You Can’t Hate Religion and Love Jesus

I get it. I think you can wrap Bethke’s video up in one sentence, his own “man searching for god”. He is just as much rife with questions as he is answers. If ever a skeptic stood at the edge of conception, I think you’d see it with this video. Defending his assertion that it’s God inside him that matters, not the religion, he really is pointed into himself. It feels like that moment when you have circled your own mind a hundred times looking at what you know as truth and that last spin around the block it looks a little weird. Disillusionment with the system of religion is probably the first step someone makes to some sort of real awareness. That’s just my opinion, only because I’ve been there once. I spit out  a lot of comments here, never facts-I’m no super genius :). Just “feelings”, be them right or wrong. And after watching the video, I gotta feeling this guy is confused about his own religious identity and doesn’t even know it. Like I said though, just my opinion. I could be as far from the truth as this guy.

James,

Do you contest the fact that most people who identify as Christians in America unequivocally opposed to abortion and gay rights? You may want to call it a “broad brush generalization” simply because you happen to be a liberal outlier, but it doesn’t change the facts. Here’s an idea: why don’t you gather up all the other Christians in the world and come to a consensus on what “true” Christianity is and get back to us so we can be sure to avoid “broad brush generalizations” in our criticisms of the Christian religion.

You do realize how rare that makes you… I applaud your stance on church/state separation, but most Christians who engage in politics don’t share it.

Sorry, wasn’t aware people were canned goods.

The guy that pushed me the last bit over the edge to Atheism refused to call himself an atheist saying he doesn’t like the label and weight associated with it. Until we invent another word, however, that label fits. It’s silly to reject it because you’re actively circumventing the most succinct method of describing yourself, if nothing else. If the label has negative connotations it’s up to those that fit the label to fix it.

It’s not a label, it’s a word that has a definition. You wouldn’t say “stop labeling guys who put kitty litter on vomit for a living as janitors! How dare you label them!” or “Don’t label that hard red fruit thingy as an Apple, it can be anything it wants.”

Reading comments like yours gives me hope for our species. Well said.

I stopped after this line ”
How Jesus and religion are on opposite spectrums,” 
First of all “spectrums” is not the plural of “spectrum”, that would be “spectra”. Secondly spectra do not oppose each other. The cliche he was groping for was “are at opposite ends of the spectrum”.

How odd that a Xtian should not know this. Perhaps he was not paying attention in school: too busy praying?

You bring up an interesting point, but the evidence seems to indicate that what constitutes Christianity in the minds of many is evolving rather quickly. We are only able to take a snapshot of what people might believe (or not believe) at any particular moment and that being the case, we are limited in our ability to make any serious projections or assumptions based on that knowledge. We are a fickle species and the trend could suddenly turn the other way, but barring some sort of global apocalyptic event, I suspect it will not.
If we obtain a consensus on what Christians believe at this very moment, it will indeed bear your argument out, but it provides an incomplete picture of the state of Christianity, which is in a rather dynamic state of evolution at the moment…at least in the developed world. We can’t discount the idiocy that is curently taking place on the African continent in regards to the spread of Christianity, courtesy of the Roman Catholic Church.
Just as the atheist ranks are growing daily at the expense of religion, so too are the numbers of individuals who think and believe as James Reade does. Few actually go from one extreme to the other (religious fundamentalist to atheist), most of us take a middle path. While I find religious liberal-progressives to be more conflicted in their logic than fundamentalists, the human mind seems capable of maintaining a perpetual state of cognitive dissonance.  It’s not an ideal situation, but it’s something I can live with.

Keep in mind, Hemant, that this is also the dude who did a ridiculous “poem” about how you should save sex for marriage, because obviously all premarital sex is anonymous hook-ups. Said poem opens with a disgusting parallel between person who has consensual sex and a rape victim (“the damage is lasting / you can see it in her eyes”). He then proceeds to blame MTV for his poor choices, and has the brilliant line: “they don’t make condoms for sin, you can’t just butter it up.” (Ummmm….what?). Not to mention, it’s terrible poetry.

So, when I saw this pop up EVERYWHERE, I recognized him and went, Nope. Not listening.

At first I liked the video, because for the past few months I’ve been struggling a lot with my faith.  The words of Jesus that I read in the Bible give me hope, and yet I feel burned out by all of the hypocrisy and bullshit of organized religion.  I would like to believe, but not sure if I can anymore.

Can one be “spiritual” without believing a god?  Would meditation be an option?  It does keep me centered.

(I’m sure plenty of readers will say, “So why don’t you join us and be an atheist?”  If it is alright with you all, I would like to do more research before I make a life-altering decision.)

So the Christian god created humans and then misplaced them?

You are close to how I feel on this issue.  People like the guy in the video who share that Jesus never wanted anything to turn out like this are really revealing how small his god is.  How can Jesus hear all our prayers and answer all our moment to moment needs while letting his entire religon run in the wrong direction for 2000 years?  That’s a real contradiction to me.  Also on a more personal level, I am frustrated enough when a Christian will not befriend me because of what I believe, so it’s ludicris to see a Chrsitian calling out other Christians.  What brass….

I’m sure there were some nice Nazi’s too, but they were in league with a madman and a part of the machine.  YOU are part of the machine no matter what platitudes you put forward to make yourself feel better about it.  

I was a Catholic and the thought that one 1/1000 of 1¢ of the quarters I put in those tidy little offertory envelopes went to give support, transport and cover to a pederast makes my stomach churn.  I’m out!  And so should you be if you had any backbone at all.

It’s magical!  All you do is give up your rationality and follow the dictates of an authority,  a.k.a. “be saved”, and you’re golden!  You live forever!  Some cynics, like me, would claim that’s capitalizing on man’s fear of death.  But don’t it sell some books & shit?

I am a Christian, and I strongly disagree with the BS that Pat Robertson spews. He is a hate monger. Many Christians disagree with him. But there is a religious view that you should never question what comes from the pulpit and some people buy into that. The young man in the video is pressing that we should make our own decisions and question our world views. I completely understand if most people on this thread think that any argument for any type of belief outside of atheism is wrong and that is fine. I think that people shouldn’t be baptized until they can make that choice on their own. I believe that evolution is real. I believe that Jessica Ahlquist was right in the fact that her school was wrong. I also think that there is a God. I think that as a “Christian”, I have a responsibility to be as true to the things I believe without trying to destroy the beliefs of others, just as anyone should.    

He said that we all deserve to be tortured and executed on a cross. Just another Christian psychopath.

Also the typical nihilistic worldview that nothing matters as long as you aren’t a slave to Jesus

I get it.  

If I really really try, the emperor’s robes are magnificent and lavish and beautiful.  All it takes is practice.  
Practice and surrender and credulousness and mamby pamby mealy mouthed mincing around the fact that there is NO evidence of an afterlife.  If I can do that, I live forever and don’t even need proof.

I’d suggest that you can be whatever you want to be.

The words “of Jesus” that you like in the Bible are the words of men. You don’t have to limit yourself to that source. Search for hope and meaning wherever you look: Shakespeare, Plato, Jane Austen, Gene Roddenberry, or Joss Whedon.

To be “spiritual” usually means to cultivate a sense of joy and peace within oneself, and to feel a reverence or awe of nature and/or art created by human beings. Certainly, you can do this without believing in a god. There are many atheists who don’t like the word (with good reason), but most don’t have any issue with the practice (as long as there’s no claim that there is something supernatural going on).

Meditation is a method of inducing an altered state of consciousness and, again, you don’t need to believe in a god to do that. If it’s something that makes you happy and fulfilled, keep doing it.

I  don’t think anyone here would advise you to stop doing research. Do *more* research.

Love, respect, peace, patience, and forgiveness? If that was really what Christianity stood for, then I wouldn’t mind it so much, even though I don’t believe it to be true. But I can’t get behind a religion that promotes the notion that humans are inherently bad, wicked, wretched “sinners” who should feel guilty for being human. Christianity not only posits the existence of “sin” and “hell,” it asserts that human beings must grovel to a tyrannical deity, whom they must love in order to be saved from eternal torture. I can’t get behind that. I think it’s sick and twisted.

If you keep researching and seeking, you will find what you need, and that is the most important thing. One thing you will find once you let go of organized religion, is the groundless uncertainty of needing to figure out what YOU need and what YOU believe, apart the the rest of the herd. It can be a scary time but just remember you are not alone. You are a seeker among seekers.

Are you a Christian? Do you believe in heaven and hell? Do you believe that “without Jesus” I am going to hell? If you do, then you are as bad as Pat Robertson, no matter how friendly and nice and tolerant you are on the surface. 

If not, then you are a liberal, moderate Christian who has rejected the core of Paul’s teachings, and in fact a great chunk of the New Testament, right? If that is the case, then why continue calling yourself a Christian?

As an ex-christian and one-time missionary, the favorite mantra of myself and all evangelicals was “I have a relationship, not a religion.”

I tried to talk to street evangelists about this once in Portland. I said, “according to Webster’s dictionary, religion is defined as a belief in a higher power. Do you deny you believe in God then, because you say you aren’t religious?” Flustered, he replied “You can’t believe what you read in the dictionary!”. While we continued to discuss why he didn’t think he was religious (while trying to tell me about Jesus as Savior), I handed a “tract” from Dan Barker’s Freedom From Religion Foundation to the other fellow with him. He was reading through it, and when he came to the back of the cover where it said “Freedom From Religion Foundation”, the guy shouted at me, “Hey, you’re handing out Satanic stuff!”. When I said, “hey, I’m just agreeing with you guys that freedom from religion is a good thing, isn’t it?”, they just got more furious, and started foaming at the mouth as I walked away! Their logic seems to have turned around and bit them in the ass!

Christianity is the  belief in Christ.  Being a “Christian” is to strive to be more Christ like.  People expect “Christians” to be perfect examples.  We arent.  We are imperfect creatures who fail and fail again but try to follow Christ example. Church’s, Mosk, etc…..All “religions”………man made.  Christ often refered to “the church” and he was talking about the people. Not a man made structure for worship.  We all are born as impefect creatures, but given the greatest gift…Choice.  Athiest choose not to believe, Christians choose to believe. People are so quick to point out anothers downfalls, shortcomings, etc. Nothing puts that target on you like admitting your a Child of Christ.  Like I said, being a Christian is striving to be Christ like.  Deeds not words if you will.
That there is so much hate is a sad, sad thing.  I have a close personal friend whom I love dearly thats an athiest.  I dont “preach” to him, dont attempt to “save” his soul from damnatation but love him as he is.  The Christ I serve hung out with beggars,  prostitutes, tax collectors, the sick, the poor, etc.  He never passed judgement on them, he led by example as well as his words.  I dont condemn or judge others religious or non religious beliefs, they are judged by the people they are.

Has anyone even read the letter that Jefferson wrote about separation of church and state? If you had you would know that the modern day interpretation was NOT what he had in mind at all. He didn’t want the church to receive favoritism by the gov’t and he didn’t want the church to have any power in the gov’t, but what it is today has been perverted and twisted. Trying to dismantle and destroy every piece of Christian history that they can! Go read it for yourself if you don’t believe me.

He’s not dead. You can’t prove someone is dead without a body. 

I’m reasonably sure that if he existed he died at some point in the last 2000 years

I’m a very friendly person; I just don’t think religious or political beliefs are immune from criticism. I believe it is possible to express religious or political disagreement in a perfectly civil manner. Religious freedom doesn’t only run one way. Christians can express their religious beliefs, but we also have the right to respond to those beliefs and express a dissenting view.

If you think Jesus was a wonderful teacher, then by all means, go ahead and based your life on what the Bible says about him. That’s not what bothers atheists. The part we have a problem with is Christianity’s supernatural assertions, such as the one you made: “We are all born as imperfect creatures.” Most Christians use that belief to promote concepts like “sin” and hell,” both of which I find to be deeply immoral. If Christianity were just a religion that promoted positive things, then I wouldn’t really care much about it. I still wouldn’t think that gods were real, but at least it wouldn’t be doing any harm. As it stands now, I see Christianity doing a lot of harm, and Christians can’t or won’t keep it to themselves. They insist on forcing Christianity into our government. They insist on pushing their religious beliefs into our secular laws, especially laws that affect women and the LGBT community. They insist on inserting religious dogma like creationism and intelligent design into public school science classes. And on and on and on.

There’s nothing wrong with rejecting labels. It’s a simple way of drawing a boundary for oneself when the larger group has fallen into a pattern of dysfunction. It’s a way of trying to separate one’s perspectives and ideologies from the toxicity of that group and engaging in a kind of self-auditing process.

I’ve seen people reject of
the label of “feminist” because the movement has such a poor history
with women of color, trans people, poor women, queer women, and many
other groups. In spite of rejecting the label, they continue to embrace beliefs and values
that are deeply feminist in nature. I think it’s pretty understandable when a person wishes to draw a boundary between themselves and the unhealthy, prejudiced attitudes of a social group one was once a part of. As a trans woman, I understand this because feminism’s relationship with trans issues has been absolutely terrible until very recently. There was time in my life when I too rejected the label “feminist” because the toxic, transphobic attitudes were more than I could stand.

On more than one occasion, I’ve considered dropping the the label
“atheist” from my own description because of the large, noisy contingent
of jerks who also wear that label. In the realm of modern atheism, there
is a high degree of ignorance and denial surrounding sexism, classism,
racism and a whole host of other isms. Even though there are things about non-belief
in deities that I find to be very positive, I’m often one or two steps away from saying “screw it” and dropping my association with the label.

So yes, I empathize with anyone who finds many aspects of Christianity
to be positive but the number of assholes so large that the label is
unpalatable. It’s familiar territory. Both Christianity and atheism have their share of dysfunction and nastiness.

Looking at this on a strategic level, it doesn’t make sense that some atheists are complaining
about this (other than using it as a means of manufacturing petty insults toward a despised group). If enough people drop the label of “Christian” even though
they believe in the Christ tradition, wouldn’t that help send a wake-up call to the prejudiced institutions and followers who
give the religion a bad name? Won’t that help drain money and political power from a set of institutions that have done far too much damage? Fewer bottoms sitting in pews leads to the eventual closure of churches and religious institutions, especially in the unstable economy we seem to be mired in.

Furthermore, I’ll bet there’s a subset of people who drop the label who are in the midst of challenging their belief in a god, as well. Why antagonize them with the petty snark of calling them foolish for disengaging from a word? The path from theism to non-theism has many variations. Alienating those folks is probably a bad idea.

Here’s an odd notion: why not welcome the dropping of the label? Why not encourage someone’s disaffection from the crappiness of organized religion rather than insulting it?

So, if someone wants to drop the label “Christian”, I say go for it. Positive change sometimes begins with the smallest of actions… and changing one’s self-identification isn’t necessarily all that small.

Which scientist?
There’s nothing written about him for decades.

I grew up believing all this shit, but it just doesn’t hold up.

I understand what you are saying. Christianity IS a religion, but deeper in the heart of the story of Jesus IS the story of the END of Religion… It has just been retold and retold by so many religious people that it has become horribly offensive and judgmental!!! Jesus shredded the rule book (symbolically) by dying on the cross!!! We CANNOT follow Jesus because we cannot accomplish what He did… Christians have it ALL backwards and therefore those who oppose Jesus have it backwards too, because what you’re really opposing is something that really makes no sense!!!

What if I told you that the real message is that, because of Jesus, it doesn’t matter what you say or do or believe, because His actions cannot be undone? There is no one to follow, no standard to live up to… It is finished, like He said… There is no end of the world, because that was the end of the world. It was the end of the Old Covenant, and the New World is what we live in today!!! Everything changed in “The Hour We Least Expected” which is, coincidentally, the title of a book that I would like to recommend.

All that being said, I don’t blame anyone for not believing in God or opposing Christianity. All I am suggesting is that maybe there is more to the story of Jesus that makes better sense. I mean think about this… Jesus tells us to forgive EVERYONE no matter what, but God doesn’t??? There is more to the story my friends!!!

Love and Peace!!!

Stev84 said “if” he existed.  The point is that if he ever lived, he is certainly dead by now.  I think you missed the sarcasm.

I have not, but I have read Walter Bauer’s works which I have heard he bases a good deal of his work on. Is it similar?

This guy’s “Sexual Healing” video is even worse:

A poem I originally wrote for open mic at Pacific University. It highlights my journey with casual sex and the conclusion I came to that sex as recreation, or just for fun, is unable to satisfy us the way we were meant to be satisfied. Sex is good, in it’s proper context. This poem mainly focuses though on anyone who has been deeply affected, hurt, and damaged by sexual sin. Forgiveness and mercy are given freely by Jesus. He cleans, restores, and heals us beyond measure and asks nothing in return. He saw all our sin and filth before he went to the cross and it was still his joy to go get us.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlJFvxad1_A

He did…..thing is, he didn’t stay dead, he’s alive now…when the disciples saw him again, He told him he couldn’t stay or else they wouldn’t received “the promise” – as he called it…the same promise they waited for as described in the book of Acts.

Not to mention the several gospels that were jettisoned in the process of compiling the Bible, because they didn’t corroborate the politics and theocracy of the earliest Church.

Word of God, my arse…the whole thing is a man-made piece of propaganda.

I would like to see you post a video and get 7,268,958 views in three days.

Yeah, things can get pretty off-putting on atheist websites. Those websites are usually focused on the constant critiquing of religion and to an outsider, it will seem pretty raw and unfriendly.

The fellow atheists I talk to “in real time” are usually a far mellower bunch. Get to know us in real life and the feel will probably be a lot different.

If you read Jefferson’s original draft of the letter, you get an even more thorough view of what he intended to say (“a wall of eternal separation” was replaced with the phrase we are today more familiar with). He not only sought to, as he wrote to a colleague, issue a “condemnation of the alliance between church and state”; in the original draft he explained that he would not issue proclamations of thanksgiving or fasting or any other “religious exercise” (his words), as he felt doing so was intrinsically tyrannical and would open the door to a British-style monarchy.

The letter was re-drafted, the original language muted, for political reasons–Jefferson had been vilified as an “atheist” throughout his election, and didn’t want to give his opponents any more fodder. The more things change…

I’m so curious, in what way have you seen both Jefferson’s statement and the Establishment Clause be “perverted and twisted”? Who is “dismantling Christian history”, and where? Because when those types of statements are made, what I really hear is, “There are more of us than there are of you, so just let us steamroll over you and don’t make a fuss.” Kind of like King George III and the colonists.

I think we all appreciate you sharing your story here. One thing I always wonder when I hear stories like yours, though–why did it require Jesus to change your life? Why couldn’t you come to this better place on your own? I have read many great writers who have inspired me to reflect and grow as a person, without having any religious or spiritual construct around it. If I can live a happy, fulfilling life and make good choices without a Christ or a god, why can’t you? Or anyone?

Why not join a Unitarian Unilateralist church? If you find the right one, a lot of people from many different faiths and philosophies mingle there. You can find Christians, Buddhists, atheists, and people from many walks of life in the same space.

Perhaps you can sort through things after you’ve chatted with people from a number of different persuasions?

I’m going to say something that you won’t always hear in atheist spaces: keep in mind that sometimes your next step is a matter of asking your heart what is right. Logic can be helpful (and atheists love themselves some logic), but not everyone uses a linear approach to work through these matters.

Above all, don’t overpressure yourself to figure out things overnight. Be patient with yourself. Be kind to yourself.

I posted this earlier but decided to share it.  Faith. It is magical. It is supernatural. And until you believe and know you are not “good,” you will never know the power of Jesus to save, to heal to bring joy, and peace like you have never known. He walked past the cities of the people who didn’t “believe.” I believe he knew they also didn’t want to, …to believe that is. He knew many would choose not to hear Him. “I do not come for the “righteous,” “He said, meaning He has no time for those who believe they are “righteous.” Those who want to “believe,” well that’s who he spoke to. And these i believe were the humble in heart.   In order to know Christ you must want to change yourself.  “Do you want to be better?” He told the lame man by the pool. “Get up and walk,” Walk by faith that is.  You must recognize that there are many who claim to be “Christians,” but have never truly encountered Him. I had an encounter with Him, where i was on trial for the person i was. I treated people unfairly at times, lied, attacked them and lived a life of sin. That is, doing what i wanted how i wanted and justifying it. I thought i was good.  This happened when i was at a low place in my life and I was full of resentment, anger, etc. I also realized that the people i thought who loved me were not truly there when i needed them. (I was pregnant, and unwed). Neither were my friends. Neither were the churches (I was not a Christian and few I went to seemed willing to help non-members.)Not even the state. They told me i had to have a family in order to receive any kind of financial aid. I wanted desperately to have my son but had nothing and no one to turn to except God.  I couldn’t work (I had chosen to keep my child but was having a bad pregnancy), and had always just worked to get by.  I had 2 yr.s of college but had a hard time paying all the bills. I had made a lot of bad choices and realized i was between a rock and a hard place.I couldn’t feed myself as well as my child.  I was at the end of my rope and it was inevitable. I broke in two. And when i did,  however, I realized i wasn’t alone.  He knocked at my door. There was hope. And it was only in Him. He “saved,” me.  I received Him into my heart and He took the darkness out of my life. After this, the doors opened, and everything worked out and I now have a 9 yr. old son. And the Bible’s words tranformed me.  They are still transforming me. But i am a new person. Period. I am better and live better not because of anything at all except Him and the Bible , which just happened to be the only place to look for this man and learn about this One who came to me named Jesus Christ.  I still treat people harshly at times and I still get angry but i find peace in Him and forgiving others for their mistakes well not always so easily done but it gets done eventually.  I pray for Him to take my longings for ungodly things away and  again sometimes quick sometimes not He answers. There is now a window to choose i hadn’t seen before. To choose His way or the other. Yes, i go to church to be around fellow “believers,” but few have been down the road to truly know Jesus.  Many profess it but have never been transformed. There are churches who preach about Him but yet do everything He said not to. That’s what this guy is talking about.  We really answer to no one except Him, though churches still want to”own,” you and declare you this or that (Denonimations and man made rules). I go to a church where there are many who are full of pride (because of their knowledge, yes knowledge of the Bible), and serve only wanting to be seen.  It’s a strange thing that happens sometimes when people forget to humble themselves to the Lord. The thing about true Christianity is this thing called “humility,” which few know of it, it seems.  Doing and behaving like Christ as best as they know how but yet with humility. In the end we are all still human I suppose. And God still gives Christians the same choices He gives to anyone to sin or not to sin.  That’s why there are so many ill-behaving Christians on this planet. Only through Him and trusting in Him is it more possible to turn away from it,(sin) and when you do, it is freedom not regret.  You are given promises to be in heaven with Him and you are no longer your own . He has you in His hands now and you don’t have to strive any longer in your own strength. You serve others rather than yourself because you just don’t matter as much because praising the One who saved you out of darkness, well He is worthy of it. It is a dark, cold world and  humans are always susceptible to “sin,” saved or not.  The difference is those who are truly “saved,” in their heart rely on God and act out of a spirit that is no longer their own but is found in Jesus. They have the fruit of the spirit. … But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.  People working to do the right thing without Jesus in their heart can not exhibit these traits.  They are mere actors.  That’s the essential theme of the Old Testament. It just can’t be done. They judge people and believe themselves to be “good,” and “just.” But in their hearts they loathe, envy, are greedy etc.  This is how the Pharisees were. They were this way to Jesus. They knew the Old Testament inside and out yet helped no one, judged everyone,  and fed no one and condemned those who did try to help someone (Jesus) because it was on the “Holy,” Day.  Jesus told the story of the beaten man left in the road to die and the priests stepped over him but the Samaritan stopped to help. Hmm. What was he saying?  So yes, I have to say I now believe there is only One Way. Only because i saw and heard and received. I did fight and argue, don’t get me wrong but there was One good Man who wanted to be there for me and who let it be known He would always be and to trust in Him and if i did I would get through the storms of life.  The darkness would be on the outside now, and I was now Holy with Him,  in peace. Yes, always storms btw, and darkness would always be right there at my heels waiting for me to miss a step and maybe choose it’s dark path again. But I know now there is One way to be righteous, (the best we can be heart and soul), and one way to Heaven. And it is through a perfect Man who is the only One who can approach the Lord God Himself and through Him, we may be saved. Sorry for the book, just wanted to share.

I hope no one discourages you from doing research! I think learning about different worldviews is beneficial for everyone, no matter where they fall on the religious spectrum. Although, personally, I don’t think atheism vs. theism comes down to actually making a choice. For me, the question is whether I’m convinced of the supernatural claims that religions make. If you’re no longer convinced that a god exists, you can try to bolster your faith by reading books that support the viewpoint (or conversely, test your faith by reading books that oppose the viewpoint), but if those books don’t convince you, it seems to me pretty much impossible to hang on to faith, even if you are emotionally attached to the idea of Jesus. It’s not so much a choice to believe or disbelieve. At least not for me. I couldn’t choose to believe in a god. I could pretend, but that’s about all I could do.

Incidentally, have you read any John Shelby Spong? I think he’s somewhere on the edge of theism, but he seems to mainstain a deep attachment to Jesus and Christianity while having rejected many (but not all) of the religion’s supernatural beliefs. At least, he seems quite progressive and has gotten rid of much of the harshness that traditional Christianity seems to promote.

Well, if he didn’t exist then it doesn’t matter, but if he did then I kinda feel bad for him. Those followers aren’t what he’d have wanted.

Much better video! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwetTNAGC44

In fairness, you offered two choices yes, but then invalidated the fact that a liberal Christian can actually be “Christian” since s/he has apparently “rejected the New Testament” in your opinion. If you don’t want to be seen as one of the arrogant believers you dislike so, you might try looking at your own words a little more carefully yourself.

Ah yes. I was inspired also. But who always makes good choices?Who lives a full life full of  good, perfect behavior?  We pursue everything that we think will make us happy. And many find a lot of happiness. I was in pursuit of  good health, education and a great job.  Yet it seemed to elude me. It was difficult and i didn’t and couldn’t handle the stress of life. This is much simpler for some and they take too much comfort in them.  Many believe these things are the foundation of their happiness. But what happens when life throws a curve ball. Bad things do happen. People divorce, people die, jobs and money go down the drain. They hit walls. Many people value all the wrong things and when their value is placed on these things something gets lost. There’s one thing  more precious than gold and that’s the relationship we have with our Creator. He’s gotten me through many deaths in the last year that i know would have sent me into a world of depression had i not had his peace while i was enduring these tough times. We do have choices but we rely many times on our emotions and feelings rather than what we know is right or wrong. We are human and He knows it. I knew I would be held accountable for every bad choice I had made one day.  We all know deep inside  there has to be accountability for our actions, and it’s not to our parents. I knew it and tried many different avenues to find fulfillment. I found I had moments of peace, moments of joy but not wholeness, and I drank and had sex with men who didn’t love me trying to fill voids inside that no one could fill. Love came and went. Friends did too. Family was there when they wanted to be.  There was nothing solid in my life and i knew it. You will never treat everyone well. You will never not tell a lie. You will never  be a person who behaves righteously all the time. Read all the books you want. Our pastor wrote books on relationships for the last 6 years that i know of, and guess what. Divorce. There it is. No one, even a strong person of faith has a perfect anything.  Period. So why Jesus? I didn’t know then. But i realized He was perfect. And people are not good enough to ever come before someone as Holy as God. We have to go through His Son to receive grace. Undeserved favor. He was God’s Son sent as a means to save us from ourselves. It is only through Him we can do a bit better at living less sinful lives. Jesus is the way we kind of  skirt around God’s “final” judgment.  You will not pass the final judgment because it is the Law. When Jesus says He came to fulfill the Law He meant only He was able to uphold every Law of God’s. We find salvation from this perfection. He gives us wisdom and self -control.  The benefit of doing it now rather than later is also that He gives you all the fruit i mentioned earlier. I am still a single mother  and I love the simple peace and joy of  living now. Money doesn’t matter  though i have it, I am still educating myself but now without fear of what is to come. I know that whatever life throws my way there is truly nothing and no one that can ever steal my joy from me. I may not be “happy,” all the time, but i am at peace. He is my rock.  He does and will change your life if you ask Him to. He stampeded into mine when i cried out.  I . I am not sure why it happened to me as it did. But i have seen crack addicts receive Him and never have a desire again for anything harmful to them.  He finds those who are lost and cry out to Him. As i said before i thought i had made some wrong turns maybe in life but I actually did think i was leading a pretty good life. Self-righteous i was. A blind man.   And that’s the whole thing. The bottom somehow does always fall out. Sometime or another. Some people’s issues are internal other’s are external. The guy who has a drinking problem may be the kindest gentleman on the planet while the business man without the drinking problem is the most wrathful, wife abuser or child abuser. No one is perfect and some people are just really good at hiding it. And it took me to just reach a breaking point and to cry out to the Lord. 

So much hate and misunderstanding. Instead of one worrying about the other, why can’t you worry about your own spiritual or non spiritual relations? And I just love it when someone says, ‘most christians’ or ‘most whatevers’ are this or that. Do you even know MOST of anyone or just a handful?
I can respect other people’s beliefs till they try to shove it down my throat…

What do you define hell. Let’s assume for the sake of the argument that there is a God, then hell can also be seen as the place where he is not, a darkness if you will. I red some interesting ideas from a guy who claims to have a vision, in the vision a man dies, and gets to go to heaven, but he doesnt know Christ, his sins are not forgiven and therefore everybody can see who he really is, not who he pretends to be. He cannot stand the presence of a almighty God, so he flees to the darkness called hell. The choice in the end is his own.

I’m Christian btw, doesn’t mean I don’t want you in heaven, I do. But it’s my believe that the only way to be with God is the fact that you love to be with him, I find that pretty logical. I beleieve that God wants you to choose with your own free will that you in the come home to him. But it isn’t so weird that if someone chooses not to belong to God, that he finally goes to another place as where God is. It’s not intolerant, it’s just logic. If you don’t believe in god or heaven, how can you be mad at me for not going there. Never fully understood this argument… I actually want you there, and God says numerous times as well that he wants you there, you are the one you don’t need to be there because it isn’t there.

>” then hell can also be seen as the place where he is not, a darkness if you will.”

That’s called Judaism. Hell is a Christian invention that doesn’t exist in the Torah/OT. It’s gentle Jesus who first scared people with the threat of eternal burning

Of course I wouldn’t want to be in heaven. According to your Bible, it’s endless slavery, obedience, praise and groveling. Sounds like hell

I’m perennially affable 🙂

I’m not a liberal, that’s for sure!

Again, I challenge you, stop using those broad brush strokes, and look a little more into it. You’ll find that liberal Christians are actually a lot more prevalent than you think – if they were not, then there would be less of a fuss about Christian churches ordaining gay ministers, since the church wouldn’t be doing that!

I will make one broad brush generalisation though about you – you haven’t actually ever researched what Christianity is, and the result is if I challenged you to define the core beliefs of Christianity, you couldn’t. Go on, prove me wrong!

OK then, American Christianity.  There aren’t any well-known liberal Christian leaders in America.  Pat Robertson is one of the bozo ultra conservative American Christians that constantly says dumb shit.  There are plenty of videos on YouTube and RightWingWatch.

Hi Patrick.  I’m not ignoring the Bible, thanks. I take the Bible very seriously even though, as you point out, it does indeed trace from a long time ago.

The problem here is you’re way, way off on a tangent. I read the Bible, I take it as God’s word, inerrant, etc. But it doesn’t then lead me to say there should be no rights for gays, and that we should ban abortion. The Bible tells us many fundamental principles, and properly applied they imply that many things are sins – all sex outside of marriage, heterosexual or otherwise, being one example. The Bible though doesn’t tell us to make this a legal statute, a punishable offence by a government – in short, the Bible doesn’t tell us to impose this on others! The Bible tells us it is for God, and God alone to judge – not us, and not for us to impose on others what we believe.

Gee Cee, like all groups of people, atheists are a mixed assortment of people with widely differing goals. There’s a very vocal contingent that want to see religion completely disappear and everyone convert to atheism. There’s also a less vocal contingent whose goal is to simply increase understanding and acceptance of atheists, but do not have the evangelistic objective of ridding the world of religion. There’s yet another contingent that simply doesn’t care about being vocal in any way, and just want to live their lives and be left alone. And, of course, there are a lot of people who fall somewhere between those three positions.

A lot of “atheist evangelists” frequent websites like this, and consequently, the atmosphere can become pretty intolerant at times. For a different flavor of atheism, give the website NonProphet Status a try. There’s also a post currently on the front page that discusses the differing (and often times, conflicting) spectrum of goals of atheists.

Also, keep in mind that there is an extremely vocal, politically powerful contingent of right-wing Christians in the US who want to shove their beliefs down everyone else’s gullets (not just atheist’s, but also moderate and progressive Christian’s gullets, too). Some of the anger and vitriol you see in spaces like this come out of the push to turn conservative Christian beliefs into US law. Yes, there is indeed an unfortunate tendency to generalize those behaviors to all Christians, but a number of us do recognize that (similar to atheism) there is wide range of interpretation and belief and that the most rancidly vocal contingent does not truly represent the disposition of the entire group.

To me, a very common thread of deconversion is fear of hell. They no longer believe, but they still fear they’re going to hell for that.

It’s irrational on the face of it, but that’s what indoctrination does to you. It’s a bit of psychological manipulation.

Some argue that such situations may result in essentially a form of PTSD. E.g. http://journeyfree.org/rts-its-time-to-recognize-it/

I don’t doubt the majority of Christians don’t actually stay Christian because of fear of hell, but for those seeking to leave the fold, it’s a powerful psychological weapon against them. It’s also implicitly encouraged in at least some denominations: look up “imperfect contrition” for the RCC version.

The common perspective on hell in Christianity I see is http://youtu.be/lSZeNK0TA80

Also look up “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God” at http://www.ccel.org/ccel/edwards/sermons.sinners.html

This line of thought in common Christian doctrine is not new. Look up also 
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/aquinas/summa.XP_Q97_A5.html for Aquinas’ view (note especially Objection 3 and how it names the Christian God as an active agent in the punishment) and how he makes mention of Augustine, one of the earliest Christian theologians, to hold similar views.

Well i meant i posted this in reply to someone else’s comment. I revised it a bit and decided to post it for everyone to see since sometimes you don’t see someone’s comment unless you click on that person’s comment thread. 

But what about stoning?

~when the church is viewed as an organization set up by man, under the system of religion set up by man then yes they are one and the same.

but, when the church is properly viewed, according to what is revealed in the Bible: not as thing but a Person (Eph 5:25), not simply as a building or a place to go to “church”, but a group of people called out by God, His bride, then no, they are not one and the same.

The word “church”, or ekklesia in Greek means “the called out ones.” They are called out of what? called out of religion. From Matthew to John we see the reproving of the religious ones, even it was the religious leaders who persecuted Christ the most and ultimately crucified Him. With all due respect, with proper examination of the Bible they are not the same. 

To digress: Why examine the Bible? Because whether you believe what it says or not, that is where the word “church” that we are discussing originated. It is necessary then to give proper context to what we are debating about by careful study of the Bible, because if everyone were to come up with their own definition and opinion for the meaning of these words, then there is no longer a benefit for discussion. i say this because it seems like we have overlook this very basic need.

“We think we know, because we are only thinking what we know.”

Only one problem Anna. As much as people try to come across the aisle to try to find a common ground where people can all agree all I ever hear is atheists telling me how they can’t believe what I believe and pointing fingers at what they see as flaws. Hey, it’s your right to do that.  This is the failing point. How about reading my statement again with the understanding that no one is trying to convert you.  Universal laws like positive and negative influence don’t need you to believe in them to exist.

Here’s a question to ponder. What are the opposites to Love, respect, peace, patience, and forgiveness?

If you give a Bic lighter every time someone offers you an olive branch what are you really saying?

An olive branch? You’re the one who came here and attacked us by saying we were “mean-spirited, filled with venom and intolerance.” All because we disagree with the creator of the video, who is promoting what we believe to be a false and immoral belief system. You allege that your religion stands for “love, respect, peace, patience and forgiveness,” yet I see just the opposite of that in your theology, and I pointed out why. I’m not understanding your issue here. If anyone is being bigoted and intolerant, I would say it’s the religion that tells people they are evil sinners deserving of eternal hellfire. I believe that type of thinking is false, harmful, and deeply immoral.

If you really want to offer an olive branch to the atheist community, trying encouraging your fellow Christians to keep their religious bias out of our government and stop them from trying to push it into our secular laws and public schools. As an atheist, that’s all that I want. I don’t care what you believe. I’m not about to interfere with your minister’s right to say what he wants in your church, or tell you what to teach your children in the privacy of your own home. I might not agree with your opinions or actions, but you have the right to hold them. I only care when your religion intrudes into my life and affects those I love and care about in a negative way.

I think a couple of things should be clarified. As a christian i support gay rights, not because i condone or approve of the lifestyle but because i am guilty according to the religion used to condemn homosexuality. all sins are equal in god’s eyes, but Christians like to take the moral high ground. based on this guy’s testimony (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjmnoUKXaZM&list=UUc4yillQaNo6a-iG2PYbbrA&index=6&feature=plcp) he rejects man’s invention and accepts only god. now i now most of the readers of this are atheist. he rejects the facade. now i’m not saying the poem is biblical, but you have to consider how this guy views religion: “God and the bible=/= religion, and religion=legalism.”  now as far as abortion is concerned, its murder in my mind. but that’s not the point of this. His problem is what being a christian has become, a title, with meaning any sort of personal change or difference.  he’s not rejecting the faith but the modern practice. Anyway have a great weekend!

I don’t hate anyone. However, I look around and see a culture that is awash in supernaturalism, and it frustrates me and makes me sad. I would prefer if people didn’t believe false things, but if they insist on having supernatural beliefs, I would prefer them to adopt more humane and progressive ones. To that end, Jefferson Bethke is doing nothing positive. At least not from my point of view.  He’s not questioning the existence of the supernatural (quite the opposite) and he’s not taking organized Christianity to task for its harmful beliefs, either. I’m worried about that because I’m worried about the future of our country. I see Christian groups trying to insert their religion into our government, into our laws, into our public schools, and it makes me worried about the negative effects that will have on my life and the lives of those I care about.

Actually, HE JUST MISSED ONE THING.

The Word “IN CHRIST”

The definition: Someone who does things according to the Word of God and not the Church.  In Christ is not Christianity.

[In Christ] is mentioned in the Bible: Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.”

Know More:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CohBhzHM11M
SCIENCE + THE WORD OF GOD = THE TRUTH.
Evolution is a HUGE MISUNDERSTANDING.

Topics Explained In the Blog –
Ghosts, Death, Life, Heaven, Hell,
Science, NDE, Religions, Faith, Spirit, Soul, Body, The Holy Bible,
Astrology, Aliens, Miracles, Witchcraft, Reincarnation, Dimensions,
String Theory, Time, Space, Matter, Atoms, Gravity, Ancient
Civilizations, World History, Languages, Ethnicity, Sexuality, Age,
Evolution, Creation, Neanderthals, Angels, Demons, Gods, Churches,
Technology, DNA, The Human Body, Earth, Nature

i am finding my religion really hard at the moment, im
struggling and i dont know what to do. im a little scared to be honest. what i
dont want to be is an atheist probably coz i have never met a friendly enough
atheist i can talk to in real life. My experiences with atheist’s have been
really negative and I have lost friends because of it. I am respectful towards
other peoples beliefs and lack of but I find that it’s not recuperated, ive
never tried to push my religion onto others so I don’t get why im constantly
disrespected. Most treat me like im 
stupid and dont know what im talking about. i also find it funny that
most are surprised that im a Christian. i remember dating some guy who was an
atheist, even though i knew he was, he did not know that i was a Christian and
he was almost offended and acted like i tricked him into having feelings for
me. i did not care but he had a massive problem about my religion. i also have
noticed the atheist community is incredibly sexist and a little racist if im
honest. Im not saying the christian community are not but I don’t think
athiests hold a higher moral ground.

if i were an atheist i would not want to look
down at anyone or make the feel as though their thoughts and opinions dont
matter and im somehow superior.

sorry my comment was rushed so there are loads of spelling mistakes.

i was a little confused by his poem about sex.  i dont understand that whole saving youself until marriage. i love sex and am not in the slightest bit ashamed even as a christian.

 ACTUAL FACTS (NATURAL) and (SPIRITUAL) FACTS.

What is not a RELIGION is “IN CHRIST.”
Religion is the CHURCH in GOD. 
In Christ is You in GOD.

SCIENCE + THE WORD OF GOD = THE TRUTH.
Evolution is a HUGE MISUNDERSTANDING.

Know More: http://bit.ly/spiritworlds

I believe there’s an “edit” option available at the bottom of each post that you make. Using this option, you should be able to correct spelling errors and make other modifications.

Oh, I just noticed the quip about abortion, too.

Looks like we can add misogyny to the list, too.

NO THEY DON’T

Nothing puts that target on you like admitting your a Child of Christ.

In the US, where 76% of the populace identifies as Christian, this claim falls completely flat. If you think that puts a target on your back, try identifying as Muslim, Pagan, gay, transgender, atheist, or any other marginalized group of people.

Your group controls the US government and most of US culture. You claim the status of a despised minority and yet you harbor so much privilege. As with most people of privilege, you deny the power and advantages society bestows upon you.

If you want to know why you have witnessed hatred against Christians, consider how the nastier parts of the religion treats outsiders.  Consider the way the nastier parts of Christianity deals with LGBT people, women, and religious minorities. Even though hatred is an emotionally toxic way of dealing with the uncivil behavior of a more powerful, oppressive group of people, I understand why that hatred exists.

A lot of vile and hateful practices have been embraced by the more powerful representatives of Christianity. If people’s negative attitudes about Christianity bother you, then challenge the oppressive behaviors and bodies of belief which Christianity has promulgated. The Christians that call out the injustices perpetrated by the seedy side of their religion are the Christians that I trust and respect. The Christians that acknowledge the privileged position they now occupy in most western nations and the potential for abusing that power, are Christians who actually have a grasp on reality.

This is not ancient Rome. It is your group who now holds the keys to caged lions.

“It is all to easy to be bullied (physically assaulted, emotionally
abused, ostracized, etc.) by other children who have taken traditional
Christianity’s hateful messages to heart.”

Here in Tennessee, legislators are considering a bill which would explicitly exempt gaybashing of that sort from penalties.

http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2012/01/04/397378/tennessee-conservatives-seek-protections-for-religious-bullies/?mobile=nc

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/04/tennessee-anti-bullying-law-change-gays-religion-_n_1183915.html

Great post.

Thank you, Obarryon.

And just who was it that “swooped,” down and sucked me up. lol. The Lord my God? Salvation happened to me, I didn’t go looking for it.  There is no one to swoop down and suck anyone into Christianity. He saves. That is it. That is all. As i said before and I will repeat it again, He doesn’t come for the “righteous.” When a (non-believing) person believes all is good and perfect in their lives, they are full of pride, they are self- righteous. Self-righteous because they are not giving the goodness in their lives to the very One who provides them with it. So no, you will not hear a person say everything was perfect when He showed up.  I think it’s interesting that in a court of a law, It Is A Person’s Testimony that makes and determines what a person’s crime is, and what their sentence would be. 

Yes, Thin-ice, although you yourself may never be able to make sense of it, many have accepted that the full text needn’t be wholly taken at face-value, just its take on salvation and the character that saves (who said he was the character described in the Jewish text).

Yep. That sure worked to prove Troy Davis was guilty right??? And that lady who was raped and picked the wrong guy out of the police lineup??? Like i said, personal experiences are NOT ALWAYS proof of something

>>How Jesus and religion are on opposite spectrums,
to what we experience of the here-and-now.

>>One is the work of God one is a man made invention,
but no one can but guess at what on earth is divine.

>> One is the cure and one is the infection.
Outsiders distrust the labels and so won’t swallow either one.

>>Because Religion says do, Jesus says done.
Humanity has made sense of it, it’s what modern minds can do.

>>Religion says slave, Jesus says son,
we know this text to be as holy as any other ones.

>>Religion puts you in shackles but Jesus sets you free.
To feel divinity in anything and name it what you will.

>>Religion makes you blind, but Jesus lets you see.
Characters in books like god are unable to be killed.

OK, it’s not necessarily that Thin-ice is unable “to make sense of it.”  It’s rather that you have a problem if you reject a bunch of the text.  Particularly, on what basis are you selecting the part “on salvation and the character that saves”?  All the while igoring the other parts?  Where is this coming from?  If it’s coming from outside your religion (which would seem to be the case), why do you need religion in the first place?  The answer seems to be that you don’t.  But then you people go on defending religion, even when that’s not what makes you a good person.

Apparently you missed the whole part with the pharisees, the religious nuts that preach religious politics and not LOVE. Jesus is love, not rules. He did not “buy back our souls”, He paid the penalty for our sins; that is ultimate love. THAT’S why I love Jesus and hate religion. There is nothing Christ-like about the church today..

i think u need 2 get a life cuz if u dont believe in God and pple do then how does that concern you and affect your life? kk bye :-*

Sorry, Charles, but I can very much deny that it exists. “Sin” is a religious construct. It is an imagined offense against a deity, and since there is no evidence of deities, there is also no evidence of any such thing as “sin.” It only exists as a tool of psychological guilt and manipulation, and it only affects people who have already been indoctrinated to believe it exists.

Atheism is a lack of belief in any and all deities. It has nothing to do with the ultimate origins of the universe, let alone your particular deity or your particular creation story or your particular religious mythology. If you have evidence of deities, then go ahead and present it. The burden of proof lies with those who make positive assertions.

I responded to what you wrote, but if you have no rebuttal, I’ll just take that as a point for my side, LOL.

 Its really interesting how religious apologists want to make Jefferson out a Christian.  He liked Jesus – so much so that he cut all the “crap” out of the New Testiment to make his own Bible with only the story of Jesus’ life and what he said. 
He had no use whatever for organized religion.  The other founders even had to edit the Declaration of Independence to put God into it, as he kept his draft sterile of any mention of a creator.

I hate religion and jesusfags because none of that shit is real, fairytales bro.

I’m not defending religion. If anything I’m defending why christians call themselves christians.

>>you have a problem if you reject a bunch of the text

Leo, nonchristians have that problem. Evidently christians have no such problem.

>>on salvation and the character that saves
>>Where is this coming from?
Christian rhetoric and gossip. Yes primarily the NT, fictions about its jesus character.

>>If outside your religion (seems to be the case)

Well christians assume their religion is manmade but also true, or god-guided and therefore true.