The Problem with Purity

If you choose to remain a virgin until you’re married, that’s your decision and that’s fine. You don’t need to sign a contract saying so.

But the whole conservative Christian notion of getting young women (some as young as six) to wear a Purity Ring and pledge to their fathers that they’ll remain abstinent until after they walk down the aisle is disgraceful.

Libby Anne was one of those young women and she remembers taking her own purity vows:

I promised my father at 13 that I would remain a virgin until marriage. What did I know at 13? I promised my father at 17 that I would never marry against his wishes. What did I know, a sheltered 17-year-old who had seen nothing at all of the world outside? It was foolish of me to assume that I would never change, that I would remain frozen for life where I was at 17. My parents did their best to hold me to these promises and didn’t see a problem with this. Were they as naive as I?

I wish I’d never made those sorts of foolish promises. The result was only heartache. When I grew past my teenage opinions, I had to deal with the guilt of broken promises, but I also had to deal with my parents’ sense of betrayal because I had broken the promises I made them. The thing is, the promises that were broken were promises I had no business making. But I was a sheltered and naive adolescent, so it’s not surprising that I didn’t know any better. The problem, though, is that the organizations and individual parents of Christian Patriarchy encourage girls to make these sorts of promises. Children may not know better, but adults should.

Unless they’re completely brainwashed into thinking that any romantic relationship that doesn’t end in marriage is inherently evil… (anyone else wondering how many of these parents remained virgins before marriage?)

You can read examples of this disturbing practice still taking place on Libby Anne’s site. If you weren’t raised in the culture or you haven’t read up on it, prepared to be disturbed.

"“But giving her recognition for her tennis ability...”The Companion of the Order of Australia is ..."

Synfandel

Sparking Outrage, Australia Will Honor Anti-Gay ..."

"In fairness to those insurrectionists who believed the now-ex-Groper-in-Chief cared about them, he did say ..."

PsiCop

Catholic Bishops Condemn Pro-Choice Joe Biden ..."

"He spoke of his devout Christianity in Mein Kampf, published long before he began his ..."

NOGODZ20

"That's okay, I also often find myself out of the loop with my own jokes."

WallofSleep

Trace

That is some creepy picture (to me).
Anonymous

“Purity Balls” and having daughters pledge their virginity to their father is, aside from being CREEPY AS ALL FUCK, just way too transparently continuing the long tradition of women being considered property of men. Fathers own them and their sexuality until they pass them to their husband, who then owns them and their sexuality. It continually baffles me that backward shit like this persists in our society.
Kathy Strawn

What I’ve always wondered is where is the purity pledge for boys. It takes two to tango. If it is so important for the girls, why aren’t the boys held to the same standard? Not that I think purity pledges are a good thing. There is something creepy about a girl pledging her virginity to her father.
Z Lane

Google “integrity balls”. Of course it’s not about men staying pure, per se, as much as it’s about making sure you don’t make a woman impure, because she’s “someone else’s future wife”.
Anonymous

There are people who are even more stupid than that. There are Christians who aren’t satisfied with just physical “purity”, but they want emotional purity too. They think that there is only a finite amount of love to give and so by having any emotional attachment is seen as giving a piece of one’s heart away. Of course this means that natural, uncontrollable feelings during puberty can induce intense guilt.

Apparently the book that popularized this idea is extremely popular in evangelical circles
Z Lane

As if it’s not backwards enough to have this vow in the first place, at the infamous “Purity Balls”, the corresponding pledge for the father goes like: “I, (daughter’s name)’s father, choose before God to cover my daughter as her authority and protection in the area of purity.” (and so on)

“Cover”? Um.
Mike Handy

I waited to have sex, it was an ethos thing. Its also healthy. I would quickly like to address a
false choice… “Unless they’re completely brainwashed into thinking that any romantic relationship that doesn’t end in marriage is inherently evil…”
Why does every romantic relationship have to end in sex? I had several that didn’t I waited until I was married to have sex. I believe in universal law, so there must be a reason which there is, waiting is a much healthier choice! More people should be making it for health reasons alone, lower cancer rates, lower suicide rates, lower murder rates, obviously much lower STD risks, lower depression rates and lower domestic violence rates. Waiting to have sex until someone is in a committed relationship that holds a significant cost to leave has power. Divorce has a social, and economic penalty for everyone involved. Therefore marriage shouldn’t be entered into lightly and neither should sex.

The never marry against her Father’s wishes is about control and wrong and cannot be contextually supported in the bible.
Gabriel

Along with most of the other commenters I too think this is very creepy. It has a very incestuous vibe to it. The picture looks like old men picking up children. As far as waiting for marriage, it is simply unrealistic. Safe sex education is much more effective.
enuma

Part of the reason this has always applied more strenuously to girls than boys (apart from patriarchy and sexism) is that sexuality purity laws were designed to help assure parentage for the purposes of inheritance. Maternity is self-evident, but paternity is not. Since it wasn’t possible in the Bronze Age to go on Maury for a free paternity test, the only method men had of making sure their heirs were really their heirs was to exert rigid control over female sexuality.
Anonymous

Purity Balls are creepy as hell, just as an idea. First, it makes the daughter seem like a chattel to the father. Second, there is a strong incestuous vibe to them. I’m not sure what would be worse – that the Christians who make their daughters do this nonsense don’t realize how slavish and incestuous it seems, or that they do and just don’t care.
Spencer

Fundamentalists Christians like to use fathers instead of condoms.
enuma

If you’re going to criticize Hemant for presenting a false choice, perhaps it would carry more of an impact if you didn’t immediately follow it up with a false choice of your own.

Unless Hemant did say that every romantic relationship must end in sex, and I missed it…
Anonymous

Sex doesn’t automatically result in STDs. You can be responsible about it and use a condom. And get regularly tested at the doctor. Of course fundamentalist Christians prevent that too, but making every effort to block comprehensive and evidence-based sex education.

There are vaccines against HPV now – which is the case of certain cancers. And guess what? Christians are vehemently against it. Because they seem to think that it means kids will automatically have sex.

They need to make people afraid of sex and feel guilty about it to control them. That’s really all there is to it. The rest are just BS rationalizations.

Marriage shouldn’t be entered into lightly? Yes, certainly. Then why do fundamentalist Christians force people to get married as early as possible and pop out children? Attaching such a huge significance to sex and promoting “no sex before marriage” just makes people marry the first person they can find. And guess which group has the highest divorce rate? Evangelical Christians
Crystal Jenae Hollis

Do I really need my father’s permission to marry anyone I want??
Anonymous

Just do what upper class fathers did in the old days: When your daughter starts menstruating, send her to something like a convent school until she turns 18 and can go out on her own. After that, stop worrying about her “purity” and let her make her own decisions.
leanne

i had a bible study teacher when i was in high school that told us it was okay for boys to masturbate, but not girls. the epitome of a double standard. this is no exception. 🙁
Z Lane

Are you talking about the Ludy’s “When God Writes Your Love Story”? I read that when I was about 13. I thought it was the bee’s knees and the answer to every romantic problem ever. Sigh.

You’re point about this invoking ideas of “finite love” is very insightful. In addition, from what I remember, one of their big points with “emotional purity” was that if you feel close to someone, and then break up with them, you’ll get hurt and experience heartache. And if you’re hurt, after you’ve gotten over it/god “heals you”, you’ll have bad memories now and that makes you somehow lesser. Christians seem to have some intense aversion to actually DEALING with life’s problems and becoming a better person out the other end. Relationships are hard? Don’t worry about it! Just cop out and say you’re dating Jesus!
Anonymous

Yea that whole purity ring/ball thing smacks a little too much of incest for my liking…Dad guarding his daughter’s privates like a hockey goalie…yuck.
Anonymous

” lower suicide rates, lower murder rates, obviously much lower STD
risks, lower depression rates and lower domestic violence rates” ….. Wha whaa whaa whaaaaaaat!!!!?

What unholy statistical data are you gathering that tripe from? Little something to think about my friend….Muslims are MUCH better at enforcing virginity than Christians, so if you are going to try to draw a correlation between virginity and Murder/Suicide rates, I am afraid you are going to have to include the middle east and much of indonesia/asia in your murder/suicide numbers.

As far as depression goes the assumption that sex initiates depression is absolutely refuted by the data. Chemicals released during sexual contact are actually combative against depressive tendencies. Which explains why married people who aren’t having sex are much more likely to be in depression.

You have every right to promote abstinence, there are great benefits to it, but PLEASE don’t peddle poppy cock in your defense of it.
Anonymous

integrity balls…..heh not sure if thats a party or an anatomical adjective
garic gymro

So is it (as this post seems to imply) more common for girls to make virginity pledges? Or do boys make them just as frequently? If so, do they typically make the pledges to their mothers, fathers, or neither? And are boys’ pledges considered as important as girls’ pledges?

I ask this out of genuine curiosity, by the way. I’m not making any sort of point.
Anonymous

*shudder*

Creeeepy.
Suburban Sweetheart

Not only brainwashed but totally creepy, too.
The Captain

Wow, so much inaccurate fear mongering rolled up into logical fallacies in one post it’s hard to know where to start. I guess I could just go with every “risk” you just mentioned, is less risky than your drive to your non-sexual date.

But you are right about one point, “Why does every romantic relationship have to end in sex? ” they don’t, some just end up with an awkward hand-job in the front of a Jaguar.
Thomas Farrell

I think the “creepy as all fuck” part is what’s most relevant. It has a huge inference of “daddy is overly obsessed with his daughters’ vaginas and has found a socially acceptable way to talk about it with them in public.” I feel like these guys shouldn’t be allowed anywhere near little girls, let alone allowed to tell them what to do sexually.

Seriously, I’d be afraid to allow any of those guys anywhere near my niece.
59 Norris

Well, I was gonna say this was way creepy, but it looks like someone beat me to it.
Gabriel

I agree with everything you lay out here except for one thing. I don’t think fundamentalist Christians think the HPV vacinination will result in people having sex. I was a member of an evangelical fundamentalist church for about 8 years. The Church of Christ. I think that what they are objecting to is the fact that the HPV vacinantion will prevent punishment for having sex. They want people to get the cancers, genital warts, etc. Caused by HPV. They see this as god’s punishment for sex. I have acutallly heard women in Texas use this argument as a reason to not vaccinate children against HPV.
Marella

Just the use of the word “purity” is disturbing, implying as it does that if she breaks the vow she becomes impure, defiled and generally disgusting with a life of prostitution her only remaining option. The whole thing is downright medieval.
Nicole S

No purity ball or purity ring, but I did sign a contract to my bishop that I wouldn’t do a lot of things, and my parents signed it along with me, and I wore a “choose the right” ring that was supposed to cover all decisions, not just sex.

I, of course, had no idea what I was saying and basically took back all of it. I don’t think sex needs to wait until marriage, I think it’s better if it doesn’t. And these decisions are not a parent’s to make.
Wren Combs

“I believe in universal law, so there must be a reason which there is, waiting is a much healthier choice! ”
I have no idea what this sentence means. Would you explain?
Anonymous

Why does every sexual relationship have to be romantic? You want romance: fine. You want sex: fine. You want both: fine. Romance, sex and marriage aren’t the same thing. Not even close.
Morva Ádám

Surely you must be crazy. I sense a desperate wishful thinking from you: you don’t want to be wrong, you want to cling to your botched way of living in the past.

You waited to have sex? Knock yourself out. I don’t care.
But when you make idiotic statements then I’ll expect you to stand behind them with EVIDENCE.

So listen up, kiddo.
Having sex is good. It feels good and it’s safe provided the people participating in it know what they are doing.
Not having sex is not good. It builds up unnecessary and dangerous tension and creates psychological problems. ‘Sup, child molesting, celibate priesthood?

Marriage is complete nonsense. You act as if there was anything holy or exalted about it. There isn’t. Grow up.
There is no such thing as a universal law, my love. Unless you are talking about physics or something, but you clearly aren’t. Again, with your wishful, irrational thinking. Knock it off please, or substantiate your stupid claims with evidence.

You shouldn’t just throw around things like there is a clear causation from kids being sexually active and committing suicide. I’m yet to read a credible paper which arrived to that conclusion. So again: SUBSTANTIATE YOUR GODDAMN CLAIMS WITH EVIDENCE.

I’m not speaking for anyone else, but I think people who are on this site are much less likely to take stupid claims on face value. So get used to linking credible research to back up yer bullshit. Kkthnxbye.
Anonymous

As a father I want my children to be safe and make informed decisions. I don’t need to know what those decisions are nor do I need to make them for them or even approve of them. I provide them with the tools to build their own lives, what they choose to build is up to them.

Also purity balls are really creepy.
Aaron Foster

So what you’re saying is that the Fundamentalists don’t think the HPV shot will result in more sex, they’re just against it because if there is there won’t be negative consequences? That really doesn’t follow. Much of the stuff that came up about the HPV vaccine was that it would encourage people to have sex since there were fewer consequences.
Anonymous

It’s a bit of both. The two kind of go together when you think about sex in a negative way – something that needs to be discouraged and punished
Morva Ádám

Oh yes. I completely forgot to educate you about your own holy book.

Now listen up, young one, because this atheist will school you about your holy sand manual.
First of all, the bible is chokfull of verses that clearly demonstrate how women are pretty much subhuman property.
There are also multiple verses that clearly state or show how children are the property of their parents and disobeying the order of your parents (father) is a sin to be punished by DEATH.
Consenting to marriage is NOT a woman’s right – according to the holy sand manual:

Exodus 22
22:16
And if a man entice a
maid that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely endow her to
be his wife.
22:17
If her father utterly
refuse to give her unto him, he shall pay money according to the dowry of
virgins.

Deuteronomy 22
22:13
If any man take a wife, and go in
unto her, and hate her,

22:14
And give occasions of
speech against her, and bring up an evil name upon her, and say, I took this
woman, and when I came to her, I found
her not a maid:

22:15
Then shall the father
of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the
damsel’s virginity unto the
elders of the city in the gate:

22:16
And the damsel’s
father shall say unto the elders, I gave my daughter unto this man to wife,
and he hateth her;

22:17
And, lo, he hath given occasions of speech against her, saying, I found not thy
daughter a maid; and yet these are the tokens of my daughter’s
virginity. And they shall spread the
cloth before the elders of the city.

22:18
And the elders of that city shall take that man and chastise him;

22:19
And they shall amerce him in an hundred shekels of silver, and give them
unto the father of the damsel, because he hath brought up an evil name upon
a virgin of Israel: and she shall be his wife; he may not put her away all
his days.

22:20
But if this thing be true, and the tokens
of virginity be not found for the damsel:

22:21
Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father’s house,
and the men of her
city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath
wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father’s house: so shalt thou put
evil away from among you.[..]
22:28
If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her,
and lie with her,
and they be found;

22:29
Then the man that lay
with her shall give unto the damsel’s father fifty shekels of silver, and
she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her
away all his days.

Judges 1515:1
But it came to pass within a while after, in the time of wheat harvest,
that Samson visited his wife with a kid; and he said, I will go in to my
wife into the chamber. But her father would not suffer him to go in.15:2
And her father said, I
verily thought that thou hadst utterly hated her; therefore I gave her to
thy companion: is not her younger sister fairer than she? take her, I pray
thee, instead of her.I’m pretty sure there are others I missed, but I don’t have all the time in the world to waste on you. How about .. it might sound strange.. but how about you read your big bad book first and educate yourself about your religion before embarrassing yourself?
Kevin_Of_Bangor

I have told my daughter more than once she better not remain a virgin until she is married. I don’t want her to run around being a slut but I want her to test drive her mate a few times before she makes the purchase.

I’m one of those fathers that is not afraid to talk to their daughter about sex.
Andrew Pang

Let’s get the police out of Occupy Wall Street and to infiltrate purity balls. Maybe those fathers have previously hidden criminal pasts.
Gabriel

What I heard here in Texas, both blatently and subtely, was that the HPV vacination was a way to subvert god’s punishment. I actually heard christians who were opposing Gov. Perry’s decision to vacinate all 12 year old girls say this. I have heard christians say that all STDs are gods punishment for having sex.
NathanDST

I’m curious: were you given any reason for that?
NathanDST

Sure, marriage shouldn’t be entered into lightly. I dated my wife for two years before proposing, because I wanted to be damn sure. Those involved need to consider issues of finance, domestic living arrangements, what to do if children are in the picture (or going to be), who’s place to move into, or whether to get a new place, and a bunch of other stuff. Sex is a part of that. Sexual compatibility is very important to a long term sexual relationship (which marriage usually includes), but the only way to know if you’re compatible sexually is, well, to have sex. Multiple times. Try different things, and communicate about what you’re enjoying, not enjoying, can tolerate but aren’t really into, what else you want to try, etc. I happen to think that waiting until you are *already* in a “committed relationship that holds a significant cost to leave” is a bad idea. If it turns out that you aren’t compatible, well, now what? I admire the will it takes to wait until marriage (assuming it’s actually your choice, and you aren’t pressured to get married young, etc), but I would never advise it, and would encourage the opposite.
Rich Wilson

There’s a reason we consider sex with kids to be immoral even if the kid ‘agrees’. Kids making decisions to not have sex is the same as kids making decisions to have sex. They’re making decisions about sex- something we don’t think they are capable of doing in a fully informed sense.
Smorg

I had a similar discussion with the Mormon missionaries working on me a few weeks ago. They wanted me to make a commitment to live the Mormon ‘Word of Wisdom’ (no tobacco, alcohol, caffeine, narcotics, homosexual conduct). I told them I’m already refraining from all that by sheer coincidence, but I wouldn’t promise anyone to follow rules like this because making that sort of commitments actually cheapens my ‘virtues’.

I don’t drink, smoke or do drug because I think refraining from them is the right thing for me to do, and not because some church or book or supposed prophet told me to do it, and not because I think I might get rewarded for doing it in the after life, and not because I’m hoping to avoid any possible punishment for disobeying the rules. I think the same should go with people who want to stay virgins until they marry… Let them do what they will of their own accord and not because they feel they have to conform to someone else’s sense of virtues.
EvilPoet

Creepy on steroids.
Mike Handy

Lets not get into the Torah.. there are entire lines of talmud and shekinah that need to be addressed… but Im guessing you have no idea about that. You have listened to far too many Christians that dont think.

Im not saying we are perfect but this entire forum is linking all of us as one. Much like I am not going to say all atheists are judgmental assholes even though many of them are. Its not fair to lump all Christians together. For the record there are a lot of judgmental asshole christians, it doesn’t mean we all are.
When dealing with people some folks are just asses. I said my piece and I think for the most part I will let the debate stand as it is. I dont need to be right I just wanted a second point of view out there. I rarely step over these lines.
Aine Llewellyn

Your bit about the negative impacts of sex should be backed up, because you wrote it and never gave any links. Which either means you don’t have the statistics to back it up and just wanted to promote your (really weird and backwards) way of thinking about sex, or you were being lazy. Since you still haven’t offered up any links or actual data, I’m going with the former.

And while I know some Christians that are sorta-okay (never met one that has actually been very kind to me), I was bullied for two years because I wouldn’t take one of those damn purity vows. And I wasn’t even Christian to begin with.

If you had wanted to offer another viewpoint/opinion, you could have just said that waiting until marriage was the right choice for you. Instead of just saying that, you made outlandish claims that people called you out on.
Erik

???
Couldn’t you just tell her to only have sex with someone she’s comfortable with? I don’t imagine most people need to be told to have sex before marriage, it happens on its own.

If she really decides not to have sex before she’s married, for whatever unlikely reason, it’s her body. There are plenty of other things you could encourage her to ‘test’ concerning her mate before she ties the knot, sex being one of the less important ones.

I’m not saying she shouldn’t have sex before marriage, I’m saying that there are very few things a father should tell his daughter she had ‘better’ do with her body, and this isn’t one of them. It’s creepy when Christians tell their daughters how they have to behave in their sex lives, and it’s still creepy when an atheist does the same thing in the opposite direction.
Sue Blue

Arrogant, cruel, ignorant patriarchy, with overtones of incest and pedophilia – yep, evangelical christians to the tee. If the moms were that concerned about what their little boys might do with their penises, they’d be considered depraved by those good ole xtian dads. What’s next – Dad hangs around outside the hotel room on his daughter’s honeymoon so he can collect the bloodstained sheet as a “token” of her virginity? Would he frame it and mount it? Show it to his pastor? Brag about it to his golf buddies? Aaaaaaggghhh. I think I just puked a little.
Kevin_Of_Bangor

I didn’t make it a command nor did I make her sign a pledge or wear a ring. If she chooses to remain a virgin that is her choice but I hope she does not.

I disagree with you though that sex is not important when it come to marriage. Sex is very important for a happy and healthy relationship.

As for me using the word “better” I should have choose a different word but I do hope she kicks the tires and test drives a few rides before she decides which one is best for her.
Erik

The clarification certainly helps.
I also believe that sex is an important aspect of a relationship. When I say ‘less important’ I mean that there are many more important things (not having an abusive partner, having some similar interests, both wanting the same thing out of the relationship).
I think you can have a good relationship without sex (important in the case of people with various injuries/disabilities and people who simply lack sexual attraction) and that in most cases you can define why a relationship/match is good or bad without referring to the sex.
Kevin_Of_Bangor

And I thank you for your feedback, Erik.
Mike Handy

I dont want to get into a source war…. Check my points and refute them. They were concrete enough but keep in mind Im talking about people that waited to have sex not everyone under the sun that claims to be christian. -Hint in that group divorce rates are some of the lowest.

P.S. Sorry you know christians that are A-holes they shouldn’t hold you to their standards that is purely not the way of Jesus.
Mike Handy

Do some research… data suggests they aren’t much more successful than many Christian groups. It is something very personal and therefore must be a personal choice. Understand your point though… test it would be interested to see disenting stats. Personally I dont want to get into a source war so I didnt source.
Mike Handy

Its implied in the context… but I understand how that could read. It wasn’t expressly stated.
Mike Handy

Read C.S. Lewis and Bertrand Russel they have quite an interesting dialogue on the subject.
Mike Handy

I dont want a source war… unsubstantiate my claims. Every stat can be refuted biased on sample size, confidence intervals… find a stat that suggests data otherwise, its not easy.
Mike Handy

Everyone is entitled the their opinons. We disagree, it happens…. I accept you as a person that disagrees. I just wanted to get the other side out there….

I guess the question I have is why do I have to agree with you guys? Shouldn’t atheists of all people be more tolerant?

You dont have to agree with me.

Personally I am a little bummed at the judgmental nature of this feed, I had hoped for more and less accusatory tones.
Mike Handy

Didnt happen for me…
NathanDST

Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but not all opinions are equal. The Flat Earth Society members are entitled to their opinions on the shape of the Earth, but given the weight of evidence for a spherical earth, their opinion should be given very low weight indeed.

So, while you do not *have* to agree with us, you should not expect to be able to get away with making claims that you then refuse to back up. Many, if not most, of us are also skeptics, and it’s that skeptical nature that led us to become atheists. We look for evidence, and when someone makes a positive claim, the burden of proof is on the one making the claim. In this case, you’ve made claims that it’s better for people’s physical health to wait until marriage for sex. When you’ve been asked for evidence to back that up, by people who respect evidence, you said you don’t want a “source war.” Here’s a tip: if you do not want a “source war,” then do not make a statistical claim. When you made that positive claim, the burden of proof landed on YOU. It is not up to us to substantiate or unsubstantiate your claim, it is up to you. As it stands, your claim(s) can be dismissed, until evidence is presented.

While I *have* heard that some studies support lower divorce rates among those who wait for marriage, I have not seen the stats or studies, and I have yet to hear of any scientific consensus supporting that position. Even if the stats support that, I would have to wonder if it is mere correlation, with a third (or more) factor being the actual causation. Are those who wait more likely to hold the view that divorce is wrong, for example? If so, it would make sense to see that correlation, and it would then make sense to study whether those marriages are happier, if the sex is more satisfying, etc.

As for tolerance and judgement . . .
I will freely admit that I’m judgemental ( http://nathandst.blogspot.com/2011/06/matthew-7-1-5.html ), and you can check that link if you want a fuller explanation of why I’m cool with that. But, in brief, I judge because I must. We all must. Without judgement, how can we decide if someone is a positive influence, or someone we agree with, or if it’s better to buy local? We all judge. Every time we make friends, we judge. Sometimes we judge things as good, sometimes bad, and sometimes neutral. Or anywhere on that continuum. And I think that’s a good thing, a necessary thing.

So yes, I will judge you. And I expect you to judge me. That doesn’t mean I can’t tolerate you and your views, insofar as you are not causing harm. But tolerating you doesn’t mean I won’t voice my own opinion, and argue and debate with you.

As for accusatory tones, well, I’m not all that sure about others on this question, but for myself, I find the idea of telling people to wait until marriage a bad thing. I don’t think it’s immoral to wait (just foolish), but I think telling someone they should wait is immoral, as it sets that future marriage up for failure, or at least for more difficulty than is truly warranted. So Mike, if you have children, and you’re telling them they should wait for marriage to have sex, I think you’re being immoral. And that’s my judgement.
Mike Handy

not getting involved in a source battle..Pew, the AMA, barana, and Gallup all have done studies. However no matter what source I grab someone will take issue. As a skeptic I would encourage you to research for yourself… reach your own conclusions. If you find stats contrary Im interested but I will send the conversation in directions I dont want to if I bring in a source myself. I am literally that confident in the data I have looked at.

My goal was/is to raise questions and challenge the assumed position… I don’t feel the need to give the answer to that question…

On the judgement issue you are no better than Christians who refuse to understand your point of view… as for my kids , which I dont have, they will get all the data and know that waiting isnt the only answer. The entire picture is important.
The Captain

“I dont want to get into a source war…. Check my points and refute them” One can not do that, unless you site your sources!

You have made specific claims of a medical and statistical nature, that contradict what most people here have every seen yet you refuse to show the source for those so that their validity, and methodology can be checked.

What would you think if I said “The facts are people who wait until marriage to have sex have a higher rate of divorce, more cases of domestic violence, are more prone to commit mass killings, have a higher rate of prostate cancer, higher rates of obesity, produce children with lower intelligence, report lower than average scores on quality of life test, and have a lower than average income. Now I do not want to get into a source war, so I will not show you where I got any of that information from, but they are facts and please feel free to refute my points.”
enuma

So he didn’t say it, but you wish he had because it would have made your point stronger. Gotcha.
enuma

I realize that’s not what you said, but it was implied in the context, so…
enuma

Oddly enough, I had a religion teacher in high school tell the class the opposite – that it was okay for girls to masturbate, but not okay for boys. This was a Catholic high school, so the reasoning was Every Sperm is Sacred. Masturbating doesn’t cause girls to lose an ovum, but masturbating does cause boys to lose sperm. It’s all about looking out for the haploid people.
Mike Handy

agreed…. hey Im not an ass, I just disagree with you guys. Im not the enemy I just think differently… different is different not wrong. This is as bas as some of the fundamentalist and blogs out there.

Is there such a thing as hyperfundamentalist atheists? 😉
Mike Handy

I know that not to be true…read the Gallup Pew Research and American Medical Association’s findings on the subject. If you will hear it Barna group has some good stuff as well.

I would research the claim myself, because I think for my self. Even if I pulled together the most complete dissertation on the subject you would still object to it. So what are the costs and benefits, at the end of the day I wanted to give the other side.

“There three types of lies, lies, damn lies, and statistics”
Lordpeyre

As a father of a young girl myself, I’d like to chime in to agree with those who’ve said the whole idea of purity rings and purity balls is over-the-top creepy. I want my daughter to make good decisions in life and love, and pressuring her into swearing to save her virginity for the man she marries (for my sake? what’s up with *that*, anyway?) is likely to have the opposite effect. So is making her promise not to marry anyone without my permission, or guilt-tripping her for not living up to promises she didn’t even understand when she made them.
Laudie

Truthfully, I think sex before marriage is a good thing. It allows you to discover your own sexuality, discover what you like and don’t like, before rushing into a contract such as marriage.

But purity balls… Creepy stuff, there. If my family EVER wants me to take some sort of vow like that… I think I might puke my lunch up.