. Sure God loved us so much that he died for us but that doesn’t mean we were worthy. We weren’t. Nope, we are so horrible that we deserve to be physically tortured and burned for all eternity and it’s only because God is so nice that we have the option of living forever with him. Anyway, a lot of theologies are moving away from teaching this self-hate (aka substitutionary atonement) and couching Christ’s sacrifice using different language. I’m all for this. But for those who still teach it (and it’s still by far the most prominent view of the crucifixion) and abide by it the damage to it’s practitioners is great.

Heaven, heaven is a place
A place where nothing, nothing ever happens
— David Byrne, Talking Heads

Yeah the not really saved phenomenon. “My parents raised me in church, I was baptized as a kid, even became a deacon but I never made the decision to follow him! Now I am. Praise be to God!”

Even as a Christian I thought those stories stupid and nothing more than an attempt to manipulate people into more devout behavior. Now the sincere conversions from those who never even attempted to worship are different and perhaps that’s what you’re referring to.

That’s the point… a caring person reads the Bible and finds it justifies their compassion, an authoritarian reads it and finds it justifies their cruelty. Both demand their interpretation is correct and vetted, while the atheist scratches her head.

“Valhalla sounds like a lot of fun. Do modern-day pagans practicing the
Norse faith believe women will go into battle as well? That’d be cool.”

I don’t know about the women specifically, but I just wanted to point out (as one of those modern-day Pagans) that Valhalla is not the equivalent of heaven, there is only a 50% chance of anyone who dies in battle going there (at least by some sources — the other 50% will wind up with Freyja in Folkvangr instead), and there are many, many possible non-Valhalla endings for a person, including Helheim (NOT THE SAME THING as Christian Hell despite the vaguely similar names and it would be useful to keep in mind that Baldr, himself one of the Gods, winds up there) or reincarnating later in your family line.

I knew I wasn’t the only one!!!

Not really, I’m saying “unless that third party is God” and the kalam is first cause (?) argument for God’s existence.

I have had the same thoughts, of course. I think I look at it as less that “we are sinful and thus repellant to God that we are separated from him and deserve to be crucified” and more like a mathematical equation: If God is perfect and can only be in the presence of perfection, we have to be “perfect” to be with him. (similar to eastern philosophy, except they get infinite chances to achieve “perfection).
So: Imperfection X Christ = perfection.
(Awkward, I know, but if I were to be honest that’s more the way I look at it – not so much being “blamed” for being “sinful” more like another law of the universe).

The change in language that I’ve seen is more along the lines of taking very literally the idea that Christ died to save “everyone.”

OT verses are a good way to demonstrate that the same god who is Jesus later in the story had some very skewed priorities. His first attempt at a covenant was mostly concerned with telling his followers to kill people and animals for his pleasure. Even if he changes the covenant later, the old one still reflects on the character of its designer.

Sure, the new testament proposes a different god than the old testament, but then it tells us repeatedly that this is the same god.

I do. Since I believe in God, miracles are a small stretch!

You mean universalism I assume. I’ve also heard it explained as Christ died because of our sins not for our sins. Both of those explanations of course are less psychologically damaging. Substitutionary atonement in the strictest sense is beginning to lose favor I believe.

Just for the record there are problems with your mathematical equation analogy most of which have to do with the whys of a God that has to be around perfection creating beings who can choose not to be perfect and then condemning them to hell for being tricked into succumbing to the fatal design flaw. Unless of course they accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior, a man that lived two thousand years ago written about in only one ancient book that is full of inconsistencies and mistranslations.

Deathbed Woman has an oddly impressive rack….

Either way it doesn’t matter, ashes to ashes, dust to dust and all that. No matter what, we are destined to be consumed by mother nature and to be recycled by the cosmos.

Blacksheep,

If i created the ocean, and part of it’s beauty was it’s power, depth, and storms, along with that comes the danger of shipwrecks and drowning. We don’t get mad at the ocean, that’s just its nature.

Of course we do not get mad at the ocean.

The ocean does not claim to be a perfect Creator, while making excuses for imperfect creations.

–

There are no more inconsistencies than there are at an archeological dig – things that seem wrong start to make sense as one spends more time pondering and studying.

Time does not convert wrong into right.

Spending time studying homeopathy, or any other scam, does not make homeopathy any less nonsense.

Time does not convert. gullibility does.

Every religion can make the same claim about spending time pondering and studying.

All religions are equally valid and equally invalid – as long as they make claims to the supernatural.

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Valhalla is, in fact, open to both genders. If you die honorably, in combat, and win the coin toss between Odin and Freyja, you can end up in Valhalla regardless of whether you’re a Man or a Woman.
When Ragnarok comes, EVERYBODY in Valhalla will fight. 🙂

The time that bloke in the movie wasted fiddling with his religious medals and mouthing incantations would have been much better spent running away.

But then time spent on any form of religious observance has always struck me as being time wasted.

Hm, I think it’s time I make a comic that draws in a guy’s over-sized bulge every time I portray a male.