Canadian School’s Solution to Daily Prayer: Just Put Non-Christians in a Separate Classroom

I suppose we should be grateful they’re not making the non-Christians wait outside in the cold while the Christians engage in their rituals. 

If you contact them it may be worth noting these, Matthew 6:5 & 6:6.

I’ve never understood why people feel its so important to have prayer in schools, especially when it’s clear that so many object to it.

It seems like the main motivator is the same thing that motivates so much of primate behavior – the desire to dominate others, to have our group triumph over the other groups.

The actual issue isn’t as important as keeping the other groups in their place and letting everyone know what apes are in charge of this forest.

I wonder if they realize how much of their behavior is simply more evidence supporting evolutionary theory.

I can see how a sane person might consider this a step in the right direction. They’re acknowledging that making people pray isn’t necessarily a good thing. Next step is to allow children to opt out, then several steps down the line they get to just not bothering with school prayers at all.

“…pray at home and then use school time for teaching.”

It’s a fucking crazy idea, but it might just work. 🙂

So when are they going to start pinning
yellow stars on all non-Christian students?

I am appalled and shocked as a
Canadian and an Afghanistan
vet to see a Canadian PUBLIC school segregate children based on their
religious or non-religious beliefs, which was one of the attitudes that we were
trying to change in Afghanistan.

Is there not enough bullying in our
schools? Now they want to separate kids so everyone now knows who is different,
let the children pray at home or in their places of worship, leave schools for
education, not indoctrination and bring Alberta into the modern
world.

ekohle@sturgeon.ab.cadkrieger@sturgeon.ab.ca 
bgray@sturgeon.ab.ca 
sporter@sturgeon.ab.ca 
All failed, the others seemed to work. I’m looking for alternate e-mail addresses now will post if I find any

Wot ‘ee sed. 

Fekking religious shite is forced on my boy in his primary school. I’ve no problem with him learning about it, but the second he’s being told to BELIEVE in that shite I’ll be over there giving a one-way conversation to the headmistress.

I hope that many of the Christian students opt for the non-praying classroom as well, either in solidarity or at least to escape the daily tedium of having to listen to rote recitation that sucks all meaning out the prayer.

They’d save a lot of school time by just not doing it. A couple minutes a day adds up, and teachers are likely to start teaching right after the prayer and not wait for the other kids. As well as, depending on how harsh they are about the separation, it might be hard to be an in-the-closet Atheist. 

I am from Germany… we did try seperating people who had different belief systems into certain camps some time ago. Wasn’t a good idea.
In my opinon it’s really not a good idea to have all the students there in time, then seperate them and let the one half pray and let the other half wait.
Praying in school is IMHO nonsense… but if they really want to do it: just let the christian students arrive 10 minutes early and pray in the gym or somewhere… and then 10 minutes later they all arrive at their classrooms together.

Most schools already have a classroom for non-Christians. In my school it was called the “gifted students class”, but different schools use different names.

The problem here is that the school wants to let them get back together after morning prayers. I say keep ’em separate, so the dogmatic little theists don’t hold the smart kids back.

Tell that to the Xtians.

I’ve read this blog through a few times.  I was directed to it by my teen son who is an atheist.  I am a Christian but agnostic.  I grew up attending schools of opposite faith to myself and had no difficulty excusing myself from prayers that did not fit or remaining silent through them.

I am not understanding the frustration shown by the writer here to this solution.

You don’t understand the frustration of government sanctioned segregation based upon a lack of belief in one particular religion, and preferential treatment by the state for those belonging to that religion?

 So, DG, you can’t bring yourself to see a problem with segregation?  If all the christan students were being herded into a separate room you would be on your way to set fire to the school.  But when people who aren’t members of your cult are treated like second-class citizens, your brainwashing makes it impossible for you to see anything wrong with it.

YOU are the one who only cares about your own cult, not any other human being.

 FWIW, I would like to think that the Christians in the school would step up and say something to get this changed so the non-Christian children aren’t treated this way.  But then I would like to think that atheists and other non-Christians would then say ‘thanks, now how can we work this out so everyone is happy.’

Like maybe replace the broadcast prayer with a moment of silence so everyone can pray or contemplate in their own way?  How would you feel about that as a solution?

That’s the problem with having things your way for so long.  You begin to see it not so much “your way” as “the way”.  And even if it’s not “your” way, it still becomes “the” way.

I’m also curious what faith it was that was ‘opposite’ to yours.  Slightly different perhaps, but surely not ‘opposite’ if you’re a Canadian Christian.  See, that’s “the way” again.  A different version of Christianity automatically comes out as “opposite”.

(I really should settle on a “quote” ‘pattern’)

If the policy was that silence was appropriate where the topic of religion was concerned, I could live with it.  Just make sure the door swings both ways (that is, no ‘Jesus is a myth’ shirts and the like).  Also, no ‘day of reason’ unless reason includes religion.  Keep the playing field equal, that’s what I think.

 Oh, so now that your cult can no longer get away with trampling everyone else underfoot, NOW you pretend to want an equal playing field?! 

What *I* don’t understand is why christian faith is so pitifully weak that it can’t survive without constant government endorsement. 

I’m not entirely sure you were paying attention to my question, but in any case, do you know who opposed the proposal that the school day start with a moment of silence so every student who wanted to pray could say their own prayer?  And those who didn’t want to didn’t have to listen to one over the school’s speaker system?

In your world black is white and up is down. In reality tyranny is allowing the majority to rule over the minority, i.e. allowing Christians to subjugate everyone else.

You are NOT oppressed. Get off your damn cross

Even without a strict separation of church and state and its anomalous school system, Canada is still a far more secular country than the US. So is almost every other western country.

I actually quite like the Lord’s Prayer. I enjoy how the classroom or gymnasium takes on the character of a Borg cube, as it resonates with mindless solidarity. It is really charming.

Based on the story above, I understood it to be typical of a student/parent who don’t share those beliefs and objecting, wishing any allowance for them in the public school to be eliminated.  Precedence, you know.

There is nothing in the tone or tenor of your response that doesn’t suggest that there are those who secretly pine for the good old days of Soviet approaches to dealing with ‘death cults’ and ‘brainwashing’.  Or was it the opiate of the masses?  No, it’s not religion that has been the evil over time.  It’s that too many hated those who didn’t conform to their religious dogmas.  Replacing it with a hate and contempt of all religion, as the tone of your comment strongly suggests, shows why eliminating religion from the upper strata of society didn’t lead to a utopian paradise after all.

Er… no, in most places, the gifted students class is the term used for *advanced* classes, not remedial.

“But keep it even, and keep it equal.”

Wow, that sounds REALLY familiar for some reason… I wonder if there was a similar policy down in the US around sixty years ago or so…

Has there EVER, in the entire history of the planet, been a SINGLE religous apologist who was physiclaly capable of telling the truth? You are living proof that christianity is a religon of lies, because every single word out of your vile mouth is a lie. 

…So if you were forced to go to a high school that started every day with prayers to Allah, and your only options were either to silently endure every day, or be segregated like cattle into a separate group, you wouldn’t have a problem with that? Really?

DG, I know you’re incredibly stupid and a pathological liar, but did you really think anyone would fall for your bullshit red-baiting and forget that you are demanding government endorsement for your religion?  Are you willing to admit that your faith is too weak to survive without government-enforced segregation of anyone with a brain?

If you don’t pray in my schools, I promise not to think in your churches.

Jerry Steinberg

This has gotten a little carried away. I can concede that his original point has at least some merit. I don’t ultimately agree with it, but it mirrors conventional thinking. He has since digressed. You have called him an incredibly stupid, hypocritical, lying sack of shit, cult follower.  Also, you have used up your daily ALL-CAPS limit.

Great.  Way to single out groups and pit them against one another, Alberta.  Why not just paint them different colors….wait, that kind of segregation was tried too, and it didn’t improve race relations one iota, did it?  Come on, the Christian kids can pray all they want at home; they can genuflect and clasp their hands together and talk to themselves all the way to school; the Muslim kids can carpet-munch at home or on public sidewalks or whatever, and the Transcendental Meditationalists can bend themselves into pretzels while waiting for the school bus…but once on school grounds everybody should just be people focusing on education.  Don’t like it?  Need more religion in your kids’ day?  Homeschool.  Send ’em to private religious schools.  Public schools are for the public, not for your particular brand of religion. 

The point is that you’re going a bit overboard in your insults. DG is an idiot, yes, but insulting him all the time loses its impact. Save it for when he says something truly silly and outrageous.

 You are certainly right, it’s just like the constitution. 

Are they only accommodating Christian students this way? What if Muslim or Jewish kids wish to pray in school as well? Do they get their own special classroom? 

I grew up in that town, and it’s not surprising they would pull something like this. 

Oh, it’s just like religious instruction in our Australian schools! Kids can opt out and go do some lonely reading in the hallway, often unsupervised, while the Christian kids get to play games, learn about the bible and sing! How typically bullshit.

Just yesterday I watched this video in this blog and nobody seemed to comment on part of the debate:

http://youtu.be/Wd2F5mwAWG4?t=1h18m6s

So the same solution is being used nearly 50 years later.

The lack of progress is exhausting.  (And if someone else noticed the correlation between this post and yesterday’s, I am sorry if I’ve repeated your observation.  I obviously overlooked it unintentionally.

First of all, a big Thank You for all the comments, tweets & facebook messages in support of our fight here regarding this issue.
You can follow this issue by following me @According2Luke:disqus  or the FaceBook group 
https://www.facebook.com/groups/APUPIL/  I appreciate all the support both locally & internationally.FTR: I think Hemant misunderstood the context of Paula Simons quote “It’s a step in the right direction”. She was comparing the old policy of forcing everybody to observe the Lord’s Prayer with the new policy of segregation the kids. Paula has been a great supporter of our cause and has my utmost respect.
The issue is at heart a very simple one. We have in Canada the Charter of Rights & Freedoms which accords Freedom of religion, freedom from religion & freedom from coercion together with equality for all (relative to this issue).
In 1988 in Zylberg V Sudbury Board of Education the Ontario Court of Appeal found that the regulation allowing the Lord’s Prayer ” infringed religious freedom because schools could use only the Lord’s Prayer rather than a more inclusive approach. It was argued that the exemption provision effectively stigmatized children and coerced them into a religious observance which was offensive to them.”

The Ontario Court of Appeal was persuaded by the argument that the need to seek exemption from Christian exercises is itself a form of religious discrimination. The judges described as “insensitive” the position of the respondents that it was beneficial for the minority children to confront the fact of their difference from the majority.So it is clear, it has been ruled to deny children their freedom from religion and as such the practice has ceased across Canada. Except in Alberta, where this provision from the 1905 School Act still allows for it. It got rolled into the Alberta Constitution and as such supersedes the Canadian Charter.

So the issue is not that it is illegal. It appears it is (Although there is the potential for a Charter challenge on the grounds that they can still perform the prayer, but the process must still meet the Charter. We will see.)

The issue is that given a panel of senior Canadian judges ruled this way on this issue, why would a Public school board then go and enact such a policy. And this is our frustration. We are not trying to remove the optional Christian religion classes from the school. We are not trying to remove Christmas. We don’t even want to stop the Christians from praying.

We simply asked if we could not segregate our children for the purpose of worship, and specifically so that only one faith could pray. We suggested an inclusive moment of personal reflection 5 days a week & that the Christians could pray out loud in a group in their religion class a further 3 days a week. It is sad that this seemingly fair & inclusive option was rejected.

Apparently, only Christians praying 5 days a week out loud in groups is the only acceptable solution.

Again, I Thank You for your support & encourage you to follow me on twitter @According2Luk:disqus e for further updates. We also have a petition at 
http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/inclusive-secular-public-schools.html 
Sincerely, Luke fevin

Well, nature favored me with a high IQ and an analytical way of thinking. My parents favored me with a non-religious upbringing and encouraged scholarship. I was fortunate to attend good schools (with gifted student programs). Beyond all these things, mostly matters of luck, the rest I did myself.

Joshdcarp, in answer to your question, no I would not.  I have attended worship with people of other faiths, including Buddhism, and have no difficulty with that idea.  If I was in a community where the prevailing faith was Muslim I would stay silent as those who wanted to pray said there prayers.  I believe that is what shows respect for anothers faith. I learned to do that at the age of six.  It is not that hard. 

With regard to comments about brainwashing I’d like to know what kind of brainwashing someone has who has lived her life as an atheist for a decade and is currently agnostic. 

Au-catboy, the most vehement bullies I’ve known have been atheists who are adament in their non-faith.  

Our constitution has enshrined within it the idea that gov’t has to be inclusive of all religions, not exclusive. Recognize and acknowledge differences but also live and let live.

Our constitution has enshrined within it the idea that gov’t has to be inclusive of all religions, not exclusive.

Exactly!  So instead of having one prayer come over the speakers, when not let each student pray (or not) in their own way with 30 seconds of silence?

“How are Christian parents in the area ok with this?! “…They’re OK with it because their kids still get to do a morning prayer, instead of being bullied by a single parent whose feathers are ruffled because his kids are exposed to prayer.

You are so awesome!!!! tell us more cool stuff about yourself!

You may have mis-read the story.  ‘tough guy’ is far from the only parent who has an issue with a 2/3 majority pushing around a 1/3 minority.  This isn’t a ‘one parent’ issue, not that the wrong thing is ok if the minority is small enough.

This is just repugnant. We may have our problems in the U.S., but at the very least this would clearly be illegal here. You guys need to amend your constitution.

 There’s no “might” about it.  It seemed more difficult for me to “come out” as Atheist rather than as homosexual.  After all, at least if I was gay I could still believe in “god”, right? 

Here’s a thought, if a group of Christian students want to pray, how about they do it at home?

  Wow, sounds like that kid made admirable efforts to figure out his opinions & follow his conscience. Props to people who can separate “what’s best for me” from “what’s the Right thing to do” like that.
  How can even parents who liked having the prayer want it so bad that they condone this system which will increase the amount of cliquiness, bullying, feelings of alienation… things that are already bad enough?
  I would love it soooo much if everyone, when they get the form to declare whether their kid will go to the prayer, whether Christian or not, just writes “My beliefs are nobody’s business” across the thing.
  

FYI, we have publically-funded schools that push Catholicism in every hour of every subject. Many of us feel that there should be ONE public school system, but that is another topic. My point is that the intensely Bible-loving folks have a choice of sending their kid to a FREE school where their kid will be indoctrinated for them at the taxpayer’s expense. The PUBLIC half of the split system is supposed to be for “the rest of us”.
It just blows my mind that there are people fighting so hard to have Christianity play a role in the Public School when they already have the entire Catholic School System.

Ask some of the locals on the pro-prayer side of this issue where they expect the nonchristians of their community to go if the Public School is going to be pushing Christianity. Know what they say? “They should move. This is a Christian community.” This isn’t hypothetical- that actually is what many of them have publically said. They want to run the minorities out of town, essentially. 
Sadly, here in Alberta we have a big problem with minority-hating rednecks. But don’t hate the whole province! There are also people here like Luke Fevin who are willing to stand up to the bullies and fight for justice! So there’s hope for the province! 

DG, yours is an argument I’ve seen many times (as a person from the region of this school). I think your mistake lies in thinking Luke Fevin & his group want to force others to do something. He started fighting his school when he noticed his girl was being gradually converted against his best efforts, because she was being forced to observe Christian practices. He only wanted to shield his OWN child from indoctrination. Of course you would not want people from other backgrounds trying to convert YOUR child to their faith, right? He wasn’t trying to stop anyone else from having control over their own child’s upbringing either. His suggestion was for a minute of silent reflection as a group (no need to label or segregate anyone) where those who wanted to pray could, & those who wanted to think about earthly things like goals or promising themselves to be good could just do that. Very inclusive!  And of course the school (though there are MANY 100% christian schools in the area & this is supposedly the non option!) offers Christian indoctrination as an “Option” class, so even if the prayer were cancelled we’d still be a long way from eliminating any trace of Christianity from the school.
Never mind that there are a lot of hours in a day, and even if there were zero church in our schools, Christian families would still be able to attend Christian events every day of the year, whether it be church/sunday school, or church social groups that do crafts or have potlucks. What does it cost the Christians if their lifestyle is not pushed in schools? Other groups practice their culture completely outside of schools, be it a second-generation immigrant kid learning her Grandma’s language; Native kids being taken out fishing to talk about “the old ways” of their ancestors; or in my family, we have some “fitness nuts” who are training their toddlers to be experts about healthfood, stretching, and exercise…everyone’s got their own path to follow! I really wish you’d answer this for me DG: We all pursue our interests in our free time- why isn’t that enough? Why are Christians so adamant that they do their Christian stuff during school?
Since prayer’s usually silent, kids could actually be praying discretely just about all day long in school if they chose. Unless teachers are given mind-reading devices, no culture can ever truly BAN prayer in public schools. So this issue isn’t really about stopping prayer. It’s about stopping group, out-loud, teacher-led prayer. Why do Christians feel it’s their RIGHT to have this ritual? Why is it so important their kids are made to pray aloud & in unison, during school? Why aren’t private prayers enough to get a kid through the 6h or whatever they’re in school?  
So I repeat- the goals of this battle have never been to deny christians their freedoms. It is about preventing Christianity being FORCED on families that don’t want it. 

I actually had a favourite aunt who was an agnostic United Church member. The opinion I got of the organisation through her was positive (and I’ve faced a lot of discrimination over the years at the hands of Christians, so I’m not prone to positive impressions of any church). If you were from the United Church, you have been immersed in “Ned Flanders type Christians”, people who want to be NICE & tolerant like Jesus, so maybe you don’t know how hate-driven more fundamentalist churches are. In rural Alberta I have always encountered tons of people whose Christianity is an excuse to feel superior & heap scorn on others, much the same motives that drive racists. There’s little hope of the Christians in this school voluntarily compromising (They rejected the minute of silence- can you guess why? I can’t. It seems like such a good solution.) They’ve actually really dug in their heels, for over two years now I think, and they peer-pressure each other to ostracise not just the activists  but the activists’ kids (Isn’t that sick? The kids didn’t do a thing!) and some people have actually moved out of town because of the “pitchfork and torch weilding mob” so to speak. These are not WWJD type Christians, more like the witch-burning type it would appear. Do not underestimate how cruel they’ve been.
The solution seemed at hand a month ago when our Minister of Education announced he’d create a fully secular public school for the area by September (likely by reclassifying one of the many religious schools in the area, but perhaps by building a fresh school). Sadly we had an election a couple weeks later, and the months this man had spent looking into the issue went to waste, as now we have a new Education Minister. Hopefully he’s not going to drag his feet. The last guy shared your view that  surely a bunch of civilized people could work this out on their own. He left it to the community for way too long before he got involved. It’s safe to say after this long, that no, the community cannot sort this out on their own.  The government needs to fix things, and looking at the precedent set by nearly every other province, it seems obvious that sooner or later, the morning prayer ritual will leave all public schools. Rather than drag out all this fighting, why not get in line with the rest of Canada right away?
 Sorry if this is too long- I wanted to discuss with you because you’re one of the only people I’ve encountered who opposes our cause who is actually calm & rational enough to provide an enlightening debate.
oh, also: I grew up standing outside the room during the Lord’s Prayer at an Alberta Public School. At first I was in agreement with you that it didn’t scar me at all. But then I got thinking, and maybe that was the start of my feeling like an unwelcome outsider in my school. Maybe that’s why I got picked on. Maybe that’s why I’ve always felt threatened & anxious around Christians. Why until a few years ago I was too afraid of bullying to let anyone but close friends know I’m an atheist. Who knows where certain personality traits came from, but it is possible that being repeatedly banished (being sent to stand in the hall was how they punished unruly kids too) during my youth, for the “crime” of not being Christian, did indeed leave scars.  
If it is tough on atheist kids, imagine how hard it is for immigrant families, where the kid already feels “weird” because he’s new to the culture, has an accent, looks different… and then on top of that he has to stand up and identify as being of a different faith too. If not for this prayer system that kid would be free to keep a low profile &  not advertise his differentness.

The Christians in this school who support fairness are being bullied too if they stand up for the nonprayers, so they keep quiet. Then there are the large numbers who are actually gloating that they won and get to rule the school again, who seem to want the prayer not out of fondness for the prayer, but mostly to flaunt their power over the minorities. Your belief that there should be tons of sympathetic Christians standing up to advocate a fair solution is wishful thinking. Contrary to what you seem to think, “being Christian” has ziltch to do with “acting like Christ would”. I know it SHOULDN’T be that way, but it is. You’re naiive to expect Christians to do things like loving their neighbor or turning the other cheek. My experience is more that they do things like gossip about you because you swear, or avoid shopping at your store because your brother’s gay. Not to say they’re ALL like that, but my point is that you need to let go of that comforting thought that Christians are motivated by a desire to be nice & good.
There’s a real mob mentality controlling the majority of parents from this school, where they lose sight of protecting children, of justice, of tolerance, and can only think of crushing the activists. They write to the paper all the time saying it should be “majority rules”. Ugh. I like to counter that with the example of wheelchair accessibility. The majority can walk. Putting in ramps & elevators is costly. But even if we voted & the majority wanted to discard wheelchair accessibility laws, that would obviously be wrong. The disabled shouldn’t lose opportunities just because they’re not the same as the average person.  
Or here’s an exaggerated example: say that a majority of people in a town are racists and want to drive out the new nonwhite family.  The popularity of an injust opinion doesn’t make it right. Clearly majority opinion is not what matters- what matters is fairness.
Like you say, it all comes down to equality. Either the spotlight should move around between ALL belief systems, or NONE should get a spotlight. Absolutely agreed!
I think one of the activist parents did suggest having it be diversity education by using a different religion’s prayer each day, or an uplifting poem or quote in honor of the humanists. The idea was not adopted. The keep-the-prayer faction seems to hate alternative faiths almost as much as they hate atheism. All they want is for the whole world to go Christian, and anything less just angers them.

The Canadian constitution (AKA The Charter) is just fine, actually. The problem is an old piece of legislation still alive in Alberta which contradicts the federal stand. To get it off the books would take quite a bit of fuss, which it seems we may be headed for.  I’m pretty sure our provincial leaders could ignore it & just follow the Charter but they are likely afraid to tick off all the rightwing voters in this redneck province. FYI, the wording of this archaic loophole allows for ONLY the Lord’s Prayer, so if a school is 3/4 Jews for example, they would not have the same freedom to do Jewish prayer. The only options (in a Public school- we have separate tax-funded religious schools as well which is a whole other debate) are the Lord’s Prayer or nothing! Yep, pretty unfair eh? We really need to get the stupid loophole taken OFF the books.

Of course it is a public school , or there would be no issue. It’s the only “Secular” school in a sea of Catholic Schools (both types are government funded) so for people around there who aren’t Christian, it’s pretty much this school, send your kid to another town’s school (where he/she won’t know anyone from the neighborhood & will have an hour commute each way), homeschool, or move.
A tough situation to be in.  

First you write about your dislike of segregation, then you endorse segregation for kids that like to pray.