A Setback in the War on Christmas

The issue is that the nativity was allowed to be displayed. As for the FFRF sign I would like to see a different sign placed at a different time of year. Let it stand on it’s own, not as a counter to the Christmas displays.

Offering what amounts to a rebuttal of the nativity scene was the problem. They should have asked for the city to follow the law and not engage in promoting any religion. Instead, the city offered to promote any religions the public wanted. I would say both parties were wrong in this case and the judge should have recognized that.

Your sign showed disrespect toward God believing religions. If you want people to respect your beliefs, respect theirs. The Mayor was right.

I do think the message gave the city and the court ammunition against it. While I do agree with the contents of the message, I also agree that legally speaking it cannot considered solely a “celebration” of the season.

What this means to me is that a better and more specific display needs to be created. Not just the message, but the delivery needs to have as high an artistic value as possible. 

We atheist take the chance on Christmas to celebrate our families, friends, our planet the universe and reason. That should be good enough to create something compelling that can stand right next to a nativity scene and forward our positive message. 

Our display needs to make the christian one look inadequate. It should not be that hard.

I think you have a point, the problem being is that it’s a two-way street. I’ve not heard a whole lot of respecting of the non-religious on the part of the religious. Just take a look at the figures showing how atheists are less trusted than criminals, and that’s not necessarily because of stunts like these, but even if it were, how this is worse than criminality just shows an unjust bias.

I personally think that government resources should not be used to promote any religious position, and granted, or anti-religious position for that matter.  It’s something that taxpayers shouldn’t have to pay for.

  I’d think a display of the “Ascent of Man” with each step dressed as Santa Claus.

Yeah, or a FSM display on Sept 19, talk like a pirate day.

Seems like a massive misstep on FFRF’s part, principled perhaps, but lacking in political savvy. Personally, I think that an “Atheists for Jesus.” theme would have been better – it would have gelled with Christian presumptions about Winter being Jesus’ season, but challenged them also with respect to it’s content. Further, a discussion of the Nazarene may just be the best way of starting a dialog (to say nothing of the hue of ecumenicalism).  

A tagline like, 

“With or without God, Jesus had something to say.

With or without God, have a Merry Christmas.”

But y’know, better. 

It’s just exercising free speech. It’s clear and to the point. (angels, demons, hell and heaven are all, to be fair,ridiculous ideas)

I like it.

http://goo.gl/d538O

Personally ive been surprised at how fair and well balanced most of the reply s have been, well done.   

I have a suggestion:

 Disrespect of a violation of the Constitution is not an excuse for their having violated it in the first place. Please try again.

Actually…DG has it right.  Atheists should pick a day and do something positive to celebrate your beliefs. Part of the problem with your movement is that don’t have much to celebrate except the occasional court case where christians are shown to be the bigots you believe them to be. Celebrate your beliefs for what they are and what they mean to you.

 No, Coyotenose has it right. Christmas is a holiday that was “stolen” from non-Christians… pagans mostly. It *IS* a non-Christian holiday to start with. All one needs to do is tell the story of where all those holiday traditions come from to destroy the notion that it is a Christian holiday.

Atheists choosing 25th of December to celebrate reason and to acknowledge that belief is wrong is absolutely correct. Pretending to not want to offend is hubris. It’s already been shown that they will be offended if all that is said is “atheists exist.” It is not possible to not offend them.

So go on, tell them where their precious tree comes from, and yule log, and twinkling lights, and cards, and presents. Tell them how many other deities were reborn at that time of the year; what the three kings means; why the Romans would not hold a census in winter, the whole lot of it. Explain it to them. Let them then argue with the facts, the historical facts. Why it is that Jesus had to be born in Bethlehem to fulfil prophecy, and why that prophecy is wrong anyway.

Don’t simply tell them they are wrong, shove their noses in it. Tell them this is their crap. Let them explain it then. Give them a museum of winter holiday celebrations and see what they do then.

Don’t tell them they are wrong, just demand an explanation for all they have done to steal this holiday season from the rest of us.

 Maybe we shouldn’t be – maybe someone could design one that uses an artist’s rendering of what actual ancestral species looked like.

Your unbridled hatred of religion in general, and Christianity in particular, is a sad thing, and something I try not to apply to most atheists.    It’s rather pitiful actually.

A movement that basically says we are all just biological life forms, and meaning and morality are just illusions we make up in order to get some order out of life while we pass on our DNA before finally dying and rotting in the earth, is hard pressed to put that on a Hallmark card. That’s why atheists tend to borrow heavily from the moral traditions of the cultures around them.  Which is understandable.  It’s why they don’t just shrug their shoulders when a loved one dies, even though they know all illusions of meaning are simply a contrivance on the part of the human animal in order to make sense of the universe, in many ways no different than the contrivance that is religious belief.  It’s why atheists usually wade into a conversation with the assurance of moral absolutes that would shame a southern King James Only Baptist preacher.  It’s why the greatest thing about atheists is that so few actually act out the logical ramifications of their atheism. It’s also why so much of modern atheism is more or less a mock-up of the religions they so proudly hate, even to near evangelistic tracts and tent revivals (I’m actually waiting for the day).  A brief reading of this blog will demonstrate that.  It’s sad, but it’s understandable.  That’s why I tell my boys not to get angry, just understand the limits that constrain most atheists (though not all, as some of the more intelligent and reasoned atheists can demonstrate – not the clown circus of modern atheists and their rock-star spokespeople). 

My guess is the FFRF want to get their sign displayed, knowing it is such anathema to religious people that the city will then choose to have no religious displays on public property, which is how it should be.  I don’t want the FFRF display, or any of the others, on public property.

DG, I do have a strong aversion to religion, and this is not a sad thing. I don’t like religion because I care about the earth, and many of the people (and other creatures) that live on it. For every “good” deed you can use to defend religion, I can name an “evil.” This is not to say that the world would be free from bad things without religion, but much of the suffering … the wars, greed, pestilence, hatred, fear, bigotry, ignorance and violence … could be eliminated. There is nothing pitiful about wanting a better place for my children and their children, and your children for that matter. And for the record, I could care less if people believe in a god/gods, it is what they do with that belief that scares me. As they say, “If you can hate the sin, but not the sinner, I can hate the belief, but not the believer.”

There is way too much that is wrong in this comment, the smugly superior tone notwithstanding. Somewhere, Guy Fawkes is crying in the light of a thousand burning straw men.

 Honestly even just the 1st and last sentences would be an amazing board.

While you are very confrontational in your description of atheism (and partly misguided, might I add), I tend to agree with most of it. Many atheists tend to take life down to it’s bare form – Such that we are just flesh and bone, and there’s no meaning in anything; That everything boils down to hormones and body functions. While somewhat true, it’s not really so. This is why I have such a hard time saying “I’m an atheist,” because on the whole, I don’t really agree with many of the atheistic viewpoints.

I don’t believe in any gods, however, so that’s where the line is drawn. I also want to add that not only atheism, but just about every religion draws its ideas of morality and such from the cultures around them. After all, it’s hard to say if any religion has been around since the beginning of time, and Christianity obviously borrows many Roman teachings of morality (You shall not kill, you shall not steal, etc). I did not get those morals from any Christian source, however, so they are not fundamentally “Christian values” so to speak. 

I don’t think it’s wrong for atheists to be “out” and in public about their atheism, nor do I think it’s wrong to put their own displays up on Christmas. But really, they should pick their words more carefully and try to find a leg to stand on, rather than pulling down others. 

Maybe, then, a simple “happy holidays from your friendly local neighborhood atheists”  🙂

brilliant!  and Nifty is right – it’s a GREAT “holiday” card.  Usually, I send out “Peace” cards, with no reference to any particular holiday (or any GENERAL one…) 

Thank all of you for your encouragement. I’ve decided to publish this tomorrow at 3:00 PM Central time as its own post so more people can see it.  

Project more. It’s all you have…All the “facts” you put forth are wrong.

I hate this sign, and I hate the fact that it has become a standard even more. It’s dickish, confrontational and all-around not helpful. It’s perfectly posible to celebrate reason in a non-religious context that still is obviously atheist without making a point of giving the proverbial finger to everyone else.

I wholeheartedly agree.  I’ve always hated this particular sign.

Once again, I think the sign that Seattle Atheists put up a couple of years ago is infinitely better and it reads:

“In this holiday season, let us remember
that kindness, charity and goodwill
transcend belief, creed or religion.”

yes,yes it is

 Maybe you should try and not be a dick.

 ” meaning and morality are just illusions”

Since when does Atheism say that?????? We don’t deny meaning and morality exist, we say we don’t get it from papa smurf, sorry I mean god.

I’ll have to disagree with you on that. And, by the way, it is ENTIRELY constitutional to fly the confederate flag on any day you please. I don’t personally care about anyone’s political correctness here…fail to defend the rights of those who offend you and you will soon lose your own.

“I prefer a more open dialogue”, i.e. granting religion the respect it has never earned.

We don’t hate religion. We do, however, despise deliberate ignorance. When you say that atheists hate god/religion you’re still attempting to validate it….that might work in illiterate, third world countries but not here.

I completely agree. It seems like an endorsement of religion in and of itself to me regardless of whose displays are present. There should be none.

 The point is not to have a pleasant little display that can sit next to the nativity and not offend anyone.  FFRF would prefer that there are NO religious displays on government property.  If the city wants to put a nativity scene, then FFRF will seek to include their sign as a form of silent protest.  I say good for them!  Occasionally, we need to make others uncomfortable to make our views heard.

 Atheists did not declare a war on Christmas.  That is the term that Fox News likes to use when atheists press for the separation of church and state.  The war is being waged by religious zealots against the Constitution.  As for a war on Christians … give me a break.

I notice that Buddhism is becoming the go-to religion of choice for many atheists.  That said, Buddhism as many filter through Western values – especially atheist values – is not exactly Buddhism.  I had the opportunity to attend a lecture years ago (in the 90s), in which a Buddhist from Vietnam was lamenting how we tend to approach Buddhism with all the consistency of a salad bar.  The essence of Buddhism can have its advantages, but when atheists start lauding it versus religions they reject, they become no different than the religions they condemn for, among other things, rejecting religions they disagree with.

I love it!  Religions are wrong because they hate other beliefs!!  Because what they should do is hate all religions!   Thus continues the logical train wreck that is modern atheism.

That’s not what Buddhism is at all.  Perhaps you should learn about others worldviews before speaking on them.  Try google.
Atheism is simply a lack of belief in gods. Nothing more, nothing less.  And on accountability, you’re showing ignorance of both atheists and theists.

DG, how about the idea that evolution endows social animals like people with tendencies toward certain social rules of conduct that we call morality.  That is not objective morality, nor is it “people making it up.”  

Also, are the rules of baseball “real?”

You’re so ignorant and wrong, that it ceases to be funny anymore and is just plain sad.

We don’t “make up” notions of right and wrong. Many of us tackle morality the same way that you do.

For example… you know that slavery is wrong, correct? Where do you get that morality from? It certainly isn’t the bible that you have said before (IIRC) that you believe. Slavery is condoned there.

So, how do you know slavery is wrong? From a careful consideration of the well-being of others and how our own decisions impact other people around us, just like the rest of us.

I think the FFRF is wrong here. The sign is not a positive reflection of what our movement is trying to convey. Just like this cannot be a nation of all Christians it cannot be a nation of all atheists. In order for us, religious and not, to participate in the celebration of that time of year, be it Christmas, Chanukah, Ramadan or the solstice or whatever, it needs to be done in an inclusive and positive manner. To show respect is how we earn respect. This sign is disrespectful and does nothing to forward our position. Yes it’s “legal” but that doesn’t make it right. 

No, this isn’t about respecting beliefs. It’s about respecting RIGHTS. There’s a difference.

I think it’s a very heartwarming sign, tastefully done.  I suppose it’s the last sentence that was considered most offensive, but when you display stuff from religions, isn’t there always the implicit threat “If you don’t believe in this, we’re justified in treating you badly?”

 …. SO ITS HEAT DOES DOES NOT ….
Proof reading error.
The double “does” are that beginning and end of their respective lines.  The brain tends to filter out the extra word in such circumstances.  Please fix this.

Maybe if they had left out the bit about hard hearts and enslaved minds… But that still wouldn’t make people like DG happy. Oh, no, not fair to give the finger to “millions” on their “special day”, when you get the finger flipped at you the other 364 days of the year.
I think some people have trouble differentiating between “friendly” and “doormat”. You can be friendly and yet refuse to let others wipe their asses on you by claiming that you “hate” religion.
As if Religion has done nothing to earn anybody’s hatred? Poor, poor, religion in general and Xianity in particular. Ignore the blood dripping off its hands, please…

First, it’s not a war. It’s called push back. Christians are all to happy to tell the rest of us that winter celebrations are all about THEIR deity and that we should shut up and be happy and celebrate with them, let them push their false traditions into every aspect of public life. 

It matters not whether you like conflict, conflict is being brought to you by theists… in every city, every day. If you want to be a good little compliant minority who has no rights but is told they’re equal… well, you go ahead with that plan. I’m not going to choose submission to mob rule simply because YOU or any contrite non-theist doesn’t like conflict.

Do Christians ‘deserve’ the push back? Yes, why yes they do. They call this a war on their holiday and every year we have to listen to them complain about ‘why can’t they just be quiet… if they don’t like Christmas they can just sit at home and leave the rest of us alone’ and other ignorant abusive rants similar to that. It’s not simply this church or that person that does it, the MSM even plays that up to get ratings. 

It’s straight up abusive. If any racial group were treated this way it would be called racism without hesitation. As it is, it is bigotry and should be called out… each and every time. Are you saying that bigotry is okay? When they start complaining that the Menorah has no place in the public square, what then? And damn, but Ramadan is way to close to Christmas, that has to be stopped too. 

Am I angry? Yes, because I not only have to deal with bigotry from believers in all parts of my life, but I have the joys of having to deal with your type…. the kind that keeps the waters muddied so it is never clear that the bigotry is not acceptable. Thanks for nothing

The worth of money (whether paper or gold) is also a social construct, and yet mere subjective agreement as to its worth is sufficient to build economies on.  Social agreement, whether phrased as religious edict or not, is the underpinning of morality; it changes with society (else god gives different followers different absolutes; they certainly disagree) and works more or less well as a function of how well a culture using those rules thrives.

Morality is made up. Money is made up.  Both are made up because they are useful.  Morality does not need to be handed down from a god, in order to be worth following; indeed, knowing where morality comes from allows us to respond appropriately to changes, without the awkwardness of explaining how part of our moral code is literal and part metaphorical, and how god was serious about gays but not about shellfish (or vice versa).  

Thinking morality is god-given has consequences; if you have been taught that morality is god-given, and come to realize you’ve been lied to, you may feel no reason to be moral.  If you know from the start that morality is a social construction, acting morally does not depend on believing in something that cannot stand up to scrutiny.

For the last fucking time, atheism is not a belief.

Thank you for pointing that out. That’s the effect of my dyslexia, haste, and late night fatigue combined. Disqus is being a pain in the neck and not letting me or Hemant replace the image with a corrected version. I’ll keep working on it.

This afternoon at 3:00 PM Central time, the corrected version will be featured in its own post.

This is beautiful, Richard! It portrays so well what we atheists believe while maintaining a positive vibe for the winter holidays. I live a few miles away from Warren and am hoping FFRF chooses to use your sign there (and  perhaps in neighboring Centerline, too – last year they had a nativity displayed outside city hall). I would love to see such a beautiful message displayed!

I live in Warren. I thought the display could use some tweaking. While I wish there were no displays up at all the one from FFRF doesn’t need to be the way it is. There are more important church/state issues (to me) than mangers in city hall. Also, Fouts just disallowed it because he knows Warren-tucky voters wanted him to.

I remember the news made the poor old man from FFRF out to be like Unabomber – I really felt sorry for him on the news.

Best to just admit it’s all made up and move on.

Do it DG! 🙂   You’ll find living with integrity is sooooo much easier when you don’t have that nasty cognitive dissonance to deal with constantly 🙂

Great post, Cuttlefish 🙂

I get what you are saying. With Christianity and religion in general so imbedded in our culture, I just want to see atheism recognized. It’d be a good start to finally getting us on even ground down the road.