Tennessee School Officials Post Ten Commandments in County Schools

We’ve certainly taken more than two of our laws from the Ten Commandments. Perjury (bearing false witness) is illegal. And under the U.S. Military Code, adultery is illegal. Some states, such as my own Indiana, have blue laws (You can’t buy package booze or beer on Sunday) that clearly are intended to honor the sabbath. The blue laws are unconstitutional, in my opinion, but they’re there. But I agree with your general point that the Decalogue doesn’t belong in public schools.

Well, then I want the Magna Carta and the Code of Hammurabi up in the halls, too.  Give me a sec and I’ll think of some more historical documents.

 Quoting Rains “We just want our kids to know they can believe the way we want to believe…”That says it, the kids can believe what we want them to believe.

This issue is always an interesting one.  I find myself actually agreeing with those who don’t think the ten commandments should be in our school, and yet I find myself disagreeing with most of the reasons they give.  The fundamentalist flavored contempt and sneering at those religious folks who may disagree, in addition to some pretty liberal spins on the history of the country’s foundations, sometimes makes me second guess my thought that they shouldn’t be displayed. 

Being an atheist and a resident of Knoxville, TN, this is upsetting. There is no place for religious propaganda in any school in this country regardless of level.

Besides having an exceptionally scant bookshelf, Principle Rains seems to have some kind of unhealthy eagle fetish too. I don’t mean any insult to eagles, but maybe that’s simply sub-consciously indicative of his bird-brain mindset?

Considering that every catholic priest, and lots of other christians, disobey the 2nd. commandment as part of their religion, this is surely the stupidest thing ever.
What if the kids actually read these commandments and start thinking, and asking questions?
Such as: “why are you wearing a graven image around your neck and why do you bow before the graven image above  the alter?”

Hey, that statement is offensive to Avian-Americans. Birds are much smarter than this guy!

In a warehouse in Washington. Didn’t you watch that great documentary, Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the Lost Ark?

They want historical documents?  They can take that down and put up the Bill of Rights.

I am all for kids learning about religion…but I remember going to church when I was little and being scared to death that I was a bad person and a constant sinner…all at the age of 8. How can kids so young NOT see these commandments as confusing?

Just as when I was young, these kids are going to be made to feel bad about what goes on in their lives and whether or not something they did or said was bad. Sure, teach them the basics, but stop shoving this down their throats.

“At least half of the Commandments have absolutely no business in a public school, much less an elementary school.”

So true.

 Nope.  Bearing false witness is only illegal in very isolated circumstances (like the one you mentioned).  I can go around lying all day long if I want to… it may show I can’t be trusted, but it won’t land me in jail. And again, adultery is only illegal in isolated circumstances.  Thankfully, the booze ban on Sundays is being lifted all around the US (I can now buy a bottle of wine at 11 am when I do my Sunday morning shopping). 

To say that these laws are “taken from the Ten Commandments” is a bit misleading too.  Cultures that have never even heard of the 10C manage to realize all on their own that killing and stealing are big no-nos.

 Yeah, that always perplexed me as a kid, having been raised in the Catholic Church.  I couldn’t figure out the distinction between “worshiping graven images” and all of those statues of Jesus on the crucifix, or dead in Mary’s arms.  Not too mention, how fucking morbid it all is!

And as for this whole “it’s an historical document” argument the religious zealots love to use, what a load of crap.  They don’t give a shit if it’s historical or not… that’s just their cynical end run around the blatant violation of constitutional freedom of/from religion. 

What would be your reasons, if they differ from the ones being given?

Many of you seem to be missing the point here. Buddha and the Code of Hammurabi had absolutely nothing to do with the founding of this country. Everyone knows that the Ten Commandments, on the other hand, had a profound influence on the thinking of the Founding Fathers and the documents they scribed. That’s why the Constitution says we must worship no other God before Yahweh, and that we can’t make graven images, and that we must do no work on the Sabbath, and–
Oh, wait, the Constitution doesn’t say any of those things? Then I guess I don’t really know WHAT the point is *scratches head*.

Because it does represent one of many beliefs and world views that culminated in the founding of our nation.  I have no problem with them being displayed somewhere in a school, as long as they are with other writings, including writings that may repudiate them, if those writings are also foundational to our past.  They are a part of our collective cultural heritage, like it or no.  That’s not to say I want them enshrined in our schools, or put up in a way that suggests ‘this is the real truth kids.’  Of course not.  That would be a flagrant violation of the Constitution.  But I’m becoming increasingly uncomfortable with the push to ‘eliminate’.  That’s what the Communists did, and it was a mark of the USSR and other Communist regimes when I was a youngster, that they sought to pull and banish things seen as inappropriate to the State’s wishes.  No, I would see them bundled with a collection of writings that point to the overall trajectory of Western Civilization, but no more.  Denigrating those who see value in them, or believing that the Founding Fathers (TM) were all a bunch of closet atheists who would vote for liberal Democrats if they were alive today, is no different than 6 day creationists explaining that science proves what they believe, if you ignore all the other evidence that doesn’t. 

I’ll say it again: it can’t be a “historical” document, unless thee was an ORIGINAL document (of historical significance). Since no part of the legendary commandments exists, no first-person accounts exist, no depictions exist (prior to the third century or so), this is NOT a “historical document.”

The vast majority may have been religious, though the minority you’re speaking of here includes some of the most prominent thinkers and shapers, but the vast majority did supported freedom of religion, and codified -that- into the laws where they could have insisted on Christian nation.  I agree that some of the responses can be sneering, but a lot of them come from bad experiences growing up or living in areas where Christianity is the dominant religion to the point that one feels constantly bullied and belittled not being Christian, or not being part of the prominent sect, and that’s mostly what I want to not happen here.  Putting the commandments up in schools doesn’t do much for the majority of students, who, in a state like Tennessee, are already Christian, but taking them down does give a little breathing room and a little respect to the minority of students who aren’t Christian.  I’m not demanding that anyone have a star on any belly: I’m demanding that if I have kids, I choose the path of their religious education.  Not the school, not the principal, and not the society.  I choose what they learn as children in the hopes of best preparing them to become capable of deciding what to believe for themselves.

They’re perfectly legal as part of that bundle, though.  All of these arguments aren’t about the Commandments being taught in historical context, with documents from other religions.  It’s about them being hung up in every single classroom in the school, out of context, as though they were somehow as directly relevant to the founding -as- the Virginia Statutes for Religious Freedom.  I don’t object to anyone learning about this in historical context–I took a religion class in a public high school and was happy to learn about a variety of different religions–but I do object to them being held up for the aim of promoting Judeo-Christianity as a religion rather than as part of history.

As long as the taxpayers fund the legal defense for these school officials and politicians, they will continue to break the law. I’m not a lawyer but is there a way to file civil suits against these individuals? Isn’t there a provision when an official is acting in a malice manner that they lose any protection by the agency or institution they represent?

True, to a point.  But I want the documents of our heritage on display, all of them.  And heck, let’s have the various versions of the ten commandments up, too.  I’m all for exposing kids to the information and letting them conclude what they will.  As for treatment, I’m sure that it has been bad, and it’s probably been bad in different areas.  Wherever something becomes a majority, the minority usually suffers.  But two wrongs after all.  I certainly wouldn’t want schools teaching religion.  Given the job that they are doing teaching anything else today, that’s one topic that doesn’t need put onto the list of things mangled by the US education system. 

Oh, and certainly some of the founders we focus on were brilliant, but many were, and even those few had a great variety of ideals about religion and its influence.  What they all agreed on was religious liberty. 

Better tell that to the supreme court so they can remove the ten commandments from the supreme court building

But I suppose you are okay with homosexual propaganda in public schools. Like in Massachusetts where they passed out how to be queer in the 21 st century to middle school and high school kids.

I couldn’t agree more.  I don’t think they should be held up above any other beliefs or documents, but I don’t think they should be denied or shoved outside of the educational establishment, simply because of the religions attached to them. 

Do you ever post anything that isn’t hyperbole?

Isilzha,  I didn’t say if we take religion out of public schools society will collapse.  I said if we begin taking things like religion out of public schools, it won’t be long before we’re taking it out of other places.  And then, if history has anything at all to teach us, it won’t be long before other things begin to be taken out.  If there’s one thing history has taught us, it’s that ‘removing things’ for a society is like eating peanuts – once you start, you just can’t stop.

Top. Men.

In a public school, there should be no religious displays — especially if you’re only displaying one particular religion’s  artifacts. 

Wonder why Pastor Rains can’t put himself in the shoes of non-Christian students who attend his school.  Can he imagine how alienated and outcast they must feel with all these religious displays being pushed down their throats?  Would he be comfortable in displaying the religious teachings of non-Christian groups?  He needs to be educated about the First Amendment and probably will learn something when he loses in court.

Let me paraphrase: As far as I’m concerned, you can do what I want you to do.
youdontsay.jpg

“Expose them to the information” in a history or comparative religion class, not by posting religious documents all over the school walls. What a school posts on its walls sends a message of what they think the students should believe. A public school has no business dictating any religious sensibilities children should subscribe to. That is their parents’ job and if they want that to be a part of their school day, they should send them to a private school that is in line with their beliefs.

I also don’t get the arguments on either side of how religious the founding fathers were or were not. Their personal religious beliefs are entirely irrelevant to the kind of government they set up.

Interesting points.  I wonder if what constituted “religious thought” 200 years ago is the same as it is today.  I look at how the Republican Party has mutated in just 30 years, and am stunned.  The particular mix of philosophy and deism that our founding fathers had would be considered flaming liberal now, particularly the bit about the American Revolution, which specifically did not “submit to those appointed by God over you.”

On another note, I don’t see anyone making “historical artifacts” arguments for Zeus or Odin or Osiris, so if Christianity simply became another mythology, so what?  I don’t see it happening in the next 200 years, but it really is no more special than any other  disenfranchised belief system that a civilization once embraced.  The only real philosophy that has stood the test of time and cultures is “Do unto others…”  The rest are just trying to cash in on the gullible.

Nice Seuss reference!

You don’t see enough Sneetches references these days. 🙂

I’ve seen this claim several times and I’ve yet to see anyone include a citation with it.

Wonder why Pastor Rains can’t put himself in the shoes of non-Christian students who attend his school.

Privilege is a serious impediment to empathy.

“We just want our kids to know they can believe the way we want to believe and know that we were offended when they are taken down.”
Hate to break it to ya dude, but nobody gives a rat’s ass if you were offended when your illegal religious displays were taken down. If you’re the kind of person who would get butthurt over not being allowed to indoctrinate small children, you have no business at all teaching. None. You’re not fit to. 

Might want to check your snark meter. At least, I hope. 

Wait, let me get this straight. If I complain because the 10 commandments are up, then I should just shut up and ignore it if it bothers me. But if they’re taken down and a Christian is offended by an *absence* of something that has no business there in the first place, then it’s lawsuit time.

I . . . see.

Also, I like to think the “children can think as we think” line was a Freudian slip. He meant to say the children can think what they want (because we all know it’s SO hard to come out as Christian in this country),  but accidentally said what he meant, which was that they are encouraging the children to think like Christians.

Mein Kampf qualifies as historical too, right? Can they have Birth of a Nation playing on screens in the halls? 

Homosexuality is not a religion and therefore irrelevant from this discussion.

Search little black book Queer in the 21st century and you will find multiple sites with it. Here is only one:

http://Www.massresistance.org/docs/issues/black_book/black_book_inside.html.

Not least because the actual commandments themselves (i.e. the text thereof) appear exactly nowhere.

Hmmm. I don’t see the Tennessee legislature’s favorite commandment which states:
Thou shall not teach science in the science classroom.

Haha. This is coming fom the same people who called a banner hanging in a school propaganda and call the ten commandments displayed in a school propaganda. That is hilarious.

Crom, I have never prayed to you before. I have no tongue for it. No one, not even you, will remember if we were good men or bad. Why we fought, or why we died. All that matters is that two stood against many. That’s what’s important! Valor pleases you, Crom… so grant me one request. Grant me revenge! And if you do not listen, then to HELL with you!

The Smokies are awesome though.

Don’t forget a prayer to the Great Spaghetti Monster on pasta day!

“Freedom of religion means the right to practice the religion of your choosing and not one dictated by the state.”

…and you still don’t understand how posting the 10 Commandments in a public school, paid for by the taxpayer and operated by the government discriminates against evry American of a different or no faith?

Come on Robert, you consistently contradict yourself in these threads, you consistently get your ass kicked by people who point out your contradictions, and yet you still come back for more?

In the name of your lord, please stop trolling here.

I understand the legal argument. That smit the issue. Athiests screaming about relgious elements in school base the harm on the kids feeling excluded and be subjected to religious propaganda. You know that .

As for the example of the gay agenda to indoctrinate school children, I gave just one example. Why in the world was the mass. Department of education teaming up with that organization at all to spread this to school children?

If you want other examples there are plenty, but it is flat out a lie that the gay agenda is to teach homosexuality in school. For example elementary school children being read a book about two kings getting married. When a father asked for his son to be allowed to opt out he was told no and actually arrested. That happened in mass. in 2005. So your idea that this one example was assumed by you to be voluntary doesn’t change the point.

My ass is just fine thank you. I don’t post here thinking any of you would agree, you are all too intolerant, bigoted and closed minded to do that. But I will point out the inconsistency and hypocrisy when I see it.

Your comment has nothing to do with my post. Atheists like tcc and cammorris like to try to say that freedom of religion only means freedom to believe and not to practice. I was pointing out that this was wrong. As for the ten commandments in a school be constitutional it is black and white. It can be allowed if it meets the constitutional test.

Atheists who talk about how religious propaganda doesn’t belong in schools do so on the basis of the Establishment Clause. This sounds like another one of those “atheist myths” you tout that virtually no atheist believes.

As for why the MA DoE would team up with GLSEN, the key word in the initialism is “Education.” If there is a need for safe sex education materials, then it makes sense for such a collaboration. I know you’d rather tell gay and lesbian kids that they’re wicked and sinful and should turn from their evil ways, but we’re talking about reality here. Silence on this issue hurts LGBT individuals, which the MA DoE probably cares about even if you don’t.

And things like “King & King” are such a tempest in a teapot. That’s not gay advocacy; it’s the recognition that gay people exist, including some of these children’s own parents.

I will agree with one thing you said, though:

it is flat out a lie that the gay agenda is to teach homosexuality in school.

(Although I suspect that was just a Freudian slip.)

Jamestown, Tn????  Really??  Lmao that place is so small if you sneeze you missed it!!!!  

So…?  You mean like Zoroastroism?  Wow, I really miss that one.  Or Aztec and Mayan worship services?  Weren’t the Egyptian gods around longer than 2000 years, and nobody cares much anymore.  Why, precisely is Christianity any different?

Taking Gods name in vane there Lee?? Great God fearing person u r!!! And by the way , exactly which Bible is the definitive one? I’m sure the Bible I read is not quite the same as yours! What makes the Christian Bible the absolute? If I don’t believe in the New Testament, I suppose that makes me as bad as the Athiests posting here too huh?

Are you sure this is an atheist site? It seems more like a anti-Christian site to me.

“{Because it does represent one of many beliefs and world views that culminated in the founding of our nation.  I have no problem with them being displayed somewhere in a school, as long as they are with other writings, including writings that may repudiate them, if those writings are also foundational to our past.”

I agree that these should be in schools. In the library. In books.
Most schools have them.

You are only clinging to the last vestiges of your silly beliefs.

I call this a “Jobs bill for lawyers”.  Tomorrow’s forecast……lawsuits.