Remember the Kids Who Protested When Their Gay Administrator was Forced to Resign? This Catholic Wants Them Expelled December 22, 2013

Remember the Kids Who Protested When Their Gay Administrator was Forced to Resign? This Catholic Wants Them Expelled

A few days ago, upon finding out that Vice Principal Mark Zmuda was forced to resign from Eastside Catholic High School (in Seattle, Washington) for the Jesus-induced crime of being a gay man who married the love of his life, 300 students at the school staged a protest in his honor:

Students protest on behalf of Mr. Zmuda (Steve Ringman – The Seattle Times)

Rebecca Hamilton, a Catholic blogger here on Patheos and a long-time member of the Oklahoma House of Representatives, was appalled by what happened.

I mean how dare those administrators, right?! Wait… no. She’s perfectly fine with them. It’s the students she has it out for:

The students who have walked out should be dismissed from the school. If that means temporarily closing the school, or maybe even lowering the tuition a bit so that a less entitled group of young people can study there, so be it.

From the behavior of these students, I would guess that this school has been equipping young people to follow the world within the Church. It would appear that it has succeeded so well that their first loyalty is not to the Church, but to the trendy morality of the larger culture. That equals a failed Catholic school in my books.

In her mind, it’s a failed Catholic School because the students voiced their support of someone who fell in love and got fired for it. She can’t even bring herself to write about the vice principal’s marriage without putting it in quotation marks. Seriously.

At least the students understand that the problem here isn’t Mr. Zmuda — the problem is the Church’s belief that gay people must force themselves to be celibate and single if they want to be in any position of power within its walls.

Meanwhile, Hamilton, still stuck in a harsh mindset where bigotry is acceptable as long as it’s in the name of faith, has a lot to learn.

(Thanks to Steven for the link)


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  • I agree. The kids should be expelled. They are not good Catholics, and the sooner they learn this, the better, happier, more ethical lives they will lead. Excommunication is in order, as well.

  • Neko

    Has Rebecca Hamilton ever been right about anything.

  • L.Long

    Yes expelling the students would be a valued lesson in the fact the RCC is a haven for absolute bigotry and when the RCC start spouting buyBull BS they may learn jesus is not about love but hate.
    ALso the election of Rebecca Hamilton shows that most of the people in her area are Ahole bigots as well, her job is to 1-represent her voters and 2-enforce the constitution, she is failing on 2 and must be doing 1 OK so they are also bigots.

  • Achron Timeless

    Well hey, if the political arena doesn’t work out for her, I hear there’s a library looking for people just like her to be on their board…

  • WallofSleep

    “It would appear that it has succeeded so well that their first loyalty
    is not to the Church, but to the trendy morality of the larger culture.”

    Why is it always a strictly binary, “either/or” with these types? They never consider other possibilities, like perhaps these students just don’t like bigotry regardless of how it’s dressed up.

  • A3Kr0n

    Sure, why not? Get those 300 students into a decent collage, and lower tuition to a level more appropriate for this type of collage. I think passing the offering plate around to the students is the more appropriate level.

  • Lee Miller

    I think we’re going to have to wait for my generation (I’m 62) to die off before we see major change with this kind of bigotry, then probably the generation of those in their 40s and 50s now will have to go before we start shedding so much negative cultural baggage.

  • Coolred38

    I thought our goal in life is to raise our children to be thinkers and doers…but when they think and do…someone somewhere wants them punished for it. I believe when an elected official has the cajones to say something ignorant like this…there should be immediate consequences…like removal from office. Maybe instilling a fear of consequence for such unfiltered comments would make some elected officials think before speaking…or just think in general. When did elected representatives stop caring and worrying about what they said…the moment they realized not enough of the general public care enough to do anything about it but shake their head in resignation at another ignorant politician.

  • SeekerLancer

    Not only that but I’d love the church to lose the thousands upon thousands of dollars in the tuition those kids’ parents are wasting.

  • ryn

    Hamilton could not be reached for comment as there is a Duck Dynasty marathon in progress.

  • Oranje

    Celibacy hasn’t worked among their clergy despite their advocation and attempts to cover things up. Why would anyone think they have the credibility to advocate celibacy for anyone else?

  • Oranje

    When we stopped caring. Honestly, elected officials who said stupid things used to be gone with relatively little fuss. In the last couple of decades we’ve started celebrating anti-intellectualism, and it seems to be a major undercurrent in populist approaches to elected positions.

  • basementmatt

    I commented on her blog. I was polite, but she deleted it.

  • Castilliano

    Yep, she’s Catholic.

  • Jeremiah Traeger

    Catholic schools have a great track record for producing non-Catholics. I almost assume this was intentional based on the numbers :p

  • JWade

    Just another few steps in the Catholic march towards complete irrelevance. Maybe the kids should be expelled, so they can go to a school that teaches critical thought.

    Having gone to catholic schools my whole life, I was lucky enough to go to a large public university. Once I found out the “slippery slope” argument was a logical fallacy in my Intro to Logic class, everything quickly unraveled.

  • playonwords

    Submission to authority has always been a primary virtue for the Church

  • JWade

    My comment didn’t survive moderation either. Catholics aren’t fans of dissent.

  • At least Mrs. Rebecca Hamilton, has her priorities in order. After all the first loyalty a person should have is not to friends, or family, or loved ones, or to the community or to even a sense of justice, fairness or equality. It should be to the church. I mean just because a person these student care about, has had his life turned up side down and that their school community is a bit poor because of it, doesn’t give the students the right to question the man in the funny hat.

  • Also I am sure that the Pope, with his new found sense of equality and love for the LGBT community will step in at any time now to correct this bigoted situation. Or at least send out a decree to insure this will never happen again.

    waiting. Any second now.

    Crickets. tumble weeds. a lone wolf crying in the back ground….

  • Kira

    Another example of the moral bankruptcy of religion.

  • dagnykight

    I will be in my 70s when today’s Millennials are the dominant economic and political demographic. I’m very optimistic that we’ll see a more rational, accepting, caring America. It’s horrible to think that the “negative baggage” has to literally die off, but Lee, you’re right!

  • Brian Westley

    She’s been far right about everything; does that count?

  • Glasofruix

    Same here, but i told her that the oxygen she’s wasting could be of better use elsewhere.

  • Brian Westley

    The trick is to make a comment that angers her enough so she HAS to respond, so she’ll have to keep your comment up. Of course, she’ll probably ban you so you can’t respond to her response.

  • jen

    I know we’re not supposed to be all gloaty, but this really made me smile. If this is the next generation of Catholics, then bring it on!

  • RN from NY

    I agree. Once the Catholics throw out all the kids who support gays, then they can throw out all their other “abomination” students: those who eat pork and shellfish, those who disrespect their parents, those who masturbate, those who have premarital sex…
    Should make for very small class sizes!

  • MNb

    “Meanwhile, Hamilton ….. has a lot to learn.”
    I doubt if she wants to.

  • Carmelita Spats

    They really censor when you bring up the heinous sex abuse scandal and the fact that their cult is more concerned with the well-being of a stale cracker as their Imaginary Friend than the bodies of post-born children. Hit them with facts and they fold.

  • If these kids are the product of a failed catholic school, then I am glad that school is failing.

  • Rob P

    Do you really think this one incident at a small Catholic school would be on the Pope’s radar?

  • Matt Ranson

    I hope those kids do get kicked out. Then they will be better off in a real school.

  • Matt Bowyer

    Those students are better humans than Catholics.

  • onamission5

    a less entitled group of young people…
    …says one of the most entitled people on planet earth.

  • Artor

    I was looking at this case as an example of how Catholics are better than the Catholic Church. It’s disappointing, but entirely predictable, that another Catholic would rear it’s ugly head and show that some individual Catholics can be as bad, or worse than the Church itself. I wonder what Bill Donahue or Maggie Gallagher have to say about this? Wait… no, I don’t.

  • Artor

    It’s a bit of a surprise that a rabid Catholic blog allows comments in the first place. But if they’re heavily censored, I can see that.

  • Artor

    The Amish, with their commitment to consensus decision making, have a saying. “Some decisions have to wait for a few people to die before they can be made,” and this is an example of that. Our culture is largely a product of consensus. As long as there are regressive bigots around, they will spoil that consensus with their antediluvian attitudes. But the consensus is changing, and as the old guard dies off, new voices will become stronger and louder. Vive la différence!

  • Black Leaf

    There is some profound irony in a rich white Christian complaining about entitlement.

  • blort-bot

    I really don’t understand the mental gymnastics necessary to rationalize this situation. Unless I’m mistaken all sins are equal, yet this vice principal is fired for his sins while priests who rape children are not. Unless the church is going to fire every sinner in their employ, they are just using this man to make a public political statement, and that is disgusting. Maybe that’s what these students picked up on; the morality of the Catholic Church is inconsistent (often to favor their PR or bank accounts), and so they are learning to rely on their own faculties to determine a better, more just course of action.

  • SeekerLancer

    Freedom of religion is only for their religion and freedom of speech is only for speech that agrees with them.

  • Artor

    Yeah, I was a believer when I started Catholic school, and I’ve been an atheist since I left it in the 6th grade.

  • WallofSleep

    Well, we all know how those godless libruls can’t tolerate even the slightest bit of dissension from the Party Line.

    What… again? Fuck. These political stereotypes are getting really confusing for me.

  • breeezyboy

    Unfortunately, upon my comment she would call in the FBI since she’s a state representative.

  • WallofSleep

    That’s how you know these sorts of things aren’t really about doctrine.

  • Neko

    Bad Catholic is a feverish, or at least reactionary, Catholic blog that AFAIK doesn’t censor.

    Not simpleminded like Hamilton, though.

  • ………

  • jdm8

    Given the comments below that she’s deleting dissenting replies to that thread, it would have been hilariously hypocritical if she publicly supported Phil while doing deletions.

  • jdm8

    $19000/yr for that school. Maybe she should advocate checking into the parents because very few “Catholic families” can afford to put six children through that school, so as to make sure those parents aren’t flouting the RCC’s anti-contraceptive mandate.

  • What did you say?

  • Octoberfurst

    I wholeheartedly agree. The new generation is very pro-gay and when they take over homophbia will be a thing of the past. Oh sure you will still have anti-gay types around but they will be looked upon like the KKK is today. Things WILL get better. We just need the old backwoods fundamentalist types to die off.

  • It’s happened several times at several schools. Do I think that the firing of gay teachers from Catholic schools for getting married in general would be on the Pope’s radar, even if this specific incident is not?

    Yes. Yes I do.

  • $925105

    Expel over 300 students? When they see the huge loss of revenue for the school they may reconsider.

  • i am amused by how many of the haters have been using this framing lately. equality is “trendy,” like a fad that will eventually fade. that’s what they’re telling themselves, anyway.

    but they are wrong. dead wrong. these kids (in OK, even!) are proof of that.

  • basementmatt

    Paraphrasing myself:
    1. Someone so certain her views were the only correct ones shouldn’t be complaining about entitlement and narcissism.
    2. Narrowing down her “the world hates Christianity” stance, I said in the US you can’t use the government to enforce your religion.
    3. I said she didn’t have to use scare quotes when saying Zmuda is married. He Is married, and her sacraments and church dogma don’t define how the law sees it.

    I’ll agree that it wasn’t what she’d want to hear, especially #1, but I wasn’t wrong either. Nowhere did I threaten her or call her names. Don’t dish it if you can’t take it.

  • jimlouvier

    Historically, Catholics have met dissent with murder.

  • Alice

    Lower tuition? What planet does she live on? If they kicked out 300 students they would have to RAISE tuition.

  • snag

    The obvious answer is not to try and change the Catholic church, but to leave it.

  • snag

    The problem is, the Catholic church is not a democracy. If you do not agree with its tenets, then you have to find another religion, or abandon religion altogether.

  • snag

    You cannot be a Catholic and be separate from the Church. If you are not acting according to its rules, then you are an apostate and not a Catholic.

  • RedGreenInBlue

    I commented on Rebecca’s blog solely to express disapproval of Glasofruix’s rather – er – combative comment directed at her. i.e. I was offering support to Rebecca despite disagreeing with her on the issue at hand. I made no other comment.

    And even that has been deleted.

    Well, it seems nothing can be allowed to get in the way of her negative characterisation of atheists…

    [e2a: I think Disqus is playing with me. My comment appeared, then disappeared – and now it’s back! It seems I was wrong to assume it was Rebecca’s moderation that made it disappear.]

  • baal

    Which makes 98%+ of the catholic women apostate due to birth control. Hell of a way to run a club where nearly all the women are apostate.

  • snag

    I don’t disagree with you. My point is that most people who call themselves Catholic are not at all, since they don’t adhere to its tenets. They might as well leave the church, since they aren’t truly members.

  • CamasBlues

    Hm. Well if suddenly 98 to 99% of Catholics left the church that would certainly have an interesting impact on church finances. Almost all parishes would have to close & overnight the Catholic church would become one of the tiniest denominations in the US.

  • Neko

    No. The RCC is not just the hierarchy, but the whole people of God. A majority of American Catholics disagree with Church teaching on birth control (which arose out of brazen institutional self-interest); it does not mean they are no longer Catholic.

  • Dorothy

    she’s targeting you and this blog in the comments section, Hemant. Some comments have been removed and new comments are being moderated (i tried to comment and my comment was not posted but went to moderation)

  • Ryan1159

    As a former Catholic, I wish the Catholic Church would excommunicate me. I don’t want to be associated with them in any way.

  • Neko

    So I read another of your comments on Hamilton’s site and am disgusted. Prime example of an atheist giving a fundie a gun to shoot us with. Thanks a lot.

  • Cake

    I’m still not seeing the problem.

  • Whitney Currie

    This should have been expected by…well, everyone.

    Just like a large corporation exists to sell a product, the Catholic Church exists to push an agenda. This is not new, they’ve been doing it for centuries.

    Those kids? They should leave before they can be expelled. They have no reason to stay. Of course, getting a refund for the remained of the year might be tough.

    I do find it interesting that the Catholic Church seems to think it can afford to alienate the younger crowd, though.

  • Glasofruix

    You can’t say i’ve been impolite, can you now?

  • Glasofruix

    Oh, she published it?

  • Glasofruix

    Well, that’s one of these “freedom of speech” moments fundies just love.
    Apparently, you can write long hateful articles and as long as you
    strategically place some Jesus in them you’re rightful and just, but the fact that more reserved and factual comments (not mine obviously) pointing out why ms Hamilton’s verbal diarrhea is wrong were censored just proves she’s a giant turd.

    I have no tolerance left for those people, hence the “choke and die” comment.

  • ahermit

    Your comment on Hamilton’s page was a good example of shooting yourself in the foot you halfwit. You’re not helping the rest of us who actually give a shit about secular issues. Go play your infantile games somewhere else please.

  • UWIR

    It’s not so much as a “comment” thread as a “list of things readers have said that I agree with” thread.

  • Glasofruix

    Yeah, and now it’s used to show how “vile” atheists are when she just censors far better and more factual comments. The two faced piece of shit can’t stand criticism. And generally speaking

    http://img.izismile.com/img/img5/20121123/1000/friday_gifdump_65_16.gif

    Ummm, something went very wrong here…

  • John Gills

    The angriest discussion I ever heard in 30+ years of teaching high school English happened amongst a group of seniors who discovered that they were all former parochial school students.

    Up until then I thought the worst was when my life-long friend revealed that, as an elementary student, a nun stuck her tongue out at him and denounced him as a demon. Knowing Ray, I assume he merely asked an intelligent question.

  • Neko

    You know the nasty comment I mean (obviously not the one you cited above). I hope you’re not as repugnant offline.

  • Glasofruix

    I know, i know :p

    I can assure you that among many commenters around here i’m quite reasonnable (and less frequent commenters might not know me), but that old bat does not deserve any respect whatsoever.

  • Artor

    Well that’s good to know. That means that there are almost zero Catholics in the world. Somehow, the Church still claims 1.2 billion members, so I don’t think they’re being as stringent with their standards as you are.

  • Artor

    I’m amused by your insistence on the One True Xian™ fallacy, but I agree with your conclusion. I think it would be a great thing if all those non-practicing Catholics stopped supporting a church they do not agree with.

  • Artor

    If you’re watching the blog, take lots of screenshots. It would be amusing to have the dirt to display when she inevitably claims to be the honest one.

  • Glasofruix

    Every comment disagreeing with her is moderated. Except those that she can use to her advantage.

  • Artor

    Nobody ever accused Catholic apologists of being good at math.

  • Tommy Boyett

    Disappointing to hear this woman is a member of my state’s House of Reps.

  • RowanVT

    Heck, my ex-fiance said he was a catholic despite not believing in God! D:

    I tried to explain to him that it didn’t work that way, but he insisted that because he had been raised Catholic that he would forever be one.

  • Artor

    I am continually amazed to find Xian apologists who INSIST that the Church has never had a problem with pedophilia, whatever problem there might have been stopped 40 years ago, or that all accusations have been trumped-up to make the Church look bad. I’ve often wondered how they could possibly be so deluded, but if they only ever get their “news” from heavily moderated insular blogs and from their priest or pastor, that might explain their ignorance. Hit them with facts and if they don’t fold, they just deny.

  • Artor

    Ben Franklin complained about the anti-intellectual streak in America. It’s hardly a new thing.

  • Artor

    When did elected representatives stop caring and worrying about what they said…?

    I don’t think they’ve ever cared much, but the Internet Age has made their words directly available to all their constituents into perpetuity. The political machine is slow to adapt, so they think they can still deny their own record and disappear things down the memory hole. It’s funny to watch sometimes.

  • Glasofruix

    Even without censorship the comments section just looks like a giant ass kissing orgy, no matter what crazy crap the author is spewing, it’s always “wonderful” and “so true”.

  • Ed Adams

    doesn’t she fit right in with all the other anti-gay bigots in your state and in your state government? i had the misfortune of having to live in tulsa for 3 years. pitiful. and i was told that’s the progressive part of the state.

  • Feral Dog

    Yep, it’s one of the more insidious things they teach you, and it’s hard to get out of that mindset. Saying ‘I’m not Catholic’ out loud still feels like a deliberate lie, even though I’ve been out for the better part of eight years.

  • Glasofruix

    Am i seeing things or the picture she uses for her blog is a severe case of martyrbation?

  • UWIR

    There’s also the question of why moral questions should be settled by “loyalty” rather than, you know, morality.

  • MarkTemporis

    No, really you don’t. Most Catholic women use birth control without facing any censure. A Catholic friend once explained it as ‘leaving your religion in church’.

  • Anna

    This is par for the course for the Catholic church. They don’t really care how many lay people break the rules, as long as they donate money and offer their children up for indoctrination. There are tons of divorced and remarried people whose children attend Catholic schools. Tons of couples who use birth control. Tons of couples who have children conceived through IVF or alternative insemination. There are simply tons of people who do things against the rules and don’t feel bad about breaking the rules, either.

    The vast, vast majority of people whose children attend Catholic schools (at least in my area) are not fundamentalist Catholics. Not even close. Yet you won’t see any investigation into those people’s private lives. They won’t refuse admission to their children. The only time when the Catholic church likes to be hardcore is when it comes to gay people. No matter how many straight “sinners” there are, gays are always treated worse.

  • Anna

    It would appear that it has succeeded so well that their first loyalty is not to the Church, but to the trendy morality of the larger culture.

    As opposed to the “unchanging” morality of the Catholic church, which is better just because she says it is, LOL.

  • MarkTemporis

    I don’t see how. If she’s going to play the part of injured martyr no matter what anyone says, someone might as well give her something worth complaining about.

  • Anna

    I had a fundamentalist Catholic tell me that all sexual “sins” aren’t equal. So maybe that’s it.

  • Anna

    And they consider him one, too. It’s like the mafia. They never consider people to have left. Even if you manage to get yourself excommunicated, you’re still a Catholic in the eyes of the church.

  • MarkTemporis

    It’s a huge hassle to get yourself excommunicated. Aforementioned Catholic friend has tried; first he told his priest outright he was living in sin with his GF, guy told him that was all good and he should come back to church. He finally wrote the Vatican a personal letter requesting excommunication because of his disgust with the Church’s handling of the scandals in Ireland and never heard back either.

  • Anna

    I think many fundamentalist Catholics are in denial of what it would mean if their “apostates” actually left. They say they want it to happen, but would they really want to belong to a church that shrinks into irrelevancy overnight?

  • Neko

    That excuse is in neither your nor Friendly Atheist’s favor.

  • smrnda

    Wow. I’m guessing that in the past when they had strength, they were probably much more eager to excommunicate. With dwindling numbers, I don’t think they can bother now without making their stats on membership look worse and worse.

  • Neko

    Ha. On that we agree.

  • smrnda

    Somehow the trend towards pushing for equality is at least a few hundred years old, and as a trend it’s definitely gotten us some good results. It’s authoritarianism that’s some old fad that just can’t make itself seem appealing these days.

  • Stev84

    You have to work in some capacity for the Catholic Church and really screw up. Like a theologian who criticizes the church or teaches heterodox beliefs. And even then they will probably just have their teaching job or license revoked (depending on how their country handles these things).

  • smrnda

    So, this means that the Catholic church has about what, a few hundred or thousand members at most? I’d imagine a lot of their clergy really don’t believe this stuff, and you’d probably get a few people complaining that the Pope isn’t Catholic enough.

    Wow, I guess you agree that the church is wrong to claim nearly a billion members ten?

  • smrnda

    It’s the same trick pulled by fundamentalists of any religion. For the sake of looking big an important, they count everybody who says they’re a member, then they denounce them as *not really members* for not following the party line as soon as convenient.

  • Stev84

    The really absurd thing is that in several of these cases the schools knew that the teachers were gay. But often they only make a fuss when they get married. That alone should make such firings illegal. If they want to uphold rules, they need to consistent about them.

  • smrnda

    So if an ordinary Catholic fesses up to desecrating the host, worshiping the devil and celebrating black mass, they’re still too insignificant to excommunicate? Wow, that’s interesting.

  • Glasofruix

    I have no obligation to respect or tolerate people like her, in fact, nothing commands me to, no law forbids it and i am free to express my opinions no matter how impopular they might be among the christian crowd. Does it make me a jerk? Most certainly. That does not change the fact that the world would be better off without people like her. (And a little disclaimer, i am not encouraging any violence toward her)

  • Jurjen S.

    As a resident of Washington state who voted for Referendum 74, I would like to extend my particular thanks for making your point #3. If I wanted some Oklahoma legislator telling me what the law is, I’d go live in Oklahoma.

  • smrnda

    Well, she may be thinking they can lower tuition and drastically increase enrollment beyond its current numbers to make up the difference, but the whole *bonus* private schools get over public ones is usually their cost keeps things like class size down.

  • smrnda

    Is this because of the whole infant baptism and formal confirmation thing? It’s like if you did the ritual, you count no matter your current beliefs or behavior?

  • Glasofruix

    He should have sent a cracker nailed to a plank.

  • Neko

    You called her a shit stain and wished out loud that she would choke to death. So what if you don’t respect her? So what if there’s no law against it? That remark was hateful.

    I hope you’re not one of these whiners who get all outraged when the Christians hurt your feelies. You don’t have a molecule to stand on.

  • Glasofruix

    So what? People call me names and wish upon my death every day (on the internet at least), they call it christian love or something. That’s part of being an atheist, i just turned the tables for once and it seems that it moved much more dirt than the other way around. The only difference, is that i’m not stupid enough to expect my wishes to come true.

  • Lark62

    Rebecca Hamilton has deleted most, but not all, of the posts by atheists to her site. For example, she did not delete this post (which she might have posted herself?):

    “Dear Rebecca Hamilton, you are a feces stain, please choke and decease without delay so the world would become a better place. ”

    Rebecca replied:

    “hamiltonr Mod
    Don’t you just love atheists and their intellectual approach to things? These comments alone prove that “reason” is their metier. ”

    For the record, here is my comment, awaiting moderation. I’m reposting here as I do not expect to see it on Ms. Hamilton’s site:

    “I commented earlier to this site, politely, and my post was deleted. Based on comments on another site, the comments of many atheists have been removed here.

    The above comment was unacceptable by any standard. However, if you (1) choose to delete many polite posts from atheists, and (2) leave only the one crude comment and then (3) say “See ALL atheists are hateful” you might want to double check your book where it talks about bearing false witness (aka lying).”

  • Buckley

    I guess she hasn’t been in a Catholic School in a long time (at least out of OK) because they are bastions of liberal teaching and thought. Most of the kids are CINO and college puts the final nail on the coffin.

  • Neko

    No rationalization will make it better. It’s a race to the bottom that sucks.

    I’m an atheist, too, you know, and I have never been insulted by a Christian like that. The worst was when kick implied I was a swine. (I forgive you seventy times seven, kick!)

  • Buckley

    They couldn’t replace the students fast enough and would take years to get to the level they currently are. People aren’t going to come from multiple miles around to go there. They school will die, so I doubt that will happen. I agree with you, money is far more important to the Archdiocese.

  • Glasofruix

    I DID write a comment full of reason and arguments using less picturesque language describing the points where her reasonning was weak (everywhere basically) before that one and not seeing it (twice) i tried a more direct approach.

  • Buckley

    I agree, but I have stated before on this forum, Xians will only get more aggressive (and thus dangerous) before they settle into the background. They will not give up with out a serious fight, and I am afraid that tehy will only get worse before they and all other religious fundies (Islam in US too) fades to the background.

  • Lark62

    Yep, it’s gone.

  • Neko

    I get that, actually. In a way you can never shake it. And I left a long time ago.

    Childhood determines so much.

  • Lark62

    Congrats!

    You discovered the secret to not having your comment deleted by this fair and honest christian, who honors both the spirit and the letter of god’s holy word. What do you want to bet she advocated for the placement of the 9 commandments on govt property?

  • John the Drunkard

    Yes. The more the Catholic church shows its true face, the fewer decent people will continue to look the other way. The students have shown themselves to be more morally responsible than the school or the church.

  • FriendlySkeptic

    Interesting: Rebecca explicitly states in the comments section that she knows she has been targeted by an atheist blog on Patheos (she doesn’t name Friendly Atheist, but c’mon). Further, she states she will delete comments from anyone who appears to be making comments on her blog because they read about it on the atheist blog. Case in point: I made the following polite yet direct post and it was deleted almost immediately:

    “Rebecca Hamilton, why use quotes on the word ‘married’? You are aware that same-sex marriage is just as legal as opposite-sex marriage, right? So why the quotes?”

  • TCC

    As a millennial, I hope you’re right, but part of me wonders if some of the trend that we see with cohorts is also due to the effects of age on liberalness and that the millennials will end up not quite as tolerant and rational as we hope. (I’d love to be proven wrong.)

  • I don’t think Glasofruix is claiming that the reason makes it better. Only that it explains why it occurred. And morality entirely aside, often it is unreasonable to expect the dog that has been kicked to not bite back. Turning the other cheek is an ethic that has psychological limits, whatever its merits as a moral theory.
    ———————————————–

    But it isn’t all that implausible even in the context of ethics.

    Ironically, the teleological suspension of the ethical has its origins as a concept in Christianity itself. Perceptive Christians realized that many of the purported acts of God as well as many-upon-many of the actual acts of the religious cannot be justified by resorting to ethical categories. It is always wrong to ask someone to kill their own child, even if you know you weren’t really serious the whole time, and it is always wrong to denigrate and degrade a person on account of traits they did not pick, not to mention it is always wrong to kill and steal and lie in the name of peace and liberty and truth.

    But sometimes doing right can’t possibly do the job. You perhaps can’t test someone’s faith for realsies, as God purportedly did with Abraham, without jerking them around quite a bit. You perhaps can’t confront the deepest racism of your followers effectively without subverting the categories they rely upon by using them in an unexpected (but still necessarily racist) way. And sometimes some folk just need killing, sometimes a lie will prevent a greater evil that would follow from the truth, sometimes ameliorating the effects that follow from wealth and poverty should come before the crude unthinking sanctification of stuff.

    And they say religious people (and Gods) aren’t consequentialists. Pshaw. I think it’s an extremely thin reed to rest any moral argument, but it’s not one I dismiss out of hand. Sometimes people are just out to viciously hurt others they don’t like, and they happen to have power or authority or influence, and slavishly obeying the social niceties when confronted with their moral ugliness in an effort to rise above their example only gives them more space and more license to be effective in their cruelty. When playing the social game, such people invariably cheat; they aren’t playing by civilized rules. If a person enjoys slapping cheeks, turning the other one is not likely to produce a helpful result.

    So i wouldn’t say that lashing out is justified on any moral level except in extreme situations, but I definitely understand it to the point that sometimes I don’t think it right to call it out as bad.

  • islandbrewer

    I think it’s a great policy that the RCC should pursue more vigorously. Kick out all the Catholics who exhibit the slightest disagreement with the dogma. They can self-purge from the US and Europe within a decade.

  • Phalacrocoracidae™

    Oh! Why don’t you tell Glasofruix how to talk or tweet or go to the bathroom, too, while you’re at it.
    -r
    -=-

  • Phalacrocoracidae™

    So your answer is ALSO censorship and alienation? Good one. Well played.
    -r
    -=-

  • Phalacrocoracidae™

    “I hope you’re not one of those atheists who get all butthurt when another atheist speaks his or her mind.”
    Samesies.
    -r
    -=-

  • Phalacrocoracidae™

    As an online asshole, I salute you.
    -r
    -=-

  • dagnykight

    Good point, TCC, but my optimism is based in part on the fact that Gen Xers are reportedly retaining their values as they age. But I see the real key trait to be that Millennials are generally not threatened by diversity. I think they can carry that basic worldview throughout their lives.

  • Jeff

    I agree Catholics schools produce a lot of non-Catholics. However, when leaving 2nd grade Catholic school and enrolling in public school, they wanted to put me in 5th grade because we were so far ahead of the public school students. I wouldn’t trade the non-religious parts of that education for anything (even a surprisingly good physical science education), but I do NOT miss one single breath of the religious education.

  • ShhhImReading

    Martyrbation is the name of my new black metal band.

  • Derrik Pates

    But you see, freedom of religion is only for religions that are true. Her religion, conveniently, happens to be the one that’s true. What luck, huh?

  • Derrik Pates

    Hey, another thing that Catholic schools can dislocate their own arms patting themselves on the back for!

  • ShhhImReading

    Frankly, those kids give me great hope. Good for them.

  • skeptical_inquirer

    I wish they could take the good parts of the schools but cut out the bad parts. But then I can’t help but think that the kids who go to Catholic schools come from families where education is super important, and wealthier than average or at least willing to go through hoops to fund the education.

    So there is a bit of self-selection going on.

  • skeptical_inquirer

    It might make them feel extra special.

  • T’omm J’Onzz

    Hamilton should be recalled, censured at least, for advocating against students’ First Amendment rights.

    then again, it is a private school, so if they choose to expel them, they likely have that right, but as a state official, Hamilton has no business involved, and had shown herself to be a Catholic above being an American. #notJFK

  • T’omm J’Onzz

    you think hypocrisy bothers her, if she were even aware of it? if she’s deleting dissenting opinions which do not violate TOS – and i would have no surprise if she is, particularly given her position on the school matter – she should be expelled from Patheos & Disqus, and further demonstrates her unfitness for office.

  • T’omm J’Onzz

    can you bring it up with admins?

  • Lilly Munster

    Catholic. Oklahoma. Republican. Politician. How many more ways can you describe a Fascist?

  • Lilly Munster

    Sarcasm, right? Very few American Adults have that level of Ignorance and Bigotry anymore. If you’re serious, your mind is still in the 18th Century.

  • T’omm J’Onzz

    maybe Pope Francis could weigh in. i suspect he would support the dismissal, but not expulsion.

    [addendum after 15 mins] http://diversitychronicle.wordpress.com/2013/12/05/pope-francis-condemns-racism-and-declares-that-all-religions-are-true-at-historic-third-vatican-council/

  • Exactly. In fact, the kids of parents who value education highly generally do well even at the worst public schools.

  • Not a clue what you’re talking about.

  • T’omm J’Onzz
  • Neko

    3lemenope, thank you for the thoughtful post. We’re not going to agree on this, but I appreciate your, let’s just call it, your talent.

    I get the rage. I’ve been raging against the religious right as long as I can remember. What difference did it make? Negligible.

    Rebecca Hamilton isn’t the sharpest tool in the shed, and her sentiments are contemptible. But anyone who knows the way she operates would just ignore her silly blog and certainly not hand her any ammo. I’m singing my same old tune. I dislike the venom, not just personally, but because I think it’s bad tactics. It does us no good.

  • Miss_Beara

    How exactly are these teens “entitled” when they show support for an ousted vice principal?

    That word…

  • Her draconian “moderation” policies seem atypical for Catholics. My impression is she’s an outlier, even among those on Patheos.

  • If you can’t see how what you’ve said can be considered impolite, then I suspect that the oxygen you’re wasting could be of better use elsewhere.

  • Oklahoma Democrats tend more conservative than Wisconsin Republicans. Or at least did a bit over a decade back….

  • You might find Jonathan Haidt’s research to make interesting reading that can illuminate that perspective. (Oversimplified answer: because that’s how conservatives’ brains work.)

  • JohnnieCanuck

    $19,000 X 300 = $5,700,000

  • bpn

    As a matter of fact, Jesus never uttered a thing about homosexuality.

  • In her comments section, all commenting posts (even favorable) are moderated before appearing. Her posting guidelines are clear that rude comments will be deleted, which I consider fair warning for why many comments might be removed. However, beyond that she’s long seemed heavy-handed and capricious about moderating dissenting views even when expressed politely enough to have come from Ms. Manners.

    I’ve been able to have some extended discussions in the past. It may be that regular visitors such as myself can build up a reputation as “civil opposition”; there’s at least one other regular who seems to fit that mold. However, given the influx of rude dissent on this, her tolerance for dissent in general is likely lower than usual at present; and given her tendency to capricious-seeming deletion, the trouble of composing a thoughtful in-depth comment seems too frequently under-rewarded to encourage much substantial engagement.

    Nohow, I don’t think the Disqus moderation system allows her to do anything about passersby massively downvoting those supporting comments which she allows through.

  • Brian K

    She suggested that i go tell all of you not to verbally abuse her. I told her many on this blog have already expressed exactly that sentiment. She wouldn’t post my reply. Wouldn’t want to draw attention to all those decent people who destroy her bigoted stereotype.

  • Darrell Ross

    Public schools tend to reflect the desires and needs of parents who’s kids attend them. In small areas, a small group of concerned parents can have a huge impact on the school.

    Plenty of private schools provide terrible educations as well.

  • Darrell Ross

    Or you can just make your support for gay marriage super vocal right?

  • 92JazzQueen .

    Or not telling the full story because I did see some comments and they were really revolting.

  • 92JazzQueen .

    Or conform to what the world says. Frankly, the world can be two faced when it comes to a lot of matters.

  • 92JazzQueen .

    Pot calling the kettle black.

  • 92JazzQueen .

    If people have actually been paying attention the Catholic Church has been clamping down but they continuing to spout that cliché out. Just shove it because its not new anymore but trite and worn out.

  • I totally get where you’re coming from. (And thank you for the kind words, BTW. 🙂 I was until fairly recently a politeness-at-all-costs person. One of the things that had me reexamine that position was that a person I respected, a former pastor, had told me that the only thing that had jarred him from his position was people being rude towards his arguments. He could argue intellectually day-in-and-day-out and because he was very clever could always squeeze his faith through the cracks of the defects of the best counterarguments.

    People being angry at him was what jerked him out of the notion that it was all basically an intellectual game, that most pointedly people are actually hurt by the beliefs he was pushing and defending; he could no longer pretend that the positions and the contortions and the rhetoric were without cost. The anger makes it real to its target as much as its wielder. I doubt, on some level, that Ms. Hamilton would be so thorough in deleting all angry criticism if on some level she did not find it threatening to how she wants to feel about what she does and what she stands for; if all she wanted was ammo she’d keep them all and never shut up about them.

    Personal venom still makes me extremely uncomfortable. The only thing that blunts that deep sentiment is when the target is a person who, like Rebecca Hamilton, wields actual power over the lives of strangers. It’s one thing for a person to go about their lives blinkered and ignorant, a wrecking ball only to those in their lives and their immediate contacts, and for whom errors in judgment and failures of empathy are a regrettable but necessary right. But officers of government are another thing again. I find myself far less understanding of similar lapses in those who wield the awesome power of the state to amplify their errors. At that point, it ceases to become about sentiment and starts being a matter of practical necessity; these are people who, if they manage to bend enough ears or persuade enough colleagues, actually can do harm on a vast scale. They should not be insulated from the raw pain that their notions visit upon their victims; it allows them to perpetuate the delusion that Brandeis pointed out about the zealous, that the scariest are those who go to extremity because they well-meaning and are convinced they are doing good. It’s important not to feed their delusion.

    It’s always important for there to be folks like you to remind everyone of what we ought to strive for insofar as the the debate is concerned. It’s easy to get caught up in the argument and get carried away, and it’s helpful for someone to point out when it perhaps has gone too far. But I think it is easy, especially for people like us who vastly prefer comity over crudeness, to undersell how important it can be for expressions like Glasofruix’s to demonstrate the visceral hurt that all the intellectual defenses of the fundies cover for, even while it makes us wince and strongly desire to not be judged by association.

  • Castilliano

    Atypical for laypeople who are Catholic, including many in my family BTW.
    Quite typical for Catholic leaders to silence dissent.

  • Supposedly, the pope has this omniscient friend who can clue him into these injustices. So, if he really is the victor of Christ, then everything should be on his radar.

  • Tom Payne

    An ideolgues greatest fear…people rejecting bigotry. Good for them.

  • 92JazzQueen .

    Sure, that’s what they all say. But whenever I hear the word bigotry its usually a generalized term that has lost its meaning.

  • Pofarmer

    Most ofmthe Catholic blogs on Patheos censor. They are the worst.

  • Pofarmer

    He absolutely will censor, or at least usef to.

  • Nomad

    I gave her a few more comments to delete. But the thing that stuck out to me was the way she referred to the protest as “dozens of students”. Yes, I said in my first comment, I suppose you could call 300 a certain number of dozens, but it would seem that hundreds would have been a more appropriate term unless you were trying to minimize the scale of the protest.

    Anyway, I find it funny that she just redefined me from largely being a hipster into a devotee of popular culture. Yep, caring about your fellow human and being concerned about fairness and justice is trendy. Good thing she doesn’t follow a religion founded on the words of a man who cared about social justice and concern for other the less fortunate.

  • Nomad

    The fully story is that she only allowed the minority of comments through which were revolting, while deleting most of the others. She’s lying, in other words, only allowing through comments that agree with her or ones which feeds her martyr complex. I pointed out that I felt it was disingenuous for her to call a protest of 300 students a protest by “dozens”. That will be deleted, it will never see the light of day because I made a valid argument against her post. But she allowed the one calling for her to be choked. Because it fed her martyr complex.

  • Nomad

    Would you consider it two faced to protect pedophile priests who break the law and directly harm people and then fire a law abiding man for marrying the man he loves, and act which harmed no one?

  • 92JazzQueen .

    Or he signed the contract and he knowingly violated it. How about the fact that the Church actually has been taking these issues concerning the pedophilia cases more seriously.

  • 92JazzQueen .

    I saw her comments and actually you really are not telling the truth.

  • Nomad

    In what way am I not telling the truth? Perhaps you could supply some kind of detail when you accuse me of lying?

  • Nomad

    Answer my question please. Do you consider it two faced to be covering up pedophiles (they have done it and continue to do it, new stories come out all the time, saying they are taking it seriously does not make it so) and prosecuting law abiding married people?

  • Nomad

    Incidentally she has completely deleted the two comments I made, including the one I made in response to her claim that she had never personally attacked anyone. I pointed out that she personally attacked each one of the students who participated in the protest by calling them “entitled” as a proxy insult because she had no real criticism to make of them.

    I also pointed out that she seemed to be saying that anyone who showed concern for another human being is showing some sort of extravagant privilege, implying that only the elites show concern for other people. Rather than choose to respond to that, that too is gone.

    She’s a garden variety religious coward. Her ideas cannot withstand criticism so she silences anything that shows the deficiencies in her thinking and selectively allows comments that support her.

  • UWIR

    I actually have read Haidt, and “that’s how conservatives’ brains work” doesn’t really answer the question of why they work that way, and what justification they have for putting loyalty above morality. Haidt claims that conservatives weigh loyalty, caring, justice, etc., roughly equally, but here Hamilton is completely disregarding caring, fairness, and liberty and considering only loyalty (and implicitly, sanctity and authority). This contradicts Haidt’s insistence that liberal’s perception of conservatives not caring about care, fairness, or liberty is a stereotype and misunderstanding of conservative thinking. The only time that Hamilton brings out caring, fairness, or liberty is when she can present Orwellian arguments for why liberals are uncaring, bigoted authoritarians for opposing discrimination (Courthouses are oppressing Christians by not giving them special privileges like having “In God We Trust” plaques! School are oppressing Christians by not giving students that want to pray special rights! Universities not giving money to Christian groups that discriminate is like the Holocaust!) . She clearly uses is appealing to these dimensions as rhetorical tools, not things she really believes in.

    Hamilton puts abstract theological arguments ahead of actual human beings suffering actual harm. Not only that, but she treats anyone who suffers pangs of conscience at seeing someone deprived of his livelihood simply because he married someone without his employer’s permission (!) as being morally degenerate.

  • quasibaka

    I blame Google and Bing’s FILTER BUBBLE . If they used DuckDuckGo , they would be horrified and disgusted enough to …….

    leave the internet and never return:)

  • Gehennah

    Wow, well I’ve said it again and I’ll say it again, the Catholic Church is doing an amazing job at killing itself.

  • Artor

    LOL- it’s been 30+ for me. I have no trouble at all saying I am not Catholic. I never got the baptism though. I don’t think that would have made a difference.

  • Intelligent Donkey

    Excommunicated Catholics – unless they cease for some other reason to belong to the Church – are still Catholics and remain bound by obligations such as attending Mass, even though they are barred from receiving the Eucharist and from taking an active part in the liturgy (reading, bringing the offerings, etc.).

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excommunication

  • Lark62

    Wait, don’t you remember when jebus used a bullwhip to drive those revolting, immoral pervs out of his father’s house?

    Me neither. Jebus had no use for greedy swindlers who used the house of god to cheat travelers and the poor. Yet I have never heard a single so-called follower of jebus say one word opposing modern day swindlers for gob. Back when I attended church, they would just say all was well if the swindlers were spreading gods word.

  • Lark62

    How many polite comments disagreeing with Ms. Hamilton did you see? Few or none, because Ms. Hamilton DELETED them herself. Then she deleted posts calling her out for keeping one or two nasties so she could use them to play the martyr.

  • Lark62

    What did you think of my three posts?

    Do let me know, because last I checked, all had been deleted. Then she says, “see this proves I’m right, because there are no thoughtful comments disagreeing with me.” Yep, that’s lying.

  • Lark62

    This has happened in other cases. As long as people say pretty words agreeing with doctrine and pretend to go along, everything is fine. It’s like the emperors new clothes. The biggest sin is saying the truth out loud.

  • Lark62

    Ben Franklin is quoted as saying that rebellion is always legal in the first person – my rebellion – but illegal in the third person – their rebellion.

    Sins work the same way. My sins are no big deal. Your sins, on the other hand…

  • Lark62

    Then explain why so many catholic families in developed countries have only one or two kids rather than 8 or 10. Every one of those couples became magically infertile after the second kid? Not one could possibly be defying church teaching.

  • Glasofruix

    Hey, that actually works.

  • Glasofruix

    Oh, she also uses scare quotes around “women’s health” when she writes lies about planned parenthood. I’ve read some of her articles and she does this often when her definition of a word is different from the real world’s.

  • Glasofruix

    Where i live, morality clauses are illegal, so is the termination of an employee on the basis of his sexual orientation, religion or political views. But, then, i don’t live in a third world country as you do, we take people’s rights seriously.

  • RedGreenInBlue

    Oh, I absolutely sympathise with your sense of frustration. I just felt a bit uncomfortable with the way you expressed it, and thought it was important to show her that she is wrong to suggest that we atheists just pile on to poor old persecuted Catholics. But then, I suspect she knows that already!

  • Oranje

    You mean Scott Walker and his idiotic band were imported? *shakes angry fist*

  • Dave The Sandman

    Your opposite number at the other blog, The Cowardly Bigot, seems to moderate the comments. I dont think mine will make the grade.

    Still, at least she is consistent in her disregard for American Free Speech(tm)

  • Oranje

    Heh. I’m picturing a room full of popes at an air traffic control center.

  • Oranje

    Oh good. My mother kept trying to say I was Catholic and just not practicing. Like it was the mob or something. Good to know I’m free and clear.

  • Oranje

    How did you know I use my other hand?

    /sorry, sorry; I’ll show myself the door.

  • Oranje

    Yup. That list of saints is never-changing, too.

  • Oranje

    Two-faced? The world is a gossipy high school hallway?

  • Oranje

    Did… did you really just make an argument that a word has too many connotative meanings? Really? That’s your counter to that?

  • Neko

    That was an impressive argument! I’m tempted to concede, because you gave me insight and to demonstrate that I wish Glasofruix well. Also, I’m a bit of a hypocrite, having been a hotheaded combatant in the past (much to my regret). But I just can’t go there.

    It’s holiday crunch time, so I’ve got to get off this blog. Happy Festivus all you godless, and to Christians, Merry Christmas!

  • That may have made a difference, but I’m simply referring to when the particular study I have in mind was done.

  • It’s not that she’s completely disregarding caring, fairness, and liberty, but rather that she considers them outweighed by ingroup loyalty, authority, sanctity, and purity.

    As to the underpinnings to why conservative’s brains work that way, my impression is that at the next proximate level it’s because of differences in amygdala function, and at the ultimate level because of the evolutionary advantage of a greedy optimization to deal with high resource costs of social cognition systems. (Robots governed by evolutionary algorithms seem to have developed analogs of all six, suggesting they may correspond to relatively simple strategy types.) At the super-organism cultural level, the optimum is probably some mix between the two extremes.

  • smrnda

    Just to add, I’ve read Haidt’s work and I think he presents an interesting model of how people think, but he doesn’t do a very good job (to me) of explaining why ‘obey authority’ or ‘group loyalty’ or ‘purity’ *should* be moral values. I mean, maybe that’s not within the scope of his work in terms of describing how people think, but he seems to have expressed views that these moral dimensions *should* be accepted as valid.

  • Norman Dostal

    come on-dont be an idiot-the RCCC would never do that. You do know that over 95% of catholics use birth control right? against the church’s teachings-NO ONE follows all of those silly rules-so will it be with gays-over 75% of cathoilics accept gays-

  • Norman Dostal

    come on-thats a stupid lie

  • Norman Dostal

    because youre ignorant as she said-duuuuh

  • Norman Dostal

    because biblical morality, like teh god you worship, is subjective

  • allein

    My former roommate teaches at a Catholic school and plenty of the kids aren’t Catholic at all. Their parents pay the tuition, they go to school. Also, I know one of her fellow teachers is Methodist; they just don’t let her teach the religion classes.

  • ahermit

    Not if it looks like its confirming her portrait of atheists as vulgar abusive angry assholes. Aren’t we supposed to be the rational ones?

  • ahermit

    No my answer is let’s be better than the people we are criticizing. Think you can manage that?

  • UWIR

    In the article in question, she is not displaying any regard for caring, fairness, or liberty. She’s not arguing that loyalty outweighs caring, she’s saying that loyalty is the only concern. The students are clearly making a caring argument, and she’s not addressing it at all. It would be like writing an article on Rosa Parks, and framing her actions solely in terms of disobeying authority figures, and not acknowledging the justice issue at all. When she does mention caring in other posts, it’s always how the oppressors’ poor widdle feelings are hurt when someone tells them they’re not allowed to oppress others. All of her “caring” arguments are transparent pretexts to defend Christian privilege.

  • Lark62

    Lucky guess? 🙂

  • The Starship Maxima

    I don’t know about expulsion, but yes, it is time this students learn the same lesson the fundies had to learn the hard way.
    Sometimes, your righteous indignation doesn’t change that certain places do things in a certain way and you can’t cry “persecution” or “bigotry” whenever you want.
    Correction, you can cry, but it’s not always that someone will be impressed and capitulate.

  • wesvvv

    As if Vatican II doesn’t exemplify Trendy Morality.

  • wesvvv

    The Catholic Church has lasted this long because its number one priority is survival of the Catholic Church. As fun as it would be, I don’t think they are going anywhere. Just look at this blogger, she celebrates the idea that she’s handed her right to think for herself away to a bunch of supposedly celibate men in robes.

  • John Francis

    Way to love thy neighbour as thyself. Jesus would be so proud of you! This is how to show them we are Christians by our love! Jesus did say after all that he, and he alone, is the way to God, but lets just side step what he said and go right to same tribe that gave us Caiaphas

  • Rob Bos

    I’ve waited about 20 hours for my comments to get approved. I don’t think I was rude. Hopefully she’s just busy, and the more recent comments that have been posted since are simply by pre-approved posters or something.

  • UWIR

    Just because speaking up won’t change things, doesn’t mean one shouldn’t speak up.

  • Nomad

    My how the tables have turned. It was only days ago that you were all up in arms with indignation over the idea that an ignorant bearded guy who said some hateful things might have to deal with the consequences of his statements.

    Now you want hundreds of students to suffer some kind of penalty for speaking out in support of someone who they understood was being treated unfairly.

    You seem to have a terribly perverted sense of justice and fairness. I used to believe that you were just naively ideological. Now I’m not so sure, you seem to be acting out of a desire to protect terrible people and punish the good.

  • Stephen Houldsworth

    We can only hope that Eastside Catholic High School takes her advice. If Catholic schools expel all the students who disagree with the church’s teachings on homosexuality, very soon there will be no Catholic schools.

  • Ryan1159

    Well I play by my own rules not theirs. If I say I’m not a Catholic, I’m not a Catholic!

  • Robster

    They won’t expel them, they need more bottoms on their uncomfortable pews, they need more people munching jesus flavoured crackers with a jesus blood chaser on Sundays, they need money more than anything else so these kids, at least some of them, goaded by their parents just may perhaps continue in the catholic church and enjoy the fellowship of dogmatic bigotry and finely tuned hate so loved by this version of Christian nonsense and all the others. Without the kids, lots of unhappy very friendly clergy and no real future. We should be hoping the school acts on the blogger’s suggestion, it would be the best for the students.

  • lara

    Wow. I wanted to see for myself how heavy handed the moderation on her blog was. I admitted having been linked but stated that I did not (yet) self identify as an atheist and that I am, in fact, married to a Catholic (which is a whole different can of worms but was my attempt to prove that I was not attempting to be overly antogonistic.) While conceeding that the school was liekly legally within their rights regarding the firing, I questioned whether or not it was fair to assume anything regarding the students as I was aware of a similar situation in a church we attended where a worship leader was openly gay. If the church wishes to enforce these morality codes, ought they not do it immeadietly upon becoming aware of a situation rather than waiting until something like this? Otherwise, it is sending a mixed signal. I am bordering on babbling here but truly I only wished to question that the situation might be more nuanced than she suggested. And I was deleted within 5 minutes. What a poor representative to Catholicism she is. And quite horrifying that she is a state representative as well. I know I shouldn’t be shocked. But I am.
    Oh, and hi. I read all the time, but first time commenting.

  • Jim Jones

    Whoooosh! (It was a Poe).

  • The Starship Maxima

    If these students wanted to voice their extreme displeasure with what happened, I’d commend them. For them to stop attending school altogether……no.

    You brought up the Duck Dynasty guy. Let’s say a gay person appeared on the show (which another gay commenter said has happened, without incident). Let’s say, Robertson, in a fit of homophobic pique stormed off the show because they dared have a gay person on.

    I’d say “Fire his ass and say good riddance.”

  • The Starship Maxima

    No argument there.

  • katiehippie

    I just had a thought. (yeah, I know) Churches are generally set up so that one main person (pastor, priest) tells you what the bible means, and how to interpret it and so on. So when a lay person is repeating the beliefs and those are challenged, the person really doesn’t know how to react. You aren’t encouraged at church to refute, or talk back, or question, or challenge beliefs. (my experience is with the Lutheran church) Even the idea that someone would argue with them is totally foreign so it must be some kind of attack. That person is just a mean person, that’s why they are attacking.
    Rebecca actually reminds me a lot of my ex who was raised catholic and went to catholic schools. He was always very quick to tell me I was being mean and that any argument against him was just an attack. I’m wondering if that came from being catholic.
    I realize not all churches are the same, but it could be true for many churches.

  • FieryLocks

    I bet Rebecca has no problem with Catholic priests raping children and the Church then sweeping it under the rug…is that part of your Church’s teachings Rebecca?

  • Nomad

    I’ll say again. It wasn’t that many days ago that you couldn’t show enough enthusiasm for protecting a vile man from facing the consequences of his actions. Now you are eager to see children who did a good thing face negative consequences.

    You’re not acting on some kind of naive idealism, you’re looking to protect hateful people and see ones that display behavior that you claim to admire face punishment.

    And let’s not get into any more of your analogies right now. You’ve used too many inappropriate ones and when called on them tried to act like it wasn’t fair to point that out.