The Student Who Said ‘Being a Homosexual is Wrong’ Didn’t Deserve To Be Suspended

Full agreement here. The kid’s gonna have trouble enough adjusting to a world full of sane people who disagree with him. He doesn’t need a barney with the school admins on top of that.

That said, there does need to be an explanation from the teacher. It might not get listened to, but it’s a lot more likely that if the teacher stays quiet then ‘concerned parents’ will be riled up by the first priest to get hold of the story and convinced to put pressure on the school to get that teacher fired. With only the kid’s side of the story being made public, then the only info that’s out there is ammunition for the kind of self-righteous Jesus-freaks who *will* interpret the incident as persecution of a Christian child and try to get the teacher sacked. Moar info, school!

Sorry, clarification needed:  in my 2nd paragraph, when I said ‘statement’ I meant the one that the student got into trouble over.

While I disagree with the suspension, are you saying that gay people should just sit there and take it? Gay folks pay taxes, too, you know. I’m guessing a gay high school student is less likely to challenge the kid in class (for obvious reasons) and will just have to, once again, deal with persecution from the more popular view in his/her school.
 
I find it all so sad that this kid is being indoctrinated by such an ignorant, archaic view. It’s his right to say such things, but what about the rights of those he’s talking about? Spew that garbage in your churches and even on the street, but keep it out of public, tax-funded schools.
 

I don’t understand. If a student is getting good grades, why not? It’s based on nothing other than grades.

I’m not sure how I feel because I can understand both sides.  If the issue was on race instead of homosexuality, would the school’s (and public’s) reaction be any different?  If the kid said he thinks integrated schools are wrong, then I think the teacher would be praised for raising awareness about the issue in the classroom.  Even though it’s German class, the teacher should try to educate his/her students about the remark.  You don’t choose to simply avoid the issue of hate.

Disagreement is not hatred. ‘Race’ and homosexuality are two very different things. You can disagree with cultural behaviour though just as you disagree with homosexual behaviour.

If your boss is consistent, probably the same thing that will happen if you say in front of him that you disagree with any other types of behaviour, if it is simple disagreement you projected.

Homosexuality isn’t behavior. It’s just like race, undetermined by the individual. 

If you disagree, try “becoming” homosexual.

We are only hearing one side of the story but even if he is being 100% accurate in his side , I don’t really care much. Half a day of in school suspension isn’t anything.  I got 2 weeks of detention and Saturday school once because my mom forgot to call in an illness and excuse my absenses and the school had a strict 48 hour call in policy.  Unfair, unjust but high school is kind of like that.  I don’t think it should necessarily be a hard rule – all negative statements against homosexuality get suspension – but you can’t make a huge deal about every little one off incident of unfair high school situations.  When would it end?

And schools tend to have a rule against commenting on situations like this, at least until well after it’s been settled.  By then it won’t matter, this student represents some kind of martyr now and their story isn’t ever changing.

Thanks for this even-handed commentary on this event. 

Hey, my alma mater made it into the national news! Go Cougars, ’83!  🙂

The child’s belief system is deplorable, and a direct result of his religious inculcation. The teacher’s aggressive behavior, and reactionary punishment did nothing to alter the students worldview. I believe that minds can only truly be changed through education, and that the teacher missed an opportunity because of his negative reaction. We can’t simply punish bigots into an enlightened state……sadly. Having said  that – I’m glad the little fucker got punished. I’m an Atheist, and I think it’s wrong to be a superstitious, dogma touting, moronic Christian™. 

should be keeping that garbage, SEPARATED, from school. and this wouldn’t be an issue. But , I do believe that he gave his opinion, appropriately.  What does this have to with a German class any way.   This teacher is lucky this was not my boy. 

How come it’s OK for the teacher to present controversial subject matter in a language class, but it’s not OK for a student to respond to that controversial subject matter? The teacher is the one who brought up homosexuality in the first place.

And, I don’t care if it’s in school or not, the First Amendment does apply here. We are allowed to have unpopular opinions in this country. It scares the hell out of me that we are now having Thought Police. As long as the kid was not directly threatening anyone he is allowed to voice his opinion. If that makes a gay kid in the class uncomfortable, too fricking bad. You do not have the right to never be offended.

(oh, and if you think honor roll or football have any relevance to any of this, then you’re wearing privilege goggles)

Regardless of how everything really went down, I just have to say that I get fucking sick of the way Christians will blatantly lie when not merely manipulating the truth, all in order to further their hate-filled agenda. Anti-marriage equality front groups like NOM are a perfect case in point, but the Xtian press snippets in this instance work equally well.

The appropriate response would be to moderate the discussion, not to suspend people for stating certain opinions.

The remedy to bad speech is more speech, not censorship.
http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/354f1m/

School is more than mere preparation for work.  Classes should be free to have wide ranging discussions.

Exactly.  I know some don’t like the “homosexuality isn’t a choice” thing because it suggests that if it weren’t then it would be okay to discriminate.  But the facts are there that it isn’t a choice.  One can, I suppose, choose to pretend to be straight but that’s unfair to expect someone to actively deny who they are just to be  treated like human beings.  I mean, what if there was some pill that could turn black people white–would it then be morally acceptable to be in the KKK since it’s now a “choice”?  I’m guessing the answer would be no, and rightly so.

That said, imagine the kid said “I’m a Christian and I think education is wasted on the Sons of Ham” or something to that effect.  What kind of shitstorm would that bring in, no matter how calmly or politely he expressed such an opinion?

I have to agree.  We have enough corpses from suicidal gay teenagers already.  We don’t need any more. 

No one should be taught or shamed into despising who or what they are!

Therein lies my suspicion.  By private conversation, I mean between two friends.  If this were the case, I would think a friend would know the student’s belief system well enough so that it wouldn’t need to be restated, especially in a German class.  There is a possibility, a strong one, that the student who was suspended was saying this to demean or intimidate or otherwise belittle another student, and that’s what’s not getting said in the press releases from the various religious right groups.  In their worldview, their right to preach and prostelytize  trumps everyone else’s right to be left alone/not bullied.

Homosexuality certainly is a relevant topic for German classes, since – talking as a German – it is relevant to our culture. We have the gay marriage, our foreign minister as well as the mayor of Berlin are openly gay and nobody over here gives a damn.

Teaching young Americans, Christians or not, to shut the fuck up and get over with reality, can never be the wrong thing to do.

I couldn’t say whatever I wanted in High School. None of my rights were supported and I could and was punished for things that they didn’t like, or possibly offended them.

I think students should have freedom of speech and be able to do the same things you do in college, as long as you aren’t actively disrupting a class.

Although that’s not the case, so I don’t think a special case should be made for some kid spouting off bigoted statements.

Because your child being a bigot making life worse for his peers should never, ever be confronted with anything but smiles and laughs.

The classes I learned the most from — and, as a current college student, continue to learn from — are the ones where discussion is free-form. Hell, in one class last year, we somehow ended up discussing prion disease and zombies! (I think it was a class about the American legal system.)

Some of the comments on here are horrendous! Every person should have the right to their beliefs. If one person has the right to say that they think homosexuality is right/wrong then so does another person on the other side of the fence. Some, including the teacher, needs to stop taking this so personally. 

If he had said, “I’m a Christian and I think sex before marriage is wrong” would that have been much different? Some people think its okay. Some don’t. Just like homosexuality. 

I agree with Icewings. The teacher brought it up. Did he just expect everyone to nod and not say anything? Why did he even bring it up in the first place? As with ANY discussion, any mature person should be able to sit and listen to the other person’s point of view. 

JoYavin, clearly you need a theology lesson and a Bible history course. I find it interesting that so many of the comments on here cry bigotry. Look at the definition please. Saying he has no right to stating his opinion, but the teacher and other students can state theirs, well, that’s bigotry as well.

I’m concerned that the majority on here think that just b/c someone expressed a belief other than your own then that person is vile, evil and never had the right to talk in the first place. If that’s the country you want to live in, with no open dialogue then how will gay marriage ever be passed as law? You can’t expect an audience to listen to your beliefs without granting the same for someone with the opposing beliefs.

I agree with the idea that the teacher missed a teaching moment. Instead he kinda looks whacky and authoritarian. There will never be a good discussion in that class b/c of the way things were handled. Iris wants a “safe place” for students. I guarantee no student feels safe to express their opinion in their until they here the teacher’s opinion and if his opinion just so happens to line up with their own. Then they MIGHT open up just a bit.

What the junk church says that women are inferior? Mine sure doesn’t.

Yup. Because all teachers are perfect. Please. I am a teacher and I know some who have become teachers only b/c it makes them feel important. They go on power trips all the time and express negativity for anyone who says anything opposed to his/her opinion. Yup.Teachers are all knowing alright. Yeah right!

Being attracted to the same sex may not be behavior but having homosexual sex is.  That’s true for anyone whether they are attracted to the opposite sex or not.    

Heterosexuals having homosexual encounters happens too.  I think it quite reasonable to say that homosexual sex is wrong in general for heterosexuals, without getting into all the specific exceptions.   

The Christian world view is that there is a God and that he frowns upon the behavior.    If a Christian believes you’ll burn forever in hell for a homosexual act, regardless of your orientation, then that is what they believe.

I don’t think their position is that being attracted to the same sex gets you into hell.  Only the act itself. 

It’s sort of like other things that will get you into hell.    You can be attracted to a married woman who is not your wife, no problem.    Have sex with her and you’ve bought a ticket to hell.

So it is quite unlike race.

The problem many gays and feminists have is that they are interpreting statements made by other from their own world view.   Thus they are mistranslating the statements made by others.   The semantics is about relationships of ideas to other ideas.   You are lacking some ideas and therefore the semantics just don’t translate.

Most people are very ambiguousin their language.    “Being a homosexual” has three possible meanings.   “Being a[n active] homosexual” and “Being a[n inactive] homosexual” and “Being a[ny kind] of homosexual”.

You’d have to find out exactly which kind of Christian this kid is and what their doctrines are to know precisely what he meant.

I in fact do like cock, the food not the sexual organ.  So should I get all offended when vegetarians tell me that eating meat is wrong?   I can’t help it.  I was born an omnivore.  Are vegetarians bigots who are oppressing me when they state “Eating meat is wrong”?

The analogy is tighter than you  might think.   They bully too.   Doing things like splashing red paint on people wearing fur.   Destroying years of research at labs, and ruining scientists lives.    Acting morally superior. Etc.

Should teachers be suspending vegetarians for expressing their opinions on eating meat?

For a second there I was wondering why thy neighbors husband isn’t listed then I realized this was about property.    Back then the wife was chattel, and “servant” here means slave.

There is another way to covet your male neighbor,  as a slave.   So apparently the way to get around the other issues is just to make your neighbor your slave and you get all his stuff including his wife.    Especially since the 10 commandments don’t specifically ban slavery.

Most of them from what I can tell.   A specific example would be the Catholic church.   In words and deeds.

It’s not surprising because women are treated as chattel in the bible.   That’s why the ten commandments doesn’t say, “Covet not your neighbors husband, slaves, barnyard animals, and other personal property.”

Wow.  Look up the history of the word hysteria.

Did you get the impression that I think no teacher has ever yelled at a student? Or that I believe that all teachers are sanctified angels who can do no wrong?  Then I suggest you read what I said over.

“Coveting her also doesn’t mean having sex with her. ”

I’ve responded to this several times and it never appears.

I never claimed that coveting means having sex with her.    That’s covered by one of the other ten commandments.   I didn’t even mention the tenth commandment.

It seems to me that there are two facts that seem muddy: what the kid actually said and how the teacher actually responded. If the student said exactly what we said he did (“I’m a Christian. I think being a homosexual is wrong”), then I think – if his other claim is true – that yelling is an overreaction. I’m only suspicious because of my own experience in the classroom; a situation would go from “I didn’t turn my homework in” to a parent calling me and interrogating me on how I was punishing their child! Kids really do exaggerate and twist words – as the next commenter mentions (highly sanitized language).

There are definitely moments when student have malicious intent; however, my gut instinct in REALLY crap situations like that is to get the problem student OUT. Just get them out of the classroom. As soon as you respond with the disciplinary “action” of yelling at a student, you’ve already lost. Getting in verbal battles with students and otherwise locking horns always makes you look like a boob.  

If the student had many any comment in my classroom that was “gay people are wrong + Bible” I would have redirected the discussion, talk about why bigotry is wrong, regardless of your holy book, and maybe have the students weigh in on it. Chances are, there are other kids in the classroom that need to hear it as well. Then I’d take the individual student aside when class it quieter and when other students are engaged in a task and make sure they understand why the comment was inappropriate in general, and for the specific circumstance. 

But, it depends! If the comment was directed at a specific student or had a lot more hate laced in, then I’d just point to the door and write him up. Seriously, if your opinions in the classroom harm other students, GTFO.

I…um, no. The analogy is bad. Extremely bad.

Vegetarians don’t bully people. A tiny fringe group of vegetarians do crazy things and get in people’s faces, but I wouldn’t put any money on a standard, everyday vegetarian (or vegan, for that matter) doing any of the things you’ve suggested.

However, if I meet a Christian, chances are very, VERY good that they will oppose same sex marriage. It’s not a tiny fringe group who run around dogging the heels of gay men just to make them miserable – it’s a significant portion of Christian culture. Focus on the Family, Mark Driscoll, Steven Furtick, apologists like Lee Strobel, and most of your garden-variety Christians.

And even if a vegetarian got in your face and acted all high-and-mighty, it’s not the same as arguing against homosexuality. Homosexuality is NOT a choice; being vegetarian is. When you attack someone for being an omnivore, you’re attacking a behavior – you choose what your eating habits will be. When you say that you think homosexuality is wrong/disagreeable/repugnant/doomed to hell, you’re attacking a PERSON – something intrinsic about them that they cannot change, not an action. 

The student didn’t say “I’m a Christian, I think that people who act on their homosexual urges is wrong”, he (allegedly) said “I’m a Christian, I think homosexuality (your sexual identity/who you are) is wrong.”

There is also the fact that the teacher even heard his comment in the first place if he was talking privately to someone behind him (and thus would have been facing the other direction).  

Although not impossible, it seem unlikely that someone in high school would not know how to say something quitely enough that it isn’t overheard.  It would seem more liikely to me that whatever he said he intended to have heard by the class.

I think the real issue is that this student spoke out of turn. When I went to school you weren’t allowed to have private conversations in the middle of class, you got punished for that. If you want to speak, you speak in turn and share it with the class, not just with your friend behind you. And I expect that the comment was delivered with a snide and insulting tone and meant to mock the teacher. Try that scene in your head, it plays much better if he’ delivering an insulting aside about the teacher than as a random, but somehow thoughtful, comment to the student behind him. And that fact is not in dispute, he was not participating in a classroom discussion, he was speaking out of turn to a single other student, something usually against the rules of classroom decorum, and that simply doesn’t make much sense unless he was mocking the teacher. His freedom of religion and speech do not extend to speaking out of turn or whispering to another student in class, much less to insulting a teacher during class.

I wouldn’t say it is “just like race” but it certainly like race in the way you mention.

Meat is murder.

Delicious, delicious murder.

Uhm yes it does. The idea is that a person covets. If you put ANYTHING or ANYONE above God then that is a sin. If you have a sexual desire outside of the marriage relationship then that would be considered having an adulterous heart.

This was true at the time of my original posting. A few more have commented now. Saying to the effect that they don’t like what the student said, but that he has the right to say it. I’m cool with that. Just as I’m cool with the someone speaking about the opposite opinion too. They are beliefs and opinions. The teacher over reacted. 

I agree with the student. But if one of my students (I am a teacher) said something that I didn’t agree with I might probe just a bit to get them to think their comment through. I do that with anyone just to see if it’s an honest, articulated original though or if they are simply repeating what someone has told them to believe. I try to get my students to think for themselves and become life-long independent learners. I want them all to be skeptics to a certain level regardless of what I believe. If asked I will volunteer my beliefs, but ONLY if I am asked. As a teacher, I understand that what I say can have a major influence on a student. I don’t want someone believing what I say of believing the opposite of what I say, just b/c it’s my beliefs. It normally doesn’t happen at my grade level (Jr/Sr level) but I’ve seen it happen at lower levels before. I’m sure it could happen anywhere!

True. People with good grades don’t have to have good behavior. But as a teacher, I would say a good grade means that the student has good behavior most of the time. One has to be on task almost every waking second that they are in my classroom or their grade will be effected.

More details emerge. Turns out the student is part of a group of four who harassed the teacher all year long:
http://www.dallasvoice.com/lgbt-groups-fort-worth-teacher-suspended-student-victim-anti-gay-harassment-1090417.html

His account contradicts Ary and his lawyer’s version of events, and has been substantiated by several of the other students in class at the time. We found Mr. Franks’ explanation entirely credible. He reports (and has reported to his school) repeated acts of anti-gay harassment by several students that occurred this and last year, including by a group of four specific boys in this class, of whom Ary is one. Among other incidents, Mr. Franks maintains a “word wall” for his German IV class on which he posts articles and images from several journals, including the German magazine, Stern. One of these articles concerned gay rights in Germany, and included a photo of two men kissing. The group of four boys concerned was sitting near this image immediately before Mr. Franks found it had been ripped from the wall. The student and his lawyer are now asserting that including this photo among the others constituted his teacher’s “imposing acceptance of homosexuality” in his classroom. These students subsequently took every opportunity to denounce homosexuality in class, frequently without context; that is, with the topic having otherwise been broached.

On the particular day in which this incident occurred, Mr. Franks was opening class when the topic of Christianity in Germany was broached by one student, who asked what churches were there, another whether they read the Bible in English, etc. Franks asserts that the topic of homosexuality was not broached in any way, and that Ary‘s assertions to the contrary are entirely false. At this point, Ary declared, with a class audience, “Gays can’t be Christians; homosexuality is wrong,” looking directly at Mr. Franks

Since I am small minded and unable to grasp metaphor, I’m gonna boil down my argument for you.

I don’t give a flying fuck what analogy you use – it’s bigotry to think less of another human being because of their orientation (which, by the  way, was the distinction I made when you quoted me saying that I was twisting words – rather, I was merely clarifying the difference between the two statements). It doesn’t matter how many extremists you have or the “amount” of bullying that happens. It doesn’t matter what holy book you use to justify it.

You have no right to put others down or make them feel excluded in a classroom, regardless of how strongly you hold your “opinion”. Every student in every classroom in every public school has the right to a learning environment where the students are treated like equals, even if the student isn’t in the minority.

I don’t know if the student in question directed the statement exactly as recorded here and I certainly feel that teacher’s reaction (if it happened as described) was overkill; however, the statement was wrong and poisonous and merited some sort of disciplinary action.

Religion is not a “get-out-of-jail-free” card for expressing “opinions” when those beliefs affect other people. Period.

Oh, and for the record, I’m curious as to how you go about navigating between the disagreement with the act of homosexuality and the…urge…as you put it. Given that you aren’t in the bedroom of every gay person, I think that would be a tough distinction to make.

You are saying that the school ground has to be a safe place for learning, and that his opinion has to be voiced somewhere other than at a school. — Do you see where your logic is WRONG?

I am not taking one side over another, but:If you can’t voice opinions at a school, then you can’t be teaching about homosexuality either… because once again that is an opinion.If you can’t voice opinions at school, then you can’t be teaching about evolution over creation either … because that is an opinion.If you can’t voice opinions at a school, then you can’t be teaching about numerous issues … because it’s always an opinion.You can’t have first amendment rights apply to only one side of the issues, because then what point is there in having rights in the first place. Wherever you stand on any issue: you have the right, I have the right, we all have the right to speak our minds, no matter what the issue. This isn’t about racism, sexism, heterosexism…. this is about a belief. this is about speaking an opinion. This isn’t bigotry. This was an opinion from a student who had a belief, whether he wasn’t able to handle his opinions in a civilized manner is the issue. He may have spoken out of turn…. but we by no means have the entire story. We will always have 2 sides to every story. 

If he did speak out of turn as Mr. Franks claims, then yes he should have been reprimanded…. but, if it was in context and it was only spoken to a classmate, not to the entire class, then in no way did he deserve to be reprimanded.

No, I’m not confused. I assume you are not from the US since you wrote “behaviour”. So I will forgive your ignorance of the US Constitution. It is neither Holy nor Sacred. It is the foundational document of US law. The First Amendment protects free speech and this extends to students in school.

The student expressed an opinion. He was not inciting violence or expressing a desire to do anything bad against homosexuals. He might as well have said, “I don’t like chocolate ice cream. I would never eat it.” This does not mean that every chocolate ice cream eater in the class should feel oppressed and threatened. It just means they have different tastes.

I fail to see how expressing an opinion in a controlled classroom setting would make like “miserable” for any other kid. No one was singled out or confronted about their sexuality (except maybe the teacher himself, as later articles have indicated), and regardless, it is still OK for the student to have his opinion. It may be unpopular, and that is exactly the type of speech the First Amendment is meant to protect.

Jamey Rodemeyer was actively, directly bullied. This is not even remotely the same situation. The student did not harass or bully anyone when he said he thought homosexuality was wrong. If anything, he risked becoming a victim of harassment himself by stating a minority opinion.

Point taken that perhaps anti-gay sentiment is more mainstream in TX than some other states. Although I’ve never been there so I can’t say for sure.

I think you just got to the crux of the problem here when you said We need to evaluate opinions based on who is saying them, the context, history, etc. Exactly!

This is what school is supposed to be for: Giving our kids a better understanding of our world and our place in it.

Instead of taking the student’s blanket statement as an excellent opportunity for a discussion on the history and context of Christian anti-gay beliefs and the persecution of homosexuals, the teacher just basically told the kid to shut it and get the heck out. That didn’t teach anyone in the class anything, did it?

Also, I can guarantee that someone somewhere has been murdered for not liking chocolate ice cream. We have to be careful about censoring opinions and assigning greater moral value to them. I support a person’s right to be racist, sexist, homophobic, whatever…I do NOT support a person abusing, ostracizing, intimidating etc. a person based on that prejudice. Do you see the difference?

How about the teacher putting up a picture of 2 men kissing? … I think that that is part of the story.  The bottom line is that a person’s sexual proclivities should remain in the privacy of their own home … period. Yes, bullying is wrong but what will NEVER work is trying to force homosexuality as a “norm.” It just isn’t in any domain …

I’ll grant you that but STILL, forcing homosexuality as a “norm” will never work because it ISN’T … and that is NOT a religious comment since I’m not a religionist. … and yes, homosexuals should NOT be bullied but instead be protected under the laws that apply to all against that kind’ve thing, regardless of orientation.

Being left handed isn’t normal.

Most people are born right handed.
Some people are born ambidextrous.
Left handed people can learn to use their right hand fairly well, but they’re still left handed.
There’s evidence of a genetic link, but it’s still unclear.  Interestingly, identical twins have a high frequency of one left handed, one right handed.
In many cultures left handedness has been seen as evil or deficient, or, ‘not normal’.

There are a lot of ‘abnormal’ things in our world that we don’t pretend don’t exist.   People are born with sex chromosomes other than XX or XY.  People are born with dwarfism.  People are born blind, or deaf, or both.  People are born as conjoined twins.   Heck, a ‘normal’ person has black hair and brown eyes.  Should we make sure we have no pictures of blue-eyed people in the classroom? 

a specious argument. you’re trying to start with a belief and then justify it.

What belief is that?  That gay people exist?  That gay people have existed at least since the dawn of human history?  That gay people have existed even in cultures that killed them?

‘Normal’ is irrelevant.  Atheism isn’t normal, since the vast majority of the planet is religious.  So what?  What does pretending gay people don’t exist accomplish?
 

uh. Not normal Rich but Natural.

A vagina, by design, goes with a penis at the physical level and that is but the tip of the iceberg when considering the whole. Man gives woman and woman give man and together they give life and that is NOT a religious statement.   … carry on

Once again, you’ve responded to none of my points.

The fact remains that you were not born homophobic, and neither was anyone else.

You obviously weren’t raised in an accepting environment. I was, and I can tell you that children do not see homosexuality as problematic unless they are taught to do so. 

Your homophobia makes no sense. It’s not logical. It’s as much an acquired belief as religion. If it’s not based on religion, then it must surely be based on the stigmatization and silence surrounding homosexuality that you witnessed growing up.

Calling names (my “ilk”?) is ridiculous. One day I will “see the light” and embrace homophobia? Why? Why on earth should I feel upset or threatened by the LGBT community? More to the point, why are you?

P.S. Why do anti-gay people always insist that they have gay friends? Do your friends know that you consider them inferior?

Once again, you’ve responded to none of my points. 

People who resort to ‘ilk’ as a rhetorical device seldom do.

Heck, I sure hope Bob doesn’t use his mouth for anything other than talking and eating!