Atheists Are Still the Most Unelectable Group in America

I think we should celebrate the fact that we cracked 50%.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVXR0AKyxA4 

I find it completely amazing, considering the disturbing results of these surveys regarding public opinion towards atheists, that so many people have the nerve to suggest that atheist activism and public awareness efforts are unnecessary or unjustified.  That said, I am happy that the problem appears to be improving!

 Beat me to it.

Well, get a clue. No one wants another Mao, Pol Pot, Kim Jung Il, or Stalin running the country. I’ll take a materially corrupt candidate who mainly wants to pick my pocket over one who can slit my throat, literally, without losing sleep over it.

People don’t trust your moral compasses because they have no basis other than self interest, even if that looks largely benign. It’s much easier to become a dictator when you don’t see yourself as ultimatelyanswerable to anyone.

That’s why there have been so few religious dictators.
Hitler
Gaddafi
Amin
Mugabe
Henry VIII

Yep. I’ve been told that I should not have an opinion because the fact I lack any faith whatsoever corrupts society as a whole more than just having faith in something different that what they have faith in.

Which is why there are far more atheists in jail than the religious. Oh, wait…

 Try the “s” tag, for strikeout. It may serve your purpose just as well. 😉

I couldn’t have illustrated my point any better. Thanks!

Since our numbers ARE rising, maybe we’re on the right track.

More likely we make up for it in morality–something believers seem to have a harder time with.

Those billboards are only insulting to those who utterly refuse to engage the rational parts of their brains. And of those, I’d suggest very very few would be worth convincing anyway.

You know, there’s a valuable lesson here for all of us. That lesson is, “Don’t be a dick.” That Rennie is a dick was obvious right from the start. But when the non-religious started being dicks back to him, he’d got what he wanted.

Try not to wrestle with the pig. Even if you win, the pig still enjoyed the fight and you get mud all over you.

Yeah, like always hearing about what a sinner you are and how you’re going to Hell if you don’t believe what I believe.

I like wrestling with the pig. 

Only one of them currently, and he’s in trouble in the November election.

And Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, Kim Jung Il, they made a religion of themselves.

I’m not sure what the alternate would be.  Certainly there are varying degrees, and some of the signs are more pushy than others.  But if you don’t stick up for yourself, nothing is going to change.  I’d say it’s probably at least 90% perception (since people aren’t used to considering atheist opinions, any atheist opinion is going to come off as out of place and ‘intentionally insulting’.  And < 10% actually insulting.  People protest when we have billboards that simply advertise our existence to other atheists.

I can be much more imaginative, but I was attempting to be friendly.

I use to eat shit from religious people (this being the USA, mostly from good Christian folk). I ate plenty while in the Marine Corps. About twenty years ago I decided it was someone else’s turn to eat it. and if the subject is oppression, violence, misogyny, I really don’t it.

Actually if Sandusky claimed to be born again and washed in the blood of Jebus, people would vote for him before they’d vote for an atheist.

Morality is predicated on accountability, as you are sidestepping my question, you must feel justified in slandering me because of what someone else called you. What should I assume of your morality? If faith cannot elevate you above what I am as an atheist already capable of then what good was it?

Indeed, Rennie — there are a fair number of ugly comments coming from some of the atheists on this forum (and other forums as well), I’ll grant you that.  But that’s human nature, and is neither a religious or non-religious issue.  To pretend that the religious folks aren’t capable of equally repugnant comments is being disingenuous.  In fact, I always find it amusing reading such comments from the self-proclaimed “loving” Christians, who are capable of some pretty hair-curling epithets.  (Plus they always have the threat of eternal hell-fire to lord over the non-believers.)

Well, she’s angry all right but whether it’s all reasonable or even true is probably debatable.

There are plenty of believers in this country who are angry that atheists are so easily angered and offended at the word Christmas that schools have to call it Winter Break now while the hypocrite atheists accept the paid Christmas holiday at work.

There are plenty of believers who are angry and annoyed that tax dollars are spent to hear court cases from atheists like Newdow who want to remove the word God from the P of A simply because it offends them and gives their kid PTSD or something. Isn’t forcing one’s beliefs on others one of those big complaints we hear atheists make about religionists all the time?

I could go on endlessly but you all know the list and unlike Greta I’m not that angry.

Human nature is a poor excuse for what has been posted AND allowed to stand on this blog. Are you saying you aren’t able to rise above it? Many of you have made my point better than I could have. I challenge you to go to any of the christian blogs on Patheos and find comments with the kind of insults that are on just this one thread.

This poll just tells me the extent to which people will lie- maybe to themselves. 95% will vote for a black? Rubbish, given the substantial minority who didn’t vote for, and don’t support Obama, simply because he’s black. Way more than 5%!

It’s hard to take seriously any poll that asks people who they will vote for, since they ultimately decide that based on so many factors, conscious and otherwise.

If the Pledge originally had “under god” in it, instead of being added because of anti-communist hysteria, maybe it wouldn’t be such a problem. 

And “hypocrite atheists accept the paid Christmas holiday at work”? That makes as much sense as “if man evolved from monkeys why are there still monkeys”?

It’s a good thing your handle isn’t the analogy kid or I’d have to ridicule you.

First of all you edited my comment without noting your exclusion.

Secondly, you think he didn’t do it because he’s was offended? What, was he happy about ‘under God’ and was just being masochistic? GMAB

There are plenty of believers in this country who are angry that
atheists are so easily angered and offended at the word Christmas…

Actually, that’s mostly Jews that got upset about the focus on Christmas and had it changed to Winter Break and insisted stores and governments say “Happy Holidays.” Most atheists celebrate Christmas and have no problem with it. It’s a great celebration of Capitalism and an awesome time to gather with and appreciate family and friends by spending time with them and showing your appreciation in various ways.

see here and here.

Given that about three quarters of the US populace identifies as Christian, I think it’s safe to say that many Christians engage in a lot of “soiled speech”in my country as well.  I seem to remember my Christian father, siblings, and peers having a lot of inflammatory words for those they have disliked.  In fact, many of my family members and peers from my home town were rather rabid racists, too.  A fine group of people… and the majority of them were Christians.

Christianity has plenty of assholes.

Atheism has plenty of assholes.

The human race has plenty of assholes.

I wonder about folks living in other star systems… hmmmm.  Time and space travel will tell.

“First of all you edited my comment without noting your exclusion.”

Too fucking bad, moron.  People can read your tripe just above my comment, or didn’t you think of that, genius?

“Secondly, you think he didn’t do it because he’s was offended?”

Wow, you really ARE too stupid to argue with; I told you to 1) READ the lawsuit, and 2) fuck off.  You have done neither.

Now, I realize you still won’t understand what I’m talking about, since, in your tiny mind, people can only be “offended” or “happy.”  But that’s your problem for being so stupid.

Honestly, grow up. You’re on the internet. If you go somewhere where you’re the minority opinion, you’re going to be insulted. I used to be a Christian and I would talk to atheists online and some people were rude and others were perfectly pleasant. As an atheist, I talk to Christians online and it’s exactly the same. Some are rude and some are pleasant.
Some people are nice, some people aren’t, and pretty much anyone on the internet is willing to insult you if you provoke them.
So when you tell someone you don’t know that they obviously have no moral compass and would easily kill without a second thought, don’t be surprised if they tell you to eat shit. Do you poke at a bees nest and then get mad when they sting you?
Get over it.

Could they at least start including Scientologists in the poll, so we wouldn’t have to be at the bottom.

I guess you wanted to forget the part about Newdow claiming his child was being harmed because of being exposed to the word God since it didn’t fit your point.

His ex-wife thought he was the one who was harmful and she should know.

I have to take issue with the way Rennie characterizes atheists regarding the Christmas/Winter Holiday issue.  That whole issue was blown completely out or proportion by the right wingers (Limbaugh, Fox News), to the point where now it becomes a political statement whether you say either “Merry Christmas” or “Happy Holidays.”  I have never met an atheist who was truly “offended” by the phrase “Merry Christmas,”  and I still use it myself (just as I would wish a Jewish person “Happy Hanukkah”). The thing about “Happy Holidays” is that it is an inclusive phrase, and does not make presumptions about the person you are saying it to (of course, if that person happens to be a thin-skinned Christian, he/she will interpret the greeting as an affront to his/her religion — which it is clearly *not*). 

As for being offended by overt public displays of religion, I think that may not necessarily be the appropriate word in this context.  I suppose some people might be offended, but I would characterize my own response as being “uncomfortable” rather than offended.  I know this is very difficult for many religious people to sympathize with, and maybe you think we are being “too sensitive”; but do me a favor and imagine the following scenario:

You’re at a basketball game at your child’s public school. In large letters above the basketball court is a verse from the Koran.  The referee flips a coin, which has the inscription “In Allah We Trust.” Before the game begins, everybody says the flag salute, which includes the line “One Nation, under Islam.”

Now answer honestly: would that make you uncomfortable in any way?  Well that’s how an atheist feels every time we are confronted with public displays of religion — which are everywhere, and mostly taken for granted by the Christian majority.

I only found one instance in which Jews were involved – in Bakersfield. They objected in response to a school board changing the name from winter and spring break to christmas and easter break. Had the name always been christmas and easter break they probably wouldn’t have bothered.

Totally different situation but nice attempt at propaganda.

‘Harm’ is a legal term.And the courts declined to rule on it, finding instead that he didn’thave standing to bring the suit in the first place.

If I lived in a country (or my child attended a school) that had a different majority religion than my own I would accept it as a matter of course even if it rankled.  I tend not to be so worried about my personal issues that I have to go around forcing others to change to make me comfortable.

Now consider how uncomfortable it makes many parents to have minority alternative lifestyles forced on their very young children in public school before the parents are ready to educate them about it. All because a gay or lesbian wants to be out about their lifestyle and we wouldn’t want them to be ‘uncomfortable’ holding all that back from their little pupils would we?

We all have to put up with shit we don’t like because we don’t live on private islands.

I think you are spot on.  Though I don’t know if hate is the right word, as much as concern and suspicion.

The whole “Mao/Stalin/Pol Pot were atheist mass murders” retort is such a tired straw man from religious apologists.  Those genocidal maniacs didn’t carry out their heinous acts in the name of Atheism (as if it were some religion); the reason they outlawed religion in their respective societies was because it undermined their own Cults of Personality, their own dictatorial authority.  THEY were the gods of their own personal religions — and as such, could not tolerate competition from any other gods.  In contrast, consider the religious dictators who carry out their heinous acts *in the name of* God or Allah.  This may seem a subtle distinction to the religious apologists, but it is very real, and significant.  And it’s not just “some muslims” who are guilty, as you point out: the Catholic Church has a pretty checkered past when it comes to crimes against humanity, going back well over a thousand years. 

I’m not trying to minimize anything at all. You made a statement which I knew was incorrect, so I gave you the correct information. That’s really all there is to it.

Yes, call us crazy because we want to be able to teach our children about normal sexuality – when WE decide it’s time – before we have to tell them about the dark side.

Oh, I bet that comment would get me arrested in Quebec.

We’re tired of your tired strawmen too, like your bible scholarship.

I wish I could put off teaching my kid about religious people, but I know I can’t.  I tried to explain God to him, and he said “kind of like a superhero?”  “Yes” I said, “But the thing is, a lot of people- most people really believe in him.” 

“But that’s just stupid!” he replied.

And I know being a small minority in a large majority he’s not going to be able to make it by telling people to “eat shit”.  So I have to somehow explain to a five year old the nuance of sticking up for yourself but also being pragmatic about making it through the day.

So, if your kid knowing that gay people exist is anything like my kid knowing that adults believe in fairy tales, then I hear ya.

There are children of gay and lesbian parents in public schools. I was one of them. Conservative heterosexuals do not own the public schools. No one does. They are for all children, from all backgrounds, from all families. You expect children like I was to hide in the closet, to have teachers never acknowledge their families? All because your holy book says gay people are icky? It’s not the public school’s job to cater to your religious prejudices. Public schools have no business making LGBT students or students from LGBT feel unwelcome, stigmatized and ignored simply because your religion says they should be.

Correlation does not equal causation. Can you direct me to any studies that demonstrate that atheism is what led to the authoritarian atrocities you describe? Do you think it’s possible that authoritarianism may produce an atheist leader, but not the other way around?

Also, 
Jens Stoltenberg (Prime Minister of Norway) and Fredrik Reinfeldt (Prime Minister of Sweden) are atheist leaders who haven’t committed atrocities. How do you account for these outliers?

So when Catholics act like jerks it’s ok because they’re being attacked? So what do you call coming onto this forum and calling us selfish and immoral? By your own standards, we should be excused for our behavior. We were attacked.

If you look down one article you’ll see the drilling rig atheists donated to Ethiopians to help get them water. I’m guessing that’s just an atheist plot to get people to trust them? 

Not sure the agenda of the Good News Club is all that innocent, but let’s move on to what’s really important.

Keeping kids from getting hurt.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/one-towns-war-on-gay-teens-20120202 

Yes, let’s make sure they know how wrong Anna’s family is and see if we can get any of them to off themselves so our kids don’t catch gay.  Something like that?

(Edit: correct Anna, not Annie, sorry Anna)

Yes, because realizing that two people of the same sex can fall in love and start a family together via adoption or the help of a doctor (artificial insemination) would be terribly damaging to a child.

Love and family only become wholesome activities for children to know about if it involves two people of the opposite sex falling in love and linking genitals, or adopting, or using medical procedures to overcome fertility issues.

As a gay person, I’m more than happy to “hurt” your children with the knowledge of my existence.  I live for the day when children can grow up understanding the full diversity of humanity rather than being fed the lies of a narrow minded 1950s fantasy.  Goodness forbid that we nasty queers influence children before their conservative elders instil fear, hatred, and prejudice.

Oh, let me guess: you aren’t prejudiced.  You just care about the children and I’m a bad person for suggesting that you’re a hater.

Uh, no. The nasty comments were probably coming from the defenders of abortion  and were directed at the catholics. Since Deven didn’t bother to back up his claim that is what I assume.

If tempers got hot I can understand – it’s an emotional topic. But I’ve been on enough of those blogs that I  seriously doubt you would ever find the kind of language or insults coming from the catholics like I’ve seen from y’all on here.

“As a gay person, I’m more than happy to “hurt” your children with the knowledge of my existence. ”

I’ll decide what I’ll teach my children and when, not you. Your arrogance  says it all. I can see you all dropped the ‘tolerance’ pretense when you moved on to forcing people to ‘celebrate’ you.

Lot’s of people are doing just that because the political and sexual indoctrination has become intolerable. But you don’t care about anyone else do you? You have become the intolerant bigots now. Congrats.

Rennie, I don’t think I have to list the historical figures that have committed atrocities in the name of religion, do I? It’s a long list and a very varied one. 

But the issue is that you know that already. You must. If you do not know that there have been far more dictators and despots of the religious persuasion than atheist ones (and, by the way, every single one of the people you mentioned, created a cult of personality tailored on the best theocracies have to offer), then you are an imbecile. 

If you are aware and still make such a silly argument then it means that you are a world class troll. 
So which is it? Imbecile or malicious troll? 

As far as “self interest”, please check the many atheist charities. This site alone runs a charity donation at least once a month. I personally donate between 5 and 10% of my income to various organizations, even religious ones as long as they don’t proselytize.

You blame us for lacking a moral compass, but if your post is any evidence of your own morals, you are not such a shiny example, are you? People like you are selfish, unimaginative, obtuse and self serving. How do I know? Because I met many like you. I heard the same arguments out of their mouths and then I got to see how they live their lives.

On second thought, “eat shit” is probably the only concept you have enough brains to understand and it sums it up pretty well. i shouldn’t have wasted my time

Listen very carefully: you don’t get to take the moral high ground when you come in denigrating a whole group of people (especially one that is highly diverse) and then say that the strong reaction to your incendiary comments is evidence of moral failings of said group. If you have to do such a thing to make your point, then your point was false to begin with.

Yes, I’m an “intolerant bigot” because, as the daughter of two lesbian moms, I think it was my right to feel safe and validated in a school that my parents paid taxes to support.

It seems to me that you are the one who doesn’t care about anyone else, and you want to take out your hostility on innocent children. How nasty and mean-spirited that is. You seem to believe that the public schools should get together with you to ignore and stigmatize children from same-sex families. What total arrogance, to pretend that you own the public schools and should dictate what sorts of children are allowed to feel safe and welcomed. Public schools are for all children, not just those from Christian families, not just those from heterosexual families, not just those from conservative families.

If you don’t want your children to encounter people with different backgrounds, then by all means, send them to a private religious school. But it is crazy to whine and cry about your children meeting other children from different types of families at a school that is created for all children and paid for by all kinds of parents.

It would be ludicrous for me to send my child to public school and then complain because he came home with questions after talking to a classmate with a different racial, religious, or socio-economic background. What’s next? Banning children from Muslim families so your child doesn’t come home with “uncomfortable” questions about Islam?

There is an rather interesting pattern to conversion that is pretty consistent though certainly not universal. Theists who become atheists usually do so because they got angry at God or religion. Atheists who become theists usually do so because they felt empty and went looking for what was missing.

I used to accept that there was a God. I’ve never felt anger towards it. Why would I? They told me he was the good guy and I believed them, until I stopped believing them. After that, I could hardly be angry at a figment of the imagination, now could I?

I didn’t leave religion because I was angry at it, but because it became irrelevant.

On the other hand I am angry at people that are inspired by their religion to be misogynists, homophobes and anti-evolution. Likewise at people who hide and abet pedophiles because they need to protect the reputation of their religion more than they need to protect children.

Based on the many anecdotes I’ve read from the deconverted, anger is seldom their motivation.

What you are presenting is much more the explanation offered by theists to describe a deconversion. It’s a kind of spin doctoring, claiming that the atheist is really just pretending God doesn’t exist in order  to spite Him. They further suppose that the atheist is reacting (poorly) to a loss or injury to his/her self or a loved one.

They also like to trot out the idea that atheism is what you embrace when you want to act immorally, but that’s separate from this anger hypothesis.

I’m sure you are doing a fine job of teaching your children; in the vein of “ain’t no homos gonna go to Heaven” and “beating the gay out of kids”.

I can see you all dropped the ‘tolerance’ pretense when you moved on to forcing people to ‘celebrate’ you.

One more thing. This particular sentence is dripping in hatefulness.

“Celebrate” me? The “celebration” I recieved from my community when I was growing up consisted of being beaten up, verbally taunted, and ostracised on a regular basis. This celebration continued when I was a young adult and my father warned me that our relationship would end if I ever came out to him as gay.

So, here’s how we can “celebrate me” and others like me. How about fostering a culture that truly values love? How about working toward a world in which the bond of love between two people is celebrated for the joy that it is instead of relegating love to only being permissible between people with differing genetals? Perhaps we can also work toward creating a culture that discourages our children from bullying each other based upon the prejudices of their parents? Or does your variation of religion make it impossible to celebrate love and discourage children from beating on each other? (You’ve given every indication that this unfortunate state of affairs is most likely true.)

I hope that none of your children turn out to be gay or bi. I’m more than familiar with what it’s like to be raised by someone like you. Your “values” destroy young hearts. Your “values” bring pain. Your “values” foster prejudice and discrimination.

Rennie, sweety, did you decide to overlook the 1000 years of religious intolerance known as “the Dark Ages?” 

Also, I think you are neglecting the murderous actions of the Christians in modern times.  The internet has that information, too.  It’s not our job to find it for you.

If you believe that our names are associated with those of the “atheist” murderers that you listed, please remember that your name is associated with the negative actions of Christianity.  Also, using the same (faulty) logic, we could assume that you support slavery, are discriminatory toward gays, support the torture of adulterers, allow the killing of daughters who talk back to their parents.

PS:  Here’s a helpful hint… go look for the percentage of the population in Jail that is atheist, versus the normal population and then determine if your original argument holds any water.  Or… maybe blame our justice system for being intolerant of Christians.

I may not agree with all of the rhetoric used by my fellow atheists on this forum, but I can certainly understand their expressions of indignation… and I can appreciate the volatile responses of the opposing pro-religion side as well.  I think we would all do better to rise above the insults, but as I said in an earlier post, it’s human nature for people to lose it once in a while.

What I find tiresome about Rennie’s posts are his flimsy claims and weak responses to others; he’d rather hunker down with his straw men and cherry-picked “facts” than to engage in an honest discussion.  He has also more than once tipped his hand to show that deep inside, he is a bigot who feels threatened by some imaginary “agenda” from those he doesn’t like or agree with.  I have yet to see him make a reasonable argument in this entire forum — so like Grinch, I will no longer waste my time arguing with him.  Somebody else can futilely bang his/her head against the wall for a while. 

OK, Rennie, now it’s your turn to provide one of your predictably feeble responses to this post….

Dawkins’ emails;

http://youtu.be/v1QmhVxyVkc

Show me this pattern. I’m not seeing it.
I became an atheist because a literal Bible made no sense, I had never seen any proof for God, and logic won over. I am no more angry at God than you are angry at Zeus.
I get angry at the followers of gods, not the imaginary gods they worship.

I guess it’s my turn to call Bullshit on you, since I have a hard time believing that atheists have “forced school boards to stop using the term Christmas break.” In fact, I have a hard time believing anybody forces it most of the time. The school boards here in Utah did so on their own accord, with no coercion from anybody. I obviously can’t speak for any of them since I’m not on any school board, but I would imagine it’s because they wanted to be inclusive of Jews/Hanukkah in their terminology, just like stores and TV shows.

 Homosexuality is part of “normal sexuality”

Really? That hurts kids?
Okay, lets think about this for a moment…Kids typically learn how babies are made at a young age and are given a very basic explanation. They don’t really learn about sex until they’re older, and that’s typically a gradual process as they get more information from their friends, parents, and sex ed at school.
So when a child sees that their mom is pregnant and asks how that happens, they’ll get an explanation involving a penis, vagina, sperm, and an egg. Yuck!
When a child sees that two men or two women have had a baby, they’ll get an explanation involving adoption, sperm donation, or a surrogate mother.
With a straight couple, you have to give an explanation about sex. With a gay couple, you either have to explain adoption or explain the sperm and the egg. You don’t have to explain sex at all because sex isn’t a part of the reproduction for gay couples. Little kids don’t know that sex is recreational, so why would they need to learn about gay sex when they’re learning about babies?
Kids find sex weird or gross. But we don’t want heterosexuals to be offended. We’d rather hurt the kids with knowledge of sex than for us to just stop having sex.

So, do you get just as upset when your kids find out about the existence of people from other religions? What about people of a different race? Do you shield them from knowing the existence of all people who are different? 

You have issues, dude. Get help for them. 

And while you’re at it, get a Fucking clue. You have no idea what you’re talking about. 

You asked for a specific reaction. You got it. That might prove your point in your mind, but that’s not reality. That’s just us giving you what you asked for. 

Go be superior somewhere else. You’re not wanted here. 

Also, ”
There are plenty of believers in this country who are angry that atheists are so easily angered and offended at the word Christmas that schools have to call it Winter Break now while the hypocrite atheists accept the paid Christmas holiday at work.”

Christmas was one of may holidays that Christianity ripped off from Pagans. It’s not YOUR holiday. And I’m really sorry that the fact that there are people that aren’t Christians others you, but the world doesn’t revolve around you guys. Maybe if you accepted that, and stopped getting your Fucking panties in  a knot every time someone challenges your privledge in the name of having their rights protected, you’d be a happier and less bitter person. 

Prove that they’re “intentionally insulting,” as compared to insulting to people who get offended when seeing anything that disagrees with them. 

A child seeing something you disagree with does not constitute harm. Hate to burst your bubble…

Nor does a kid seeing something that they might not understand. That happens in everyday life. 

If you don’t like gays, more power to you. But stop lying about us already. You’re only hurting yourself. 

 Every time christians pull this bullshit, they are admitting that their faith cannot survive by any means other than slandering or murdering anyone who dares question their lies.  Rennie, you are a lying sack of shit and a Nazi.  Fuck off.

 No, Rennie, no one here honestly expects you to even know how to read. 

I would love to hear from people why they wouldn’t vote for an atheist.  What exactly is it about atheists that they find so objectionable?  Certainly, no one can say that in the United States, atheists have been a force of evil.  Seems like atheists are being viewed as some kind of bogeyman — based on stereotypes and misunderstandings.

As a liberal Christian, I would much rather vote for a liberal atheist than a Christian Rightwinger. 

too bad one of the greatest presidents in history was atheist( Thomas Jefferson)

andthe guy on our 100 dollar bill was one too (Benjamin Franklin)