Secular Woman Interviews Atheist Survivor of Aurora Tragedy

I hate to bring up another albeit minor issue in light of this tradegy but medical bills? I mean do they seriously still make you pay if a madman with a gun shoots you?

First off, I’m so glad that Carli’s alive to tell her story. People often assume that atheist easily buckle when faced with such an extreme situation, but this woman shows that instead we look to our fellow humans for help. We give credit to medical staff and police officers when it’s due, rather than thanking “god” and ignoring the ones that risked their lives saving us. I wish her a speedy and fast recovery and I appreciate the courage that it took to come forward with her story.

 That is very disheartening.

Yes!

They’re a business, not a charity. If shootings and killings were extremely rare, they might make exceptions. But they’re not, so just like any other service, you’ve got to pay. They do what they need to help you and bill you later. In general, anyways, people will value their life over money, so that’s not really a problem, but even with insurance, it’s hella expensive.

“… you’ve got to pay.”

No, someone has to pay.  I do no think it is fair that the victims of crime not only contend with recovery from their injuries but are also penalised financially for having the misfortune of being shot.  Here in Australia, and many other parts of the world, medical care is provided at no direct charge to the victim.  We all contribute to the public health care system via taxes because we know at some stage we shall require their services.  This does not prevent one from obtaining private health insurance should you wish to choose another service.

Actually, most of the hospitals have indicated that they will not bill the victims, although they expect the insurance companies to pay. 
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Latest-News-Wires/2012/0725/Hospital-bills-forgiven-for-Colorado-shooting-victims 

She was also very lucky to have fled when she did, as the shooter was only using a shotgun loaded with birdshot. Once he switched to the rifle and pistol, the serious injuries and deaths started. As I recall, she also faulted the other theater patrons  for hiding on the floor, which was somewhat unfair. When lead is in the air, “hit the dirt” is usually good advice. Others trying to escape later were shot with the rifle.

… and so the bigotry and intolerance goes on and on and on and on and…

 I don’t disagree with you.  Maybe her statement immediately after being shot was a little unfair.  Poorly worded.  And yes, there was some victim blaming in there.  Worthy of shit like this?:

 ‘Saved by natural selection?Please bitch, a child died and that’s all your skanky ass can say? I hope he finishes the job.’  and ‘Seriously -you are a horrible fucking person. HOW DARE YOU…’No so much.  Incidently, I found the link to that blog.  http://sinisterdreams.wordpress.com/2012/07/22/carli-and-chriss-story-continued/comment-page-2/#comments

Kinda going off-topic, but so she wants the death penalty for the guy…I don’t know how I feel about it.  I mean, I can’t blame her for being extremely pissed off at the guy, but I’ve always disliked the death penalty. Let’s face it, it’s not going to deter anyone from going on a mass killing spree and in reality its only ‘useful’ purpose is to feed a feeling of personal vendetta.

Unfortunately a lot of the victims will require months if not years of therapy of one kind or another, long after the donations are dried up, hospital ills or no.

I’ve always thought that living it out in jail is the worse punishment. If I were judging people with revenge, it would be life in jail every time. From what I am to understand, life in jail is less expensive for the taxpayer and not an effective deterrent, but to be totally emotional about it (in general), I think living in prison is worse than getting to be ended.

All this drama about who pays the bills and will the donations be enough or not could easily be avoided if there was universal health cares.

And I have the additional feeling that if insurance companies had to pay for the victims, there would suddenly emerge  a strong lobby for stricter gun control…

Unfortunately neither will be an effective deterrent, nor are they in this case effective punishments. As the killer likely will be on some form of medication for the remainder of his natural life, he’ll so be in no state to recognize his crimes for what they are.

I don’t leave the house with out some kind of weapon. My government certainly can’t protect me, and doesn’t even try. They do security theater, like the TSA, and pick up the pieces. Depend on yourself, because there are no fairy tale deities to protect you.

It is a sad state of affairs when you have to rely on donations to pay medical bills. Even with insurance it is ridiculously expensive. I have insurance and I am still afraid I am going to get sick or get into an accident. 🙁

 And if you had been in that theater you’d have been able to kill the guy, right?  Do you not realize that reality isn’t like the movies and the bad guys don’t all just miraculously have bad aim.  What would likely have happened is that you would have been shot and killed the moment you stood still long enough to take aim OR, even more likely, YOU would have murdered an innocent or two in the process.

Sorry, I flagged you before realizing you were quoting comments from another blog.

Fine, I shouldn’t have said, “stand and shoot”.  However, you still have to take time to find a position to fire your weapon.  People are going to be running around and in the case of the theater shooting, it was dark too.  For you to think that having a bunch more folks with guns in the theater would have made this situation not so tragic is just laughable.  No, more innocents would have died and we’d all be discussing about the appropriate charges to bring on people like you. 

Seriously, people can’t even drive cars without being idiots and you want an armed society??

 Honest mistake.  Thanks for the heads up.

Yeah, really. And then you actually go to use your insurance, and come find, “We don’t cover that.” -_-;

Go back to Madagascar.

Coming from the very same people who think their god saved some people and let others die

You’re so right.  Their argument of “It’s for my protection” always makes me laugh.  If you’re in your home and an intruder comes in, unless you have that gun loaded and right beside you (which you shouldn’t) you have no chance of shooting an intruder while you find your gun, find the key to the ammo box and load it… blah blah.

If you’re in a public place, especially a dark one like a theater, when those bullets start flying you are going to be so disoriented and scared you won’t know which way is up.

Even if all patrons had been armed, the chance of them hitting the shooter in a dark, crowded theater filled with smoke rather than other patrons is slim. Friendly fire is a real thing, which occurs in broad daylight, by well trained soldiers, because of the panic of battle. You would seriously advise more shootings to solve the problem, rather than less?

And yes, before you ask, I come from a family military background, and learned to shoot at an early age, from NRA parents. As if that’s the only thing which wouldn’t invalidate my argument. 

never mind that if other people have guns there will most likely be panic fire all over the place. CS gas makes it really hard to see and concentrate on anything but breathing, the place is dark, and people are running all over the place… should I also mention over-penetration of rounds hitting someone behind the target, or that the shooter may be wearing body armor, or that unlike movies and TV, a person doesn’t always fall dead from one bullet wound?

I can certainly hope that society doesn’t go the NRA route of everyone just carrying around a weapon and whipping it out as they choose.

 Aaron, most Americans DO have health insurance. Google “percent of Americans without health insurance” and you will find out that:

49.9 million — The number of uninsured Americans in 2010. That’s 16.3% of the total population.

To stay on topic though, I hope some of the victims’ medical bills are “forgiven” by the health care providers.

And kudos to Carli Richards for thanking the right people and leaving an imaginary God out of it!

 One thing everyone who can afford it should do, if they don’t have insurance: Get private major medical coverage. It’s usually not super-expensive – cost of your internet or cell phone bill per month – and it will keep you out of bankruptcy in the event of a medical emergency.

That said, we should have a public healthcare option for people who can not afford private insurance or who do not get it through their employer. I don’t understand why so many people are against that in this country.

And most Americans that experience catastrophic illness or injury will still end up bankrupt despite having insurance because we have caps and a whole load of other garbage. Medical debt is still the single biggest reason stated for bankruptcy. We also pay more out of pocket average for our medical care, this includes the premiums, than other countries’ citizens do in taxes for their care. It is just stupid that we don’t have this. Everyone gets sick, everyone dies, most people have kids, it’s obviously a public problem not an individual one.

I would also like to point out that not only do you have to pay but if you CAN’T pay for any further treatment that is not immediately life-saving, no one HAS to treat you. Which means all the people who need physical therapy now, or long term care in the case of at least one woman, are screwed. They have to either get on SSDI and hope it covers the bills or pay out of pocket. A lot of Americans think that if they go to the doctor or hospital for non-emergent care that they have to treat you but nope! They can wait until it gets to the point of death and then they’re legally obligated to jump in. So this actually includes crap like cancer. Because if it is not immediately life-threatening and you can’t pay the bill for treatment, well, you get to wait until it is and you’re guaranteed to die.

Why not?

She also got a lot of hate for attributing her survival to her amazing smarts and instincts and not at all to the fact that she was fortunate to be sitting in an isle seat next to an exit on the opposite side of the theater from the gunman (and still managed to get shot), and then BLAMES the people who didn’t make it out as fast as she did by accusing them of being lazy, stupid and just “laying down and kissing their asses goodbye”. To say she was self-important and insensitive would be an understatement.

The cruel and unusual punishment is not the fault of the prison, the system, or the government. The drugs, violence, and rape is the fault of the prisoners, not the government.

in america we fight over free healthcare.  go us….

You have got to be kidding me… So the systemic racism, for-profit prison system and corruption like buying judges, rape and abuse by GUARDS AND OFFICIALS is all just the prisoners’ faults? So it’s a prisoner’s fault if a guard rapes them? Because that happens too which I guess you are unaware of or choosing to ignore. It’s a prisoner’s fault if a guard beats them? Because beating rehabilitates? It’s the prisoner’s fault we choose solitary confinement which has been proven over and over to be mentally damaging making someone worse than when they went in? We AREN’T functioning in a racist system? Refusal of guards to protect prisoners from known rapists in the system? That’s also the prisoner’s fault. Or how about ridiculous sentences for non-violent drug crimes (like possession of weed) is also the prisoners’ faults.

I’ve run out of sarcasm for the moment but really dude, read up. It is the fault of the prison system and the government. Same way when cops shoot 40 bullets at someone who’s unarmed, that’s a result of shitty training and a bad system. Or the fact that 40% of prisoners are black despite being about 12% of the population, that’s the system. I’m not even going to reply after this one because I’m sure if you do reply it’s going to be full of more ignorance that I do not have the ability to combat because at that point it’s a choice to not know any better or do any research on your part. 

 Er, no. Drugs getting in is just as much the guards fault as prisoners getting out would be.

I’m not in the NRA and I’ve never owned a gun, but to the best of my understanding, the idea of it is that if more people had guns, gun-shooting (and many other) criminals would be deterred by the knowledge they could be shot at. Shooting at unarmed people is “safe” for the criminal in this way. Attempting to shoot at armed people, or threatening to harm them, like in an assault or a mugging, would be deadly and so, theoretically, commit fewer crimes. Violently insane people with an aptitude for patience and planning would still be armored and armed with an unusual amount of weapons, but theoretically an armed society would have fewer crimes committed and little to no actual defense by a weapon because people theoretically behave better and think through the consequences of their actions to assess whether it’s worth it.

I think this is how it operates in the South with “gun culture,” an armed society is a polite society, if you know everyone is carrying, you’re not much going to risk so much as call someone an asshole for cutting you off in traffic, and maybe the guy doesn’t even cut you off because he assumes you’re armed and might be sensitive also. I’ve always lived in the north, and people are rude because nobody’s going to shoot them probably, but a criminal with a weapon would have a higher likelihood of escaping unharmed with his objection met if he targets an unarmed population. Everything changes after the police get there. Last year, an older guy I knew of (we crossed paths at the gas station sometimes) was murdered in his apartment after allegedly parking in someone else’s spot at his apartment complex, and the shooter barricaded himself inside for a couple hours before the police got him to come out. Obviously, sometimes the police have to shoot the perpetrator and sometimes the perp shoots himself because it’s the only way out.

I’m not sure any of this applies to Holmes. Just based on what I heard, he had some fixation on the Batman movie series, he planned and bided his time until its premier, and stocked up on weapons and armor to a point where he wouldn’t be worried about if someone in the theater had a pistol. And yeah, in this situation, the police apprehended him alive. I agree with you that, whenever possible, criminals should have their day in court. I don’t like the idea of a vigilante society where ordinary citizens with guns get to make those calls, where so often people just talking or posting can’t be relied on to have the overall best judgment. Would someone be able to shoot someone they thought was putting on a pre-show gimmick as part of the premier? This just makes me think if there is in the future someone walking in the door late, he might get shot. No, I’m sorry for the 12 who died and the 58 injured, and the traumatized, but this type of situation happens rarely, that it’s not worth a vigilante society where someone pulls the trigger too early just because they thought they were saving the day. I’m not accusing all gun owners of this mentality, just that arming everyone will necessarily include people with this mentality. I don’t trust every joe blow with a gun any more than James Holmes, since it crosses over with other topics and people are capable of having such shitty hateful attitudes. Who knows why anyone would pull a gun out or what they personally are threatened by.

To contrast 12 murder victims here, firearm homicides account for about 65-70% of all murders. I can’t find the page on CDC where I recently read this. Over 11,000 homicides were committed by firearm in the US in, I think, 2008 or 2009. This kind of massacre is rare and dying from it is rare. I realize another massacre of this style has been recently committed in the Sikh temple in Wisconsin, and has gotten much less air time but that doesn’t mean these things are happening every week or two around the US. They are stunning because they almost never happen. Another reason I don’t think it’s necessary to carry guns. To save 10 people out of 12? To accidentally fire on innocent fleeing bystanders? The murderer is caught alive and 12 people died. That’s 12 more than should have died, but it’s a very small number to statistically reason gun-carrying would have prevented it or reduced the deaths by taking out the gunman, not when it almost never happens but people will be hasty about who is a threat and who is just coming back from the bathroom.

 See my reply to Parth. In the Colorado prison system, he would almost certainly never be let out of Ad-Seg, which is essentially solitary confinement. A lifetime of solitary confinement is about the worst punishment I can possibly imagine. If suffering is the goal, life without parole would be the better option by far.

Well, we ARE a majority rabidly christian nation, after all. Fuck the sick, the poor, the downtrodden.

Well it has saved me before.  And without any harm to me or the intruder; all it took was to point it.  And I guess i did yell a bit too..

I don’t know of anyone who keeps a gun for protection that keeps it in a place where you’d need to find it, find ammo, and then load it. 

Fortunately, i can keep a gun next to my bed loaded and out of sight and it will never get up on it’s own and hurt anyone.  (I live by myself btw)

As for the theater scenario, I don’t know if it would’ve helped or not, but I think it’s a stretch for anyone to say it would’ve done more harm than good.

 This is not true. About 60% of bankruptcies in the US are caused by medical bills, and 78% of those are people who had insurance.

Well said, this stood out to me too when I read it.

Kudos for not giving god credit, and appreciating your army training, but to attack the dead was downright sick.

She should be ashamed.

Except she knew exactly why she survived – she had army training and recognised tear gas, was physically fit enough to run away quickly due to her years in the army and the luck to be in the seats they were in.

She recognised all of that and yet still called those who did not escape “lazy”.

She knew exactly why she escaped and others didnt yet still attacked the dead who didnt have her advantage in a sickening and pathetic way.

She came off really badly in some of those passages and she should be ashamed of some of what she said.

yeah, at least on internet atheism could thrive, but in society it’s totaly the oposite. To bad that the atheist comunity couldn’t be allowed to say what it thinks is right, yes thinks not beleives.

it’s not FREE healthcare. We are fighting over making people PAY for healthcare and fining those who can’t afford it or make enough to not need it. EVERYONE would be all for FREE healthcare. For example.. when you get dental insurance.. the lowest plan covers silver caps.. if you are into silver teeth.. cool.. otherwise you are still going to pay 500- 700 dollars for a white one because the white ones aren’t covered. In other words you are only covered for what they say you are covered for. If you want white ones to be covered you need to pay more for a better plan. Guess what, better plans are more expensive. HEALTH CARE WORKS THE SAME WAY. Nobody is getting anything for free

Shouldn’t the theater have some sort of insurance for this shit? 

I dont quite understand you. I am a Christian, and my church..and countless others give a large portion of their tithes and offerings to missions which help the poor, sick and downtrodden.   Maybe its the NON Christians that need to help the poor, sick and downtrodden a little more?  Just an observation.

Only she knows what she said and thought during this event. We have no idea other than her word.  Lets be clear.

We also like to kill innocent civilians in other countries …whats new.

I have never been more alarmed by Walt Whitman 

 Go cook some more meth, Walt. Then  go buy some gold ones.

 and you have 7 % of our population. we could probably do it if we only had to insure manhattan and its metro area, which would be the same size population

Nothing she said had anything to do with her surviving. 

I actually laughed at this.

 >in america we fight over free healthcare

And still seem to lose by getting a Corporate friendly version.

If christians hated atheists as much as you hate them.. you’d b extinct.

You tried that during the inquisition. Strangely, some people are born with the ability to recognise fantasies, so disbelief in the Christian mythology continues.

That’s what makes it corporate-friendly; the fact that it’s not free. It’s just another example of how extreme American capitalism is. Now they can order us to purchase products and services.

so brave

Except medical insurance plans are now mandated to cover such emergencies and additional rehabilitation, with ACA.  I guess you just prefer insurance companies that can drop you the minute you get sick or delay treatment until you just die.  I mean seriously, why are you arguing for the rights of insurance companies?  Have you even read the ACA?  Apparently not, otherwise you would know that insurance companies are now mandated to cover these types of emergencies and they are mandated to keep you covered even if you had a pre-existing condition (that they likely just made up).  

Unlike the health care debate going on between these fine folks here<– sarcasm.. I wanna commend Carli on her strength and courage! As a Christian, obviously my beliefs arent the same, but the appreciation for the emergency and medical professionals is really what the topic is here. This moving article about the survivor of such a horrific tragedy amd you morons talk about healthcare.. Get well Carli!!

Agreed, I think it shows just how obsessed we are to make sure punishment is dealt, even to the wrong person…as long as someone got punished

Not quite sure where you’re going with all your notes. Here’s the thing: He called me a dumbass for supporting a woman who thanked the appropriate personnel and her evolved survival instinct for helping her live through an attack on her life.

Why do I get called a dumbass for that? Because I’m an atheist. So at the risk of sounding like a first grader, “he started it”.

I have also just been called a dolt by someone else, because I dared to talk back to the guy who called me a dumbass.

I am not hate-filled and I’m not obsessed with religion or my lack of religion. I am however, allowed to defend myself against an unprovoked attack. Which is what walt and fakeemail just did to me.

Here’s another thing, unlike some religious people who claim to love everyone, I am not a hypocrite. I don’t love everyone. I do hate some people. Now, technically I don’t hate walt or fakeemail – I don’t even know them. But I’m pretty sure I don’t like them either.

Duly noted?