Why Was the Westboro Baptist Church *Invited* to the Reason Rally?

I agree 100% with this post. Having the absurdities of the Westboro Baptist Church on display will explicitly convey some of issues the atheist community wants to address; however, sending them a special invitation may take away some credibility from our movement in the general public’s eyes. 

God hates swag.

You’re approaching this all wrong.   I think one of the speakers at the Rally should actually THANK Westboro for proving to the entire world, beyond all doubt, that religion is a simply a man-made construct that can be used to support ANY ridiculous or hateful belief (at which point the crowd could erupt in applause of gratitude).

I’m somewhere on the fence on this one.  I’m certainly confused as to why something that is supposedly touting itself as a reasonable alternative to the stupidity would want to pull a publicity stunt such as this.

If people are going to take atheists seriously, shouldn’t we begin by taking ourselves seriously enough that we don’t go inviting nutjobs to our event?

While not an atheist I still support your rights to effectively communicate your position in a civil and reasonable manner.  That being said I suspect it will be a net negative to have invited WBC.  People like them (and, you will note,I refuse to call them “Christian” because in my mind they are not) will use these kinds of invitations to make their activities seem legitimate and their views “normal”.  Inviting them creates a false equivalence that people may come to regret.

Have fun at the rally!

I agree.  I think it was done in poor taste.  Moreover, these sociopaths have honed their skills at inciting incidents that they can use as fodder for lawsuits and settlements.  They’ve made money from tormenting people to the point that they react.  Now this element has been invited to taunt and provoke our “kindred spirits”.  I hope people will look on them as absurd manifestations of delusion only and REFUSE TO ENGAGE with them on any level beyond that.

This is not good.  It’s hard enough, dont make it harder. uugh.

They may have been invited, but I think they’ll do what they did for Whitney Houston’s funeral … won’t bother to show up. They’ll just photoshop themselves in the pictures instead.

Heh, well if they were coming anyway, why not take some of the wind out their sails by outright inviting them? Wouldn’t it be at least a bit annoying if you knew your “worst enemy” was coming into town to have a party, and they actually sent you an invite? 🙂

I agree with several posters on here: This is a made-for-TV study in contrasts, probably calculated to crack the popular image of atheists as dangerous aliens.

Imagine the pan shot: “Atheists” – polite, well-dressed people having a nice time; “Christians” – Westboro’s screeching wackaloons.

Great. Some bad PR to distract from why we’re assembling. Good job, NAP. :/
Everyone, keep your heads up. Treat WBC like you would like to be treated. Things will be fine.

As much as I don’t understand the purpose of an Atheist Party, I’m glad they invited WBC. Hell, they should invite all the religious boobs they can find so that their hypocrisy and bigotry are on display for all to see.

On a side note, why is there even an atheist party? that’s like having a Catholic politcal party or a Jewish politcal party, etc.. Besides not believing in gawds, what is their platform/agenda? I know what they stand against, but what do they stand for? Too many issues to base a party on a non-belief only.   

 I believe their intent was to help spark conversational items that show what we really oppose in Christian doctrine. Not to “poke the rattlesnake”. Not like they weren’t going to show up anyways. If anything, this is us welcoming them to give their typical spiel of hatred and us to counter it. Saying it is supposed to be one thing leaves out the possibility for it being other things. Dissent yields the constructive criticism that makes up our movement. I think you’re blowing this way out of proportion of the actual intent.

Poison the pork rinds.

Except not really? Most Christians don’t claim them, they Scotsman them straight out of the fold and go along their merry way. They’re so far off the map that they’re hard to take seriously. They’re almost universally reviled – I’d say the Pope has done more to harm organized religion than anyone at the WBC.

This is just another piece of proof of why the “National Atheist Party” is a bad idea.  I tried to give them the benefit of the doubt and listened to an interview with them on The Thinking Atheist, but no thanks.  There is a need for atheists to get into politics to protect our freedoms and personal liberties, but there is no need for a specific party to run candidates. 

I had assumptions that the NAP must be run by some attention-seeking individuals like most politicians.  This act just proves that I am thinking in the right realm. 

I agree that I am going to Reason Rally to have fun and hang out and meet new like-minded friends.  I was hoping for a positive experience where I didn’t have to worry about being triggered by super negative things.

The ONLY benefit to this, is that at least these WBC morons won’t be at a soldier’s funeral that day.  I’d rather us take the brunt of their hate than a fallen soldier’s family.

Cant wait to read all the “Finally WBC  is protesting at the correct event” type posts over at faux news after this one ….. something tells me that the “everyone hates the WBC” phrase will be out the window once they see atheists are involved

I like the idea that the WBC will paint anyone else who is planning to protest the event with the same brush.  Maybe the good quiet Presbyterians or moderate Baptists who were going to come and hold a candle vigil or something will say to themselves, “Wow, do WE look that hateful and unreasonable?” and turn around and go home.

I also think to troll the WBC, the rally should hand out pens and poster board and people  can write their own slogans and pose with them as souvenirs.  Maybe a big sign, “Get your picture taken here with the Westboro Baptist Church” would be a nice addition.

Hemant didn’t write this, one of his contributors did. 

this will be a disaster, these people are just not stupid they act in a very vile way. Nobody will actually be able to address them, and at worst… they will take away publicity.. The real WBC leaders don’t just stand around with signs…. they scream and don’t listen to any type of counter argument..

I think the media will play off the WBC appearance and miss the point of the rally.  And the media is where the nation as a whole can get a glimpse of the overarching message.  Instead America will get the he-said-she-said version.

We would not have invited them, but now that they are coming we *can* take advantage of it. As The Friendly Atheist pointed out in his blog, the WBC is the epitome of much of what we, as atheists, stand against. They show off the insanity that Christianity can be for many believers out there who are not moderate.

It will come in handy during the day while talking to the press, “Just take the WBC [point in their direction] as an example…”

*can*: We stated it this way because it is important to ensure that the “PR disaster” be prevented by making sure that no one in attendance get into physical fisticuffs or some other altercation with the WBC. Walk by and laugh at them, snicker in their presence, point at them, etc all you want – but do not touch them or go anywhere close enough to them that they could file another one of their stupid lawsuits.

 “and, you will note,I refuse to call them “Christian” because in my mind they are not”

Why do you feel you have any grounds to determine who is indeed a Christian and who is not?

As has been mentioned, Hemant didn’t write this article. Do try to get your facts right.

I’ve been fairly ambivolent about the NAP thus far, but your post has definitely added weight to the ‘Dislike’ side of the equation.

Trolling is ok, trolling is good. Atheists are good trolls. Nuf’ said.

Fair enough.  Though I must say I’m fairly excited for when the folks at TrueReason.org meet the WBC, and they begin arguing about whose imaginary friend is the right one.

Of course he didn’t – but this appears on his page, under his byline – so I’m sure it was approved.

The thing that worries me about this invitation and the possibility of WBC showing up at the rally is that it may put many ambivalent Christians – the ones with actual political power – in the position of feeling they have to side with one extreme or the other… the NAP or the WBC… and more than a few may end up deciding that maybe the WBC is the better of the two options: at least they’re “Christian”.

The whole business feels to me a lot like grabbing a snake by the tail… it may turn and bite you.  Better not to give them any opportunity for free publicity at our expense.

Personally can see both sides of this.   Agree that it is a nice opportunity for Atheists to be seen as reasonable and the juxtaposition with the WBC could be very interesting.   

It also has “risk of potential clusterfuck” written all over it.   Remember that the WBC are delusional but they are also very savvy and very practiced at protesting / pushing peoples buttons.    Hope everyone there remembers the saying “never argue with an idiot…they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience”.    Hope the rally organisers keep plenty of stewards close by to watch for and diffuse trouble.

Actually, the best reply to Psalms 14:1 is to say “Yes,  but the wise man declares it out loud.”

I think it is great because it will distract the Jeebus deluded idiots long enough that a few women might be able to seek reproductive health services without running a gauntlet.  We should make more use of this diversionary tactic. Matter of fact, if they start trying to interfere with the event, all we need to do is tell them that a busload of gay people is arriving at the Trailways depot across town in ten minutes. They will scamper off faster than roaches under a spotlight.

A rattle snake? Hardly. They were going to come no matter what. I’m glad we invited them. It shows what nice people we are. 😉

False. The WBC is a institution specially designed to enhance the lives of atheists.

I think the approach is not to fight em, but to have fun. Like ask to take a picture giving them the finger with a big “god hates fags” sign. C’mon its like visiting the bigotry landmark, except it comes to you. Doubly awesome. See if you can get some fake stones (paper) and have them “stone you” for a photo op. How many chances will you get? Really… This will be great.

Provide them with Faith Hot Dogs… A big wad of nothing because God gives in mysterious ways, they just gotta believe. I’m forgetting what the blue’s brothers called it in “Rubber Meatloaf” (it’s the kind of meat loaf that you throw at a wall, and if it don’t bounce back… you go hungry [baw baw baw])

 That’s the danger with these idiots. They’re all lawyers and they’ll sue you at the drop of a hat. Plenty of opportunity for someone to come to serious harm, bodily or otherwise.

Something tells me they would be attending no matter what… 

There’s definitely still an opportunity to take advantage of. My only objection to this is the invitation – which has the potential to change the story (quite a bit).

I’m confident that the organizers will make the best of this.

Wow! That’s Brilliant!

We can just play stupid. “Hey, we didn’t ever expect that inviting poo-flinging monkeys to the event would actually be likely to result in them flinging poo, we just wanted to have them join us.”

Indeed, it’s very convenient when your straw men show up in the flesh carrying signs.

Seriously, this suggestion reeks so heavily of intellectual dishonesty that I can only assume the word “reason” in your handle is meant to be ironic.  Would you invite al Qaeda to blow up your rally so as to “prove” that religion is hateful?  How would you feel if a church invited a Randite to speak, so afterward they could point to him as “proof” that atheists are amoral and dangerous?

Westboro isn’t a church, it’s one deranged troll and his sickeningly loyal family.  The proper response to a troll is to ignore it.

Well all those other christians are coming

 That’s a fair point and all, but on the other hand, I don’t need to invite the KKK to my barbeque in order to illustrate why racism is bad. It might work out like you say, but it still feels like a cheap stunt to me. I guess we’ll see what happens.

The WBC has scant support from major religious denominations, including Baptists.  I think that tying in the WBC with your average Christian is self-defeating and makes us look ignorant in the process, as if we are waging war against every Christian and not just the ones who have presented real hurdles in society for us to have to surmount.   Believe it or not, moderate Christians are more populous and supportive of our long-term civil goals than most would think, as much as we disagree on the matter of religion.  Not to mention that the antics of the WBC will make the other Christians at the event, who at the most will have a booth and distribute literature, look downright reasonable and approachable in comparison. If we think the WBC demonstrates what we fight against, then we will be making it clear that we are fighting against a strawman and being too broadly antagonistic to religion as a whole, which is something that I personally don’t see as an issue – I want to thrive in spite of religion and help others do the same, but beyond that I don’t see practicing faith to necessarily be as dangerous as the WBC.

We should make it clear that the National Atheist Party is counterproductive and just as representative of atheists as the Westboro Baptist Church is of the people outside its limited fringe membership.

It can’t possibly make ‘us’ look ignorant. These clowns by their very existence make themselves look ignorant. Any and every strategy has been used to deal with these clowns many of which are not open to an atheist group. You’re not going to get the Hells Angels to counter picket them, you aren’t going to get  any sympathy or understanding because they showed up. After all, we’re used to these sad human beings picket funerals of servicemen and other people killed tragically.  We have unreasoning, clueless and seriously evil human beings who are invited to a event which celebrates ‘Reason’ – they have none. They are the antithesis of reason and stand as evidence of what we actually stand up to and face – with reason and logic. They can’t be reasoned with, some of the folks watching can be reasoned with. 

With the free admission price they’ll be able to come right into the talks and start jeering from the audience.    At which point they will have to be ejected and the people inviting them will at best look like fools.   WTF, were they thinking?

It’s like inviting nazis to a bar mitzvah.    If they show up you know it isn’t going to be pretty.

Well, like any other person or group that heckles or disrupts they get escorted out and or arrested.  Just the same as if your Uncle started raising heck at your wedding or that really nice mother at the kids Chuck E Cheese Pizza party who brings her own flask, gets drunk and starts dancing with the animatronic Chuck E. Cheese band gets escorted out.
The idea is that you invite them to reason, interact reasonably and constructively with others and when they don’t they’re only exposing themselves. Win. A palpable win.

My main concern is that they’ll basically be a walking ad hominem attack. It may be seen as though the NAP – and, by extension in the eyes of onlookers, all of the ralliers –  are trying to say “WSC are theists. Therefore, theism is bad.”

I really hope that the NAP will present a good REASON for their inviting the WSC, and that it’s not just to poke fun of them, or to poke fun at all theists by extension; doing so may be emotionally satisfying, but I wouldn’t call it particularly rational.

There’s no way the Reason Rally can avoid protesters. That’s because the Freethought community is working. 

“Provocative” eh? This isn’t the first time I’ve heard a troll describe their actions with that adjective. 

 Not that the Westboro Church has ever demonstrated the capacity to understand the Bible.

Do we have an extraordinarily naive audience? Does anyone actually think that was the intent of the letter?

-Matt on mobile.

Wait, we invited the protesters to an event that was going to be atheist fun for the whole family?!

Since they were invited, I say we just give them a taste of their own medicine and make something like ‘Picket The Bigots’ where we just picket them. I think it would be wholes bouts of fun!

“….Mayer and Penn are taken seriously….” your little rally just lost all credibility with that statement alone. Penn is a bit too much. Mayer is clearly a defiant, egotistical hypocrite. 

 It’s not a straw man if it’s real. Please try again. Without the No True Scotsman and the false equivalencies, if you would.

 Apparently you never stopped to ask if there was a reason for their criticisms. All you’ve done with WBC is shift the Overton Window and make those less fundamentalist than them look a little more mainstream.

All you’ve done by acting snide here is lose more support.

I think you’re missing the fact that Christians and the general public are almost universally united in revulsion for Westboro Baptist Church. This will only make atheists look better.

Okay, I can see why this might have been a good idea, kind of like “killing them with kindness.” But, I can see people taking this as NAP agreeing with the WBC on some levels. I’m also wondering if this was only in the administration, as I heard nothing from NAP of NJ, which I am a regional officer of.

No, I think this audience is quite sophisticated, and as such can glean that the letter works on multiple levels and intents.

Well, it WAS Luther who said that Reason is the enemy of Faith…

Unless there are two Reason Rallies happening, Hemant definitly supports yours- http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2012/03/06/nathalie-rothschild-is-wrong-the-reason-rally-is-worth-attending/

I don’t know to what extent he does or does not support any given detail of your work or your plans, but he’s right behind the main idea. And so what if he disagrees with you on some points? Unquestioning adherance to an ideology is NOT an atheist trait, surely?

Formally inviting the WBC could go either way. I can see the reasons for it, I can also see how it might backfire. For my part, I think the potential benefits outweigh the possible risks. I’m interested in seeing how it works out.

Wow, Mat, that’s harsh. I can only assume that the word “Slaughter” in your name is meant . . . oh nevermind.

You’ve misunderstood my position. While I don’t actually disagree that inviting WBC was silly (almost as silly as your analogies), my point was that when life hands you lemons, you make lemonade. If they show up they will be the best example possible of the irrationality of religion. There’s nothing intellectually dishonest about that. Second, I simply don’t share the timidity of many of the people who are commenting here. “Ooh, what if they sue us? Ooh, what if they call us names? Ooh, what if they give us dirty looks?” Atheists need to man (or woman) up.

Best way is to point out that the name for God in 14 and 53 are different and support the JEDP hypothesis that their precious book was written peacemeal from different time periods replete with revisionist history.

IMHO..

Sorry I lumped you in with those supporting the invitation.  Slammed my reply out pretty hastily, and shouldn’t have made that assumption.

But, my main points still stand: using Westboro as an “example” of religion is disingenuous, since they so plainly aren’t representative of religion broadly.  And what Westboro wants most is attention, so why should we give it to them?  If it weren’t for the media coverage and the couter-protests, woud they even still be around?

That’s a couple of incredibly political responses you just gave. And by political, I mean, pure spin.

If you want to reach out to religious people, that’s great, I’m in favor of that. But that’s not what happened. On behalf of the *reason* rally, you reached out to one of the *most unreasonable* groups….and you’re going to try to claim that you did this because we can’t just preach to the choir, we really need to reach out to the most absurd religious organizations on the planet?

Is there anybody here who believes this was anything more sophisticated than “Hey, wouldn’t it be great if WBC protested our event?! Let’s invite them!”? 

Do you actually believe your own spin?Do you really think other people will?
What other religious organizations did you send invitations to?

Can you provide a similar letter that you sent to some other religious organization?

 And all yellow things are lemons.

Actually I have. I read it every morning. How often do you read it? (and not just 1 verse here and there)

I really like this reply….but I’m a parent who thinks this event will be  a great educational opportunity for my child. You know –  to see that there are other nonbelievers just like his parents out there – and that they’re friendly and peaceful.  Now I’m beginning to doubt the wisdom of this particular parenting decision. I resolve to be rational and see what happens, but I’m pretty sure inviting these guys was a bad, if not stupid, move.

I’m guessing you missed the sarcasm.  My apologies; the move to put in a punctuation for sarcasm was overturned.

How often does the festival get to invite the comedy act for free?

 Ah Matt, bringin’ the common sense as usual. Why any atheist is pretending that this was done for anything other than spectacle is beyond me. It was a mind-numbingly stupid thing to do, inviting those loons and hope Klawon gets a solid earful for it. 

What is worse than them turning up are the videos of a large throng of atheists delightedly flinging nasty personally insults at them and their standing there silently taking it. It is a disaster in terms of representing atheists and I am truly baffled that anyone could have thought it would be any differnt. We invited some fish to come swim in this barrel so we could test out our  shotguns. Just looks childish and nasty.

God never actually threatens eternal torture on anyone in the Bible… but yes, he is inhumane.