Despite Jesus, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and a Festivus Pole in Capitol, Florida Officials Say No to Satanists December 19, 2013

Despite Jesus, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and a Festivus Pole in Capitol, Florida Officials Say No to Satanists

This is unbelievable. The Florida State Capitol Building is currently home to a Nativity scene, Festivus Pole, three signs from atheist groups, and an homage to the Flying Spaghetti Monster:

(Ben Wolf – Department of Management Services)

So you would think the everyone-is-welcome mentality would be welcoming of a display from the Satanic Temple as well, right?

Nope. The temple’s display was deemed “grossly offensive”:

The proposed Satanic Temple display (via the Department of Management Services)

In an email Wednesday afternoon, DMS Administrative Assistant Sherrie K. Routt denied Satanic Temple spokesperson Lucien Greaves the inclusion of a kiosk adorned with an angel falling into a pit of flames and the words “Happy Holidays from the Satanic Temple” because “The Department’s position is that your proposed display is grossly offensive during the holiday season.”

The display also has a bible verse, Luke 10:18, which reads “And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.”

You may argue that the application submitted by the temple may have given Florida officials a different idea of what to expect…

… the Satanic Temple described its exhibit as a 5-foot by 5-foot poster “of religious symbols and images that adhere to community standards… to contribute to the plurality of the community by representing the spirit of good will from other faiths.”

… however, keep this in mind: The Satanic Temple’s display was just a depiction of a Bible verse.

Just like the Nativity scene.

It’s irrelevant that one of those displays is about the birth of Jesus while the other depicts hell. What’s important is that Florida officials have deemed themselves the arbiters of which scenes from the Christian holy book are allowed to be displayed and which ones are not. What makes one better or worse? And isn’t it discriminating against the Satanists to say no to them while saying yes to the Christians?

If officials at the Department of Management Services say the Satanic display is too offensive, they owe us an explanation of why it’s any different from the Nativity scene (especially when you consider that Christians believe that those who don’t accept Christ’s divinity are hellbound, too).

Here’s one more thing from the rejection email to the Satanic Temple:

“The Department’s position is that your proposed display is grossly offensive during the holiday season.”

That qualifier makes the problem even worse.

As if the issue at hand is how Christians, specifically, might be offended by the display. As if that matters at all. It’s like the Florida officials are telling the Satanists, “We would totally let you have that display in the Capitol building over the summer, but during Christmas, when we’re celebrating the birth of Jesus, you can’t offend Christian sensibilities by reminding everybody of hell.”

It’s actually surprising to me that the Satanists’ display — again, a scene from the Bible — is considered offensive, while the Flying Spaghetti Monster and Festivus pole, both of which could be construed as mockeries of religious beliefs, are given a free pass.

Maybe Florida would just be better off not allowing any displays in the Capitol building at all. (Which is basically the main reason the atheist groups are fighting to have their displays included in the mix.)

Right now, officials are just setting themselves up for a lawsuit.

(Thanks to Andrew for the link)

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  • “Offensive” is in the eye of the beholder. It isn’t really the State’s decision to make, except within some narrowly defined legal parameters (e.g. racism, pornography) that don’t seem to apply here.

    Hope we see a lawsuit.

  • Kirs

    Religious freedom for some, a big “eff you” to others.

  • Jon Gilmore

    We need more activism out of the satanic community. Suddenly atheist ain’t looking so bad, huh?

  • Wow! After being at the bottom of the liked/trusted list for so long, finally one group is hated more than us! We’re coming up in the world!

    Mother to her son: “So you’re an atheist, you’re gay, you’re a mime, and your boyfriend is a gay black Muslim Justin Bieber fan used car salesman studying to be an abortionist?? Oh, thank goodness! I was afraid you were going to tell me that you’re a Satanist!”

  • JA

    Lawsuit that Florida cannot win incoming…

  • Neko

    The Satanic Temple display is a disappointment. It’s kind of middle-school project bad. They missed an opportunity to shine!

    The spaghetti monster, on the other hand, is adorable.

  • unbound55

    And all the tax money that gets thrown out the window with it…

  • David McNerney

    If I may – to the Satanic Temple – a couple of sprigs of holly might have gone a long way to easing the acceptance of your submission.

  • unbound55

    The only thing that offends me about the Satanist’s display is the same thing that offends me about the FSM display. Looks like a project a kid threw together in a hurry.

    Anything worth doing is worth doing well!

  • That is one seriously awesome diorama! You’d think the Xians would want that sort of advertisement, since they say it enough already.

  • Amor DeCosmos

    I am thinking about converting to Satanism. Those guys just seem to have such a good sense of humour and manage to really push buttons. My kind of people.

  • Timmah

    Meanwhile lets put up some more billboards with a fire graphic in the background about how dudes who like other dudes are gonna burn forever. Cause thats not offensive at all.

  • David Evans

    I have some sympathy with the authorities. If these people truly worship Satan, and take their moral code from him, aren’t they dangerous?

    Here is number 11 of Anton LaVey’s Satanic Rules of the Earth:

    “When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him.” (my italics)

    If atheists argue that that man should have the same rights as Christians, we are going to alienate a lot of people.

  • Art_Vandelay

    … however, keep this in mind: The Satanic Temple’s display was just a depiction of a Bible verse.

    Just like the Nativity scene.

    From the same frickin’ chapter!

  • WallofSleep

    He does have the same rights as christians or anyone else. But just like everyone else, his right to expression ends at the tip of another’s nose.

    He can expect to be jailed for following the violent parts of his scriptures just as easily as a christian can for following their violent parts of their scriptures.

    EDIT: And this is funny. The Satanic bible says to bother no one, but if someone should bother you unprovoked, and refuses to stop, destroy him. That’s evil.

    The christian bible basically commands you to bother the fuck out of people, unrelentingly, and should they refuse your gospel, destroy them to the last. That’s not just good and just, but also love. Funny indeed.

  • One is either for freedom of speech and freedom of religion for everyone, or one is not for those freedoms at all. If we don’t support one group’s freedom just because we don’t want to alienate others, then we’re supporting the very same people who are eager to deny us our freedom as well.

  • Pepe

    That reminded me of this :

  • Pepe

    You mean Obama is a Justin Bieber fan? 😛

  • Richard Tingley

    Sadly, yes, but hopefully it will teach them to say out of the religious display business.

  • Keep the displays coming!! We need all religions to get displays in there so that it gets to a point where it is absurd and they will just end the practice entirely.

  • Jvall

    This is just so delicious it HAS to be fattening!

    They got a visual of the book they’re following and were turned off by it… Yep, it’s true, you want to make atheists, read the bible.

  • JholderBC

    If these people truely worship god, and their their moral code from him arn’t they dangerous?

    There is A LOT of violenent acts mandated by god, and 99.9% of xtians just simply ignore since they do not get their morals from the bible ( luckly for the human race )

  • They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

    Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. “The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him.” (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

  • Well, maybe they were just complaining about the angel statue. Everyone knows that you have to keep staring at it, or there will be trouble. Blink, even just once, and the angel will zap you back in time to an age of superstition and repression.

  • I thought that this was a safe space for mimes…

  • R Bonwell parker

    I think it’s tacky to have that many displays in one area.

  • Dave The Sandman

    Christmas just came early for local civil rights lawyers.

    Sue them my Satanist chums…..sue them till their eyes bleed.

    Next project – find a Satanist student and ensure they get their fair and proper slice of time on that school public address system.

  • Good, let’s hope more people feel the same way…

  • Dave The Sandman

    I agree with the Patrician of Ankh Morpork on the matter of mimes
    Into the scorpion pit with them.

  • JaniceInToronto

    The lawsuit will be fun to watch. The contortions will be delightful. I can hardly wait. Please tell us you’re going to follow this one right through to the bitter end…

  • pianoman

    I think dogs are gods, so I’d like a Golden Retriever display please.

  • JaniceInToronto

    This is going to be fun to watch. The contortions they’ll be going through will be delightful to see. Please Hemant, please tell us you’re going to follow this ’til the bitter end.

  • Keyra

    Christmas is about giving out of love, kindess. About Jesus’ birth (even though Dec 25 is what the Romans picked, the meaning is the same). And immature people wanna use all this mockery to change its meaning. We’re just celebrating the life of Jesus Christ, is that really so awful?

  • Alierias

    Well said!

  • Lark62

    Next year, we should all pick a bible verse to illustrate, to really bring home the wonderful message of the great book. There are lots to choose from. I torn between Lot and his daughters and Ps 137:9.

  • peter taylor

    Good, I’m happy that you are celebrating. Is it ok by you if I also celebrate the winter solstice? You know the same winter solstice that my people celebrated for 2500 years before you Christians came to my land and appropriated the winter solstice and changed its name to Christmas and then threatened my people with death if we continued to celebrate the winter solstice…….?


    Wow, you really don’t know the history of your own holiday, do you? It’s a fact that romans traditionally celebrated their winter solstice at this time. If your mythical christ ever existed, he was not born on dec 25. Even christian scholars know that. Romans rebranded the holiday a christian one, once catholicism had been established as the state religion. It was traditionally a pagan holiday.

  • Keyra

    I’m aware. Does that mean our holiday should be mocked because of what people back then did?

  • When it is the only message being spoken on government property within the United States?

    Yes, it really is awful. When a select viewpoint is promoted while others are denied, then you no longer have a democracy.

  • Alierias

    WTF you don’t get to keep any of the swag!?! Greedy AND jealous — El is just a freekin spoiled teenager…

  • peter taylor

    p.s. And no one is stopping you from celebrating anything. But the constitution strictly guarantees separation of church and state. And this little farce is on state property.

  • bamcintyre

    That’s “memes.”

  • If anyone doubts it. Just go down to Tallahassee, stair at the angel and then blink. When you go outside, you’ll be surround in a culture deep in superstition and repression.

  • I don’t know, holly might be offensive to people that worship Baulder. Can you imagine a religion where people celebrate an instrument of the death of their god?

  • peter taylor

    No one is coming to your home or your church to actively mock your religion. This is about what happens on state property…….And if your religion can’t take a little lighthearted mockery, may I suggest your faith isn’t as strong as you might hope

  • bearclover

    No, it’s not so bad to celebrate the birth of your savior…in your church or in your home or in the homes of like-minded friends and family. it’s not ok in gov’t buildings or public lands.

    And to call people immature, whom you don’t know, is wrong.

  • lisajh

    I think that the satanists should have focused on what they actually believe, and why they are not a threat to you. Also by focusing on the fact that they are not mean people, or people who sacrifice goats or people. lol

  • eric

    You are thinking of the Church of Satan. The Satanic Temple is a different organization entirely. They are, AFAIK, secular materialists who use the Satan angle to fight for first amendent religious freedom and equality.
    IOW, they’re much closer/like FSMers than they are like LaVey followers.

  • Genesis 22:5-8

  • onamission5

    Here are a couple by no means complete lists of both religious and secular holidays which fall during the month of December, many of which are on or near the holiday you call Christmas, many of which are not remotely Christian by any stretch of the imagination. They are all due their legal right to place a holiday display alongside those from the dominant religion, should they choose to exercise it.

    Satanists also have a winter holiday that falls the same week as Christmas, so there’s no legal reason to deny them a holiday display. I for one found their display submission to be as irreverent (and accurate) as I’d expect, not immature at all.

  • Geoffingeorgia

    To Keyra- Yes

  • $84687101

    They’re not LaVeyan Satanists.

    More to the point: LaVeyan Satanists do have the same rights as Christians. So do Nazis. And Quakers. And followers of Voodoo and Santeria. They have the right to free expression of their ideas, regardless of popularity. They do not have the right to commit crimes. The Bible commands women be stoned for adultery, rapists and their victims to marry, and certain tribes to be put to the sword. You think one line you find dangerous in LaVey’s work somehow means Satanists deserve different rights from followers of the Bible? Yes, it may make the defenders of free speech unpopular, but we always have been.

    Also, that pretty much sounds like stand your ground laws, doesn’t it?

  • Lark62

    Another good one. Unfortunately, the brainwashed believe that being willing to murder your own child is a beautiful expression of faith. Gag.

  • i got a 10$ bill to support that effort. FFRF?

  • $84687101

    Next year let’s illustrate this Bible verse with a diorama:

    “There she lusted after her lovers whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.”

  • Lark62

    Practicing your own religion in your own church is hunky-dory. The problem is when you want the government to sponsor your (and only your!) religious worship. The problem is when you decide your religion owns the month of December, and then claim that wishing people “Happy Holidays” is evil, because there is no way that anyone could celebrate any holiday but YOURS.

    Celebrate whatever you want. Just bear in mind that you don’t own the government, you don’t own the courthouse lawn, and you haven’t succeeded in outlawing all other December holidays and celebrations.

  • Squee!

  • Lark62

    Yes. We should pick 20 or 30 nice biblical passages to display.

  • $84687101

    I believe that’s mistletoe. And we’re supposed to kiss under it to honor him, so I think that makes two religions who celebrate the instrument of death of their gods. 😉

  • Lark62

    If you demand that our secular, constitution-based government honor your holiday alone while excluding all others, yes, prepare to be mocked.

  • Terry Firma

    Isn’t it the other way around? Gods are dogs?

  • onamission5

    Dr. Who creepiest episode ever reference +1

  • onamission5

    I cannot possibly upvote your edit enough.

  • Oh, duh. LOL It would seem I’ve gotten my mythologies mixed up again.

    It is mistletoe! Thanks for the correction.

  • $84687101

    Your general point was very funny anyway!

  • pianoman

    Psalm 137:9

  • pianoman

    I suppose it depends on whether you intend to insult the dog.

  • WallofSleep

    They could also focus on the fact that they don’t actually believe in or worship Lucifer, but that would ruin the satire factor of what they’re trying to do.

  • ZenDruid

    The Catholic Encyclopedia (for what it’s worth) says that the date for xmas was probably taken from the Sol Invictus festival day. Gifts given were candles and small ornaments.

  • Jarod Sholtz


  • Jarod Sholtz

    In their defense, they probably assumed from the get-go that it would be denied. If it was approved, I’m sure they would have spruced it up and made it impressive.

  • Unholy Wrath

    I request the calamari dish Miskatonic Elementary put together to honor great Cthulhu be put on display too. All those in favor say Ia.

  • Birdie1986

    A bolt of lightning would have better illustrated the Bible verse and might have stood a chance. I think they wanted to be denied for grounds for a lawsuit. Either that, or Satanists are just not very artistic.

  • JeffWest

    Deuteronomy 22:28-29, on how to achieve married bliss by raping a child

  • Matt Bowyer

    I sense a lawsuit….

  • quasibaka

    It’s a mockery of religion . Making it artistic and impressive is not central to it’s aim – to get rid of all religion on government property.

    BTW , this is just volunteer work . No call to disparage the efforts of others. Just help them do better if you can 🙂

  • WallofSleep

    Every time I read a complaint about the quality of a display or billboard here, it always makes me think of my grandma, and what she would say every single, tiresome time she happened upon of piece of abstract or impressionist art:

    “A three year old could paint that. How can they dare call that mess ‘art’? Only an idiot would pay money for that.”

  • Anymouse

    Denied or vandalized.

  • Anymouse

    Or even ACLU.

  • Bob Jase

    Please sink that state into the swamp itm came from.

  • Bob Jase

    A mime is a terrible thing to waste.

  • WallofSleep

    I see your typo. It’s spelled “taste”, with a “t”. You’re welcome.

  • Bob Jase

    You’ll be celebrating his death in 4 months too. Oddly no celebration of anything in between.

  • Bob Jase

    Sounds like Florida’s ‘Stand Your Ground’ law to me.

  • WallofSleep

    ” We’re just celebrating the life of Jesus Christ, is that really so awful?”

    Not at all, and you can do that without having the gov’t illegally endorsing your faith on public property. Hell, atheist that I am, I’ll even wish you a Merry Christmas, and mean it sincerely. And would you look at that; I didn’t burst into flames.

    ” And immature people wanna use all this mockery to change its meaning.”

    Funny, christianity engaged in a shit ton of that in order to steal pagan holidays and change their meaning. Is sauce for the goose no longer sauce for the gander?

  • Thorsen Vreeland

    This is another one that bugs me….
    How could God be sure Abraham would actually have done it? God doesn’t seem to have been able to tell any time earlier than the moment Abraham has the knife in his hand hovering over Isaac, which isn’t very inciteful for a surpreme being IMO.
    But it still doesn’t *prove* that Abraham would really go through with it, until the act is committed surely. (And then God being God could simply have brought Isaac back to life)
    The whole exercise seems to achieve nothing (well, apart from traumatising a child). #trollolol

  • Anymouse

    And vice versa! The feelings are mutual, whichever way you look at it.

  • Anymouse

    It is awful to have the government involved in religion, regardless of the celebration.

  • Leiningen’s Ants

    Who, the taxpayers?

  • David Evans

    Christians are stuck with some terrible Bible verses that they’ve inherited from thousands of years ago. I don’t know any Christian who values those verses or wants to act on them. LaVey has chosen to write that line, presumably it expresses his belief.

    Also, stand your ground looks pretty dangerous to me.

    I’m aware that freedom of speech is a positive value that we in the UK perhaps don’t value enough. But I am made uneasy when atheists claim to see no moral difference between present-day Christians and Satanists.

  • David Evans

    If they are secular materialists they have an odd way of showing it. A falling angel, the flames of Hell and Bible quotes?

    The FSM is obviously silly and non-threatening. I think it unwise to evoke the image and associations of Satan if you don’t mean them. It makes you sound dangerous even if you aren’t.

  • DavidMHart
  • DavidMHart

    It’s not an odd way, just a satirical one. They are making fun of religion by posing as one.

  • David Evans

    OK. I missed the satire.

  • Unholy Wrath

    The calamari shall not be consumed as it represents the majesty of our supreme ruler. We shall gaze lovingly upon our lord, singing songs of praise and glory. Preferably death metal….

    Scream from the diaphram, not the throat.

  • jdm8

    That exclusion is just rich, given how some Christians go out of their way to remind people of hell. Just as you can’t separate Jesus from Christianity, I don’t think you can totally separate the belief in (some form of) hell from Christianity, it’s said in the Christian Bible that Jesus mentioned it a few times. How people interpret and understand those words can vary though.

  • Ryan

    And Bigfoot. He’s my higher power.

  • Phillip Kelly

    I think it’s less about the group and more about the depiction of death on what is considered a Family Holiday just as much as it’s considered a Christian one.

  • the moother

    “Oh, so you’re offended? Well so fucking what” – Stephen Fry

  • Phillip Kelly

    The thing is, the State was open to letting them represent themselves. No one seemed to have a problem with it. So, why was there need to mock? What was the point of mocking? They were being allowed to do something they wanted to do. They couldn’t even stick to the parameters of what they said they were going to do.

  • The atheist signs were incredibly polite.

  • Hex

    I’m a fan of the reasonable person standard and the idea that, in general, being offended is in the mind of the beholder.

  • carolsue1313

    So a dude nailed to a cross is not grossly offensive.

  • Neko

    That’s the funniest thing I’ve ever read on this site. But now I’m having second thoughts about converting.

  • Elroy Willis


  • Elroy Willis

    It was Ishmael, not Isaac!

  • Ryan1159

    I could see how they found the display offensive just because it could be considered graphic. Maybe they should just submit a less graphic scene and see if it gets accepted!

  • Ryan1159

    The “Satanic Temple” group that put up the display are not even theistic Satanists. Their tenets are about embracing logic and reason and they just use Satan as a symbol. A certain type of humanism, I guess.

  • Ryan1159

    That’s the point 🙂

  • I plan to!

  • Itarion

    Something like this? Only with stronger shading on the Earth below, it think. But this one, I like.

  • Neko
  • Thorsen Vreeland

    And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built
    an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and
    laid him on the altar upon the wood. – KJV –

    (Ishmael is Isaac’s older half-brother)

  • Neko

    One theory has it that Genesis 22 was meant to discourage child sacrifice, which may have been practiced by the early Israelites.

    Though that interpretation is a bit of a stretch; the point seems to be that complete submission to authority is a virtue.

  • $84687101

    Would you care to count Satanists who’ve murdered people compared to Christians? Satanists who’ve murdered in the name of Satan compared to Christians who’ve murdered in the name of Christ? Satanists who’ve mistreated people for being gay? Satanists who’ve tried to restrict others’ rights?

    I see two problems with your logic here:
    1.) You’re operating from a completely false media narrative of Satanism. Satanism barely exists, to the extent that it does, there’s no evidence of any kind of widespread evil or ritual abuse done in it’s name.
    2.) Being from the UK, maybe you don’t really get what Christianity does in a nation where it dominates politics, but while the vast majority of Christians are great people, there are some really fucking evil Christians who believe they are following the Bible when they beat the tar out of a gay kid in a bar, when they murder obstetricians, when they assault people for saying Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas, when they burn a cross into the arms of their students. Though it’s hard to imagine anyone who’s been around this site much not realizing that, evil is done in the name of Christ in this country every day.

    Satanism, not so much. There’s a clear moral difference between present-day Christians and Satanists: the Satanists are much more moral.

  • toth

    How about donating another nativity scene, this time with one of those shitting figures that the Spaniards love so much?

  • Bryan

    Eh, I disagree with you on this one. to someone unfamiliar with the specific bible verse, (which a lot of people going into that building are going to be) the display looks like a person falling into a pit of fire. I can see they wouldn’t want that on display.

  • Amor DeCosmos

    That’s why I think I will be able to convert quite easily. I like these guys!

  • Jacobi Coriolanus

    Should have just gone with a depiction of some kind of European magick character instead of a Bible verse which smacks too much of it being opposed to Christianity.

  • Ryan1159

    Those are both great! If those get denied, then I think they have a case.

  • EmmittBrownBTTF1

    And finally we got ’em, roll up your sleeves boy and girls, there is a law suit to draft.

  • Shae Bird

    Leiningen No, The ideologues

  • Shae Bird

    This should make it on Court TV.

  • Spuddie

    Good, then you can have your religious symbols in front of your church instead of on taxpayer funded state property.

    Why should we let your religion have access to the government facility and not others? If everyone can’t participate, nobody should. Government is not in the business of playing favorites with religions.

  • Spuddie

    No more dangerous than Born Again Christians and Jehovah’s witnesses. They believe anyone but themselves are unworthy of human consideration. Those people are far worse than the Satanists.

    Why should Christians have greater rights than anyone? Exercising “Christian privilege” on public alienates a lot of people and in most cases violates the law.

  • Spuddie

    There is a great moral difference between Christians and Satanists.
    Christians profess morals but do not follow them or use it as an excuse to act immorally. Satanists avoid professing morality and do not blame their faith for immoral actions.
    Satanists are far more moral than Christians.

  • Spuddie


  • Spuddie

    Gods are cats. Every cat and their servant/owner knows this.

  • David Evans

    2.) I am aware of what you say about Christianity in the US. I’m not sure you can say that Satanists are on average more moral than Christians, given (a) the tiny sample size and (b) their lack of political power and a platform.

  • NavinJay

    Really? Like preachers don’t still talk about going to hell during sermons in December? Wow.

  • Psycho Gecko

    He’ll hear no objection from the mimes at least.

  • Lilly Munster

    Why can’t we just combine all these Faith Based Myths, and just create a brand new Religion that will fulfill everyone’s Fears, Dreams, Guilt and will encourage rampant Martyrdom?

  • Because that would defeat the purpose. Feeling smugly superior to everyone else.

  • $84687101

    Yes, there’s a problem with trying to do statistics on it. But given that we have:
    1.) LaVeyan Satanic writings that can be interpreted to be evil,
    2.) Christian writings that are hard to interpret any way but evil,
    3.) Ongoing evidence of Christians doing evil in the name of their religion, and
    4.) Absolutely no evidence of LaVeyan Satanists doing evil in the name of their religion, much less of the Satanic Temple Satanists doing evil.

    Can we at least acknowledge that seeing them as at least morally equivalent is fair and reasonable, or do you actually believe the 80s Satanic panic narrative?

    Of course, the less political power and platform religious groups of any stripe have, the better.

  • Elroy Willis

    I was just pointing out that Muslims believe it was Ishmael instead of Isaac who was going to be sacrificed…

  • David Evans

    I’ll accept that that is a reasonable position.

    I’m still curious though. Satan is the character who in Milton says “Evil be thou my good” and in Faust and many other stories makes it his life’s work to cause souls to burn for ever in Hell. Why would a bunch of nice people take him as their exemplar?

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