Jesus Isn’t As Peaceful As You Think

Given that Jesus has been dead for close to two thousand years,  I would argue that currently he really *is* as peaceful as I think.

Yes, but if he was really an aspect of an omnipotent, omniscient God, then he should have understood about epilepsy or mental disorders or whatever it was that he was “driving out,” and should have known that “demons” had absolutely nothing to do with it. Which tends to suggest he WAS killing the pigs for laughs, or at least because it made for a big dramatic show.

Or, of course, it might also reasonably suggest that Jesus was just an ordinary man who didn’t know anything more than anyone else in his time *shrugs*.

I cannot and will not follow anyone, grandiose claims of supernatural abilities or not, who advocates inequality, violence, and vile behavior even if he says he loves me. This is the cycle of an abusive relationship.

QFT! (Bolding mine.)

(EDIT: Fixed mah tags.)

A great percentage of Protestant and many Catholic commentaries take this story literally, Pseudonym. Of course you like the metaphorical interpretation as do some commentators. A choice you are welcome to make but it is by no means universal.

“Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out”

Jesus says I need a new purse. Welp, guess that means I need to go shopping…

I think you left out the two most important quotes.  First, Luke 19:27 :But those my enemies, who would not that I should reign over them, bring here, and slay them before me.  And then, Matthew 5:17-19:  Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
 18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
 19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

So yeah, Jesus will kill you if you beleive in other Gods, and he thinks the Old Testament is right on, so let’s kill all the gay people.

Enlightenment without judgement seems beyond the capacity of most of mankind.  Somewhat disappointing really.

Thanks, that one has been driving me nuts.  And the George Takei clean version as well.  

Firstly – I am not yet convinced there really was ‘a’ Jesus, or that there was a ‘real’ person that existed as described in the Bible.

More importantly, though, a person’s existence could also be measured in terms of the ongoing effect they have on the world, even when they are dead. I mean – some Christians spout the ‘Jesus Lives’ line, so why not also take the opposing position that Jesus’ ideas still need to be debated and any hypocrisy identified? There is much that could be seen as evidence of Jesus not being a good person at all; or, at least, definitely not a role model.

I realise that you were (most likely) posting in jest, but for a ‘dead guy’ Jesus still sure causes a lot of trouble. The number of times I’ve been told he will rise again …. argh…. :^)

I find it endlessly amusing to see athiest quoting and expousing scripture.Giving yourselves the lable,”free thinkers”,only deludes yourselves.Trying to manipulate God to justify yourown agenda or lifestyle.As it says in Isaiah 58.8,for My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are My ways your ways,for as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways,and my thoughts higher than your thoughts. And no He dosent have to explain and justify everything to mankind.It would be like explaining quantum phisics to a 3 year old

 . And no He dosent have to explain and justify everything to mankind.

If he exists, then yes he bloody well does, he supposedly gave us free will and intelligence, and I intend to use both of those if I ever meet him and demand an explanation. I refuse to blindly follow ANYTHING, just because it’s supposed to be all powerful.

It would be like explaining quantum phisics to a 3 year old

Which isn’t that difficult to do, it’s actually easier than explaining it to an adult with preconceived ideas, and an ego.

No,you will be in the spiritual realm and wont be to cocky about anything, and yes you could explain  physics to a child,but why would you waste your time

Certainly the fact that a majority of American Protestants believe it is a literal (and true) story says more about them than about the story itself. It would be quite accurate, but not as catchy, to say “The mythic North American Protestant Jesus isn’t as peaceful as His followers make him out to be”.

So we bitch when they’re mean, then we bitch when they try to convince each other to be nice? If the picture said, “Oh yeah, them… go kills all those f8ck3rs!” then we’d have a right to complain…. If this gets one Christian to lighten up on persecuting gays, women, etc, then wasn’t it worth it? And really, if we complain when they try to play nice, they’re probably just going to get meaner.

You know what, I’ll say it like I mean it. Chill the f*ck out! I mean, what kind of @sshole complains when people within a group try to get each other to stop persecuting outsiders? Are we really so self-righteous that we can’t even let them use their scriptures to be NICE to other people? Yes, there are bad things in the Bible, and if this picture had anything to do with Jesus telling people to take up the sword against the gays, we should be out in force. But posts like this are EXACTLY why people hate atheists, and why I’m more and more ashamed to be associated with the group. When someone is trying to do good, you don’t complain about because it’s not the way you’d do it! That doesn’t sound the kind of “reasonable” atheists like to be proud of; it’s sound petty and bitchy. I can’t believe Hemant let something this ridiculous be posted on such a usually reasonable blog. 

“and yes you could explain  physics to a child,but why would you waste your time”

How would it be a waste? If more people spend time instilling a scientific curiosity in children we could potentially increase scientific understanding rather significantly. But….  if you are happy buying all your products from China, then by all means, don’t waste your time.

 We aren’t talking about actual historians, which ought to be obvious from the context. I feel you’re getting very close to playing semantics games.

 If you check the comments, you’ll see that that the criticisms of said poll have themselves been strongly criticized. I’m a layman and I could see two or three flaws in the SA article’s arguments without even referring back to the poll for comparison.

 I agree.  I particularly like the comments explaining what God should have done or what he should have said.

 The sad part is that there are so many bibles, interpetrations, translations that it is virtualy impossible to understand the correct meaning of the bible.
It is almost as if the bible is just a collection of iron-age myths that has been taken to seriously for to long by to many people.
The crarification is very simple: don’t take any religion seriously. Use logic and reason, it will get you to the moon and back.

I did not mean to imply that I assumed you had not read the Bible.  In fact my assumption would be just the opposite which you have confirmed.  Most people on this site have read at least part of the Bible if not all of it.  And after reading it they reject its teachings as you have done.  I don’t mean any ill will by that, that is your right and your free will to do so.  If you took that as an offense then my apologies.  

I had a friend post that last week. I dug up a few quotes in response. Here is one:

Matthew 15:22-26

22 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.”
 23 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”

 24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”

 25 The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.

 26 He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”

No. That doesn’t make one bit of sense. The fact that *you* don’t like the (figurative) speaker has no bearing on the truth or impact of the message on its intended group. It’s as patently ridiculous as Christians dismissing evolution because they don’t like science (it’s done bad things to people! it’s been wrong!). Bad people say good things, and good people say bad things. People are reacting with a gut response to put down Christianity in all of its forms rather than stoping thinking long enough to realize that this message from this speaker could get a lot of good done in the Christian community. And that aside, you’re not going to get them to stop persecuting us or gays or anyone, nor are you going to get them to take a hard look at the reality of their religion, by mocking and belittling a good message from someone who was, overall, a pretty decent guy. If you want to reach someone, do it on their level. If you want to preach at someone, do it on yours. 
If it took posting pictures of Hitler saying, “Be nice, kids” to get Nazi’s to stop hurting other people, then would have been for it. I get that a lot of the people here seem to have a general disdain for Christianity, and it’s true that Jesus wasn’t perfect, be he was far from bad (as the Bible tells it). He cared for the poor and healed the sick. And my personal opinion about the guy (or his existence/divinity) aside, Christians believe in him as the be-all, end-all of morality. If someone can remind them that Jesus said to take care of other people, *regardless of what else he said,* then I will remain 110% for it. 

WTF are you even on about?

“Trying to manipulate God”Newsflash: we don’t believe in God. We aren’t “trying to manipulate” anything. We’re quoting out of the same 2000-year old mythological book you’re fond of endlessly quoting.

So, a priori acceptance of the validity a purported being (assuming it exists) is somehow a higher virtue than critical examination according to human moral systems.

“His ways” may not be our ways, but neither are the ways of ants or jellyfish. If those that exist in this world wish to impose “his ways” or argue at all that “his ways” should supersede be our ways, they better be speaking to us in terms of our ways.

 When you look at the complaints about the way God “should” have done it you will find that most of these complaints are not based upon “our” ways but are instead the personal wants and wishes of the person expressing how it should have been done.   

“like explaining quantum phisics to a 3 year old”

or logic to a sheep

We don’t even know whether a person upon whom the Jesus character in the bible was based actually existed, so there’s no way to know what this maybe/maybe not person said. We only have words attributed to him by anonymous writers writing decades after he supposedly lived.

But, I agree, some noble thoughts were attributed to Jesus. Too bad they didn’t let it go at that and instead added in a lot of really nasty stuff.

I caught myself about to make an ageist comment, but it was out of place, especially considering that I’m pretty sure Rwlawoffice agrees with you.

I would hope however that you would see the value in sharing knowledge.  And more important than ‘what’ we know is ‘how’ we know.

 For the record, I do agree with sharing knowledge and explaining physics to a child. But in order for it to have any benefit and not be a waste of time, you would do it in a manner in which you think the child would understand. 

Ah, I was being confusing.  I meant that you and Ndonnan agree (I think, although he may be more sure) as to what happens to atheists after we die.

Well that’s certainly true (although I’d stick “conservative” in there to make sure you don’t accidently include, say, mainline Methodists or Presbyterians).

The Jesus that you refer to is, after all, in favour of war and capital punishment. Considering that he is an archetypal executed innocent person, that’s more than a little ironic.

The case that there was no Jesus at all is pretty well supported […]

No it isn’t. Ask any secular historian of the Ancient Near East. Actually, read Bart Ehrman’s new book.

 i congratulate you on knowing, unlike many of your fellow believers, how and when to apologize and bow to superior knowledge. that alone makes you better than most people like you, who cannot.

Keep reading xeon,finish the passage.

On that I am sure we agree.

 Well, Saruman did almost rid us of the Shire, so he’s Aces I reckon.

 Or, if you want to be correct and honest about it: You’ll find that most of those “our ways” are based upon empathy, reason and logic, all things missing from the Bible more often than not.

Oh, and they’re also based upon 2000 years of development in our science, culture, philosophy and ethics, all things which this omniscient god was oddly as unaware of as were the people telling stories about him back then…

What most xians don’t realize is that Jesus was the person who originated the concept of Hell, if the gospels are to be believed. In the old testament, God could smite you, give you pox etc. and generally be a real asshole, but once you were dead, he had no further power to harm you. Gentle Jesus meek&mild is the one who introduces the concept of eternal infinite agony after you die.

You didn’t refute my argument, you confirmed it.  You understand what you want to about God and you chose to reject him.  That is far different then not understanding.  You are ignoring the parts of the Bible that don’t fit with how you want to think of God and that don’t fit with your justification to reject him. That is your right of course.

Out of curiosity, how aren’t you doing the same? I don’t understand how anyone not blissfully ignorant of the Bible can utterly ignore the existence of the Old Testament, in which the writers had no interest in conveying the message that God was a peaceful, loving deity. Their understanding of God was of a vengeful, angry creature responsible for all that went wrong in the world.

Ever stop to think about the true meaning and origin of the prayer, “Lord, lead me not to temptation”? The idea dates back to Genesis 22’s inception in which the older translations used the phrase “God tempted Abraham”, as in tempted him to kill his son. Later, because this contradicted Matthew, the text was revised to read “God tested Abraham, but the idea of God as the one who makes evil happen was very real back then.

The four major sources of the Old Testament (the Elohist, Jahwist, Priestly and Deteronomist) each had their own ideas about the stories of the Bible and it’s pretty obvious that some of them contradicted and were hamhandedly mashed together to form a narrative (which is why you get repetition, such as Abram and Isaac both sharing a wife-sister slavery story with the exact same ruler, as well as there being two separate world creation stories and two separate ten commandments stories). One thing they all had in common was the belief that God was to be feared because his chief method of communicating his existence was murdering people.

Of the two major faiths which still place the greatest stock in the Torah, I think Islam says the most about God. Try reading the Qur’an sometime — “Allah is the greatly merciful; may He not smite me. Allah is the exceptionally merciful; may He not destroy me. Allah is the peacemaker; may He not bring me to ruin.” Judaism doesn’t seem to have the Killer God motif quite as strongly, but then again, they were already dismissing the wisdom of killing anyone who disagreed with them by the first century. It took the New Testament to forge the idea of God as a loving deity, making the messages of peace and love somewhat unique to Christianity’s piece of the Abrahamic trilogy.

And I’m sorry, but I can’t accept it as easily anymore. If God exists, then He isn’t merciful or loving. It goes beyond free will. When someone I knew was dying in agony, my prayers did absolutely nothing to help them. In order of their last throes (spread out over a period of months), I prayed for God to heal them, I prayed for God to inspire the doctors to find a solution, I prayed for God to take the pain away, and then I prayed for God to let them die quickly. It proved one thing to me: the wishing well has a better prayer-to-recipience ratio than God, no matter how unselfish the prayer.

So if there is a God, my vote would have to be for the Old Testament deity, who (if he existed) would have been having a ball laughing in mockery at my efforts to ease suffering in this world. Either that or I didn’t burn enough animal sacrifices to gain his favor.

 It was so nice of Jesus to help the “dogs,” wasn’t it? That’s like a klan member helping out a black guy, but insulting him while he does it. It doesn’t impress me one bit. A good person can help people without first referring to them as dogs. Or did you completely miss that part?

Sorry about that. Here’s the intended link.

At least I didn’t accidentally paste a link that’s embarrassing!

you chose to reject him

eh, not quite.  I don’t believe he exists.  It’s not rejection.  And it’s not a choice either.  In my late teens I really tried hard.  I wanted to believe in God.  Like most of us, I had a number of friends and relatives who were Christian, and I felt like there was something I was missing.  Something I just wasn’t getting.  You know the advice, you just have to have faith.  You just have to open your heart and ask Him in.  I did. I prayed.  I read a number of apologetic books, including C.S. Lewis.  I read the Bible (which honestly made it all harder).  I figured if I just forced myself to believe it would come.  It. Just.  Didn’t.  Happen.

From your armchair you can say I didn’t try hard enough.  Or a part of me was still rejecting.  Or whatever you like.  But I honestly had the desire to have Faith.  The best I can explain it would be choosing to see five lights when you only see four.  You can pretend that one’s invisible.  And other people can tell you they see it.  But unless I see that light, I would be lying to say I see five.  I take your word for it that you see five, but you’ll just have to take my word for it that I’m not rejecting light #5- I just don’t see it.

Fair enough and thank you for sharing your experience.  All I can say is keep looking and keep an open mind and heart.  You may be surprised one day that He comes to you in a way that you can see.  

But I don’t see it as vengeance from God for anything I or my family or anyone I know did — since unlike people thousands of years ago, we have a relatively solid understanding of what causes premature death. I know what causes organ failure (in this case, at least) and how it could have been prevented, and how it wasn’t. Far from taking home the interpretation that God is evil and malicious, I simply had to accept that God isn’t real. I said if God exists, then he must be evil. This is a fact. It is an inescapable fact. I’m sorry that it flies in the face of everything you believe, but one cannot look at this world and reasonably draw any other conclusion. We live in a world of filth and poverty and crime and torture, and much of it is inflicted on others by the very people who claim to uphold Christian values.

God wouldn’t let that happen. The God in the Bible doesn’t hesitate to tell people when they’re doing wrong. He kills people who are doing wrong on many occasions. He also kills people who are doing right on many occasions, such as when an angry mob chases Jacob and his family, who just finished slaughtering all the males of a village, raping the women, and enslaving their children — God defends Jacob. God’s bigger concern is Jacob’s brother, who married into another tribe. God hates that.

So God can’t be real. God wouldn’t hesitate to annihilate all life on Earth if it meant upholding his ideals. Ask any good southern-US Christian man and he’ll assure you that God does indeed strike down directly, killing those fags who want to bugger other men, that he sends tornadoes to wipe out entire cities and hurricanes to inflict coastal ruin and drown thousands of infants all because, in his infinite capacity for love, he really, really hates when people break the rules. If this is true, then God must also be killing the hypocrites, the US Army soldiers who shoot Afghanistan civilians for sport, the Westboro Church members who plague funerals, and certainly he wouldn’t have let BTK enjoy himself for so long.

Except this doesn’t happen. God doesn’t intervene at all. Random accidents of nature, predictable and well-understood woes of human health, and economic ruin are the only justice we ever see, despite a clear pattern of the exact opposite being depicted in the Bible. God isn’t leading us to salvation. He’s not even remotely concerned. He doesn’t exist to be concerned.

I understand that this is anathema to your faith, that my perspective is akin to being an antichrist. Given that the priesthood also once preached that God wanted his people to brutally murder anyone who ever suggested a different faith than the Torah, I’d have to say that disagreeing with me on an Internet blog being the worst you’d do is a blessing in disguise. I’m fine with that. “De-converting” people isn’t my priority, only doing my best to ensure that people respect and cherish each other during the time we have. The institutionalized hatred of women, homosexuals and people of different faiths is my enemy, and it exists in Christianity. Believe in God all you want (I do believe in something I consider similar), but acknowledge that the Bible has its share of filth and any religion based upon it will share in that horrible flaw.

Suffice it to say that we have a very different view of Christianity. 

 I do agree with you on the bottom line.

Having said that, “Nailed” is an “interesting alternate POV” on the topic of history only in the same sense that Intelligent Design is an “interesting alternative POV” on the topic of biology. Which is to say, it’s interesting that anyone seriously buys it, but it doesn’t contribute anything useful to the underlying academic study.