Christian Newspaper Makes Hilarious Mistake

Let’s “further the debate” by reasserting my own side’s claims and not giving a voice to the other side.

The “other side” is more than welcome to voice their opinions on here. They are more than welcome to show how Christianity over the centuries has not done more harm than good.

I suppose Gentle Jesus condemning the majority of humanity into Hell for eternity is considered too Old Testamenty and should be ignored.

Happy Hitchens Day everyone.

I’m more concerned with what #8 might be trying to say intentionally.   Atheists can be moral?  Or some moral visions aren’t so moral?

Is it just me, or is there a lot of religious backlash in Australia right now?

Another e.g. http://www.heraldsun.com.au/opinion/hitler-escapes-atheists-arguments/story-e6frfhqf-1226324219286 in reaction to Dawkins vs. Cardinal Pell.

I’m confused about Prop 6, that atheism “presents concepts about…right and wrong,” and Prop 8, that atheism is “compatible with any moral vision.” If it’s compatible with any morality, then I suppose it can present a morality, but it can present any moralities. I wish he would just come out and say what he thinks these “concepts” are.

And about it being obviously Australian; of course, because I doubt any liberal American theist would  have necessarily included something called Prop 8.

What a bizarre article. 

Prop #1:  Has anyone seriously declared God dead?  And saying that ancient peoples believed in a supernatural cause for things they didn’t understand doesn’t support your argument.

Prop #2:  You have a lot of evidence, but you either can’t show it to the atheists, or when you do it fails all the rules of actual evidence.  You let people’s hearts choose which to believe because they are much easier to sway than their minds.  Emotionally-informed individual choice is much easier to obtain than peer-reviewed consensus.

Prop #3: “The best case for Christianity is Jesus himself.”  The bible is true because the bible says so!

What does Prop #4 even mean?   They are english words, and they look like sentences, but there is zero semantic meaning to this paragraph.

Prop #5: Atheists think you are too Old Testament?  Then stop demanding things that are in the Old Testament!  If ‘law’ involves the heart and not paper, what real-world, rubber-meets-road practical difference does that make?  Does it mean you will stop referring to the paper?  If not, then what’s the real point of Prop #5?

If there is no value in corecing people into belief (Prop #2) then why not assume lack of belief until people are old enough to decide properly for themselves instead of needing to “pass wisdom on to children” (Prop #6)?  If you want room to disagree, then why is Jessica Ahlquist treated this way?  Why are children who don’t believe ostracized by family?

Prop #8 is a complete strawman.  “Atheists say we will all end up with an acceptable moral vision in the end which I will now argue against”.  Has anyone here ever heard an atheist argue that?

Prop #9 is eye rollingly bad.  Google a few things before you write.

Prop #10: God can not be argued into or out of existence.  Either can Yetis or mermaids.  History and tradition tell us they exist.  Do we assume they exist, or are we skeptical until there is real evidence?

Seriously, is this the best that a minister can rally against atheism?  This is weak!

Wow, seriously? You, Hemant Mehta, the “friendly” atheist,  think ” Christians have definitely done more harm than good.”

Are you really claiming that the sum total of the harmful acts performed by people calling themselves Christians over the last 2000 years has outweighed the sum total of good acts by those very same people?

In the “good acts” I would include everything from planting and harvesting crops to writing and publishing books, raising children and tending gardens, countless technical innovations, some major (like the reaper, automobile, airplane), but many more unsung,  the construction of roads and buildings, scientific breakthroughs from men like Boyle, Pasteur, Maxwell, and Newton, contributions to the abolition of slavery,  the civil rights movement, and the U.S. Constitution, etc. etc. etc.

In the harmful acts, I would include the inquisition, burning people at the stake, the suppression of free thought and sexual freedom, opposition to scientific progress, etc. etc. etc.

When I think of the individual and mostly forgotten contributions to human progress which people who call themselves Christians have made over the course of the past 2000 years, and subtract the individual and mostly forgotten acts of those same people which have eroded that progress, there’s no question in my mind that their good acts have outweighed their harmful acts. When you consider that, for most of that time, in the West at least, the majority of people have been Christian, if those individual acts had truly been more harmful than beneficial “the march of Western Civilization” would have been a net negative. I don’t believe that’s been the case, and I’m amazed that you can think a rational case could be made that it has.

It’s not just you. The Global Atheist Convention is being held in Melbourne, and has provoked numerous defensive articles from Christians. Stats show Christians are slowly losing their grip on society, but – unfortunately – still hold a lot of power. For example, chaplains are placed in many public schools subsidised by the tax payer.

There is a long way to go, but if the ridiculous ‘reasoning’ and outrage against ‘New Atheists’ on display is a good measure of progress, things are definitely heading in the right direction for us Aussies.

I’ll second that. Christians have definitely done more harm than good.

I would have preferred ‘Christianity’ over ‘Christians’ myself.  For example the scientific contributions of Newton had nothing to do with his faith.  However it is possible that he was held back by his willingness to give up looking for answers and give the credit to God.

 I agree with you Zeggman, while many atrocities have been done in the name of God, Jesus, Allah, and what have you… we ( and i am an atheist) can not deny the good that is done becuase of belief in God. We also can not deny the horrible things done in order to get rid of religion. Humans are bad and humans are good. That is a fact.

And we wonder why atheists are viewed in negative light in general society?

 Gotta love that claim that planting and harvesting is somehow something they gave the world, rather than something the predates Christianity and Judaism.  And the absurd idea that Christianity was prevalent in abolitionism and the civil rights movement–because, you know, there were a handful of liberal churches  that joined those movements, therefore all Christianity can take credit for it despite the fact that the majority of churches supported, endorsed, and fought to keep slavery and segregation in American society.  The same “logic’ that I get from people who insist that “look at those nice old ladies at this church, selling baked goods for charity, that surely overshadows that church’s massive attacks on civil rights and equality.”

BTW, Christianity was the sole acceptable viewpoint for over a thousand years.  You don’t get to take credit for any technological advances or nice paintings or anything else when anyone who was an atheist or some competing religion would either be oppressed and persecuted or outright killed.  When your religion silences all opposing views, your religion doesn’t get to take credit for anything good that comes out of that society because any one of those people could–and likely were–not Christian but just had this affinity for, you know, being alive and not tortured.

You’re absolutely right, John J. Ronald. that Christianity created a nice fat crater in human progress.  The Romans were more advanced, but that all went firmly back to the Stone Age at the advent of Christian dominance.  And to make this “Christianity is responsible for all technological advances” claim even more absurd, those advances were made in spite of the Church and Christianity, not because of it.  It was only when people started challenging or outright doubting Christianity and it’s absolute power that people started becoming open to reality.

They’re losing ground and on their way out, and their last-ditch effort to dig in their heels and maintain their privileged position is to misrepresent or outright rewrite history and make false claims about numerous other things as well.

 Because of many efforts to rewrite history to make Christianity the best thing that ever happened to the world and atheism to be the cause behind genocide, slavery, war, etc.  Because of the many efforts to paint all Christianity as good because “look, some nice Christians, that overshadows the atrocities done specifically in the name and at the behest of their holy book” while meeting a single “jerk” atheist (which translates into “this atheist didn’t act apologetic and ashamed of his/her atheism while behaving as if my religion was special”) is absolute confirmation that atheists are by necessity evil, child-killing, puppy-raping murdering monsters–due to the social programming combined with the desire to protect their preconceived notions that their religion makes them magically “better”.

Let’s not pretend atheists did this to themselves.  There are many centuries of outright demonizing lies that have primed people to react to the simple admission of atheism with the same horror as if that person admitted to being a rapist or murderer.  We were hated before we opened our mouths–before it was even safe for us to open our mouths.  Even now, the only way to make them “like” us is to pretend there is something wrong with us or pretend that our being blunt and unapologetic and our failing to treat religion with kid gloves or as some special superior thing is EXACTLY as bad as some of the shit Christianity or Christians have done (even beyond the obvious, there is the constant modern effort in America to use the force of law to maintain and even advance Christian privilege at the expense of LGBT people, women, and atheists among others, which is something the atheists aren’t doing no matter how “mean and nasty” they may seem in converstion.  Which is something to keep in mind.)

Wow, seriously? You got no better issues to discuss other than a simple typo that’s already been corrected in the online version? is this what you’ve been reduced to? Making fun of editing errors? Things can be mistakes without being Freudian slips. I’m not even sure what the joke is supposed to be, or why you think it’s funny.

 If the Rapture fiasco of yesteryear taught us anything at all, it’s that there’s scant different between Harold Camping, who put a scientifically-verifiable date to the end of the world, and all the other Christians who claimed he’s dead wrong because… no man knows the hour, only the Father. While perhaps he was crazier than them, he was also more honest and upfront about his beliefs.

 Nietzsche did. The real question is, though, does anybody care about that now apart from a bunch of crazy characters on a sci-fi show that’s been off the air for more than half a decade now?

Are you really claiming that the sum total of the harmful acts performed
by people calling themselves Christians over the last 2000 years has
outweighed the sum total of good acts by those very same people?

Counting the extraordinarily corrosive attitudes and beliefs inflicted by Christianity upon its followers, who then carry those poisonous beliefs to inflict all manner of subtle damages upon others without ever realizing it, let alone having the intent? Yes!

 And then there’s things like the Dark Ages, and the Burning of the Library of Alexandria – who knows what they cost us!

 The evidence that Christians were responsible for the burning of the Library of Alexandria is murky at best, with fingers being pointed at Julius Caesar predating the account of Christian destruction and (less credibly) at Muslims postdating it. Certainly its destruction was a loss, as was the loss of the Library of Congress at the hands of the British Christians in the War of 1812, and the loss of Beatles recordings and memorabilia in the great bonfires following John Lennon’s declaration that the Beatles were “more popular than Jesus.”

I’m not arguing that Christians haven’t often been a destructive force in their 2000-year existence, only that on balance they’ve done more good than harm. To me, the evidence supporting that claim is irrefutable — the swathes of Western civilization which have been under Christian hegemony for most of that time are better off now than they were then. If Christian contributions had been a net negative, that would not be the case.

 The progress of Western Civilisation has been progress away from and in spite of christianity.

because of religious people… and their brain wash by  their religion… but still agree with you,  there are good humans,  bad humans…

Gotta love that claim that planting and harvesting is somehow something
they gave the world, rather than something the predates Christianity and
Judaism.

You misunderstand. I don’t claim that Christianity invented agriculture, but that Christians living their day-to-day lives grew crops that fed their families and neighbors, drove buses and taxis that helped ferry people from where they were to where they wanted to be, wrote stories, cooked meals, bathed babies, tended the sick, repaired computers, took pictures, swept streets, piloted ships, and did a million other tasks. Much of their activity was mundane and menial, some was noble and uplifting, and some was cruel and destructive.

On balance, they did more good than harm, just like any other group of human beings.

If “The Friendly Feminist” argued that men have done more harm than good, and pointed to wars fought and murders committed by men, I could just as easily cite a long list of offsetting accomplishments by men. Thomas Edison didn’t wake up one morning, look in the mirror, say “Well, will you look at that — I have a penis! Guess I’d better invent a light bulb!” any more than Timothy McVeigh said “A penis!? Well, something’s going to get blown up now!”

Neither the accomplishments nor the destruction were (usually) a result of some arbitrary label. They were human beings being human, which means being mostly good.

 So what you’re saying is that humans will be humans regardless of religion.

Thanks for proving our point.

 Yes, humans will be humans regardless of religion.

Religion is one of the environmental factors (like education, nutrition, philosophy, etc.) that will color what kind of humans they are.

The humans who call themselves Christians (like the humans who don’t) are, for all their flaws and shortcomings, generally more beneficial than detrimental to those with whom they share the planet. It’s a bigoted lie to say that this labelled group or that labelled group of people has done more harm than good.

Was that your point? I’m happy to have “proven” it for you.

What was responsible for the 10s of millions dead in the Soviet Union.  Atheism, or an atheist?

LOL! hilarious! 

Yes Christianity has done harm; however, any system of
belief or human activity can lead people to do harm.  Science has even lead people to do harm.  Talking about how bad Christianity is only
lead to a game of Tit for Tat and solves no real problems.  
Further more with the dawning of the 20th
century it is now evident that Christianity causes no more harm then any other
belief system.  The reality is that any
organized human activity can do harm. 
Just look at politics.  The reason
for this is because of human nature. 
People will always have a tendency to be selfish or tribal which can
lead to harm and violence.  

Science,
secularism, atheism, even Buddhism have caused harm.  This statement about how bad Christianity leads
away from the greater problem of how we transcend the violent parts of human
nature.  Religion has been trying to deal
with this problem since the beginning. 
If secularism, humanism or any other form of non-belief wants to have
any credibility then they must also deal with this problem also.  

Instead of this, “your beliefs are bad and
mine are good” game.  We all need to work
together to combat all the violence in the world.  For example, programs like Karen Armstrong’s
charter for compassion campaign.  Karen
Armstrong works to find what we have in common and goes from there to create
peace among different people.  Focusing
on how we are a like is how one combats any type of violence.  Focusing on how bad another group of people
are just promotes intolerance which leads to more violence. 

Lastly, Christianity has done more good then
bad.  For non-believers to ignore the
good or to diminish it simply for political reasons diminishes the non
believer’s credibility.  If you have no
credibility with people who are not in your group then you have no real power
to change the world for the better.  

I
know that there will be people who disagree with me and that is fine.  What I see with some atheist is the
development of intolerance towards religion and Christianity in
particular.  If atheist and non-believers
are not careful and continue this path they will become the very thing they
hate.  

Harold

Damn it! You caught us! You’re totally right, Mr. The Other Wierdo (if that IS your real name), we Christians do, in fact, know the “scientifically verifiable” date of the the end of the world. God told us and we’re keeping it a secret. Camping was just a smoke-screen. Tee, as they say, hee.

Seriously, though, if you persist in thinking that all who call themselves themselves Christians are exactly the same and believe in exactly the same things, you are in danger of becoming what is known as a “bigot”. It’s not a good thing to be. Don’t be that, please.

The behavior of atheists doesn’t make atheism true or false, just like the behavior of Christians doesn’t have a thing to do with the veracity of their religion. It’s completely irrelevant.

Sounds like you didn’t fully shake off your childhood indoctrination, but really you’re making the same mistake as someone who decides to become an atheist for emotional reasons. Leaving the church because the pastor or congregation are “big old meanies” makes just as little sense as re-joining Christianity because you perceive atheists as hateful and intolerant. It has nothing to do with the way people behave. It has to do with whether their claims are true or false.

 Not to mention medicine, which was more advanced during roman domination than during the middle ages.

 You are just being stupid. We are not AGAINST religion per se, we are against the unrightful privileges it has and the fact that many people are FORCED to eat that bullshit. You can worship shaved monkey balls for what i care as long as you don’t shove your beliefs down my throat.

 Because not being a christian during those times was a bit risky for the health.

The Religious Tolerance website states the following.

2004-MAR:
Law passed that “bans the wearing of Muslim
hijabs, Sikh’s head coverings, large Christian crosses or crucifixes, Jewish
yarmulkes, etc. Small Christian jewelry is permitted.” 

This website also
gives us an example of one student being expelled for wearing a hijab.  Looking closer at this story we can see that
this ban is about discriminating against a group of people.  “The Minister of Education ordered the
expulsion from schools of all female students who wore the hijab. The
French government took no action against Roman Catholic students wearing a
crucifix, Protestant students wearing a cross, Sikh male students wearing a
turban, or Jewish male students wearing a yarmulke (skullcap).” 

Link to article:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/rt_franc2.htm

In 2010 France banned any veils that covered
the face including the burqa.

This removal of
religious freedom is an attempt by the French government to discriminate
against the Muslim immigrants.  Here is
an article the shows the discrimination that Muslims are facing in France.  Mind you France is a secular society.  Not a Christian society. 

Here is a quote, from
this article, from a secular Muslim in France “Brahim Branki,
53, is one of those Zitouni helped. A secular Muslim who opened a popular
seafood restaurant in Mantes-la-Jolie, he is worried about the current climate.
“Now they point their finger at a Muslim, the bearded one,” he said.
“It’s like the Jew before…. It’s dangerous, because anything is possible
once you start aiming at one group.”

Link to above
article: http://articles.latimes.com/2010/jul/21/world/la-fg-france-muslims-20100722

Human nature is human
nature.  We are a tribal animals; it does
not matter if you are secular or religious. 
France is showing us right now that
a secular society is and can be as bad as any religious society.  

 I would argue that even during the last 50 years, when not being a Christian has not posed any serious health hazard, Christians have still done more good than harm.

During the last week.

During the last day.

We’re talking about the sum total of the actions of hundreds of millions of people. Most of those actions have been neutral or positive.

I have no problem with pointing out Christian actions and policies which have been destructive, but I see no need to demonize a group of people by pretending that these destructive acts characterize them in toto.

The assumption you make is understandable, but incorrect. I wasn’t raised Christian. I grew up in a town so small that we didn’t even have a church. (Lest you think I’m exaggerating, you can look it up on Google Maps–Baker, Nevada.) I don’t think that we even had a Bible in our house, and if we did, it wasn’t given any prominence. I started going to church, at 38, out of curiosity, and I keep going because I like what I find there.

No, the behavior of atheists doesn’t make atheism true or false, I’ll grant you that, but it does bespeak the attitude that atheism engenders, which often strikes me as bigoted–mostly because so many assumptions are made–the biggest perhaps being that we are all brainwashed sheep–or that we’re all anything. Christians, like Hindus, like Muslims–like atheists–are all unique. 

But I do try and keep an open mind, which is why I visit and occasionally comment on sites like this. If I see something persuasive enough to change my mind about being a Christian, I  will, but I haven’t yet.

Sorry, I made an assumption. You said that you had started reading the Bible again, so I thought that you had been a Christian in your youth.

Perhaps blogs are not a good way to judge the attitudes of an entire population of people. I could point to myriad Christian blogs filled with hateful, arrogant, sexist, and homophobic content, but it would be wrong of me to say that all Christians share those attitudes, despite the fact that the Christian holy book (which they all purport to believe) does seem to demand some of those attitudes from them.

I don’t think that atheism can “engender” certain attitudes, because atheism doesn’t require that we believe that religion is harmful. There are atheists all across the spectrum. Some atheists like religion. Some think religion is useful. Some admire religion. And some, of course, are the opposite of that. But atheism doesn’t require one particular viewpoint. The only thing that atheists necessarily have in common is that we don’t believe in gods.

Incidentally, if you were never a Christian, why did you choose Christianity over all the other religions in the world? Just because it’s popular in the society that you happen to live in? I have a hard time understanding why an agnostic or an atheist would think that the biblical deity was somehow more likely to be real than any of the gods and goddesses from other cultures. I mean, why not explore Hinduism, or Zoroastrianism, or Jainism?

 you don’t have basis… you ask bro. eli soriano and you’ll know

I haven’t had a chance to yet, but they’re on my reading list. So many books, so little time. I’m currently re-reading The Big Sleep. 

I think one thing that atheists and believers can agree on is that Raymond Chandler is awesome.

 tone troll

Actually government funding has been reduced by nearly half in the last 2 years. Chaplaincy, whilst generally being a Christian profession, serves a general counsellor type role in schools – particularly primary schools. Most kids that see a school chaplain is not out of religious belief or contention, it’s just to have some help get through an issue, where having a Christian morality influence the child’s decision is no more than guidance. 

No doubt the church has undue power in some places, but I see many cases of local governments overruling any possible ‘power’ for a small body of lower-middle class people who meet weekly on a Sunday morning. In one instance I currently see a local government in process of shutting down a church because they offer a free meal to those who can’t afford it, and the people types this attracts are ‘unsavoury’ for the neighbourhood. 

 It is not about what is more grave or what. My point is that we should not blame religion for the atrocities that have been done in the past. We should blame the people.

Now, some one might argue that if those people were not religious then we wouldn’t have these problems.  Stalin has proven that not to be the case.

Well, it does seem that you’ve educated yourself about other religions, and since you weren’t indoctrinated as a small child, obviously you’re coming to this as an adult and making a free choice. As an atheist, I’d like to see more people in your position, ie: able to actually evaluate the evidence and make a free and informed decision. As it stands now, most children are indoctrinated from birth, so I would see your situation as a vast improvement.

That said, I must admit that your experience is completely foreign to me. I don’t understand how people can convince themselves that a particular god from a particular religion is real, and simply knowing nice Christian people (or visiting a nice Christian congregation) would do absolutely nothing in the way of convincing me that what their religion teaches is true. I see no evidence that anything the Christian religion claims is based in reality. To me, that’s the crux of the problem. No religion would ever “feel right” to me unless it made sense.

How did you convince yourself to be an atheist?

 http://oneworldmanygods.wordpress.com/