Selling Alcohol in London’s Brick Lane? According to Local Fundies, That’s a Flogging, and a Flogging Is Just the Start December 16, 2013

Selling Alcohol in London’s Brick Lane? According to Local Fundies, That’s a Flogging, and a Flogging Is Just the Start

“We cannot live among the non-Muslims and see this evil take place,” intoned hardline wannabe cleric Anjem Choudary.

Choudary, a London-based advocate of strict Islamism, was referring to the consumption of alcohol, and issued a warning to shopkeepers and restaurant staff in London’s Brick Lane area where the preacher and his following marched last Friday:

“Under Sharia and under the Koran the sale of alcohol is prohibited, and if one were to also drink alcohol, that would be 40 lashes.” …

“We were there to teach them that just because they are living among non-Muslims is no excuse because Sharia law will be implemented in Britain, and so they should be aware that just because it is not Sharia today, they can’t just do whatever they like.”

Mr. Choudary thinks he can transform Britain over the next two generations:

There will be no more pubs, no more gambling houses, no more national lottery. All women would have to be covered up appropriately and wear the niqab or veil and so there will be no prostitution. By 2050, Britain will be a majority Muslim country. It will be the end of freedom, of democracy — and [the implementation of] submission to God. … As soon as they have authority, Muslims should implement Sharia.”

He confirmed that he wants to see adulterers stoned to death. He also supports punishing thieves by having one of their hands cut off.

However, he denies recruiting young Muslims to commit acts of war or terror in the Middle East. But here’s who he quite obviously does (indirectly) recruit: more fed-up Brits to join the far-right English Defence League, often associated with skinheads and fascists. To the EDL and the BNP, Choudary is the gift that keeps on giving.

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  • Suck it Anjem Choudary.

  • Middenface McFidget

    Hah, nothing more than a fantasist. He tried the exact same thing in 2011, nothing came of it other than giving the nationalist bigots more fuel.

  • guest

    He, and people like him, are a gift for the EDL leadership too. They feed off each other.
    I don’t believe that most muslim immigrants want sharia law. Maybe I’m naive, but I think they just want to live their lives like the rest of us. Stuff like this is scary, but you get whackaloons in every religion, and in every social movement. The guys probably a psycopath. He’s atypical.

  • Oh, I would like to kick this guy’s ass repeatedly (figuratively speaking, of course). I have been afraid for the UK ever since I watched this documentary about this British guy that converted to a very strict flavor of Islam.

    He too was fantasizing about one day having all of the UK (and Europe incidentally) under the thumb of sharia law.
    They even had patrols telling people what to do or not to do.

    Disgusting. And then they complaint that everyone else is islamophobic if they don’t pander to them. How am I supposed to let them know I don’t agree with their stance and that I will fight them to my last breath as well as I would fight any sect trying to do the same thing?

    All he is going to accomplish is to have the far right recruit other ideologues so they can create a nice civil war.

    It’s not Islam I am against, it’s the imposition of religious morals. You want to impose your morals?

    No pasaran!

  • WalterWhite007

    Choudry is a self serving lunatic. Unfortunately, many muslims think he’s right.
    Pat Condell and others in Britain have exposed him for what he is.
    All of Europe is threatened by islam through population growth. Birth rates are too low among the old Europeans.

  • JA

    Cue Fox News freakout in 5…4…3…

  • In my drinking days, a statement like this from Sr. Choudary would have been tantamount to an invitation.

  • A3Kr0n

    Andy Choudary? Oh, that reminds me that I haven’ checked Pat Condell’s YouTube channel in a while.

  • Thought I would share this. I found it interesting, but note that CBN is the source. Oh, and proceed into the comments section with caution.

  • Middenface McFidget

    I think you overestimate his influence, the media loves to follow him
    around because the nonsense he spouts gets people angry, but he has very
    little support in reality. The birth rates are irrelevant, beliefs are not genetic. And please, exposed by Condell? He’s no different from Choudary, a fringe lunatic ranting to whoever will listen.

  • D

    I feel sorry for muslims. One day they are going to set off a firestorm from the West. There is only so much a threatened group will tolerate until they retaliate. My worst fear is that the muslims will cause their own holocaust. Hopefully the younger generation of muslims will become secular.

  • james

    CBN(Christianity) and Al-Jazera(Islam) are quite the same.When they aren’t advocating for their own religious views they actually do some decent reporting.

  • UWIR

    Beliefs are not genetic but they are inherited.

  • punklr

    I think we need to be careful when careful when engaging in this sort of dialogue. It’s easy to sound xenophobic, or to attack the peope,rather than the ideas. There are better ways to criticize extremism than to say there are too many brown babies being born and too few white babies.

  • Middenface McFidget

    And of course the parents are the only influence, right? Two things can happen, Islamic communities could stay insular in which case they will remain as fundamentalist as the countries they came from but have little to no influence on anything outside their communities, or they could interact and mix with the rest of British society which will lead to a gradual shift towards more moderate beliefs. I live in London currently and from what I have seen the latter is far more prevalent.

  • Brian Westley

    Three of his idiot followers were sent to jail just a few weeks back for trying to impose their sharia law on people:

  • Lori F

    “We cannot live among the non-Muslims and see this evil take place,” intoned hardline wannabe cleric Anjem Choudary.
    Well, Maybe they shouldn’t be living among the non-Muslims.
    As for patrolling around the mosque for non-Muslims breaking Muslim law, Who was there first? The Non? or the Muslims? The Mosque? or the Bar?

  • Castilliano

    I don’t drink, but I would pretend to, all the while chowing on some pork.
    Evil? Gimme an effin’ break.
    There’s plurality. Get used to it.

  • Richard Thomas

    Two pieces critical of islam in a row?.But all the fundie christians who troll here say all you do is attack THEM…

  • Spuddie

    He sounds like the UK Muslim version of the Westboro Baptist Church. Gets lots of coverage for being ridiculous. Not taken seriously by anyone who matters.

  • Spuddie

    It kinda helps when they don’t go out of their way to antagonize the Muslim communities or blatantly discriminate against them as a matter of policy. Otherwise you end up with what happens in France. No self-respecting Briton wants to be like the French, right?

  • Terry Firma

    You’re correct that most Muslim immigrants in the UK don’t want sharia law.

    Only 40 percent do. That number has held more or less steady between 2006 and 2012. So hey, four out of ten, nothing to worry about.

  • Terry Firma

    I’ve noticed.

  • Terry Firma

    The best numbers we have (national polls in 2006 and 2011) say that 4 in 10 British Muslims want sharia law. Dozens of sharia courts are already functioning all over the U.K. Those people may not all be Choudary fans, but their ideologies don’t seem so very different from his, do they?

  • I was raised by Southern Baptist fundamentalist Christians. Look at how I turned out! Sorry but people are going to want alcohol, gambling and prostitution. If they didn’t, those things wouldn’t exist. So no, they aren’t going away just because some cleric rants about them. And since I don’t think human nature is negated by any religion, not even Islam, I’m willing to bet that the guy saying all this has a stash of beer, porn and/or lottery tickets at home.

  • No one is saying that it’s not a problem that there are people who believe this way, but of it’s not even a majority of Muslims who want shariah law then it seems like that’s not going to become the law.

  • Then don’t live among non-Muslims. There are plenty of Muslim countries where such things are illegal. Go, and don’t look back.

  • Terry Firma

    Guilt by association?

  • $925105

    Sounds like the terrorists are advertising. Best get that deportation boat ready. There’s plenty of real estate in Afghanistan for any fundy that wants to practice Sharia Law. Let the level headed secular Muslims who embrace civilization stay, deport the savages.

  • RowanVT

    I was just thinking “Hey Keyra….”

  • WalterWhite007

    That’s not what is happening in Britain. Muslims are using/pushing sharia and other morally bankrupt ideas.

  • randomfactor

    We don’t have to outbreed them. We’ll take THEIR children.

    (Anyone who’s worried about the Islam birthrate in Europe is innumerate.)

  • WalterWhite007

    Beliefs are passed like a virus from parents to kids. Most people’s religion is their parents’ religion. Birth rates are not irrelevant. There are many birth rate projection scenarios for the world and they all point to muslims out-birthing all Europeans. Birth rates are so low among the ‘old’ Europeans it will almost impossible to maintain a majority and their cultures. Condell is rarely wrong in what he says. He is no way like Choudary. Many muslims support Choudary and what he says.

  • baal

    Private ‘policing’ is a recipe for disaster.

  • Little_Magpie

    and possibly even bacon. (evil grin)

  • indorri

    Well, fuck.

    You know what’s even worse about this? It gives the rising tide of fascism further fuel. Caught between attempts to drag societies into theocracy and attempts to drag societies into xenophobic jingoism…

  • indorri

    I am honestly super afraid of this. I honestly believe that people being born and raised in extreme religions and ideologies like this will lead to disaster, but saying that implies horrific solutions that will fuck all sorts of things up (a la “raising the natives in a ‘civilized’ environment”, per past Australia’s rather insane relation with Aborigines).

  • Mike Hitchcock

    What makes you think Afghanistan would want these idiots? Don’t they have enough of their own?

  • April Lamba

    Scary thing is that these Sharia Muslims are the same beliefs as many Muslims in other countries in the world. I think almost all (or all) denominations of Christian prominent Chruches condemn Westborro Baptist Church. I can easily find many Muslims in Islamic Countries, or even in the west (as I am an ex-Muslim and been raised by a “moderate” Muslim family), the beliefs of the crazies in those groups are 100% from the Quran and Prophets legacy.

  • Mike Hitchcock

    I’d like to see Choudray try enforcing that.

    I really would.

  • EAP

    I hope some of you take the time to read the mission statement from the creator of the EDL. While unfortunately such groups will inevitably attract ignorant and violent morons, at it’s core, I find what he is attempting to do very sensible. People have the right to protect their own cultures and expect others to assimilate to certain (though admittedly often hard to determine degree) My home town is near Dallas Texas, and over the years we have seen the Chinese, Koreans, Vietnamese, and of course Hispanic populations grow. It is substantial enough that there is a very modest Vietnamese section in my local library. These cultures add incredible value to our community, and in spite of many peoples’ perception of Texas, they are welcomed with their languages, cuisine and culture all greatly intact. We have not had any issues with the Islamic community, but I do notice differences in that they expect others to adhere to their cultural norms. I used to work in a beauty salon, and women wearing burqa’s would request I not be near them as they got their hair done since I was a man. Though it is trite, I find this unacceptable. Texas is very live and let live but I find any accommodating any culture a lacking excuse to interfere with the work day. If it were only this, I would perhaps be inclined to oblige, but I think the U.K. is a good precedent that shows that extreme communities in the Islamic world are not intent on facilitating that live and let live lifestyle we treasure in Texas (I know I’m going to get rebuttal on that, but I can tell you it is there) While violence and discrimination are never acceptable, using your citizenry to draw the line and protect cultural standards set by the majority of the community is admirable. I am happy that the Democratic party (of which I am a part of ) has not begun to conflate protecting one’s cultural mores with hate speech against a party, but I am greatly concerned that this may happen. Even though he seems to me ostensibly maligned in this post, I think the mission statement of the EDL deserves a second glance as I find its intent (if perhaps not its ilk) worth consideration.

  • Middenface McFidget

    Mate did you miss the part where I said I live in London? I am looking at what’s happening here. A few nutjobs talking shit and the media giving them disproportionate attention ≠ the Islamisation of society. This idiot tried the same thing a couple of years back, stuck up a few of those stickers, scored a few tabloid pages and few more recruits for the EDL and that’s it. Nothing came of it. He doesn’t have anywhere near the support he wants people to think he has.

  • anon atheist

    The irony is that you in the US are much closer to sharia law than we in Europe. Gambling, public drinking, prostitution, topless or even nude sunbathing are mostly banned, smoking is heavily regulated, things that by and large are still legal in Europe. But we are the ones who have the bloody muslims.

  • keddaw

    Islam is not inherited.

    If we got rid of sectarian schools and improved our education system we could educate the mental out of fundamentalism.

  • Graham Martin-Royle

    There are more comments on this thread than protesters who turned up to support this idiot.

  • Middenface McFidget

    Even if those polls are accurate (I’m not exactly sure what the sources are) a negligible amount of British Muslims do anything more than pay lip service to wanting sharia law. Those “sharia courts” are nothing more than arbitration tribunals that settle familial and financial disputes. While there are legitimate concerns about women receiving unfair treatment from them they have absolutely no authority to impose legal punishments. I am certainly not saying that there is no problem with Islamic fundamentalism in the UK just that the media tends to give disproportionate attention to the extremist elements.

  • rufus_t

    I don’t think you can really be accused of xenophobia for calling Choudary a loon, partly because he clearly is (thinking that the sub-5% Islamic population of the UK are likely to be able to declare sharia without the other 95% objecting in the strongest of terms) but mostly because he was born in the London Borough of Bexley.
    In order to be xenophobic then doesn’t the subject of your phobia actually have to be foreign?

  • rufus_t

    Four out of ten out of one out of twenty (based on an unreasonably generous increase in the Muslim population since the last census, so the numbers work out easier)
    I think (please correct if wrong) that that works out as 2%, I’d not be expecting the Islamic Revolution any time soon.

  • DavidMHart

    “In order to be xenophobic then doesn’t the subject of your phobia actually have to be foreign?”

    The ‘xeno-‘ bit means either foreign or strange, so it’s perfectly applicabla to cases of being afraid of people who are not like you (i.e. strange from your own perspective), even if you come from the same country.

  • David McNerney

    The WBC doesn’t attack people – these lunatics do.

  • Pattrsn

    I think The white in his name is short for white supremacy.

  • Pattrsn

    I don’t think you can let the bible or Christianity off the hook that easily. WBC isn’t the only problem just look at how many people in Africa are killed by the catholic and fundie Protestant churches because they preach that condoms don prevent aids.

  • Pattrsn

    I was thinking something similar, if the social conservatism of American fundies is causing young Christians to turn rethInk their religion, maybe nutjobs like this will cause young Muslims to rethink theirs.

  • Pattrsn

    You mean like the Jews did?

  • Oranje

    This needs to stop. They’ve gone too far.

    There is NO reason for Shariah to be in quotes on the bottom of that poster. NONE!

  • Pamastymui

    How about Women Pride parade in this kind of neighborhood?

  • Jeff

    But it’s *not* evil. It wouldn’t even be rude.

  • Middenface McFidget

    The EDL are a bigoted bunch of nationalist thugs, even their founder no longer supports them. If you are interested in a less insane response to Islamism in the UK I recommend the One Law for All campaign

  • rufus_t

    Indeed, although where I grew up (rural southern England) “foreign” started about two villages away. And I certainly wouldn’t argue against “racist” as a fair description of something to avoid.
    As for strange from my own perspective, well yes. Having gone from a drinking womanizing medical student in the 90s who went by the name Andy, I have to confess that to become the mouthpiece of intolerant Islam in general as well as two separate proscribed (banned under UK anti-terror legislation) groups in particular does strike me as strange.

  • Simon3456

    What does the poster have to do with the protest?

  • Spuddie

    I guess i stand corrected. Then I guess they are closer to the Christian theocrats in Russia and Uganda. Violent bigots who want their religious foibles to have color of law. 🙂

  • How did I forget bacon???

  • Spuddie

    1. WBC gets plenty of support from other Christian sects and it’s agenda is well ensconced in the Religious Right’s political platform. They just say out loud what other Christians “dog whistle”. So I call BS on the notion that Christian crazies are in any way better than their Islamic counterparts.

    2. Virtually all of the problems associated with fundamentalists of any stripe are political in nature. There is no difference between Muslim or any other religion in this respect except the level of political control they are given.
    The “Muslim world” is predominately post-colonial autocracies which used to be predominately nationalist and secular in nature. Islamicism grew from both the influence of Iran (and reactions to them) and a way for dictators to siphon off dissent away from potential revolution. If not for the near eradication of dictatorship from the developed western nations we would be seeing Christian fundamentalists with greater ability to cause mayhem.

  • David McNerney

    Mentally they are probably much the same.

    But once people actually start abusing women on the street and beating up same-sex couples – then they need to be, not necessarily taken seriously but certainly dealt with seriously.

  • Spuddie

    Like every other gang or terrorist.

  • Steve in the UK

    Choudary is a hypocrite who liked to drink and smoke as a student, he’s never had a job and is happy to live off benefits which are paid by the taxes of non Muslims, he’s a slimeball. As for the EDL, they are the other side of the coin, extremists themselves. Both disgust me.

  • WalterWhite007

    There are sharia courts in England. Just because you can’t see them doesn’t mean anything. cheers
    Islam, by its very nature is political. When push comes to shove muslims have to side with their religion or give it up. It’s not as easy to be a moderate muslim as it is a moderate christian. Most ‘moderates’ (cathlicks for example) don’t even realize that by not practicing all parts of their faith they aren’t really even cathlicks any more. That’s how much delusion is involved in religious belief. cheers

  • Middenface McFidget

    I’m just going to copy what I said about this earlier because you don’t seem to have seen it: Those “sharia courts” are nothing more than arbitration tribunals that settle familial and financial disputes. While there are legitimate concerns about women receiving unfair treatment from them they have absolutely no authority to impose legal punishments.

  • WalterWhite007

    Societal pressures would be every bit as severe or more so than legal courts. Muslim girls in Britain are routinely taken back to the ‘homeland’ to be circumcised/butchered. You seem quite naïve. Or you’re sympathetic to muslims, or a muslim. Sharia courts and their decisions are very ‘real’ to muslims no matter how you want to soft sell it.

  • WalterWhite007

    I’m not xenophobic. I just don’t want to be outnumbered by any fanatically religious nutjobs that think their way is the only way.

  • EAP

    Thank you, I did notice in the mission statement that he had disavowed himself from them, so I figured that the organization itself was not reputable. Thank you for suggesting a legitimate alternative.

  • Nomad

    I can’t get over thinking that this has to be a, forgive me for saying this, false flag operation.

    No, really, I just can’t look at this without thinking how it looks like it was staged specifically to tell the Islamaphobes that they’re right. Every single part of it looks like it was carefully chosen to reassure the “OMG they’re going to bring us under Shariah law” nutjobs that they’re right. It’s not that I don’t believe Shariah law is real, or that there are people that want to impose it on the rest of the world. But this guy just seems too much like a collection of talking points rather than a real person. I mean he even brought up the “we’ll outbreed them” argument, the same thing being used in the US to try to push real true Christians to pump out more babies to outbreed the dark skinned, er, pardon me, non christian, people who are always about to take over the country.

    In particular the proud announcement of the end of freedom just doesn’t ring true. I find that religious types usually like to claim that their specific brand of religious tyranny is the only true freedom. It just strikes me as uncharacteristic of them to openly declare their desire to end freedom entirely.

  • Nomad

    “While violence and discrimination are never acceptable, using your citizenry to draw the line and protect cultural standards set by the majority of the community is admirable.”

    And that’s where your thinking runs into trouble. If you believed that, then you’d be happy to accept your values being subverted and basically replaced by the values of another culture if they become the majority.

    Indeed Choudary basically said something similar. He expects that “his” people will outnumber the current majority by 2050 and that once that happens they’ll be able to take set their own “cultural standards” that reject freedom and democracy. Is “but there are more of us and we disagree” really the only argument you can produce for why things should be done your way instead of his? What happens to it when the Hispanics outnumber the other ethnic groups in the US eventually?

    Something better is needed than the tyranny of the majority to guide society.

  • You can take it for granted while it’s legal… 🙂

  • islandbrewer

    Um, Al Jazeera doesn’t actually advocate any religious views. They’re not a religiously affiliated or oriented network. They just specialize in news from the arabic speaking world. You know they started off as the BBC Arabic desk, don’t you?

  • Eap

    I see the point in your argument,to counter that point however, even though I am an atheist, I see 2 things wrong with using purely objective standards cultural foundation (I’m
    making an assumption that you believe all cultural ideas should be challenged, and judged on their efficacy rather than whether or not a majority adhere to them.) My first problem is that intellectual ideas are just as subject to cultural intransigence as religious ones. It is in my view that it is very difficult to get a truly unbiased view of many modern concepts as they are entrenched in political warfare, this running a society based purely on logical paradigms, while ideal, is not probable. Second, and paradoxically, I think that constantly probing societies mores would keep it in an a state of flux that is untenable for how humans are inclined to operate. Again not ideal, but using silly, illogical things are how societies usually operate, I am an atheist, I do not find this ideal, it’s just a feature of the human condition. Let me conclude by saying, I have no problem if in the future my society becomes ingrained with Hispanic society and my nieces and nephews children end up speaking Spanish, or even Chinese for that matter. I do not have a problem if the entirety of Americam culture were to be uprooted by a foreign culture in the futures, especially since history teaches us that it is inevitable. What I do mind are religious extremist from an intransigent corner of the world threatening the future freedoms of American society. I have met some really wonderful people from the arab community, and if my posterity ended up speaking Arabic based on how society simply ended up, I wouldn’t mind at all. What I do take offense to are people willfully and violently trying to usurp other cultures, and replace them with ones that would plunge my home into another dark age. And as I said before, I am glad of and support agencies that would prevent that.

  • Nomad

    See, you’re not talking about maintaining culture based on the force of the tyranny of the majority, then. You’re talking about simple things like supporting policies that promote the maximum possible freedom. Hence Shariah loans being allowable because they are voluntary arrangements that people can enter into if they so choose, but Shariah court systems that strip women of their rights are not. We don’t do this because white American culture says otherwise, we do it because it’s wrong to strip women of their rights.

    You seem to think you’re taking a pragmatic approach by encouraging people to see this as an us versus them conflict. I find it a dangerous one.

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