Ask Richard: Atheist Looks Into Conversion to Keep Catholic Boyfriend

I feel like her boyfriend basically just said “I don’t love the person you are, so I want you to turn into the person I intend to love.” I do appreciate his honesty, but I’m not very impressed with his tact. Surely there was a better way and a better time to bring this up than as an ultimatum in the middle of an argument.

I broke up with a guy over the same thing. He just got married to what I assume was a Christian, and I’m very happy for him. I decided to only date atheists after that breakup, and I’ve been dating the most wonderful man I could have ever imagined for almost three years.

If your conversion is a make or break issue for the boyfriend, you will probably not be able to stay together.  It’s up to you if you want to go on for a bit (if you both like each other and the opportunity cost from not being able to look for someone you could actually end up with is low).  You could set a deadline (say, three months from now) and  lend each other books and recommend online articles.  If neither of you has changed your mind in that time or thinks it’s likely to happen, then call it quits.

Also, just as a matter of theology, your boyfriend isn’t guaranteed to see a Catholic wife in heaven, nor is he guaranteed to not see an atheist one.  You might want him to run that objection by his priest, so he can get corrected on that.

The critical item here is the demand to convert.  My wife is an Easter Sunday Greek Orthodox, though she crosses herself every night before bed.  I’m an Atheist.  It works because we love each other and neither has asked the other to change.  I suspect that it’s also because we never had kids.  Given that the boyfriend doesn’t go to church I suspect that this has more to do with how he wants to raise his kids then with the Isabel’s Atheism.   My suggestion would be to have a deeper conversation with him.  Ask why things have changed?  Would he be okay if she didn’t convert and the kids went to Sunday school?  Would it be okay if the kids were exposed to other religions and the Atheist point of view in addition to the Catholic point of view?  Would he be okay if they were Unitarian instead of Catholic?  I’m not sure that any of these positions would be acceptable to Isabel, but they do represent the middle ground and it should at least be explored.  If none of those positions are acceptable then I’d run as fast as you can away from this guy.  If he’s laying down “my way or the highway” positions now then you should expect more such decisions later in life.  It also shows that he doesn’t value you as a person, and you need that for a happy marriage.

The priest spoke about tolerance… he should speak to the boyfriend then, no the girlfriend. It’s the guy the one having a problem tolerating others.

If someone isn’t willing to say “you are more important than my relationship with you” then they’re probably bad life partner material.

dump him. sorry, but you should. do it now, take the pain, and move on. he’s only going to get worse about it as he gets older. he’s choosing to make an invisible sky fairy more important than your love. that says everything about him. move on. 

What a well-written response! I read this and thought that the writer of that letter sounds young, and in love, and a bit blind to the circumstances. Richard responded in an exceptionally tactful way that didn’t “talk down” to the writer for acting young (though he did respectfully touch on it) or chide her for not seeing the options she has already laid out.  Hats off to you, good sir.

“Dear Leah,…”

Let’s see how this would work if the shoe was on the other foot. Try going to your boyfriend and tell him that not only you find it dishonest to convert to his religion for the only reason that he wants you to, but on second thought, if he wants to stay with you and marry you, he needs to “de-convert” and renounce his catholicism, or at the very least promise to never impose his religion to your future brood and never to bring it up again.

I would suspect that he is not going to be thrilled at the prospect, yet it is really no different than what he asked you to do. 

As far as the priest, the sermon and the church, I was born and raised in Rome, Italy. I was baptized in St. Peter basilica. Do you want to talk about impressive settings to grow up as a catholic? 
I’ll be the first to admit that catholics put up some of the best cerimoni9es around, but there is a lot more to being a catholic than attend mass and participate in ancient rituals wearing funny hats.

Some time ago, I changed my Cable-tv service provider. The priest-salesperson I spoke to was very convincing and made a beautiful speech-sermon about the benefits of their service.
Yet, once I joined, I discovered that their customer service was sorely lacking. When I joined they made a mistake I did not realize until well into a month after I started the service and now to correct that mistake they want something like $300.

Likewise, the church will expect all sort of things from you that I am not sure you will be ready to give. From your children education to your personal behavior.

The fact that your boyfriend did not seem very religious means nothing. He is religious enough to want to impose his beliefs upon you. He did not offer to have you agree on one of the two positions, his and yours. He simply gave you an ultimatum to join his religion and that’s it.  That means that he does not consider you a full partner in your relationship, but he thinks you are obviously inferior to him.

Of course, for many catholics it is a matter of cultural heritage. My own brother only went to church at weddings and funerals since he had his first communion, yet when I told him I had no intention of baptizing my daughter into the faith he almost went bezerk. His own 3 daughters are all baptized, confirmed and will marry in church even though all of them are non-believers. 

That could be your boyfriend’s motivation as well, but it doesn’t make it right.

I would think long and hard about marrying this person, but I would suggest that if you decide to continue the relationship, you make your stand now. making it later will be much harder and more painful. 

It sounds like something suddenly changed in their relationship. They were compatible coming from different faiths for a year, but then he demands she convert. My advice is to ask him what changed, or if he has always felt that way.

(Without reading Richard’s answer…)  Run, don’t walk, away from this relationship.  He is playing emotional blackmail with you and you do not have to take that.  If he loves you, he loves you for who you are and what you believe or don’t believe, regardless what he wants to think happens after you both dies.  His demand (basically) that you convert or end the relationship is demeaning, belittling, controlling, and dispassionate.  Is that really who you want to spend the rest of your life with?  If he makes this request now and you convert, even if just to make him happy, the demands will continue in the future.

You deserve more.  I know love is hard to find, but what he is displaying in this request/demand is not love.

This is a deal breaker.

My boyfriend is also a nonpracticing Catholic, and although he would never ask me to convert, it does make him incredibly sad to think about the prospect of me never going to heaven. He doesn’t want to spend eternity without me. If this is what Isabella’s boyfriend meant, I understand. 

I understand as well… but none of that has anything to do with life here on this earth, the here and now, the living with each other and respecting each other NOW. 

 It’s not intolerance if you don’t tolerate those of other and no faiths. It’s Christianity.

 Who wants to spend eternity with anybody? People barely get along for the less than the 100 years we have here. Can you imagine an eternity? He’d better be god’s gift to womankind to warrant the belief in spending an eternity together.

That’s a bit odd since a Catholic belief is that, like the protestants, the only way to heaven is through belief in Jesus, but that belief can be subconcious. In other words, even though you consciously profess atheism, if you do your best to do what is good, true, and virtuous, then you could subconciously be a christian and still go to heaven. Since I doubt you are a murderer, malicious liar, robber, or in any other way seriously messed up, I think the chances are pretty good that you two could see each other in heaven. And that goes for all the other atheists on this website. Hope this cheers him and you up.

God Bless you,
St. William of Gellone

 Yes, I got the feeling there was a certain power play here, rather than a genuine need. Ordering his girlfriend to change religion so she could “be in heaven” with him, rather than asking her what her feelings were, shows a distinct lack of respect. There are plenty of men out there.

I was thinking more of the love the Catholic Church has for atheists. The Pope thinks secularism is a great evil and has compared it to Nazism. Or their love and respect for women and gays. That priest is clearly engaging in false advertising.

 I also suspect it may be his parents. Maybe he is thinking of marriage or his parents are thinking of it and are laying down the law. Still not a situation she should want to be in.

The solution is simple. Ask him the same thing, show them some proof that his god is fake. If he is smart, he will become an atheist; if he isn’t, then dump him. Because then it’s obvious that he doesn’t love you enough and that he is just another religious jerk and you deserve better.  Just remember: stay strong and kick him in the groin.

Is it worth pointing out to him that since he never goes to church, he has effectively been excommunicated “Latae Sententiae” and is hence hell bound according to his own belief system. As an ex-Catholic it can sometimes be enlightening to people to point out exactly what’s being a Catholic means according to the Catholic Church.

 My experience also. There are compromises that you can live with and compromises that are “I wasn’t good enough the way I was and someone wouldn’t love me unless I changed” something important. I don’t know if everyone’s atheism is important to them as mine is to me. Just reading about this could be about anything, not just a conflict of religious beliefs. “But I love him.” And within a year or 3 or 4 or 10 or 20 years, you will realize your self has had to adjust to someone else’s vision for the future and not your own, but you are in deeper by then and it’s harder to leave even a terrible relationship behind the longer you let it. Just look at how deeply you feel after one year and what you are willing to compromise just to hang onto it.

Has a way of wearing people down, and lots of people do it, and lots of people either suffer the long haul or constantly fight until they end it. Lots of people put on a mask and realize they can adjust to being fake for the benefits, but it’s not how you should strive to live, imo. Should it be that hard to be married to someone? Will this really be the last thing he needs you to change to be happy to be with you? Will this adjustment make you bitter and resentful? It sounds like you would not be cheerful about it, and I think people should give cheerfully, and sincerely, not the forced, dutiful kind of cheer I hear about in so many patriarchal relationships. It is good that he put this out there and didn’t expect you to read his mind. Putting an ultimatum on you and see your reaction is manipulative. Asking someone for advice what to do is a good step. Lots of other people make it work because they know ahead of time the other person isn’t going to change their mind. It doesn’t work if one says “no pressure” when they mean it’s still really important to them, and/or the other one says, “wait and see” as if there’s a chance they’ll change their mind when they know they’re really never changing their mind.

And just, I gotta say in general – I hate the early parts of dating where people have to be coy, and then they get attached, and then they start to open up and the other person doesn’t run away, and then want to see if it’s going anywhere for months on end or a year or more, and then right before they decide they can marry someone, they pull out their list of deal-breakers. They’re willing to hang out for a year but they won’t get married because they’re a goddamned dick, you know? Bottom line.

How to word this politely…

This belief right here is one of the main things wrong with religion in general, and one of the main reasons that Atheists tend to get on religion’s case…The claim that Christianity has a monopoly on being good, and that nobody can be good without god. 

It’s especially provocative nowadays, since Christians are the ones out there lying about ponies, treating them as subhuman, ignoring laws when they’re inconvenient, and generally doing the one thing Jesus said not to do: Be a hooting dickhole. 

Your religion is NOT the only way to be a good person. And frankly, it’s really not clear if your religion is a way to be a good person at all. The self-professing Christians who actually show the fruits of being a good person all have empathy, whereas the majority of Christianity today only cares about “Fuck you, I have mine” and tribalism.

Further, you disrespect people when you make arguments like this. You strip them of their choice in one of the most personal and intimate things a human can decide: What they believe, or whether they believe anything at all. 

Lastly, this is a giant slap in the face to people who have suffered harm from Christianity and the people that claim it. To turn around and insist that, not only can they not be good on their own but that the one thing making them good is the thing that hurt them? No. That’s wrong, it’s completely illogical and it’s Fucking daft. 

If you honestly believe this, then more power to you. You have the right to believe whatever you want, just as the rest of us do. But please sincerely think about it.

I agree with several other commenters here. She should dump him. He’s made it pretty clear that the relationship is going to work unless she give in to his demand to change who she is (or pretend to do so). I wouldn’t want to continue dating someone who made that sort of demand to me, and if she has any common sense she shouldn’t either.

It also allows them to weasel out of having to deal with the moral implications of hell. In some ways, I prefer the people who are honest about the fact that they believe most of humanity is headed to hell. At least they own it. Catholics and others who refuse to commit can just pretend like hell isn’t even mentioned in their theology, or at least it’s saved for “really bad” people like serial killers.

Speaking of which, I find it interesting that William seems to think the “murderer, malicious liar, and robber” all deserve to go to hell. IMO, this is the most disgusting part of Christianity, this idea that people deserve infinite punishment for finite crimes. William, are you really fine with robbers and liars being tortured for eternity? Or maybe your hell is so watered down that it’s the vague “separation from God” type?

Brain chemistry is an amazing thing that challenges our perceptions when oxytocin, endorphins and maybe vasopressin start flowing. This is evident in the serious challenge to your established mindset and is likely contributing to your sense of urgency/panic. While your BF is going through the same mental rollercoaster his dedication to religion is tied to similar chemical signals and the argument is is elevated by fear and subconscious need to measure commitment.

Unfortunately the “sense of community” amongst Atheists can rarely compete with the brain chemistry of the flock mentality. Even if it was even odds religions would naturally fade.  

Put shortly you have a tough row to hoe, but hoe it you must.

Drop him.  Sorry for how wracking that is going to be emotionally. Brain chemistry is a bitch for what was once a good reason.

Otherwise you risk becoming one of the thousands of hypocrites who knows the truth and goes through the motions without regard for the damage being done to society and your offspring.

Dear Baby_Raptor,

Thank you for your concerns. I try to live in humility and
so am very thankful when people, such as you, come along to point out a
perceived arrogance in something I have said. I completely agree that if
atheism is true (there is no God) than it would be absurd to talk about
Christians being good people because it would be shown that we’ve been
perpetuating a lie for the past 2000 years! Also, I agree that there are both
many good atheists and bad Christians and so that what a person believes to be
true does not depend how they act. This said, however, let me share what I do
believe and the relevance it has to what I had said before.

1.      
I believe in God who is Good.

2.      
I believe there are people who do more and
better good things in life (“good people”) and there are people who do more and
worse bad things in life (“bad people”). I don’t believe that what a person
professes has anything to do with whether they are good or bad (it all has to
do with what they do!) Therefore, there are bad people who profess Christianity
and good people who profess atheism (and the converse is also true).

3.      
I believe that after death the good people will
live in eternal happiness with God who is Good (Heaven). I believe that the bad
people have the opportunity to share in this joy but will, by their choice,
reject God because his goodness is so pure that He cannot allow any badness
left in the person. Not willing to forsake their bad habits, the bad will
reject God and Heaven and, by their choice, live in absence of God in Heaven
(Hell).

4.      
So far, I think my beliefs have been simple and
just. Even if you don’t believe in God, doesn’t it make sense (given my above
beliefs) about what I have said about Heaven and Hell? But to complicate
things, I do believe the only way to God is through Jesus Christ (a part of the
Christian message). Now, I can either say that this means that good people=
those who profess Christianity, no matter the very terrible things they might
have done, and will therefore go off to Heaven scott free. Also, it would mean
that bad people= all those who never did profess Christianity and all of them
would be going to Hell. This would include all those who lived prior to Jesus’
life as well as the many, many people living in China and India and the world
who are not Christians (possibly for no other reason than they were born in a
certain culture) as well as all atheists, no matter how saintly a life they
might have led. I think what I have described above is thoroughly unjust and in
conflict with my belief in God who is Good (supremely just). To harmonize my
belief in a just, good God and that the only way to God is through Jesus
Christ, I think that belief in Jesus is not just belief in Christianity but in
his message, in brief: that we ought to be sorry and seek forgiveness when we
do bad and instead do good. People can live this message whether they lived in
B.C. live in different cultures, or are atheists. And so, all these people can
live with God in Heaven. But, this will happen after their death when they
encounter that God exists. If you still wish to be an atheist upon that
encounter, then very well; you have the power to exercise your free choice.

Finally, I had meant my initial post as an encouragement to
Lenna’s boyfriend so he wouldn’t be sad. I am very sorry that I upset you so
much. I hope that this explanation, though lengthy, will put your heart at
rest.

God Bless you,

St. William of Gellone

P.S. to Anna: I don’t believe that a murderer, malicious
liar, or robbers deserve to go to
Hell. I believe that all humans have goodness in them and that some of us may
deserve Purgatory before Heaven but that none of us deserve Hell. Nontheless, I
do not believe that a person will go to Heaven against their will. Also, I
believe that what a person does reflects what sort of person he or she is. So,
the above list of people although they have inherent dignity have chosen to bad
and live life unrepentant of that. Meaning, that I think they also will not be
willing to admit their wrongs and to live in holy goodness in Heaven. Hope this
clears things up.

William, you seem to be a kind and just person, and I admire you for that. I also completely agree with you that we are what we do, not what we profess to ourselves or to others.

I think that people are attracted to concepts of God that reflect their own inner character, and so your concept of god is one that is kind and just.

Please understand that some atheists react to Christians whose personal inner character is vain, narcissistic, vindictive, and cruel, and who therefore have concepts of God that are just as nasty. There are plenty of parts of the Bible that support their view.  You seem to be disregarding those parts, just as they are disregarding the parts that you might be using to support your kind and just concept of God.

So it would seem that every Christian is practicing their own custom-made version of Christianity, yet almost no one will admit that. Most Christians will try to claim that their</em custom-made version is the correct, true, and real one.  The character/God concept link becomes a feedback loop, so that for good or ill, their religious ideas perpetuate their character traits, and their character traits perpetuate their religious ideas.

So you can probably understand that from an outsider's vantage point, the bickering and infighting between the versions makes them all seem absurd, even though versions like yours are far more preferable for the good of society.

I hope that your kind and just, quite humanistic way of being, doing in the world continues, with or without the theistic concepts attached.

I think mixed marriages between religious and non-religious are very difficult and especially so if there are children and thus I am not so sure that I would hope they find a way to stay together.