Is Jesus Getting in the Way of Your Relationship?

The relationship won’t work, but not for the reasons Hemant specified.  It won’t work because your boyfriend has an image of what a “Christian woman” should be – and that includes his partner, whether she is a Christian or not.  That image likely involves submission and obedience: God/Jesus is first, him second, future children next, and you last.  He can’t respect you as a human being because he has been taught that women are servants to men, and that lack of respect will kill the relationship faster than your differing theological beliefs. 

He takes religious way, way too seriously. If it were just some vague belief in god, sure, that could work out. But he sounds like some born-again nutcase. He may not be a fundamentalist, but Jesus/god still take up too much of his thought process

My college-age son was dating a Hispanic girl, who was semi-involved with her Catholic faith. They were getting very serious, but decided to have a long talk about the religion. Even though she isn’t a regular attendee of Mass, her culture and family are very tied into the ‘idea’ of the church, with its beliefs, traditions, rituals, and so on. The deal killer came when she said that children *must* be raised Catholic. He also felt that he would have never been fully accepted by her family, or constantly pressured to convert.

I’m glad that they were mature enough to work through this early. He’s now looking for a nice atheist girl  😉

I wouldn’t quite put the hard misogyny in there. The popular fundie/evangelical view of female gender roles is the insidious complementarism doctrine. Men and women are “complementary” and need each other to be complete. The man is more of the final word, but men are taught to try to reach consensus decisions if you’re lucky to have a decent pastor.

I’ll bet he’s not in love with her as she is, but with the Christian Woman he expects her to be. Somehow, “unequally yolked” hasn’t occurred to him, or he’s seeking to convert before getting serious. If you bring up that phrase and he’s any kind of serious Christian, that’s when you’ll know how possible the relationship will really be.

My last relationship with a christian pushed me from agnostic to militant atheist. Run before you lose your sanity!

I agree that this isn’t going to work out, and it’s not because the boyfriend puts his god above his girlfriend. It’s because they’re both at loggerheads trying to convert each other to each other’s way of thinking, and neither seems to have any intentions of wavering.  An atheist and a Christian who’s this hardcore have such profoundly different ways of looking at the world that there’s no real way of reaching a compromise. So yes, I’d say this highly likely to be a dealbreaker.

There’s nothing remotely intolerant about not wanting to marry someone who does not share your core values or views about reality. These are by far the most important priorities one can have in selecting someone to be utterly bound and intimate with for the rest of one’s life and, especially, to raise children with. Richard Wade explains why this is so very well.

Not trying to be confrontational/disrespectful, just frank:

to people outside of Christianity, the idea that you’re expected to *LOVE* (not “respect”, not “obey”, but “LOVE”) something invisible, unheard, and otherwise completely abstract more than you love the person in your arms who you have sworn a lifelong obligation to is… …. creepy. 

I am an ex-fundamentalist. They used to tell me to love God more than I loved or ever will love any rotten, ugly, sinful human. During my first teenage romance, I felt like a horrible, horrible person because I didn’t “love God” more than I “loved Danny”. Then I grew up and realized that. is. what. CULTS. do. 
Danny and I are still friends nearly a decade later, me and your god, not so much 🙂

I have dated the very religious in the past and at some point the fact that you are not willing to become religious will not be a point THEY can get over. After all you (and your children) will only go to hell for not being believers and moat very Christian people cannot get over that. 

It is a classic cult technique, to elevate a single, specific person (even an abstract person like the Christian Trinity) to always, under all circumstances, be more important than your family and friends.

Bible verse drop!: James 1:27 says that true religion is in the care of others and oneself, not in the pointless adoration of the big guy in the sky.

But when the other person’s god becomes a higher priority than you — when anything becomes a higher priority than you — things are bound to come to a halt before long.

Full disclosure, I’ve never been in a relationship, but this just sounds odd. It’s not possible to have a happy loving long successful relationship unless your spouse is your #1 priority over everything? Does that apply to all situations? How does that work?

My grandparents were a ‘mixed’ couple and made it work for over 40 years until my grandfather died. I’m sure it helped that Grandma was United Church, which is fairly left, and that she harboured a deep scientific curiosity her whole life. Nonetheless, she was devout. And Grandad compromised-he let Grandma take the kids to church. Perhaps he knew things would be socially easier for kids in a small paririe town in the ’50’s if they were churched, and perhaps he knew that setting an alternative example in their lives at home would help them walk away from faith one day. Sadly, I never got the chance to ask.

In the end, though, though they disagreed fundamentally on, say, 15% of their worldviews (and, yes, it’s a BIG 15%), they agreed on the other 85%. They found much to love and respect in each other. Belief or lack thereof isn’t the only thing to respect about a person. Are they kindhearted? Honest? Do they care about equality? Do they act with integrity? Are they open to difference? Do they treat you, your family, your friends, well? These are all deeply respectable quslities that have nothing to do with one’s religion or atheism.  

All that being said, I really think the relationship described in this post is doomed. 

I’ll admit I’m probably not the best person to get relationship advice from, what with only having actually been in one-ish relationship but for me as soon as somebody becomes a nuisance in my life I usually disassociate with them.

I wonder why he’s with her.  Doesn’t the Bible say that believers shouldn’t be unequally yoked with non-believers?

I’m sure there are plenty of happy believer/non-believer relationships out there, but this guy sounds like he’s using Jesus as a crutch — especially if he has to quote the Bible to someone he knows is not a believer. 

i agree. and i’ll add that i don’t think there’s anything wrong if people change as they age, and grow apart. the emphasis on the idea that everyone can find their “one true love for life” is wrong, imho. people change, and that’s OK. this post makes me wonder what most atheists would do in a marriage if after decades of being together, one partner suddenly turned into a raving xtian. i know what i’d do, without hesitation. 

How does a Nihilist determine what are good or bad values for a relationship? Or in someone else’s relationship? Not mocking, serious question.

sis is married to a Christian. note:  i only use that word to describe people who actually “walk in Jesus’ footsteps” wrt to things like charity, humility, praying in private, and honesty. he lives up to all that. so she’s fine with him. they dated for several years, and even broke up for a while over their differences; she refused to accept his faith or promise their children would be raised as Christians. they have learned to compromise. he takes the children to church on sundays and she’s *glad* for the time off being a mom, heh. but she also picked the school they attend- a jewish prep school that teaches children of all/no faiths about all religions. the love they share for each other is the bedrock of their marriage, and while i’m sure i could probably pin him down in an argument and get him to say he loves Jesus as much as her, i don’t think he’d say he loves him more. 

Hemant, can I just say, I love that you know the difference between “faze” and “phase”?  A quality all too rare.

Oh, and I agree completely with your advice to Natasha.  This guy has as much as *told* her point blank that he is unwilling to even try to understand her point of view, while at the same time he expects her to abandon it and submit to being “molded” into his vision of a “powerful Christian woman” (that’s “subservient Christian woman” in fundiespeak).

If it were me, I’d burn rubber getting out of there.

I don’t think it will work. Interestingly enough, however, four years ago, I was the Christian in a relationship with someone who didn’t care about religion one way or the other. Now, we’re both staunch atheists and married. So, I’m just going to say that I’m glad he put up with my craziness, though I was never quite as devoted to Jesus as this guy sounds.

Hmm, I used to be like the boyfriend. I was a liberal YEC (wrap your head around that) and my love at the time was an ex-wiccan, ex-christian, apatheist. My love for her was sincere as was my love/fear of what I believed was god. However, her religious views and history terrified me. I was convinced that it was god’s calling for me to “save” her, because I loved her so much. The relationship ended poorly, but for reasons unrelated and not before I managed to convert her. I still think back and shudder when I think of the emotional blackmail; specifically using her love for me to win her over for Christ.

Currently, I- a young Irish/German atheist- am engaged to an older-than-me Filipino/Chinese Catholic. We are comfortable with each others’ views and have found what works for us with some pretty effective boundaries. So, in a way, my anecdote implies that the situation Natasha Scripture seems to be in may be to toxic to work, but not all inter-faith (including lack thereof) relationships are toxic.

Maybe he thinks that he can “fix” (convert) you? That’s the only reason I can see for him wanting to continue a relationship with you, especially if you’re resistant to the idea of being a Christian. 

I would just have a serious talk about his values and priorities, and see where you fit. If you’re not #1… Say goodbye.

… that’s what I said

Roving, totally understand where you are coming from. I moved a few states away, and although I miss my family like hell, I’ve never felt so free. My husband and I married at a courthouse, and when I told my mom over the phone that no one is invited, and that it is a completely private affair between my husband and I, she burst into tears. I did not feel like hearing “que dios te bendiga” 100 times on our wedding day. I managed to only hear it once or twice over the phone instead. 🙂 If any of you have had the opportunity to learn Spanish and read my facebook newsfeed, your eyes would fall out due to the mention of god for simple things like noting the nice weather or a birthday.

Now I’m a happy Hispanic atheist girl married to a lovely apatheist guy. 🙂 Far away from my family’s crazy ways (even though I love them)… So I just deal with them through phone calls and the occasional card.

And they said childhood are the best years of ones life. I wish.

In love as in politics, jebus will always and forever be the deal breaker. There is simply no reason to attempt compromise.

It took me two relationships in my younger years (about 3 1/2 years of my life) to figure out that I could NEVER have a real relationship with a deeply religious person. 
I’ve seen people do it with less committed believers, but it takes a certain laziness of belief and a lack of intellectual curiosity, or at least a great habit of putting people before beliefs.  The ones who make it work generally don’t like to argue such issues, especially not with each other.  They seem to treat it like more of a cultural ID or a favorite band than a set of beliefs about reality.

Some of my close friends are quite religious, and even much more politically conservative than I am, but we meet on a more or less even field of mutual experience and respect.  It’s just not the same in a permanent romantic relationship.  The need for at least some continuity of belief becomes great, at least if one wants honesty and equality in the relationship. 

In  my (limited, anecdotal) experience, religious people with a strong religious belief have a very hard time understanding non-religious attitudes, much moreso than non-religious people trying to understand religious motivations.  EVERYTHING is about their “personal relationship with christ” (or whatever godly delusion).  In the end, EVERYTHING must be seen through this lens, which (obviously to a non-religious person) means that it’s really all about one person’s personal delusions and emotional impressions. 
If trouble starts in the relationship, it is never because the religious person isn’t listening, but because something in the relationship (almost guaranteed to be on the part of the non-religious one) isn’t “right with the lord”.  Also, since the non-religious person doesn’t take god into account when making decisions, you can expect to have your opinions ignored or at least put on a lower priority, you can expect your significant other to trust other churchies more than you, you can expect a lot of shit-talking from other churchies and family members, while your S.O. will never speak up for you but will defend nosy, spiteful church friends….all kinds of fun.  And every disappointment, every argument, every time the religious person might be expected to grow a bit or to realloy try and see it your way for a change…nope…it’s just “god trying to tell them something.”  That something is often to change, ignore, place blame upon, or get away from the “bad influence”, or at best, they might humbly, givingly, condescendingly “accept you for who you are”, which of course, will never involve actually listening to you or changing themselves.  

In short, if you like selfishness, insecurity, and intellectual dishonesty in a mate… if what you want out of your relationships is to be belittled, ignored, distrusted, and expected to change, demur, or shut up gracefully whenever “god” (aka, your S.O.’s emotional whim) demands, then go find a committed religious believer to hook up with RIGHT NOW!  It’s like a purely emotional BSDM, without any of the fun parts at all.  The fun parts are sinful, of course.      

Or sum it up with another, more pertinent question: Can ANY relationship work when your partner genuinely believes that you’re going to Hell, and would rather maintain the belief that anyone who doesn’t say the magic words is doomed to an eternity of horrible torture for all eternity than loosen that belief enough to respect their partner’s lack of desire to convert?

(This makes me wish Christians were more acquainted with their own faith. Jesus died, we’re all saved. Period, end of story, no magic words needed. Even ye with as little faith as a grain of mustard seed. Right? Right. Get over it.)

 I made the decision about my ex-girlfriend the same way. It’s one thing to put effort into making the relationship work. It’s another to be able to stop and actually consider how much work you’re putting into it.

This guy loves an imaginary friend more than you.
Enough said.

Your spouse, in a healthy relationship, is you number one priority.

This is a two way street, and that is why it works. 

“Sometimes work is simply a more important priority to one or both of us than each other.”

This works because each spouse recognizes how important these other priorities are and makes concessions because of how important those priorities are to each other.  See being top priority does not automatically mean the world revolves around you/them.

If someone claims that *god* is their top priority then barring that same mutual consent the relationship is doomed to fail.

 I think it’s meant as “when the other person’s relationship to their god becomes a higher priority than their relationship to you.”

Not that your significant other must be the most important thing in your life. But if they aren’t the most important personal relationship at the time, that’s a sign of a big problem.

 It makes me think of Obi-Wan Kenobi talking about Anakin turning into a “powerful Jedi” one day.

He is way too religious.  He is disrespecting you by not accepting your right to believe what you want, and to insist on preaching about his when you have already asked him not to.  Without respect, you have nothing.  Tell him off and get out fast!  HE is the closed minded one (but I bet you knew that already)

Not really relevant to this discussion but…

Why is it wrong for someone to put other things ahead of you in a relationship?
Most people care about their kids more than their relationship. It’s okay to care about your job or your family more than your partner. If you and your partner want a less serious or less typical relationship it’s alright as long as you are both clear on what you want from the other.

Typical passive-aggressive conversion techniques.  You do realize that religious people, especially those of the privileged majority faith, know they can saturate each and every conversation in Jesus and God and Bible-talk without anyone seeing it as out of sorts.  And anyone who contradicts them is usually seen as the “extremist” bad guy trying to deconvert others?  They take full advantage of this, puking their religion into every single situation and conversation, often apropos of nothing, knowing that if the unbeliever has no defense because if s/he dares to argue, question, or otherwise disagree s/he will be accused of “being the one trying to convert”.  Because people in our culture have been socially trained to let religious crap slide to an absurd degree, but to regard even the slightest hint that someone is an atheist as the same as a murder conviction.

No, he is definitely the one trying to convert her, using those tried and true tactics.  If he loves her and she has told him that there is something in his life she does not agree with or like and would prefer not to be constantly engaged in that something (be it faith, sports, porn, anime, James Bond fandom, etc), then it is not just rude and insensitive that he insists on  bringing it up, it is evidence that he does not love or respect her.  Her turning the tables on him to try out her way of thinking does not magically make her the conversion-happy extremist.

Ok, reading that article, I have a few thoughts. First, she should dump her boyfriend, since he can’t respect her right to believe what she wants. I wouldn’t want to continue dating a religious woman who kept trying to convert me to her religion- it would get annoying really fast.

Second, while she may not be religious, she does seem to be one of those vaguely “spiritual” types, and thinks we should “embrace the mystery of life” rather than try to understand it. Fuck that noise. I’d rather have knowledge and understanding of as much of the universe as possible. I see nothing appealing in embracing the mystery.

Third, she likes Twilight. Ugh. I cannot respect someone who honestly thinks the Twilight series is good.

Fourth, she suggests non-religious people should do as Alain de Botton wants us to do, and borrow ceremonies and such from religion. No thanks. Count me as one of the atheists who doesn’t want to see us becoming more like religion.

Clearly, religion is not the only thing that is somewhat of a deal-breaker for me in relationships.

Exactly!  Would your job come before your spouse if, say, you got a call that your spouse was in an accident and is in the hospital?  Or your spouse needs some major dental or medical care, but the only money available for this important procedure is the money you were saving to buy a book or take a course to improve your job performance?

 Why?

Mmm, I can see your point (although I didn’t take exclamation points to mean yelling, which would seem rather dramatic).
I just see the conversation as him bringing up Jesus, her feeling uncomfortable in a way she seems to have explained to him before (and reminds him of), and him apparently interpreting this discomfort as some kind of flaw on her part. Or just not caring – either way. I don’t think it is fair to make the judgement of emotional manipulation when there’s a good chance it was just – you know, emotion? Having said that, I obviously can’t make that claim either and-

… It just occurred to me that this is all about a very brief, fairly non-descriptive example of a conversation and really, the most important point should probably be that they’re not communicating well at all either way.

 I think it can work, but there has to be at least a general agreement on where on the list the marriage stands. If one person has their partner as their highest priority and the other does not, it’s very easy for resentment to build.

In the particular case of the post, it seems fairly hard to imagine that it could work. It’s not just that one person has another being as a higher priority, it’s that his highest priority is a being that his girlfriend doesn’t think is real. Not only that, but his first love, God, is “telling” him to bring his second love, the girlfriend, into the fold. So she’s essentially a vague deist being recruited into being the secondary sister-wife in a threesome marriage where she thinks one of the members is imaginary.

“The older I get, the fewer deal-breakers I want to have, because it’s not like it gets any easier.”No, it’s not easy, but the confidence you feel in yourself after truly understanding what the deal-breakers are and realizing that you no longer have to put up with someone else’s bulls hit is very rewarding.  I hope she runs like hell and can find a supportive non-believing community which does make the single life a little easier.

Run and do not look back.
 

Oh no no no no.

That sounds strongly like “if you can’t handle this difference in religion, then maybe YOU just don’t love him enough, because if you DID love him you’d let this thing go.”

Unconditional love, loving a person regardless of differences, can indeed be a wonderful thing.  But there’s a difference between loving a person and accepting a toxic behavior.  You can love a person, in your heart, however and through whatever you like; but if you accept (and thus allow) an intolerable behavior– be it religious manipulation, addiction, abuse, or whatever else– that’s not love.  That’s making yourself a doormat.

Heh,  something like that.. let it go.  Although I am not at all a true Believer, I don’t know that I would necessarily label it as toxic behavior..  To me religion is such a ridiculous notion it should not even be considered a factor in a relationship. Almost like joining some kinda goody-goody club like the girl scouts.  It is the zealots of their faction that use it as an excuse to participate in these  cult -like activities when in my opinion all of that is totally unnecessary. There are plenty of Christians that don’t feel the need to take it that far (although I will admit they are few and far between). If religious manipulation is what you’re worried about then the key word is -manipulation-, religion is just the add-on.. 

I agree, you never want to make yourself a doormat, but at the same time don’t let petty differences be a deciding factor in how you choose to pursue a relationship with someone you deeply care for.  Real love is better than that.

Don’t really mater what he said or whether he did or not. Same as anyone else who has been dead for 2000 years.  … it don’t matter … can we please move along …

There is a hard working young man named Jesus Martinez somewhere, that wants to tell you all ….. “You r savior was a damn Mexican! It’s pronounced “Hey-Zus” LOL

“Leave. Leave now. Leave now and never look back. This will not end well.”
I second that advice.
I’ve been there and done that.

I think such a partnership would be difficult but possible, but the number of “in tears” moments described here suggests to me that this isn’t working and she could do better. If she found this sort of conversation to be a casually amusing quirk of his, or if she found his spiritual practice fascinating and thought they were having stimulating intellectual discussions about it, then cool, but this? No.

I’ve been married to a christian for over 10 years, been together about 13 total, but we have done well due to a mutual respect. Early on, she knew I was “not very religious” (i considered myself agnostic until about a year and a half ago), but she just accepted it, didn’t try to change me (though I think she always hoped I would), and we generally kept to ourselves on the topic. We never did the church thing much, because we always liked our sleep too much, and now she works weekends anyway, so that makes it easy. We share many of the same values, so we get along fine.
This story you share is scary. Without that mutual respect, this is doomed. Good luck

 Mine wouldn’t, but for some people it would.