More Christian Wisdom on Why the Aurora Shooting Occured…

So, previously “God’s judgement” was to flood the entire world and kill everybody except one family.

And now he kills 12 people in a theater.

With all due respect, what a fucking weak god.

 Of course you can prove it wasn’t the hand of God.  The undetectable elf farting invisible rainbows who lives outside my window told me it wasn’t the hand of God — and that proves it.

I’m always amazed at how ham-handed their god is. Apparently he flings some smiting down without regard to where it lands. If god is displeased with homosexuals, why not a bolt of lighting or two at a gay pride march?
Abortion is an abomination? You’d think god could figure out a way to bring a rain of frogs onto abortion clinics.
No, he causes a bunch of people at a movie….wait…maybe he’s just mad at Batman.

It’s tough to read the “mysterious” ways.

Face it! You atheists never listen to Jeebus.  You weren’t listening in 2001 when he sent Bin Laden to get your attention.  You weren’t listening 2005 when he sent hurricane Katrina to get your attention.  You weren’t listening in 2008 when he crashed the economy to get your attention.  And you’re not listening now when he has sent a shooter to get your attention.  Just what the hell does it take for Jeebus to get your attention?  How obvious must he be?

Two R’s in “Occurred.” Sorry.

A very nice basket of cherries you picked there.

Well said. So tired of baby boomers and “the greatest generation” telling us how much better it was 50 years ago, acting as if our generation spawned from thin air and werent influenced by their selfish fuck ups. When a high percentage of a country, to include the highest levels of government, believe that it ia perfectly justified to not allow an entire race to drink from the same water fountain or eat at a restaurant with you, you forfeit your ability to discuss the topic of moral degridation nowadays

I don’t dismiss these . . . persons as representative of the Christian population at large. I think they do represent the majority of the Christian population at large.

In an earlier article there was a huge fuss over 2nd Amendment rights, but I have to agree with poster Summer Seale, who wrote what I think was the most perceptive comment so far on the shootings under that article: “But I’ve learned it’s not the number of guns around me, but the mentality of the people around me.”

There are plenty of firearms up here in Canada, although of course we have no Concealed Carry and handguns are heavily restricted – many rules surrounding their possession, transport, and use. No fully automatic weapons either, but we have a horde of sporting rifles and shotguns. We also have a MUCH lower rate of murders involving firearms than the U.S.

I would argue that the difference is a matter of *culture*. In the U.S., ownership of firearms has always been seen as a right, and from what I understand of the 2nd Amendment, said ownership was encouraged because of the deep distrust the early Colonials had for government, particularly the British Monarchy. The U.S. was established by revolution, under the auspices of “Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.” Much is placed on individual liberty in the American psyche, and firearms do play some role in that – owning a gun says “I can defend myself against people who might try to take away my liberties, people with guns, people who serve a Government I don’t agree with.” Not so in Canada, where we established our nation under the auspices of “Peace, Order and Good Government.” Canadians historically wanted, in fact DESIRED, government. Distrust of such was nearly non-existent. The fabric of the Canadian psyche was woven by reliance on a system that assumed Government was Good, and at worst Neutral. And so it went from there.

But the entire “we distrust Government so we need guns” motivator has over time become complete bullshit in the U.S., PARTICULARLY with the Right Wing, who are now desirous of strong Authoritarianism. So on the one hand they’ll recite the importance of individual Liberty, but on the other, more honest hand they’ll do their best to vote in a government that undermines those individual rights and liberties that have the most to do with security of the person, in body and mind.

And through it all, there runs a thread in the U.S. that gun ownership isn’t just a right, but a VIRTUE. Owning one makes you your own (wo)man, because you can protect yourself, your family and those you care for, with no reliance on an untrustworthy government. But when you put that against the present-day context of authoritarian values, it throws the hidden cognitive dissonance into sharp relief.

Here’s a quote from Christian R.C. Sproul (from the 180 movie FB page):

“Today a man walked into an Orlando office where he brutally murdered 20 babies, wounding the moms. The police made sure he was not disturbed.”- R.C. Sproul Jr 

“Those who rationalize that bad things happen because god gave man free will automatically forfeit the right to suggest that everything happens according to god’s plan.”– Anonymous.” So this tragedy is gods plan to punish us for not fearing him, so he forced a man to use his free will to kill everyone so we through fear use our free will to adore him? The cognitive dissonance is so dramatic I have trouble forming  an point without being lost in it. Let’s blame the shooter for doing what he did.

 Oh, right, I get it now! I’m pretty sure that 6 yo girl in the crowd not only had an abortion, but was also marching for gay rights and never went to church in her life. And voted Obama, of course. She clearly had that coming. Duh, I’m *so* stupid for not seeing this earlier! *headdesk*

This is pretty minor, I know, but… I can’t believe Jackson called it “the internets” unironically.

I seriously doubt that they represent a majority. But I don’t think they are quite as far on the fringe as some people like to think they are.

Great way to put it!  I look at them as a minority, but a  large and concentrated minority. They vote, and they do so in droves.

You or I might use hysterical, exaggerated rhetoric like this to emphasise a point.  I hope such people as this are simply trying to do the same thing, but I just can’t shake the disquieting notion that some of them are merely describing the world as they actually perceive it.

The violent tragedy in Aurora has many sources and to select one would be simplistic.  However, it is certainly correct to put some blame on America’s obsession with guns and our very strange attitude that all people should have one or more.

I cannot help but wonder what would have occurred if this young man could not have gotten (legally) an assault rifle and 6000 rounds of ammunition.   I remember Charleton Heston’s comment about taking his gun from his cold dead hands.  I wish that he could have had even a tiny bit of the wisdom that his character Moses had.

I pray daily that America will learn that we need to learn from Jesus and lay down our arms and approach the lost and lonely with compassion.  Violence of this type might not disappear but it would surely diminish.

Matthew Anderson D.Min.

 Killing a 6 year old girl was part of God’s plan?

Hemant,  Maybe you should reconsider your article titled “Fundamentalist Mormon Sect Kills a Kitten to Send Message to Former Member” considering you don’t want atheists to be blamed for things there is no evidence they are responsible for.     I thought that was pretty careless how you just accepted that claim at face value.   If you are against demonization then please be consistent.   There is actually no evidence that anyone purposely put that cat in the cement, and plenty of evidence it was a work site accident.  

So why aren’t there shootings like this in atheist/secular countries (i.e., Scandinavia/Western Europe)? Apart from the Brievik (sp) incident in Norway, I haven’t heard that countries that are more secular are prone to violent outbursts like what we have here in the US.

That decline is coming with a decline in mainstream religion, too.

To what do you attribute this mass murder? It is a mystery to me.

Of course guns aren’t the reason for the killing, but are you seriously suggesting they have nothing to do with it? I don’t know about you, but at the very least the death toll would have been lowered if this psychopath didn’t have access to fully automatic, or semi-automatic, weapons. Outlawing guns wouldn’t stop shootings but it would certainly lower the amount of shootings.

I become more enraged at these people all of the time. Now it is not just the degradation of morality in society to blame. I could ALMOST excuse that argument because you could say something like – well, society is becoming less moral and more tolerant of violence. That naturally leads to more sociopaths committing acts of this kind. 
No, now it is god being a dick  and judging society through random acts of human violence, or at least not stopping them, because people are less Christian-y. And to top it all off, they are blaming education producing smart people who can act in the capacity of teachers, professors, lawyers and other roles. Clearly, we are too smart for god’s liking, so he better judge us with violence.
WTF?
I am so sick of this concept that education is evil. 

He only has to be more obvious than Odin.

Islam is oppressive, patriarchal bullshit, just like Christianity and Judasm.

Yeah, i’m pretty sure somwhere in the bible Jebus appears wielding a sword and cutting heads.

Chris, I am giving you the benefit of the doubt when you say that you want to outlaw guns. I am assuming that you mean automatic and semi-automatic weapons.  Your last sentence was too general.

Repealing the second amendment and outlawing all firearms including hand guns and hunting rifles would not work.  There are over 300 million firearms in the U.S. , and violent criminals don’t give a damn about gun laws. We have the right as individuals to protect our families and we cannot always rely on the cops to be there to protect us. 

Butbutbut… God’s protection left Europe ages ago. See, it’s not the mere absence of God’s protection that causes these disasters, it’s the magnitude of the derivative with respect to time.

“Everything we disagree with politically is why this happened. All of it. Even the bits that make no sense. ”

Also they used the word “internets”  without a trace if irony which is just delightful.

Of course not… but I’m sure Voldemort was there, too.  Let’s not let God hog all the glory.

[eye roll]

Your book is mythology and has no bearing on reality.  Please.  This guy was a nutjob (albeit, a very smart nutjob) who was a very broken human.  It had nothing to do with god, gods, evolution, taking god out of schools, banning prayer or roadside crosses.  It has everything to do with a random guy going overboard.

Amazing.  Pro-life religious people interpreting events like pro-life religious people.  You just never know do you?  Why can’t they be more like the free thinking pro-choice atheists who always happen to think alike?

When i say “pretty sure” i mean there are actually passages of jebus leading armies to battle and killing people, i just don’t know the exact number of the chapter.

You mean like Norway?

Sorry, my sarcasm detector must be on the fritz.

*Runs to Google it* 

Revelation 19. I must have dozed off during that bit at Sunday school. 🙂
http://www.enduringword.com/commentaries/6619.htm 

Well, he must be the son of God in that case. Wielding a fiery broadsword of deific vengeance must be tough in sandals.

The people who write for, read and comment at The Christian Post aren’t operating in the modern world.

Looks like Skeptic’s Dictionary can add some new content to their article on shoe-horning.

There are.  And there have been.  Smaller populations, fewer people. 

 “Not the demented and ludicrous mantra of insecure post-modern atheism
that must ignore the complexities of reality while claiming intellectual
superiority at the same time.”

Wait. A theist is arguing that atheists are ignoring the complexities of REALITY?

Well-played, sir! I chortled heartily!

You do know Mr Holmes is an atheist, right? Not good for your side, ole pal.

Why are God’s judgements so seemingly removed from their source? Why punish a bunch of people randomly enjoying a movie, and not a hot bed of sin and vice like New York City or Las Vegas? It’s nothing more than confirmation bias. These people see what they want to see, and what they want to see is a deity as hateful, bigoted and judgmental as they are.

In the words of Ben Franklin,  “I looked around for God’s judgments, but saw no signs of them.”

Yup, she made your average prostitute on the street look like Mother Theresa. The horrible thing is, these people actually see it that way. Unless you say the magic prayer, read your Bible every day and go to church without fail, God sees you the same as Ted Bundy or Adolph Hitler.

Not very often. It’s just the difference in excuses. Of course, a lot of Christians don’t support bombing abortion clinics or shooting abortion providers, or especially blowing up a federal building or drowning all of one’s children, but for believing in god, they like to distance themselves from anyone who says they’ve actually heard god speak to them, if it means he told them to do horrible things nobody should do. God only tells us nice things. On another hand entirely, these things happen because people are ill, not because Satan is in them. I had a fight online a long time ago because some Christians, specifically, but I think society overall, likes to blame the culture, as if safely hiding behind god, you are immune to being sick in the head. Laws would not have stopped any of these people, obviously. Vigilance would not have stopped them. A society that supports and does not stigmatize mental health may have helped any of them.

Right now, there’s a huge debate about how many weapons this guy could obtain legally, and I’ve got another friend that says something like a security guard watching the door would be sufficient. For fuck’s sake, a security guard would shut the door and told the guy to go home, leaving a dangerously ill person at large, and still with intent to harm. We have agencies that spy on and thwart Islamic terrorists before they can do harm, but we do not have anyone watching people as they slip dangerously to the point where they want to kill large groups of people and have the means and the patience to effect a plan to do so. It’s not because it was easy to get in the theater. It’s not because he could get guns. He got guns because he wanted to, and there’s nothing in place to help people not want to.

This is not to brand mental illness with fear of the worst. It’s from top to bottom difficult for a mentally ill person to recognize about themselves and seek help. People want to take them to church, or just “get over it,” or drink or drug their problems away. This guy was a sick person, and it’s hard to feel what would otherwise look like compassion for him, it’s easy to turn your back on all the psychopaths once they murder a bunch of people. It was apparently easy for him to get far enough in trouble to act it out without anyone noticing. For Christians to act out similar crimes in the name of god, I imagine it’s even worse. It’s coming from an ignorant place that supports zealotry and passion, while tending to advise prayer when someone has an emotion or mental instability they can’t handle, and/or blame Satan whenever something like that happens. It just makes me sick when something does happen how ignorant people are about mental illnesses and how eager they are to blame something as stupid as Satan and act like they had no collective part in someone’s unraveling.

 I effectively have just as much access and I haven’t acquired any guns. I don’t think there is any effective measure that could frustrate a person intent on killing as many people at once – they will find a way. I have no such intent, and why? Pretty unfortunately for a dozen people (this time), he probably alienated people who might have helped him if they saw the signs, it has a way of making people not give a crap about you, and probably contributes to making plans that much more elaborate.

I somewhat agree that easier access makes a plan much simpler, but (a) suggest not selling them, or limiting them. “Oh, he just wouldn’t be able to kill as many people.” He’d still be sick. And you can’t lock up all means to kill as many people as you can, because people intent on doing so will not just buy a gun and kill a few people, and the rest of us still need access to fairly harmless things that can be used in combinations to create lethal weapons, if one is intent, you know, sick, smart, and patient enough. I’m projecting on this case someone who wanted the drama and he could get drama without guns; if he didn’t have access to guns, he still would have found a way. For instance, would I rather have shooting or dirty bombs or poisoned mail? My armchair analysis is that he wants to be remembered as a real life villain, like the kind in Batman movies, and not just some asshole nobody likes.

Could be, but it also varies wildly from region to region. Some populations have a lot more fundamentalists than others. I can’t imagine there’s much genetic difference between the Southern white population and the people from the now-largely secular countries from which their ancestors hailed.

BTW you are right though. That is a go to “waa waa we’re being oppressed” line that the right wingnuts use all the time.

I agree. I move in pretty left-wing circles too (I like people) but I hear plenty of criticism of all sorts of religion in pretty equal measure. I’m in the UK though and ironically, considering our established church X’tian voices aren’t nearly as loud or as shrill as they seem to be across the pond. 

Obviously, a lot of people on the left of centre are concerned with being seen as racist but, as far as I am concerned your lineage, your religion, nor the colour of your skin can ever give you a right to treat anyone as lesser than or beholden to you. 

[citation needed]

Yeah, sure is our arrogant ego to ask for evidence before accepting it as truth… but it isn’t arrogant ego to assume one knows the Creator of the universe on an intimate personal level.

Why don’t you fuck right off, anus.

But wouldn’t there be more genetic diversity in America, not less? It seems to me that if your theory is true, it should work the other way around. The people from homogeneous European countries should have remained fundamentalist, while the American “melting pot” group should have become less religious over time.

 What happens when everyone realizes ‘hey wait a minute, things are actually kind of better now.’

The US is too diverse for your simplistic theory to hold water. Also it would be nice if you provided some kind of statistics to back it up. For example, if Americans are motivated by distrust of government to shoot more people then you’d expect a disproportionate number of government employees with a cap in their ass. Did you learn this nonsense in the Canadian school system, did you make it up, or what?

There is a difference between saying Islam is X and that all Muslims are X.

Unfortunately it wasn’t written the way your first paragraph interprets it.  He has multiple false statements and jumps to multiple wrong conclusions.   He also made blanket statements that were obviously false.   
 
I agree with isolated sentences but overall the entire comment was unsupported conjecture.   He implies all sorts of ridiculous notions to.  Like when he writes, “Canadians historically wanted, in fact DESIRED, government.”   Guess what, so did Americans which he implied they didn’t.   He totally botches natural rights philosophy.   It’s just on and on with nonsense.
 
Also, because we are in fact differing in our cultural perspectives here in the US you don’t understand that, in part his comment was in fact directed at me, and my beliefs.  He gets them all wrong.  I believe in natural rights which include the right to bear arms but that is not based on a “distrust of government”.  
 
With regard to the rest of your comment. I don’t think Canada has merely a different culture than the US.   It has mulitple different cultures of its own.  So saying, “There’s no arguing that we have a different culture from our neighbors to the north.”  is not responsive to my comment.  I wasn’t arguing that.
 
Your last paragraph was also not responsive.  I’m well aware that they have better crime statistics but arguing that it is because in the US people believe in natural rights, is frankly, ignorant.
 
Not surprising that a Canadian would get it all wrong considering there are many of ignorant Americans who aren’t aware of our own philosophical roots.
 

 Oh dear… now it’s all us baby-boomers’ fault!  How do you know things weren’t “better” fifty years ago?  Were you there?  Of course not; you’re simply regurgitating the same old hearsay rubbish that your self-entitled generation brings to every sociological debate.

We baby-boomers have one major advantage in this debate; we’ve lived (obviously) through the globally turbulent but relatively personal sane 50s and 60s, AND your generation’s formative years.  Therefore, we have intimate, first-hand knowledge of both;  and which you don’t.  Sorry.

If it wasn’t for the efforts of baby-boomers, you wouldn’t now be enjoying the myriad “luxuries” you now so disdainfully take for granted.  You wouldn’t have a life expectancy of 90+ years, or artificial hips.  You wouldn’t have cell phones, or plasma TV sets.  You’d still be leaving school at 14 years of age without the slightest chance of a university education.  You’d still be dying from polio, tuberculosis and cholera. It would still take you 3 weeks to get a letter sent to a London address by steamship, or take you nearly 24 hours to fly from LA to New York.

And have you noticed that, globally, mass murders are invariably committed not by baby-boomer-aged people, but by YOUR generation?  Statistically, the majority of mass murderers (4+ victims) are  white males in their 20s or 30s [School of Criminology & Criminal Justice, Northeastern University]. James Eagan Holmes is 24 years old. Since 1982, there have been at least 50 mass murders – carried out with firearms – across the USA, with the killings occurring in 30 states.

Until (or unless) your generation should wake up to the realities of the very  fabric of society you’re degrading by your self-centredness and lack of compassion for your fellow man, these sorts of mass murders will continue by the disenfranchised younger generation, and particularly in America – with its contingent, lax gun laws.

And to accuse baby-boomers of being “selfish” is the ultimate irony considering that the current young adult generation is acknowledged as the most self-serving, egotistical and self-entitled in the history of our planet.