Annual Pastor’s Conference… Black People Not Allowed July 4, 2012

Annual Pastor’s Conference… Black People Not Allowed

That’s a real thing. Christian Identity Ministries exists. Hell, this is their fourth conference.

So why only White Christians? The organizers explained using all of the wisdom at their disposal:

The organizer of the event, Rev. William C. Collier says that his Church of God’s Chosen (Christian Identity Ministries) is not a hate group but adds that he believes “the white race is God’s chosen people.”

… Collier said, “We don’t have the facilities to accommodate other people. We haven’t got any invitations to black muslim events. Of course, we are not invited to Jewish events and stuff.”

Mel Lewis said, “We have a right as Americans to meet, to pray, to assemble. If someone is offended too bad

I can’t understand why groups wouldn’t invite these guys to their parties…

Brace yourself for the onslaught of Christians explaining why these Christians aren’t really Christians.

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  • This makes me think of that old Far Side cartoon….

  • NickDB

    Wonder if they start their pray meetings with the Horst-Wessel-Song and have a straight arm salute.

  • Nankay

    Not a hate group?

      “That sacred Christian cross lighting” at the end?  just showing our burning love for Jesus.  White robes and pointy hoods? Keeps the smoke and ash off our Sunday clothes.”

  • Well, they do end it with a “cross lighting ceremony”.

  • gski

    They must not take god’s word seriously, didn’t he say the Jews were his chosen people?

  • Pisk_A_Dausen

    “We don’t have the facilities to accommodate other people.” Because non-white Christians need different facilities than white Christians…?

  •  Separate toilets, drinking fountains, and special seats on the buses, probably.

  • And don’t they realise they are following a non-white Jew? So if there was a ‘second coming’ during this conference, Jebus wouldn’t be allowed in?

  • Shabushabu

    Kind of like with with gay people. Hate the sin, love the sinner. But in this case, hate the color, love the colored.

  • mikespeir

    I’ve got to say this:  While I’m not a Christian of any stripe anymore, I’m so thankful that my Pentecostal parents would’ve beaten me within an inch of my life if I’d shown any racist tendencies.  All Christians are not this way–or anything close to it.

  • Since religion is entirely made up by humans, humans are still free to claim anything they want as to what God prefers or chooses.  That is one of the draws to religion…  the ability to justify your own biases and prejudices as being God’s will.  That and the appeal of an infinite reward (heaven) for some small finite payment (believing in one little tidbit of human-invented fantasy like accepting Jesus as your savior, that Muhammad is the true profit, some stuff about Joseph Smith, etc..).

  • Notruescotsman

  • Donalbain

     No, just not great grammar. I am pretty sure he meant “Not all Christians are this way”.

  • Gunstargreen

    Then Jesus actually rises from the dead as a middle eastern fellow and says, “Nope.”

  • TiltedHorizon

    “We don’t have the facilities to accommodate other people.”

    Which translates to “Our facilities does not have separate entrances for the colored, nor do they have properly labeled “Colored Only” drinking fountains or bathrooms.”

    Oh religion, is there nothing you can’t justify? 

  • newavocation

    So where do you draw the line? When are you a good christian or just a person with minimal mental health issues and fortunate enough to be raised in a healthy environment? Is a humane naturalist a christian without a belief in god or an afterlife?

  • Good and Godless

    Send some invites now so their next announcement is going to have to read a whole lot differently.

  • Dreeeepy

    “Brace yourself for the onslaught of Christians explaining why these Christians aren’t really Christians.”

    or we could just link to the wise person who posted this:

    “Here’s the truth: People can be good or bad no matter what their religious views are.”

  • Wednesday 2pm: America – A Christian Nation
    Friday 2pm: Seminar- Grassroots Activism
    Friday 6pm: “Resistance”

    These seem to be the only speeches. For a 3 day event that spans 9 hours the first 2 days and 11 hours the third day. The rest is just regular sermons and prayer mixed with some really old games. Washers and horseshoes? What do they do on the third day? throw lawn darts at black people?

  • Ken McKnight

    What, no lynching on the agenda?  (Did anyone else flash back to the Klan meeting scene in “O Brother Where Art Thou”?)

  • Cross lighting? You mean, setting a cross on fire? Just like KKK?

    Will there be pointy hats too?

  • Brian Worley

    “Brace yourself for the onslaught of Christians explaining why these Christians aren’t really Christians.” 

  • Lurker111

    Christ, if he existed, was Anglo-Saxon, of course.  No swarthy appearance there.


  • Rwlawoffice

    Try as you will to cast these racists as a true reflection of the  Christian faith but they are not.  Just because they call themselves Christians does not mean that they are following the orthodox Christian faith. Stalin was an atheist so does that mean that  he represented the thoughts of all who call themselves atheists? Of course not.  But of course painting all Christians with such a broad brush fits so much better with your narrative so I get it. These guys are racists and nothing more. As a Christian I abhor what their racists beliefs and find no support for them in my faith.

  • Sindigo

    Can people protest this church? Does anyone every protest this church?

  • Sometimes news leaves me at a loss.
    We need to skim off all this dross.
    You know things aren’t right
    if you just want whites
    and then plan on burning a cross.

  • dorothy30

    how is this even legal???

  • Fargofan

     I agree with the statement, “People can be good or bad no matter what their religious views are.” Although I’m not a Christian anymore, I graduated from a Christian college that fully embraced racial equality. Anecdotal, yes, but I don’t think racism is part and parcel of the faith.

    With this group, we’re tempted to judge all believers by the actions of the lunatic fringe. It reminds me of what Pat Robertson did on the 700 Club with Gay Pride Parades.

  • revaaron

    Your comment is probably mostly tongue in cheek, but it’s something folks like them addressed a long time ago.

    Basically, they believe that the Jews of the OT and Jesus were white. Or at least, one or more than one specific Judaic tribes are white and became modern Europeans. At some point between the OT and NT, the Jewish people were corrupted by evil brown people and chased the real Jews- you know, the lily white ones- into Europe. This ties into their exegesis of the NT as well- the Jews of those days didn’t just murder Jebus because he was taking a dump on their authority and declaring himself a god and/or son of god and/or a better preacher than them- they hated him because he was one of the real white Jews.

    Insane, and for some reason bizarrely fascinating to me. Just so systematic in a painfully pre-modern, ethnocentric, and batshit crazy way.

  • Pedro Lemos

    I don´t think Hemant meant to say that this is the “true reflection of the  Christian faith”.
    He is just saying that these guys, who consider themselves as christians, are using their faith to legitimate their racism. That´s one of the bad sides of religions, they can be used to justify anything you want, in spite of commom sense or moral values telling you it´s wrong.
    Of course not all christians would agree with this group, but it´s the christian faith (and faith in general) freedom to believe in anything and do anything in order to follow these beliefs that allows things like this to happen.
    It doesn´t matter that orthodox christian faith wouldn´t allow this, the simple existence of any faith already allows these deviations to occur. If they were jewish/evangelicals/muslim/hinduists/whatever racists, it wouldn´t be any better.

  • Lamocla

    And what makes you think that your brand of Christianity is the correct one? There are 37,000 other crhristian denominations that says you’re wrong.

  • Pascale Laviolette

    It’s unfortunate they believe their religion supports their views; they do what they do and preach what they preach IN THE NAME of Christianity.

    The same can not be said of atheism. PRATT.

  • TiltedHorizon

    Try as you will to cast doubt on these “True Christians ®” there is little separating these people from the mainstream, simply substitute “black” with “homosexual”. 

  • Jude

    I’m so thankful that my Pentecostal parents would’ve beaten me within an inch of my life if I’d shown any racist tendencies.”

    What, were your parents not skilled enough to sit down and talk to you about it?

    Or do you think physical violence is the best way to teach?

  • Jude

    Oops, this was supposed to be in response to mikespeir, not newavocation.

  • Justin Miyundees

    That mass delusion does not necessarily lead to sociopathy is small recompense.

  • Ida

    Wel, I’m glad they emphasized again that ony *white* Christians are invited to the – erm- sacred cross-lightng. I guess black Christians are okay to come to horsehoes, someone has to collect up all the tossed ones…but I wonder what they’d do if a Catholic showed up. Those “sacred cross-lightings” were conducted on our lawns too.

  • Onamission5

    I had to check my calendar. For a second I thought it was 1952.

  • jdm8

    “… Collier said, “We don’t have the facilities to accommodate other people. We haven’t got any invitations to black muslim events. Of course, we are not invited to Jewish events and stuff.”

    Yes, because the objection is obviously about the religion part, not the race.  Dumbass.

    White Christian supremacy is called Christian Identity. It looks like they believe that northern Europe was settled by the lost tribes of Israel and have decided these were the true chosen people.  The available web sites on the topic are mostly things that look like they were designed in the mid-90s.

  • mikespeir

    The grammar’s fine.  And what’s with all the negative replies?  I’m not defending Christianity.  I repudiate it.  And speaking of No True Scotsman, that’s exactly the mistake I’m talking about.  Too often I see it turned around such that conservative believers are assumed to be racist, one and all.  It’s not true.

  • mikespeir

    I was being hyperbolic, to make the point of how strongly my parents objected to racism.  Why the nitpicking here?

  • mikespeir

     ????  Wow!

  • Sindigo

    Seems like a visit from a white, plain-clothes police officer to see if they are doing anything illegal, for example encouraging violence against racial minorities would be in order. Is that illegal in the US?

  • Oh religion, is there nothing you can’t justify?

    If there is, history has not yet demonstrated what it is.

  • Mike’s right. Flinging “No True Scotsman” as a clever rejoinder that is assumed to broadly discredit someone’s entire point is lazy and frankly intellectually dishonest.

    While I have zero fuzzy love for social conservatives, I have come across a few who created massive cognitive dissonance in my head until I accepted that there are in fact some who believe in Jesus, are uncomfortable with–but are not against–gay marriage, and are decidedly not racist. So not racist that they’ll get right up in your grill if you’re a bigot.

  • Stev84

    If you claim to have “sincerely held religious beliefs” you can be exempt from just about any law these days

  • Mike, it’s one of the things I don’t much care for in the atheist movement. Lots of people who like to nitpick while they ignore the broader picture. Atheists can be douchecanoes too.

  • jdm8

    Keep in mind that the Apostle Paul wrote to a slave owner and didn’t bother to ask or demand that the slave be freed.

  • Piet Puk


    These guys are racists and nothing more. As a Christian I abhor what
    their racists beliefs and find no support for them in my faith.

    Nope, they’re also White and Christian. They just pick different cherries then you do.

  • Dan

    I don’t think it’s nitpicking to point out how immoral it is for someone to say that they’re glad their parents would have physically abused them almost to the point of death if they had believed hatefully things as a child. That’s just crazy, and a major slap in the face to your parents if you were just being hyperbolic. DiscountIng racism while simultaneously condoning child abuse is pretty bizarre, and deserves to be called out.

  • Among other things I suspect that there is an interesting (and very common) equivocation on “We” going on here, perhaps even two. White racists probably aren’t invited to such events, but whites as a whole aren’t systematically excluded from them. Hell, quite a few minority activities are open to others. What would have stopped me from joining the Black Student’s Association when I was in college? Not a damned thing. Not surprisingly, I chose not to . There is a very big difference. I’ll bet these guys would be quite surprised to find out just how open some of these groups are to others.

  • Because it’s impossible that Mike could have been serious about his happiness at being beaten physically, right?

    We’re not ignoring the “broader picture”, whatever that might be. Some Christians aren’t racist asshats. Great, good for them. But why haven’t a good number of them (or any at all) come forward and denounced this type of behavior, which can indeed be justified religiously?

  • It was  mere decades ago that religious beliefs were used to justify racism.

  • That’s just weird. It was clearly hyperbole, and what Mike says regarding his parents and their parenting style is between him and them. Ferchrissakes.

    Molehill Mountain.

  • Usually these things are conveniently ignored by most other churches and religious church-goers. They’re often brushed aside as “not true Christians”, or the excuse that these are people doing bad things and religion has nothing to do with it, is often used.

  • Coyotenose

     Correct me if I’m wrong, but it’s my understanding that given where and when he was supposed to have been born, Jesus was even more likely to have been what we’d call “black”.

  • Try as you will to impose your straw-man arguments on this article, you are completely off-base. Hemant said nothing of the sort. Of course, it does say a lot about you to assume such a thing.

  • No, it’s not impossible, but was it probable and therefore justified harsh scrutiny? NO.

    Recognizing hyperbole in everyday, colloquial speech and writing is not an uncommon skill. Also, not blowing things out of proportion.

  • Coyotenose

     It’s a common turn of phrase, well understood to not be an endorsement of actual violence or a slur against anyone. A Westerner with English as his first language would have to deliberately misunderstand it in an attempt to ferret out something to complain about.

    Playing dishonest semantics games in order to attack mikespeir is the only immoral thing going on here.

  • Coyotenose

     It only takes a smidge of reading comprehension and familiarity with the language to see that it is extremely unlikely that mikespeir was being literal.

    Nice job trying to hold him accountable for his parents (allegedly) not criticizing religiously-supported racism. Very Biblical of you.

  • Coyotenose

     That was nothing like a “No True Scotsman.” Try reading what he said.

  • I wasn’t trying to hold him accountable for anything. Reading comprehension, indeed.

  • Patterrssonn

    Welcome to the internet.

  • It wasn’t you, it was Jude:

    “What, were your parents not skilled enough to sit down and talk to you about it?

    Or do you think physical violence is the best way to teach?”

    Either Jude has trouble with colloquial language in English, or he’s being a deliberately obtuse asshole. I’m willing to put my money on the former rather than the latter, though.

  • Annie

    I can’t tell for sure, but from this video, it appears Collier’s “church” is a shed?

    And according to Collier, we are all being racists and haters by suggesting this event is racist and hateful.  Got that, everybody?

  • A Reader

    I think I just might throw up…this is disgusting. Are we sure it’s from this year/recent past, and not like the 50’s? Maybe? Please?

  • Christian Identity *IS* real and yes, they have no shame in proclaiming the dominance of the white man.

    I worked with one years ago. He explained to me how when Cain slew his brother Abel and was banished from the Garden that he got his freak on with “beast-kind” in the wilderness and that is where all the non-white races of the world came from.

    And he explained this with all the nonchalance I would use explaining that you need tahini to make hummus.

    Scary people!

  • Ahhh, the arrival of the “But they’re not REALChristian(tm)s!” apologist.

    There’s something like 42,000 different denominations of christianity out there, all claiming to have the “One True Word”, all claiming the other 41,999 sects are preaching “False Dogma”.

    Just ask a Southern Baptist if a Catholic is a christian.

    If there was universal agreement on what it takes to be a “RealChristian(tm)”, then there would be only ONE denomination, yes?

    Oh, and -1 for “Stalin was an Atheist”. Hitler was a Christian, so your point is?

  • Wild Rumpus

     “With or without (religion) you would have good people doing good things and
    evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things,
    that takes religion.”  – Steven Weinberg

  • Bholly72

    I can’t see this as an indictment of Christianity. Yes, these folks are Christians, but their essential identity is Klan. 

  • Wild Rumpus

     “Is a humane naturalist a christian without a belief in god or an afterlife?”

    NO – “John 14:6, “Jesus saith unto him, I
    am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by
    me.”…so you know all the billions of atheists, humanists, free thinkers, animists, pagans, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Jains, Hindus, Sufis – yeah, they’re in hell suffering for eternity…Christ, what an asshole.

  • Clearly. I love how you say that with such conviction.
    Take a look over at the “Jesus Take The Wheel Day” post, specifically at a comment made by one C Peterson, who basically said that the entire family should be in the car when the driver lets go of the wheel. Including the children. Another commenter agreed with him/her.

    Am I supposed to believe that it’s “clearly” hyperbole? Because the second commenter seems upset that the rest of us aren’t “tolerant” of the opinion that the children deserve the suffer along with the parents who may believe with the Jesus Take The Wheel Day nonsense.

    Please don’t lecture us on how “clearly” one post is hyperbole while another isn’t. There is no clear and easy way to tell.

  • scinquiry

    Happy 4th, everyone….  Well, except those with greater concentrations of melanin because….well, you know.  You weren’t chosen so you have to stay outside. 

  • “Brace yourself for the onslaught of Christians explaining why these Christians aren’t really Christians.”
    Good news everybody! I just realized there no Christians! Every Christian falls into some other Christian’s definition of  “not a real Christian”. So So I guess we can start converting all of those churches into buildings that are actually useful…

  • I do say it with conviction TerranRich, because it’s clear. People make hyperbolic comments about their experiences all of the time. It’s common in everyday speech. The crap that C Peterson and his buddy are espousing under the Jesus Wheel article is NOT clearly hyperbole. They might be just trying to push buttons, or maybe they just don’t give a flying about little kids. Either way they’re being jerks.

    Going after mikespier for his words about his own experiences that only affect him is just silly.

  • Which is precisely why I blame all Christians for the faults of the few.

    If they really believed in what they claim to believe, they would not be allowing this kind of nonsense to happen at all, let alone to happen in the name of their religion. There is no shortage of churches out there championing bigotry and hatred — THOSE churches, at least, got the memo about practices, even if they ignored the one about mission statement, to use business jargon. But the “nice” “liberal” churches never, EVER actually ACT on their faith. Where are all the letters to the editor, campaigns to boycott companies which do bad things, and picketing campaigns? Oh, they exist — and they’re run by the nonreligious. No, “liberal” Christians wouldn’t want to start acting on their beliefs; that — as George Carlin once put it — sounds like something Jesus might do.

  • Rwlawoffice

     I quoted him exactly. The message was clear and just as I stated.  It was a preemptive strike against any would defend Christianity while at the same time disagreeing with these racists.

  • Occam

    “Stalin was an atheist so does that mean that  he represented the thoughts of all who call themselves atheists?”

    Straw man.

    I know this seems difficult for religious people to understand, but atheism is not equivalent to a religion.  There is no set of codes, dogmas, rituals, scriptures, saints, etc.; the only commonality is the lack of a belief in god(s).  Just as Stalin having a mustache does not validate a comparison to other mustachioed people, his lack of belief in a supreme being (or presumably unicorns, leprechauns, fairies, etc.) does not beg comparison with those who also lack those beliefs. 

  • I’m really disappointed that the pastor from Sterling VA is missing out on all the power outages by being in AL.  Tried looking him up and didn’t find anything- maybe he’s only a Reverend in his own mind.

  • Edmond

    I’m not sure there are too many people here trying to say that these people represent all Christians.  Of course they don’t.  If anything, I’m sure they represent a very slim minority of Christians.

    I think the point that is being made here is that religion can give you ANY justification for ANYTHING.  Don’t like blacks?  Your religion can make that OK!  Don’t like gays, Jews, women?  Your religion has rationalizations for you!  Want to break laws and shun good people for no good reason?  Just say “It’s my religion”!

    It only goes to show that ALL religions are inventions, created by people who want to claim “higher authority” to do things that are normally frowned upon, or even illegal.

  • Edmond

    You’ve got dozens of people here telling you that this isn’t about lumping all Christians together, it’s about religion being used to justify anything and everything.

  • Baby_Raptor

    I think he was just trying to show that they’d have come down on him hard for being racist. 

  • Baby_Raptor

    You don’t dictate who is and isn’t a Christian. You can scream about how they don’t support “your” faith all you want, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t Christian, it just means they don’t follow your subset of beliefs. 

  • I’ll just note this isn’t obviously a Christian thing per se. I mean, obviously there’s a correlation in the states between religiosity and racism and there’s some post-facto theology there. But make these people atheists tomorrow and give them a reason to meet and most likely it will be an all-white meeting. 
    … Not of course that a Millite liberal has much against all white meetings. I wouldn’t go to one and they are a risk that ought to be monitored. But I dont see that meetings for whites are much more worrying than meetings for Christians or meetings for theists or meetings for men, all of which are clearly legitimate.

  • How  very Christian…and white…of them.   

  • artemis133

    Freedom of religion exists in this country, as of yet. Freedom of speech (the First Amendment) protects not nicey-nice speech, but speech others might find objectionable. The Jews think that THEY are ‘God’s Chosen People’, and many in the U.S. support that. Blacks have Liberation Theology, ala Rev. Wright; that’s ok. As long as these folks are not hurting others, it is their right as citizens of this country to believe as they wish.  I’m tired of people trying to shut down others’ points of view.

  • Bisho

    Ha ha I snickered at how they don’t know if “12 noon” is AM or PM! 

  • Stev84

    I don’t see anyone trying to sue them. Freedom of speech doesn’t mean freedom from criticism

  • Who is trying to shut down their point of view?   Yes, they have freedom of speech. So do we.  We’re exercising it by saying how vile we think they are.  Why are you trying to shut down our point of view?

  • Ken

    Somehow so appropriate for those who have no discernable sense of proportion or humor.  I lke it.

  • Ken

    Yep. ” Douchecanoes” really does seem to cover it.

  • JohnnieCanuck

    Go back a hundred years or more and you’d find that the majority of Christians and the sects they identified with were racist. Whatever splinter of Christianity you follow now, its antecedents were a lot more racist back in the day.

    So much for that absolute morality thing you guys have going for you.

  • Rwlawoffice

     Cite your source for this.  It is a very broad statement that is not factually accurate.  In fact, the truth is that in this country it was the Christians who were the driving force behind ending slavery and pursued civil rights.  In fact Christianity brought more equality among the races and all people in general than any other faith or group of people in history.

  • Rwlawoffice

     People can find anything to justify their views.  Atheists have used their lack of a belief in God to kill millions of people, disparage people, discriminate against others, etc.  The fact that these people use their warped view of Christianity to support their views only says something about them, it doesn’t say anything about Christianity.

  • eskomo

    Where is the quote? I don’t see any blanket statement.

  • Rwlawoffice

     Not anymore of a strawman than Hemants point here.  The fact that these people attempt to use Christianity to justify there views says something about them, not Christianity. 

  • Rwlawoffice

     In the name of creating a secular state to promote the lack of a belief in God, Stalin killed millions of people. What does that say about atheism? nothing other than the lack of a belief in God can be used to justify any actions just as these are using Christianity.  It is a reflection on them, not on the faith as it is being implied here.

  • JohnnieCanuck

    They were not prevented from publishing their material, therefore their freedom of speech was not violated. Comprehend? Not only that, they are being given a much larger audience than they otherwise might have reached. That’s kind of the opposite of shutting them up.
    Portraying them as bigots or criticising their particular take on being Good Christians is not taking away their right to believe or to talk about it as they wish.What I would hope to shut down is any chance that they might think they could get away with putting their prejudices into action. They start burning those crosses on someone else’s lawn and they’ve crossed the line.Do you really privilege religion that much that it should not be subjected to criticism? If that means we are rude militant atheists in your eyes, so be it.

  • Rwlawoffice

     Are you really that ignorant of the Christian faith?

  • Blanc_Slate

    Notice how they didn’t bring up, in their poor excuse for an explanation, the possibility that blacks can be christians too. To them, it seems, all blacks are muslims. 

  •  Right.  A century from now we’ll be hearing about how Christianity led the fight for LGBT equality.  Such revisionism. 

  • JohnnieCanuck

    You’ve never come across references to the ‘children of Ham’?

    Some Christians in America opposed the slave trade and/or slavery. It started pretty much with the Quakers in 1697 when they officially declared their opposition to the importation of slaves.

    Before that, the Church of England, which was the official church of England and all her colonies and other churches besides, justified slavery as a way to bring Christianity to Africans. They even benefitted directly “through the United Society for the Propagation of the Gospel missionary organisations, which had plantations in Barbados; while the Bishop of Exeter was a personal slave owner”.

    Indeed it was Evangelicals who spearheaded abolition, starting in the mid 1700s. They were opposed by other church leaders, especially in the southern States. The CoE called them ‘Nonconformists’ and ‘Dissenters’ and they were marginalised because of it.

    The Quakers and Evangelicals were the seeds that grew to become the abolitionist movement. Those who joined them were mostly Christian, but so were those, initially a majority, that opposed them. Christianity after all, was the default condition.

    Here is one reference for you: It’s the source of my quote above.

    Try Googling for “christian justification for slavery”. I’m sure you know how, if you want to.

    My point is that slavery was long justified with specific passages in the Bible. It was also argued that it was a useful way to convert the black ‘savages’ and save their souls.

    When we go as far back as the Renaissance, painters sponsored by the Church made their God and their Saints and Apostles into Caucasians for what could only be racist reasons.

  • TCC

    I see a lot of people quote Weinberg on this, but frankly, the statement is either false or question-begging. (Much of it hangs on what constitutes a “good person”; I would fundamentally disagree because I don’t think people are intrinsically good or bad.)

  • TCC

    You can’t “use” the absence of a belief to justify something. These people committed atrocities because of beliefs they had: beliefs that they were justified in their actions because they had power or because it served some greater purpose, etc. It had nothing to do with their atheism, which isn’t a position at all. Even if you say, “Oh, well, they justified these atrocities by saying that they had no higher power to hold them responsible,” that presupposes a belief in the necessity of some final arbiter as a deterrent. So stop making this claim as though it was equivalent to people who have actually committed atrocities in the name of God – it’s not.

    P.S. It really isn’t necessary to talk about these things to make statements about Christianity; reading the Bible is enough.

  •  In what way?

  • Nick

    I’ve heard of these people before — to my recollection they’re basically imitation-KKK.

  • Edmond

    Even a modern atheist knows the dangers of Stalinism. That tactic is too old, you can give it up, it won’t play with us.

    Government should promote neither religion NOR anti-religion. Religion should be a personal concept, unentangled with government (and vice versa).

    This says NOTHING about atheism. It says LOADS about governments which try to adopt or enforce beliefs. Beliefs can’t be mandated or assigned, and they shouldn’t be “official” or “endorsed”.

    The LACK of belief in a god doesn’t justify anything. When you don’t believe in a god, YOU are responsible for your OWN beliefs. Atheists explain their OWN positions. They don’t hold beliefs because they claim they’ve been ORDERED to by invisible yet unquestionable authorities.

    But when you claim that your beliefs are sanctioned and endorsed (or even commanded) by unsubstantiated beings, you are asking that your beliefs be given free reign without question ior criticism.

    This “White Christian” group is the kind of thing that results from those kinds of unfettered claims. Whether you claim that white people are especially chosen, or that marriage isn’t meant for same-sex couples, or that doctors shouldn’t be sought in cases of disease or injury, or that scientific findings are categorically false, or that ANYTHING is true without being properly proven, as long as it’s under the guise of the supernatural, it’s expected to be unassailable.

    Actually, that’s unaccptable.

    There aren’t ANY claims that should be above the usual standards of logic, reason, and reality. We don’t give up those standards for car salesmen, dentists, or security guards. Why do some people give them up at the sound of the word “god”? How does that let ANY behavior off the hook?Was it okay for the Greek gods or the Incan gods?  Is it okay for the white-choosing gods or the gay-hating gods? Is it only ok for YOUR god?  What will be the NEXT thing we will be asked to overlook, just because someone tells us a god wants it?”Because god wants it” is not a good reason for doing something.  It never was.  Atheists explain their OWN reasons, they don’t lean back on other who can’t be questioned.

  • TiltedHorizon

     “Atheists have used their lack of a belief in God to kill millions of
    people, disparage people, discriminate against others, etc. ”

    You are right, people can find anything to justify their views, as you just did about atheism. Furthermore, that fact that so many atheists are former Christians DOES say something about Christianity. You just choose to rationalize it away as “never having truly understood.” Yep….  thousands of denominations within Christianity, thankfully Rwlawoffice chose the right one. No way you are wrong.

  • TiltedHorizon

     Odd. Don’t quotes actually contain a quote? 

  • Piet Puk

     Don’t you know? He is this guy>>

  • TiltedHorizon

    “In fact, the truth is that in this country it was the Christians who were
    the driving force behind ending slavery and pursued civil rights.”

    Oh? It must have been the atheists who owned all those slaves.  

  • Not surprised at all, really. “Christian Identity” is nothing more than a prettied-up KKK.

  •  Rather, “Christ: what an asshole!”


    Christianity == HATRED AND MURDER.

  • Pfft. Troll.

    Christianity == DEATH CULT.

  • Unless your sincerely held religious belief involves that Devil Weed, MARIHUANA!

    No, seriously, Rastafarians can’t practice their faith.

  • Sindigo

    Are there any Christians coming out against them though? I mean, if an Atheist was saying something like, I don’t know “Ginger people shouldn’t come to our Atheist conference” you could be damn sure that the rest of us would condemn them.

  • Sindigo

    True, but their faith is in direct contravention of the law. I’m not saying that I agree with the law but that is the case. I’m not sure that these asshats have broken any laws.

    Of course, if they’re getting tax relief….

  • Sindigo

    I have to agree. As I said above: “Are there any Christians coming out against them though? I mean, if an Atheist was saying something like, I don’t know “Ginger people shouldn’t come to our Atheist conference” you could be damn sure that the rest of us would condemn them.”

    Of course, it’s difficult for a church to picket another church during their services as they’re all busy on Sunday mornings.

  • Sindigo

    *smack*. Nice.

  • Rwlawoffice

     This is a cop out.  Atheism is a positive belief that there is no God, not simply the lack of a belief in God.  As a result it formed part of the justification for their actions, just as these are trying to use Christianity.

  • Rwlawoffice

     Millions of more people have been killed trying to advance a secular state than any of those that have been killed in a warped view of Christianity.

  • Rwlawoffice

     My reference was to the portion of the post that said”brace yourself for……”

  • Rwlawoffice

     The quote you cited states that the abolitionist movement was started by Christians and Christians made up their ranks. Have you heard of the Pennsylvania Abolitionist Society, Charles Finney, William llyod Garrison, Arthur Weld among others- very vocal evangelists and Christian organizations that were the driving force behind passing laws abolishing slavery.  There were many more.  True there were some like these idiots who tried to use Christianity to support slavery but they were in the minority and it was the work of other Christians, including Abraham Lincoln that ultimately forced the end of slavery.  If there are atheists who were active in the abolitionist movement I am not aware of them, but if you know them I would be open to learn.

  • Jarandeh

    I’ve got that posted in my office.

  • Piet Puk

    Nope. Atheism is the lack of believe in any god, not just your idea of what a god should be.
    Disbelieve in unicorns will also not lead to actions or justification of actions.
    Just like disbelieve in Satan will not lead to do good things.

  • Piet Puk


    True there were some like these idiots who tried to use Christianity to support slavery

    Like those idiots in the bible, when slavery was considered normal.

  • TiltedHorizon

    Based on the assertion of religion shouldn’t Christianity’s scorecard show zero killed? Secularism kills more than Christianity, is that really the winning argument?  

    As a side, Stalin and Hitler were both beaten by their fathers who eventually abandoned them. Both were raised by religious mothers who wanted their sons to become priests. Both actually pursued the path to priesthood, Hitler to a Benedictine monastery, Stalin to Orthodox theological school and the seminary.

    Odd how the both share the same foundational similarities yet you conclude secularism was the cause.

  • TiltedHorizon

     So no “quote” then?

  • TiltedHorizon

    “True there were some like these idiots who tried to use Christianity to support slavery but they were in the minority”

    Minority? As if these “idiots” represented a smal handful and not an entire region…. like “the south”. 

  • JenL

    “We haven’t got any invitations to black muslim events.”


    Perhaps not, but I’d be pretty shocked if they haven’t, sometime in their life, been invited to something at a local christian church that is a mixed group or even a largely black ministry….  Maybe even the (gasp) Latino or Korean (christian) church.

    It just seems amazing to me that they think the answer to “why do you limit *christian* to *white*?” is to give an answer about muslims, as if there’s no such thing as a black christian.

  • JenL

     Neither can Native Americans with religious ceremonies calling for the use of peyote.  Or for the use of feathers from an eagle – there was an article in the paper recently about how many years it took to get the permit to hunt one so that they could use the feathers.   

    Went looking for it, and found a slightly different article on teh same topic – apparently, the federal government keeps a “repository” of feathers and other bald eagle parts, which tribes are supposed to check out for ceremonies.   As the last sentence asks, “How would a non-Indian feel if they had to get their Bible from a repository?”Read more:

  • JenL

     My ex-boyfriend (of Scottish descent) asked if he could join our grad school’s Jewish group, and was a bit offended when he got a polite “um, no, sorry – that would just be weird” in response.  Of course, my ex-boyfriend is one of those “straight white males are the last victims of oppression! Rush Limbaugh followers, so…” 

  • JenL

    I wonder what they’d do if a Catholic showed up

    I suspect they’d say that Catholics aren’t “Christians”, as they define the term. 

  • Rwlawoffice

     Nope.  Atheisn is the positive assertion that there is no God.  As William Lane Craig puts it: “The claim that there is no God is as much a claim to knowledge as the claim there is a God.”

    This belief forms a portion of your worldview as much as my belief in God forms mine.  That worldview leads to action and inaction. For example, because you do not believe in God, you don’t go to church on Sunday.

  • Stev84

    The same William Lain Craig who defends genocide as moral? That’s who look up to?

  • Stev84

    After slavery was abolished, the Bible and “god’s will” were still cited all the time to defend segregation and anti-miscegenation laws.

    “Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, malay and red, and he placed them on separate continents. And but for the interference with his arrangement there would be no cause for such marriages. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix.”– The trial judge in the criminal trial that eventually led to “Loving v Virginia”

  • Rwlawoffice

     Unfortunately you are correct.  There have been those in the past that have used Christianity to justify killings. However, that really doesn’t answer the issue about the millions that have been killed in an attempt to set up a secular society.

    As for Hitler and Stalin originally being raised in a Christian household and then abandoning their faith, doesn’t that say more about those that have abandoned Christianity than it does about the faith itself? Had they kept their faith, would they have engaged in the acts they did? In fact it was their attempts to set up a secular state and stomp out Christianity that led to their actions. By the way, I was not referring to Hitler. I was referring to Stalin.

  • Pedro Lemos

    “Atheists have used their lack of a belief in God to kill millions of people, disparage people, discriminate against others, etc.”

    When exactly was that? People can do terrible things and be atheists, but I dare to say I´ve never heard of someone doing something BECAUSE of atheism. It´s different. The lack of belief is not the cause of the attrocities, and most certainly is not the justification for them.

    On the other hand, religion can be the direct cause or justification of some terrible deeds. You often heard of people doing terrible things because of their religion views. Just to illustrate:

    Just to show a few examples. And I´m no t even gonna mention religions wars, crusades,  forced mutilations, or such.

    Now, when was the last time you´ve heard someone say: “Let´s kill all these people because they believe in a god and we don´t!” or “There´s no god, so I can kill whoever I want!” or “You cannot enter this building, because you´re a believer.”?

  • Rwlawoffice

     Not at all.  And despite your repeat of Dawkins view on Craig and why he won’t debate him, that really is a strawmen to the argument on the definition of atheism.

  • JenL

    Atheists have used their lack of a belief
    in God to kill millions of people, disparage people, discriminate against
    others, etc.

    Um, what?  Okay, going backwards. 


    1)  Name one instance
    of atheists using their lack of belief in God to justify discrimination.  As compared to the times when believers of
    one religion or another use their proclaimed beliefs to justify discrimination on
    the basis of race, gender, or sexual orientation. 


    2) Atheists don’t use their lack of belief to justify
    disparaging people, we just tend to call out people for making ridiculous
    claims or for demanding that we respect their “right” to use their
    beliefs as a cudgel against others. 
    Don’t want us to disparage you? 
    Make sensible, rational, defensible claims, and actually evaluate the
    logic and reasoning in responses to your claim. 
    If we have reason to think (from previous experience with you or with
    others who use similar language) that you won’t listen no matter how politely
    we explain our point of view…  Well, some
    of us are less polite than others.


    3) You don’t have to be an atheist to commit genocide.  In fact, significant numbers of those
    committing genocides weren’t atheists.  Hitler
    was Christian, by the way.  On the list
    of the biggest genocides,,
    it’s interesting to note that the ones who were actually atheists were also
    some variety of communist.  Almost seems
    like, to commit a genocide, you have to have some driving belief system, and either
    religion or a political system like communism will do.  Atheism in and of itself doesn’t seem to be
    enough to drive a person to kill millions. 
    (Personally, I’m not sure atheism lends itself to leading to killing
    *anyone*, must less mass killings.  Look
    at the disproportionately low percentages of atheists in prison…)

  • Piet Puk

    Nope. Atheism is the lack of belief in any god. Have your own definition if you must, I´m not falling for it.
    And ‘not going to church’ is not an action.
    Also, apperantly, there are lots of people in churches that do not believe in any god, even priests.

  • JenL

    In fact, the truth is that in this
    country it was the Christians who were the driving force behind ending slavery
    and pursued civil rights.

     Some Christians fought to end slavery, yes.  But you seem to ignore
    that they were fighting against other Christians who were using religious
    arguments in support of slavery…

  • jemiller226

    Funny, you might think one would believe the atheists on how to define atheism.

  • Rwlawoffice

    Not ignoring that at all.  Regrettably some did try to use Christianity to support slavery.  But my comment stands- Christians and their belief in Christianity was the driving force behind ending slavery in America.  Now if you can name an athesit or an athesit group that was equally invovled, I would like to learn that.

  • jemiller226

    Hitler didn’t abandon his faith. He just stopped trying to be a priest.

  • Pedro Lemos

     “Atheism is a positive belief that there is no God, not simply the lack of a belief in God.”

    Not exactly. There probably are atheists that are positive sure there´s no god, but that´s not my case, and I consider myself an atheist.
    I find the existence of a divine being rather unlikely, simply because of the lack of evidences. It´s the same reason I don´t believe in mermaids or unicorns. But if a fisherman caught a mermaid on a net, or a unicorn was captured I would have to rethink my beliefs.
    It´s the same thing with god. There´s nothing showing me that there´s a divine being in this universe, except some anedoctal evidence. But if god almighty showed up, said boo! and made the universe work contradcting the laws of physics, I would feel obligated to believe in him. 
    Otherwise, there´s absolutely no reason for me to think I should act in a certain way or do something because this supposedly existing being think I should (specially when it generates an enormous amount of money to some people who say they speak for him).

  • phantomreader42

     Christianity is the belief that god will reward you for slandering atheists and murdering gay people. 

    If you can make shit up, so can I!

  • phantomreader42

    Christianity is a death cult for sadists, sociopaths, and pathological liars.  Rwlawoffice is living proof of this.  It keeps bearing false witness, no matter how many times it has been called out on it and corrected.  Rwlawoffice is a lying sack of shit, and nothing more.  

  • JenL

    Now if you can name an athesit or an athesit group that was equally invovled, I would like to learn that.

    An atheist group involved in supporting freedom for slaves?  Back when coming out as an atheist would get you on the hate list of just about everybody and the kill list of all sorts of groups?  Back when the statement “but the *atheists* support abolition” would have convinced an awful lot of people that abolition was immoral and wrong? 

    Yeah, you’re right, the fact that I can’t name any atheist groups would publicly advocated abolition proves we’re just not as good as you Christians….  [/sarcams]

  • Pedro Lemos

    I would say that what you don´t do because of your beliefs is not as relevante as what you actually DO. That´s pretty relevant.
    If I don´t go to churchs on sundays because I don´t believe in god, if I don´t do scuba diving in the bermudas because I don´t believe in mermaids or if I don´t form a hunt group because I don´t believe in unicorns is not gonna change a thing in the world.
    But if I do kill black people because I think the lord will be pleased, that´s a different thing.
    Your inactions cannot be judged, your actions can. And if I do things other people condemn, justifying it with only my religions views cannot be enough.

  • Piet Puk

    Rwlawoffice said:

    Atheisn is the positive assertion that there is no God.

    Great, now I have to go tell my Hindu friends that they are actually atheists..

  • Baby_Raptor

    The only one trying to shut down others’ points of view here is you. None of us have said that they shouldn’t be able to say what they want. But that same right to free speech allows us to say what we think of what comes out of their mouths.

  • TiltedHorizon

    “that really doesn’t answer the issue about the millions that have been killed in an attempt to set up a secular society”

    And how does secularism answer the question?

    “Had they kept their faith, would they have engaged in the acts they did?”

    What does the magic 8-ball say on the subject, it’s guess is as good as yours. While we are at it, what if neither were beaten or abandoned? What if their mothers pushed them to be artists instead of priests?

  • Rwlawoffice

     1. Atheists discriminate against Christians. Happens all the time.  I see it here in these discussions. 

    2. Try to justify it all you would like but it happens here ever time there is a christian who expresses a different viewpoint.  I have been called all sorts of disparaging names just because i am a christian that believes different than the atheists here.

    3. If a dictator such as Stalin is trying to build a secular state and has to stamp out religion to do so, it doesn’t matter if his political belief is that of a communist.  what matters is that he is an atheist trying to enforce state atheism and as such this is at least one of his motivations.  So I don’t think you can simply say it was not his atheism that drove him to avoid the idea that atheism leads some to commit genocide. I understand why you would want to believe that, but it simply is failed logic.

  • Rwlawoffice

    Be sure you tell the right ones.  Some Hindus believe in a God and some don’t.

  • Rwlawoffice

    I didn’t say that Jen.  What I asked for was evidence that atheists were involved in the abolitionist movement because the actions of  the Christians who were have been discounted. If you don’t have it that is fine. 

    What happens here all the time is I will point out the good Christians do and atheists will respond with yes but other Christians do bad. It is an attempt to paint all Christians with a bad brush.  I understand that you don’t want to believe that people do things for others directly because of their christian beliefs and that it is upsetting when you would have to acknowledge that these beliefs lead to great movements where the poor are fed, hospitals are opened up, universities are started, slavery is ended, the hungry are fed, and orphans are saved. But that has been the history of Christianity.  Other parts of Christian history are not good which I will readily acknowledge.  

    If there are atheists groups or individuals that have done these things throughout history I want to know about them.

  • Rwlawoffice

    Pedro, your post supports my point.  You have looked at the evidence for God and you have rejected it.  As such you have taken a position- the evidence is not good enough for me to belief.  Thus you have taken a positive position that there is no God. 

  • Piet Puk

    Most Hindus I know believe in several gods.

  • what you ask for would require things like personal correspondence from atheists that were privately exchanged between themselves and other atheist abolitionists. i don’t know of even an academic project to collect such, let alone a collection someone could just go look at. God’s Gentle People ™ are so fond of building monuments and libraries and other things lauding the actions of their heroes, but not all groups or people are. sometimes, being an atheist in public is dangerous, just as dangerous as being an out gay man showing affection can be. you really can’t blame modern atheists for lack of evidence that in all likelihood, was burned upon reading by the recipients. 

  •  1. Atheists discriminate against Christians. Happens all the time.  I see it here in these discussions.

    so? “christians” discriminate against gays, legally and with harm, all the time. i see it IN REAL LIFE WHERE IT ACTUALLY FUCKING MATTERS AND NOT SOME STUPID COMMENT BOARD WHERE A SISSY HAS HURT FEELINGS. 

    oh, excuse me. i was shouting there for a minute, sorry. must have been that homeless teen with no health insurance who got thrown out of her house when her Loving Christian Family ™ when they saw her kissing her girlfriend. i have to go take care of her soon. what are you doing this afternoon?

  • JenL

    What happens here all the time is I will point out the good Christians do and atheists will respond with yes but other Christians do bad. It is an attempt to paint all Christians with a bad brush.


    No, it’s a dismissal of your attempt to paint Christianity itself with a good brush.  Here’s the thing:  You claim brownie points for Christianity (and Christians) on the grounds that some of them fought against slavery.  But you don’t get those without balancing anti-points for the fact that those Christians were arguing with other Christians who defended slavery using the same Bible.

    And yes, some Christians have done wonderful things.  You claim that they did these things because they are Christians.  To me, that misses 2 points.  1) some of them are just genuinely good people, who would have done those really good things even if they weren’t Christian.  2) The others?  If they’re NOT doing these things because they are good people, why are they doing them?  Because the church tells them to?  Okay.  You say the church itself and all members of the church get brownie points for that.  I’ll grant that.  But only if you’re also willing to give anti-points to the church and to all members for all the BAD things that church members do, and continue to do, when the church knows about these things and doesn’t stop them.  I’ve seen too many denominations hide issues of child abuse by clergy or other people in authority – sometimes sexual abuse, sometimes other kinds of abuse.  I’ve seen too many people harmed because their church tells them to pray rather than seek medical care.  I’ve seen too many people in poverty because their church urges them to give everything to the church, combined with a message that birth control is bad and they should trust God to control their fertility.  I’ve seen too many lies spread by churches regarding the beneficial effects of birth control and condom usage.  

    You “readily acknowledge” that “parts of Christian history” aren’t so good – but you seem to put all that in the past.  You want me to acknowledge that some Christians are good people doing good things (which I do), but what I do NOT do is accept that this means that Christianity itself is the reason they do those good things.  I think that *people* are better than you think, and that *the christian church* is worse than you think.

  • Rwlawoffice

     Planning to go to a homeless shelter to take care of children and contacting the administrator of an orphanage in Acuna Mexico to plan a trip down to build a school.

    By the way, my feelings aren’t hurt.

  • TiltedHorizon

     Planning is like praying, the action of inaction.

  • Pedro Lemos

     You seen to be contradicting yourself.
    See, “the evidence is not good enough for me to believe” is completely different from “It doesn´t exist”.
    Do you believe in lake ness´monster? Or in the bigfoot? But can you go as far as to say they sure don´t exist?And yet, that´s not even the most important point. In any of the cases, not having enough evidences, or thinking it doesn´t exist, you still wouldn´t do or think anything based in this alledged existence. If god´s existence can´t be proved, what he thinks you should do to please him is even more unattainable.

  • Silentbob

    OK, I’ll correct you. 😉

    I think that’s very unlikely to be true. Ancient Egyptians painted depictions of different races that survive today. They depicted the people to the south (Nubians) as jet black with wooly or “nappy” hair; themselves as bronze or brown, clean-shaven with straight hair; and the people to the north (the “bible lands”) as bearded with curly or wavy hair and a light yellowy-beige skin color – probably an approximation to an “olive” complexion.

    These depictions are stylized to an extent (for example Egyptian women are usually shown as having a lighter skin color than Egyptian men), but it seems very likely that the Israelites were, in fact, quite light-skinned.

  • Guest

    “Brace yourself for the onslaught of Christians explaining why these Christians aren’t really Christians.”  Isn’t it better for us to come here and denounce that, than support it?  Seems like you’ll be upset with Christians no matter what is said.  😐

  • Rwlawoffice

    Wrong on both accounts.

  • The Captain

    ” Atheists discriminate against Christians. Happens all the time.  I see it here in these discussions” Are christians somehow being prevented from posting here because they are christian? I don’t think you know what the word “discrimination” actually means.

  • Dgsinclair

    Brace yourself for arguments of how choosing fringe groups to represent the whole is friendly or reasonable.

  • Dgsinclair

    This is a sorry example of faith, but certainly a poor attack on healthy faith, and little reason to comfort oneself in atheist unbelief, or tremble that one’s faith is somehow errant. Meaningless jabber by fools.

  • Autumn Wisniewski

    I cannot get over the cross lighting…what in the actual fuck?!

  • Guest

    He was a Jew from Israel, moron! He couldn’t have been White or Anglo Saxon

  • Guest

    You are an idiot. Black people were the first people to walk the planet and all races came from them!
    The ‘White man’ only dominated through lies, theft and murder to get where he is today

  • Guest

    Exactly. You are right

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