A Question About Circumcision

I opted out of circumcision for my son.  I was asked what I would tell him when kids made fun of him in the locker room for it. Honestly, I’d tell him to ask them why they’re staring at his junk. Anyway, to me it’s a non issue. Body modification is best left up to people when they’re 18 and can make their own life decisions. I wouldn’t pick out a tattoo or a piercing for him, why would I opt to cut perfectly healthy skin off either?

When I had my son in 1991, I told the people at the hospital I did not want him circumcised. You would not believe the amount of paperwork they made me sign immediately after his birth because I opted OUT of the procedure. It’s 20 years later and my son is showing no signs of wanting to be cut.

When I was born I was under weight so my parents held off circumcision which was a universal practice then (1965).  They then decided not to do it at all.  I’ve never had any health or cleanliness issues and when my son was born we decided not to have him circumcised and he hasn’t had any issues either.

A friend who I have know since we were both three was thinking about not having his son circumcised and wanted to ask some one about it but in the thirty years we had known each other he never noticed I wasn’t.  Guys don’t look, if they look it is when they are young and nonjudgmental. 

Lately I’ve heard a bit about men in sub Saharan Africa getting circumcised to prevent the spread of STDs but I think this is in a population resistant to safe sex practices.  

Exactly.  This is where I always come down.  No one would circumcise their child, ever, if it weren’t already culturally accepted based on some old middle-eastern tribal custom inexplicably retained into many modern western religions.  If we put things into perspective, we can say that there are tiny benefits along with a tiny possibility of catastrophic consequences.  The medical downsides make circumcision hard to outlaw, but we should feel comfortable rejecting nonsensical and violent old tribal rituals.

Heck no! There’s no reason to get a little boy circumcised. Reading this reminds me of one of the reasons I’m glad I had a girl… I didn’t have to worry about being pressured into that!

I’d probably still go along with it, if my doctor recommended it, indeed if a number of doctors recommended it. Here’s a counter-example to the literally bold grammatically annoying paragraph above: if you’d never been told that you were part of a large group of people, 99% of whom you’ve never met and never known, 99% of whom you’ve never seen or heard from, would you think that you have any tangible connection to them? Would you think that you were related to them and shared actual common goals and sentiments about the world? Now, let me ask you the following too: Are you patriotic? If you’re at all patriotic or identify as being a member of any so-called nation, then you’ve given in to a belief system that based solely on ideas and convention–nationalism. There’s no basis for it, and if someone hadn’t led you to believe that it were true, you wouldn’t believe in it. Yet, because the majority of people do it, it becomes an acceptable custom, one which we almost _must_ follow in order to be dutiful citizens. (Incidentally, I don’t believe in being patriotic; I’m only making a point.)

Don’t choose to circumcise or not circumcise based on whether it’s just a custom or an unnecessary surgery. I’d do it only because I’d want my son to be “normal” in his society, especially with regard to attraction and sex. But I also feel similarly that circumcision is a violent and otherwise unnecessary procedure. Bottom line: I’d still have it done for his sake–though he could always have it done in later years of his own volition.

The doctor who delivered me circumcised me before he even handed me to my parents, and certainly without their consent. That was back in 1954, but it still strikes me as bizarre.
In answer to your question, consider that in most of sub-Saharan Africa AIDS is an epidemic, and not one confined to certain unpopular minorities (gays and drug users). The only demonstrated advantage of circumcision is that it substantially reduces the odds of spreading HIV. So if I lived in the Congo, for example, I might well get my son circumcised.

This is body mutilation pure and simple.. if my sons (3 of the) really wanted to go get circumcised.. they can do so when they are adult enough to decide for themselves

something done the majority
of the time?? now I’ve not done an extensive market research, and being
straight I haven’t had cause to look into the matter in any depth, but I
would have imagined it was something only even considered in religious
circles nowadays, if I ever had a child it would not even come under
consideration for a split second!!

You should check out the Penn & Teller on circumcision. There is NO justification to circumcision. People drag out the health studies which when exposed to closer scrutiny fail to deliver. Without turning this into a somewhat explicit post, the foreskin improves things for when they flying solo and with a partner… It is not common in Europe any more so why here?

confounding variables haven’t been well controlled for in studies that supposedly show what you are suggesting.

(specifically, the confounding variable of religion which would potentially have an effect both on circumcision rates and on rates of risk taking behavior that could increase HIV infection)

I’m not exactly holding my breath for better research, either…

I’m pleased to say this isn’t really an issue in the UK. As far as I know, it’s mainly religious people who circumcise their sons there. A few people (like me) have to be circumcised a little later for medical reasons. People who do it at birth for non-religious reasons are very much in a minority.

I really don’t get this notion of women being freaked out by uncircumcised penises. How’s that work exactly? Admittedly, I’m no Wilt Chamberlain, but the women I have been with have never been freaked out.  If the penis is erect and the foreskin retracted (the usual state during sexual encounters) you’ve got to be inspecting awfully closely to even notice. I have been with women who didn’t even realize I wasn’t circumcised until well into the relationship. If a woman is really interested in a man is she actually going to turn tail and run when she sees his foreskin? Or would she be more likely to just get used to it? That kind of obsession with whether or not a man has a foreskin borders on fetishism, and if that’s your kink so be it, but only wanting sex with men who have been surgically altered IS a kink, not a common reaction.

The advantage is only very slight, and goes to nil if he’s using condoms like he should.

My husband and I were in agreement that we would not circumcise our son. It was a less than one minute conversation that went something like this:  Me- “We’re not circumcising, right?” Him- “Hell no”  End of conversation. My son (now almost 10) couldn’t care less that he doesn’t look like his dad. When we went in to Labor & Delivery, I made sure to tell them that we did not want to circumcise. A note was made and no further mention of it was made. 

Apparently in China, it is very common for men to be circumcised by a laser-based procedure later in life, before and after puberty. I face the same dilemma as the writer, but I have decided not to circumcise my son due to his lack of choice. If he chooses, he can easily have it done later. Reversing the procedure, and more importantly, reversing the trauma from the initial procedure, is much more difficult.

No pressure from doctors, but several friends raised eyebrows when we declared we would not circumcise our boy.  I got into a nasty FB comment war with some idiot who got very defensive when I said it was pointless genital mutilation….. his argument was that since HE was circumcised by his wonderful, loving parents, then circumcision must be healthy and normal and good, because good people would never do anything that was bad or wrong.   Conform conform conform!   sigh.  

Born from a Jewish mum
and Catholic father I was neither baptized nor circumcised. Of course I now
applaud them as they left it up to me to make a choice (which of course I never
did).

However due to medical
problems (nothing serious) I think it would have been easier if I had been
circumcised as a baby.

And as for girls, if
not circumcised, shouldn’t be a problem at all.

And if he somehow finds that he has trouble with women later in his life, he can still chose to get cirumcised

You really don’t see a difference between verbally expressing an opinion and cutting off a body part?

Thank-you for leaving your son whole! The statistics of circumcision in the US are actually 32.5% (in 2009) and steadily dropping.

Thereby making the other kids feel inadequate? Because of a procedure they had no decision in?

Thank-you for planning to take your WHOLE son home from the hospital.

If they’re picking on him? By all means. If a kid is making fun of my kid’s penis, he has certainly earned having the tables turned on him.

If he’s using condoms then the health risks outweigh the minimal chance that it might help. Plus again, if he wants the minimal chance of a benefit there’s plenty of time to decide for himself.

Thank-you for keeping your sons intact! 🙂

I guess I’m the only parent here who circumcised.  We discussed it briefly.  Hubby is cut and so we had the Kid cut as well.  No other reason other than asthetics and all of the men in both families are cut.  The procedure they used appeared to be safe and relatively painless.

I have been verbally crucified a hundred times for choosing to have the procedure done and I’m debating not even posting this for fear of more here.  I didn’t even know this was a huge deal until my son was 5 years old or so, and it was brought up on a parenting forum I frequented at the time.  Wow, the language these people used toward me was shocking and scared me away permanently.

I don’t know if I would circumcise again, knowing what I know now.  It’s hard to know the answer to that considering I’ll never be in that position again.  But I do not regret it for my son.  He prefers his circumcised penis (having seen the alternative in medical type books) asthetically, so that’s all that matters to me.  If he had a problem with it now, I might feel differently.

So you’d cut off a body part instead of handing him a condom? Yeah, that makes sense.

Thank-you!

Thank-you for keeping your sons intact! 🙂

At 34 I recently underwent a circumcision for purely medical reasons (balanitis).    Before the procedure I spent some time reading up on it and found masses of amounts…..of uninformed opinion….and very little solid information.   This is a perfect example of an area where people make their minds up and then find (or make up) the evidence that supports their position.

After undergoing the procedure I can say for certain that if I had sons (I dont…just daughters) I would never put them through such a procedure for a non medical reason.   Personally I think its insane to do so.  Id think its insane even if I hadnt undergone the procedure.     None of the usual pro-circumcision arguments make any sense – aesthetics, hygiene, etc.   And as for the argument that it helps preventing risk of infection with HIV …..well you know what they say about extraordinary claims requiring extrordinary evidence.    Personally I think getting people to use condoms would be an easier argument to make than getting people to put themselves through this procedure.    

Thank-you for saving your son from this barbaric procedure!

Thanks for keepin’ him whole! 🙂

Thank-you!

From someone who is uncut I can tell you why they do that to you at birth. Because if they wait until you are conscious and aware of your body, you will FIGHT TO THE DEATH before you let someone cut off part of your penis!!!!!
Imagine if somebody said they just wanted to just cut the head off of it. You still get to keep the shaft. It’s not necessary, it just REDUCES RISK of certain diseases and certain women have stated a preference for it, cool? Yeah right!  F*CK THAT!!!!
Disease risk? SHOWER. USE CONDOMS! Cleaning an uncut penis probably takes a whole SECOND AND A HALF longer than an cut one. Washing between your toes is harder. If your foreskin is seriously increasing your genital health risks, you are probably at risk from any number of other diseases from just being a generally filthy, unsanitary person.
And as for women’s preference… if you get to the part where she wants your cock to come out, weather or not you have a foreskin is not likely to be a dealbreaker. In over twenty years and as many women, not a single one flinched or hesitated when they saw it, including a few who had voiced a preference for cut penises out loud previously. (If you roll the skin back, it looks exactly the same except it doesn’t have that half-inch ring of scar tissue where it used to be. If they don’t see it flaccid, many don’t even realize it is uncut until they start handling it. And a number of the women who stated they (thought) like circumcised penises more *changed their positions on the subject* after actually encountering one.)

Seriously, reasons to cut off a foreskin are about as tenuous as pretty much every thing else that comes out of the Bible. The degree of suffering is different, but the offense is qualitatively the same as banning bacon or stoning adulterers, and should be thought of as equally barbaric and outdated. If it really is psychologically traumatic to a boy to be uncut, he can have the procedure done at any time in his life, but once it’s gone, it’s gone. (Statistically, very VERY few boys choose to be circumcised once they have grown out of infancy intact.) He may get teased before adolescence (but not as much as this procedure is becoming less popular worldwide), but trust me, once he’s grown and having adult relations, he will be grateful.

As the author of the article.

http://therealmichaelbrown.com/

It really says it all, in a quick post. I went from believing it would open a child up to harassment. And maybe it still will. Hopefully, I will be able to make sure my son is well informed and comfortable with himself, so that if it does become an issuer, he will respond appropriately and with either humor or non chalant.

Maybe something like “well, ask your mom if she prefers mine to uncircumcised penises”

Just kidding. But since I only went to school with one guy who was uncircumcised. It was kind of a big deal. Now I don’t remember him being harassed, but maybe he did feel different.

I know this. It is less and less often done. Which is great so i think he will be in gym class with other kids who haven’t had it done. More than i did anyway.

And I really think i will explain everything well enough for him to understand, that later in life he will LOVE that he has all that extra protection and lubrication.

And so will his partner.

Thanks for all of the comments. I am very surprised by the outcome of something i wrote a month ago. It was written for family and friends and until yesterday had only 5 views…now it has 1000. The power of the internet.

hope you will read some of my other posts as i go along.

The blog is all about “thinking for yourself” which i think people think they do, even when they don’t. I know i have had to challenge myself to think about something and come back with what I myself truly think about a subject and not just because it was taught to me or because it was a popular view.

Cheers

Great post! And I agree that banning bacon is barbaric!

As for circumcision, I must be one of the few women who prefers intact males. I think circumcised penises look injured or damaged. Intact penises look and feel better imho.

Anyone who circumcises their son so he looks “like his daddy” has some kind of weird incestuous thing going on. Why on earth would a kid want to compare his sexual organs to his father? Unless he secretly wanted to BE his father and have sex with his mom? Hmmmm? Ewww!

Most women don’t get “freaked out”.  Those that do have serious problems.

I wonder if this is a growing trend.

Yes.  Quickly.  

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=129362160

Circumcised babies born now in most states will be the minority in the locker room.

Can I just ask why you’re going around thanking people for not circumcising their children? It’s their personal decision. What does it matter to you whether somebody’s child is circumcised or not?

Sorry, but it really bothers me when people who are vehemently against male circumcision, go around patting people on the back who just happen to agree with them.

I think of it not as mutilation, but as a personal choice. I listed some piss-poor reasons on Blag Hag for getting my son circumcised, and I admit that they were weak reasons for doing so, but in the end I considered it a personal preference, one that I shrugged off and agreed to when the doctor asked, seeing as how I didn’t have any good reason not to.

From personal experience, I have never had a problem having a circumcised penis, and don’t see how it’s anybody else’s business whether my own son has one or not. I never experienced any ill effects (either personally or with peers in the locker room, girlfriends, etc.), so I was always OK with it. I never once considered it mutilation, never once thought ill of my parents for having it done to me as a baby. I certainly don’t remember the pain, and there has (thus far) never been demonstrated any correlation with circumcision and any permanent effects or damage (except in a small minority of cases).

Any reasons that I have seen or have been told for not having one’s son circumcised all amount to personal reasons.

That’s what someone said to someone else about something that happened in an elevator.  That there are more important issues doesn’t make it unworthy of discussion, or unimportant to my son.

As a woman, I would be very offended if a lot of men were out there saying that I must mutilate my genitalia to “look good”. Hell, I divorced my first husband because he said my boobs weren’t big enough and that I should have implants. (Well, that was one of the reasons) My point is that I think it’s incredibly sexist to expect genital mutilation for our men when they seem perfectly happy ( and healthy!) with an uncut penis. The same as I consider it sexist to expect a woman to get fake boobs because YOU liked them without considering how she felt about it.  And guys, there are lots of ladies out there who love uncircumcised men.

Parents make all sorts of decisions
that have much greater impact on a childs life (for better or for worse)
than circumcision.  If you are comparing circumcision to “mutilation” – you simply have a very screwed up perspective.  You can reasonably argue the advantages and disadvantages for it (and there are both).

” don’t see how it’s anybody else’s business whether my own son has one or not.”… the implication being that you ‘own’ your son.

Listen, I was circumcised as an infant, so I had no choice in the matter.  I wish my parents *hadn’t*.  Let that be a personal preference.  Who’s penis is it, anyway?

Its genital mutilation plain and simple, luckily in my country almost no man has it done and  almost no parents force it upon their kids

I agree, the judgemental behavior of  those opposed to circumcision is pretty over-the-top.  My kids are young adults, and circumcised.  If I were making the decision now, I would probably not choose circumcision.  But in the 80s, there was less information about circumcision, less push against it, and everyone we knew did it. 

For our first, we discussed it a little, read what we could.  There was some suggestion of protection from AIDS and cancer with circumcision.  I ultimately left the decision up to my husband, him being male and all.  He was very torn, but decided that looking like Daddy (and everyone else we knew) mattered enough to sway the decision.  (And the poster who thought such sentiments were incestuous was bizarrely off base).

Obviously societal norms can be a powerful force, and much of human behavior is affected by it.  If no one else we knew was circumcised, we would not have chosen that for our boys. 

But the bottom line is that we are caring parents, trying to do what’s best for our kids, as well as we can figure out what that is.  Being demonized for that is not reasonable.

If they cut off your whole dick, it might be the same.  Hey, I’m anti-MGM as anyone, but it ain’t the same.

I completely agree. And I hear that the process is incredibly painful. The babies fight; they have to be strapped to a table and they SCREAM for an hour. What kind crap is that? From personal experience, circumcision makes it harder for a woman to climax. The forskin seems to play a big role in the pleasure women receive.

We chose to not have our son circumcised, but he later developed Phimosis and had to go through the procedure anyway. Just be aware that there are valid medical reasons to have it done; though I would encourage you to wait to see if those medical conditions emerge before doing it. 

BTW, if it does become necessary, keep your son seriously hydrated after the surgery. It reduces the acidic content of the urine and makes it far less painful “to go.”

Another mom of an uncirc’d boy here. He is now 13, totally healthy and has not once ben teased in the locker room. But I also wanna say, when are you ever totally naked in the locker room? Is this something boys do?
even with swimming, we showered in our suits (to rinse the chlorine out of them) and then changed in stalls. Are boys required to get nekkid in front of each other?

There are crusaders for various causes. In this case, they throw around the word mutilation to try and invoke a response similar to how people feel about female genital mutilation. It’s the same reason people shout ‘baby killers’ outside the planned parenthood where I escort, to invoke a response from another situation and apply it to their cause.

My sister opted to have my nephew circumcised because her boyfriend pressured her. He said that all the other boys in the locker room would make fun of him otherwise. My Dad, who is uncircumcised and was born in 1945 was stunned. He wondered why anyone would acknowledge paying that close of attention. He was never hassled about it- and they had swimming class naked back then!

I have an exboyfriend that was uncircumcised. It was not a turnoff. I always found the idea of a non-circumcised penis freaking a woman out to be odd. It wasn’t any kind of a big deal to me- in fact it had a lot going for it- I just can no longer stand the man it’s attached to 😛

As the author of the blog post about circumcision. IT would be great if people didn’t have to be thanked for NOT doing that to their child.
For people that say, hey its none of my business what someone does when it comes to circumcising their kid. Well, if your like me. Bullshit. I wouldn’t let someone chop off their kids little finger, because it not my kid or it is their religious practice.

I am not gonna say “none of my business” if some guy is putting lit cigarettes out on the kids arm, to discipline him.

For people like me–who think circumcision, is a disgrace and barbaric and it takes the decision away from the child, before he is even 3 days old.

I find it disturbing and sick and i think as society we need to change it.

It is not ok in my opinion. IT is a SCAR and it has horrid side effects all throughout life.

My wife took the position, that now after i showed her what i knew, that she would never circumcise any child. Even though before she insisted we do it. But, she draws the line at worrying if someone else does.

That. To me is a cop out and i don’t agree.

Its an archaic, ritual thought up to keep little boys from enjoying the sin of masturbation…well that and I guess the Catholic priests just preferred little boys peckers to peek out a little more, when the priest is going down on them.

Religion has fouled up so many lies, I am starting to believe what Chairman Mao said about it back in the 40s and 50s.

But, what do I know. I ma a bed salesman with a 10th grade public school education.

Wow, that’s really great.  I had my son 8 years ago and circumcision was common at my hospital.  We declined the unnecessary plastic surgery though.  🙂

“Guys don’t look”

Everything I thought I knew is a lie!

Well, everything I thought I knew about guys’ obsession with comparing. Pretty small everything. 😉

I’m Norwegian, so the whole concept of circumcision is somewhat alien to me. I heard about some religious groups practicing it, and even got to see a video from a Jewish circumcision ceremony once. (Nothing graphic: rabbi (I suppose) with a scalpel/knife, the backs of excited relatives crowding around, and a short cry from the baby somewhere in the crowd.) I remember it freaked me out a little that someone would cut a baby in any way. And it blew my mind when I realised that it was so common in the US.

As for women freaking out, this woman has no preference either way, for what it’s worth. I’m not going to have any children of mine cut, but then again, I have no cultural pressure on me nor any other reasons for doing so.

This may sound a strange question, but what else do you call it other than mutilation?

One of the definitions of mutilate is ‘to disfigure, damaging irreparably’.

That sums up circumcision perfectly.

Both of my boys are intact. I didn’t do much research before deciding against circumcision. I didn’t need to. There was nothing about the procedure that seemed normal, natural, or necessary to me. Religious reasons were not a factor, and the medical information seemed neutral at best. Caution and common sense seemed to vote for not permanently altering my newborns’ bodies and subjecting them to surgery right after birth. Now with access to all the information available about circumcision, it’s difficult for me to understand why any parent would choose it for his or her son. And I’m a little surprised to see anyone on an atheist board defend an outdated procedure with religious origins.

The way I see it, I’ve left the choice in the hands (no pun intended) of my sons.

I can’t help but think that all of the men that are upset with the circumcision they received “without their consent” are just insecure with themselves.  I have made it 30 successful years with a circumcised penis and it has never created any emotional or otherwise stress in my life.  

That being said I do not think I would circumcise any sons that I have, only because I see it as a useless procedure.  

What if it was common practice to cut off an infant’s pinky fingers? Would you consider that mutilation or not?

Agreed. That seems like a bizarre argument to me too.

It’s more likely that boys at one point wonder if their dick will be the same size as their father’s, but that too isn’t something that one thinks about all the time

You remind me of this one story about this person who had been blind their entire life. When he was presented with the option to restore his vision with a surgical procedure, he declined stating that he was perfectly content being blind.

I can respect that you are happy with your circumcision, but I simply cannot respect people who force others to have unnecessary circumcisions. Parents have a lot of dictation over their child’s life, but cutting pieces of their body off or piercing them is barbaric and should not be allowed.

You keep mention things about circumcision being a personal choice. Should parents really have the right to do whatever they want to their child?

“I think of it not as mutilation, but as a
personal choice.”

If my parents cut off my pinky fingers and burned a mark onto my arm because that’s what they preferred me to look like, that’s not mutilation, but rather a personal choice?

To be precise, I said I would consider it. But thanks to the Vatican, condoms are not widely available in Africa. And “cut off a body part” is a bit shrill. Do you trim your hair or fingernails? I wish I hadn’t been circumcised, but I hardly consider my life ruined as a result. Also, I don’t know your gender, but any man, if he’s honest, will tell you that sex with a condom is decidedly inferior. Many men simply won’t use them. Even where widely available, condoms come in only three sizes. How many women would be comfortable if bras came in only three sizes?

Doug, the simple issue is this. Circumcision is a ritual born out of Abrahamic faith. It became popular again in the USA courtesy of the anti-masturbation movement who used the bible to justify it. 

It’s not a personal choice, it’s a choice to submit your child to a piece of unnecessary surgery with the only benefit of avoiding phimosis and repeated UTI. Soap would help as would encouraging your child to wash down there properly. 

It’s not just a useless procedure it also carries its own risks. Children have died from it and it is unnecessary. 

It does hurt and hurts a lot. And there are actual reasons for giving out a circumcision. It’s handy for patients who have issues with cleanliness who are prone to UTI such as boys with down’s syndrome because it’s easier for the child to be taught cleanliness. In some cases of adhesive phimosis the entire foreskin needs removal rather than the simple current treatment of a steroid cream to encourage growth of skin and stretching. 

It’s basically a pointless exercise done because people have “always done it” and originally done to reduce male sexual drive. There is no real reason to do it, it’s a pointless exercise in choice and it’s a stupid choice often made by people because it’s the done thing to do and people have been doing it for a long time. Just like sharpening your teeth into points…

We should not encourage it and we should actively discourage it since there is no sane benefit to it.

They do stretch.

As for “many men” who won’t use them…well they can’t get laid as often as those who are willing to can they?

Little boys actually do compare themselves to Dad, Mom, and anyone else they happen to see naked.  There’s nothing creepy about it.  Just normal child curiosity.  My three-year-old likes to discuss relative sizes in an utterly innocent and objective way.  I think he may have remarked on the differences between his uncircumcised penis and my circumcised one.  I explained that he has some skin there that Daddy had removed when I was a baby.  Then we got distracted by a new sheet of stickers.  Conversation over, and definitely not a source of trauma sufficient to justify unnecessary surgery. 

Botched circumcisions are more common than most people realize, because it is a shameful topic it is not openly discussed.  Improper healing bends the penis in unnatural directions,  and can cause painful erections.  The parents of the boy may never discover what they have done. Would you tell your parents?  Some mens lives are ruined by this unnecessary procedure. Even “successful” circumcisions remove sensitive nerves that decrease pleasure.  Why would any any sane person ever do this to a baby? Please, stop circumcision.

As an opponent to circumcision, I would advise not citing Penn & Teller–sadly, Penn’s extreme libertarianism sometimes gets in the way of his show’s alleged opposition to bull.  He’s a great entertainer, but he’s just as prone to bad info as any other pundit.

There are occasionally medical justifications for circumcision.  There are occasionally cosmetic reasons why adults would choose circumcision.  While I certainly agree that cosmetic circumcisions shortly after birth are unjustified that isn’t to say that NO justification exists.

My kid isn’t cut because I didn’t have an opinion one way or the other.  And I figured, if it doesn’t matter to me, why should I alter the default? 

My husband’s mother would have declined, but the doctor didn’t bother to ask her opinion, just walked over and ‘snip snip’. 

They are kids. Kids don’t earn being picked on or bullied (even if they “started it”).  What are you? A twelve-year old?

What they’ve earned is some education and, perhaps, if it continues, some discipline. Not ridicule–certainly not for something that isn’t their fault, and not in a way that screws with their body image.

So do you support the right of parents to mutilate their baby in any way they see fit?

– Do you support the right of parents to clip the ears of their babies?
– Do you support the right of parents to cut off the outer-labia of baby girls?
– Do you support the right of parents to draw artistic scars across their infants backside?

All of these things would cause no medical issue, as long as they were done right and have no therapeutic purpose, just like circumcision. So, do you think they should be legal? Would you defend the right of any parent to “choose it for their baby”?

I don’t think parents who circumcise should be demonized because I don’t think they are really aware that what they are doing is wrong. Many trust doctors who assure them this is completely normal and good for the baby. Social norms make it so for many people circumcision simply isn’t seen as mutilation. I have no doubt that the vast majority of parents who circumcise love their sons dearly and would never knowingly do anything to harm them. Thus, I don’t think they are bad people and they should not be demonized. However, the practice of circumcision itself is deeply immoral and saying so is perfectly OK.

It was not a valid concern of mine, but it was put to me as a reason as a reason to circumcise. I didn’t agree and I don’t think any kid would actually notice the differences, any more than the fact there is hair or size difference.

But you’re right I don’t think guys compare peckers with their boys.

Mine didn’t.

Thank God

I don’t see any ANY other word.

I wouldn’t take serious anyone that tried to call it anything else.

And thats why you need to stay out of other peoples business if you think those two are the same. Reality, try it.

Cutting off a piece of a child’s penis is mutilation. Would you like to suggest another, more fitting word?

And yes, obviously there are more important decisions. But that doesn’t mean that making a life-long irreversible choice for your son, one that he likely would never have decided to have done at the age of 18 (go ask uncircumcised 18 year olds how many of them would willingly go through the procedure now), isn’t something worth discussing.

I’m 57 and uncut.  I “admit” to a small infection when I was 6, but
nothing since.  Teaching proper personal cleanliness should not be a problem.

If he wants it off later, then that’s his decision, but I take the view that it’s part of the delivery spec

As an RN who has witnessed and assisted at circumcisions, let me describe the procedure for those of you who think it is just a “personal choice”.  The newborn’s arms and legs are strapped down to a plastic board in a spread-eagle position.  He is given some sugar water on a pacifier, sterile drapes are placed, his penis is prepped (cleansed with chlorhexidine) and the physician injects lidocaine around the dorsal nerve of the penis (yes  – with a needle).  Then the foreskin is elevated (cut free from the membranous fibers that attach it to the glans – this is why an infant’s foreskin cannot be retracted) with a metal spatula.  Depending on the specific method used, a bell-shaped shield is placed over the glans, the foreskin is pulled up over it, held in placed by a plastic ring or a metal device, and the physician then uses a scalpel to cut away the loosened foreskin.  The ring is left in place (Plasti-bell method) and falls off as the tissue heals.  Bleeding is controlled and the glans is wrapped in medicated gauze.  The procedure takes about fifteen to twenty minutes if the physician is skilled and there are no complications, such as excessive bleeding.  

The procedure is no longer performed at many hospitals and parents have to request it to be done at a pediatric clinic at eight days of age or older.  It is obviously painful.  The infant usually screams and cries even with the sugar water and lidocaine.  There is bleeding.  I can’t imagine that urination is very easy or comfortable until healing occurs – and urinary obstruction due to swelling and trauma is one of the complications that can occur.  I have never seen a parent accompany their infant to watch the procedure – I’m sure that if they did, there would be far fewer circumcisions.   Most of the young parents I’ve seen who requested it did so for the same vague, lame reasons listed above – so the baby could look like daddy and wouldn’t get teased in the locker room later on.  If there are stupider reasons to subject a newborn to a surgical procedure, I’ve never heard them.

Because it is a medically unnecessary procedure, and the infant cannot give consent, I refuse to work in pediatric clinics or hospitals that perform circumcisions.   I agree with others here who have compared it to parents branding, tatooing or piercing babies.   It is a body modification done solely for cultural reasons and should be the choice of the male (adult) whether to have it done.  It should never be forced on infants or young children.

You are entitled to feel gratitude for actions which affected people unknown to you,  but I find these postings rather creepy.  I neither need your approval nor particularly like your interest in the condition of the genitals of children other than your own.  Please refrain from doing that. 

your husband has nothing to compare with.

As I have nothing to compare with.

I still suggest keeping with the original spec until needing to change

This is really interesting to me. When my son was born (1992), my conversation with the doctor went like this:

Him: Do you want him circumcised?
Me: Nope.
Him: Oh, thank goodness. I hate doing that.

About a year ago, I was reading something about circumcision, which led to this conversation with my son:

Son: What is circumcision?
Me: It’s when they cut off a baby’s foreskin.
Son: They WHAT??!! Why?
Me: Some people just have it done. I don’t think it’s a good idea, which is why we didn’t have it done to you.
Son: THANK YOU! Oh, gaaawd.

My sister, OTOH, was present at her grandson’s circumcision (2001). She and my niece were very much pro-make-him-look-the-same-as-everyone-else. She told me afterward that it was awful, and that she would never have that done to a little boy again.

Wow.  I accidentally typed in some totally messed up html. Sorry. It won’t let me edit or delete it.

“I think of it not as mutilation, but as a personal choice. I listed some
piss-poor reasons on Blag Hag for getting my son circumcised,!

so not his personal choice then……

I believe Galen’s first principle was “first do no harm”.  Cutting healthy tissue off is “harm”

eh – I just gave a valid medical reason for Circumcision!   To say there is no justification for it is well….unjustified 🙂     But I’d totally agree with you that there is no reason for widespread or routine circumcision of any man.   I’m not a doctor but from my own experience I’d say there are specific cases where it is the best possible solution to Phimosis.  True there are other options (steroid creams for example) but when a case is not treated in time then its at least a viable solution.   

Anyone who undertakes a circumcision for cosmetic reasons needs counselling, not surgery

 So you don’t defend the practice… but you’re happy to question the ‘security’ of men who had the snip and don’t like it, is that it?

“Well, I was given a forcible tattoo when I was a kid, and I never complained about it, so those complaining about it must be a bit, ahem, insecure with their manhood!”

when you have bits cut off, you can comment, as can  I!

Living in Britain this all seems a very weird discussion. Currently non-therapeutic circumcision rate for babies is about 3.1%.  This means that it is becoming rarer even among Jews. Doctors are required to get formal written consent from both parents, and if there is no medical reason it has to be paid for as a private op.

Curiously, I have not been circumcised, but neither do I have a foreskin; I gather that this happens in about 1 in 10,000 births.

Think about hygiene… I used to run STD and HIV clinics. Most of the ulcerative STD’s I saw were in uncut men. It was my perception that early on, more of the positive HIV tests(in straight men) showed up in the uncut. I have NEVER seen a case of cancer of the penis that was not in an uncut man. The STD transmission data lead to a broad recommendation that men in Africa undergo adult circumcision! That would be traumatic.

When we evolved, we were running around the plains of Africa naked. Would you rather run into tall grass with or without a foreskin? Now we live longer and wear clothes. In years of training and practice, I never saw a cut man in the hospital for penis problems (I am an internist), but I had to do 1 or 2 consults a month on someone on the urology service with an uncut penis with some bad problem.

I have walked the Earth for 57 years circumcised. I don’t remember having it done to me. If I had a son, I’d have him whacked at birth and sleep all the better at night.

Excellent input.  I thank you.  Prepare to be flamed within an inch of your life, though… 🙂

I don’t know what point you’re trying to make, because I clearly get the impression that Lina Baker does regard ear-piercing as mutilation. She even called tattooing “mutilation.”

“Do you remember being concerned about the shape of your dads dick as a child?

For fathers: Did your sons ever seem interested in comparing dicks with you?”

For me and my brother, it was all about size. I remember once asking our Dad why his was bigger. He told us to shut up and finish peeing. Anyway, puberty took care of that issue.

At least in my case.

It is not “medically unnecessary” at all — it makes for good hygiene!

So does soap.  Hey, if cleaning body parts is an issue, let’s talk about removing vulvas.

I’ve come across this line of argument before – and I find it only mildly persuasive.

The gold standard in preventing STD transmission is condom use.

Some really good evidence of strong protection when compared against condom use and controlled against neither condom use nor circumcision would make your argument much stronger in my eyes. Of course such a study would have to be observational for ethical reasons – I am prepared to accept the limits that such methods impose.

In the absence of such a study, my perception is that the protection offered by circumcision is non-zero but minor when compared against consistent condom use. 

The persuasiveness of the argument is therefore proportional to my perceptions of the protection offered by the method; non-zero but minor.

I don’t find this persuasive enough to overcome my prior resistance to circumcision based on the short-term harm to the child.

But that isn’t to say that the argument does not have merit. I could easily be persuaded to agree with you by a body of very strong evidence that the protective effects of circumcision in terms of STD’s are verifiably significant.

Is this guy seriously suggesting that children should be allowed to die in screaming pain from easily treatable illnesses if their owners *ahem* parents choose their faith over their own child’s life?

I guess the neighbor who alerts CPS when she sees the kids next door being abused is also out of line and forcing her views on other people’s lives.  After all, those kids aren’t hers and their parents have chosen brutal physical punishment.

And those people whose kids die from being whipped too much?  There shouldn’t be any charges placed on them.  Their kids, their property, and if their personally chosen methods result in grisly death that’s their decision and you have no power to either save those kids or even suggest they hold off on the belt a bit.   It’s totally out of line to even discuss the subject, in fact.  Their kids, their rules, shut up that’s why, and appeals to a very personalized definition of “reality”.

Haha, you are correct – he does not have anything to compare with.  Lucky for him (and me!) he is not the type of man to obsess about imagined heights of pleasure lost nor does he fulminate about how he has been “mutilated”.  He is a happy, satisfied man who appreciates all that he does have and doesn’t spend his days angry about what he didn’t have.

I agree with you that it seems best not to mess with normal healthy babies’ bodies.  I disagree with you and the other posters about the importance of having anything to compare with.  One doesn’t miss what one has never known,  and it is foolish and unhealthy to obsess over it.  

That should read, “I THINK it is foolish and unhealthy to obsess over it”.  Obviously, that is simply my opinion.
The few men of my acquaintance IRL who have recently expressed outrage over this issue happen to also be the most misogynistic men I know.  I have noticed that men who post angrily on this topic also seem to hold views about women which I find very unpleasant –  at the very least, they all seem to dislike women.
So, I think there is more to this “issue” for some men than simply the question of whether circumcision is a big deal or not.

I don’t recall either my dad or my brother mentioning being mocked in a locker room over their lack of circumcision either.  And we’re a damn open family, very close-knit, so that’s exactly the kind of thing that would have come up, especially since we’ve all done our share of arguing against circumcision and have had this weak apologetic tried on us.

LOL

My sister argued for it for a while, on the grounds that “giving head to men who are circumcised is more pleasurable than giving it to men who aren’t”, with all the arrogance the experienced sometimes get when speaking to a virgin.  I couldn’t believe her.  I said “Are you saying we should take a scalpel to a child’s genitals so they’ll taste better to any women who might want to put it in their mouths one day?  This is a baby, for pity’s sake!”  I didn’t have to be sexually experienced to know that’s a piss-poor reason to cut a kid’s crank.

Eventually she got involved with a guy who could show her first-hand what it looks like when circumcision gets screwed up and it changed her mind big time.  I’m not supposed to know that, so I won’t get into details.  Plus, she hates my brother’s abominable wife, who thinks circumcision is “just what’s done” and being a slave to tradition is a major cheerleader for it.  Hearing her own weak arguments coming out of that snide, arrogant, narcissistic, ugly little mouth was just the mirror she needed to look in to change her view.  🙂

If it’s done, it’s done, and I don’t see any reason to give someone grief over it.  It’s a waste of time.  It’s more productive to promote the idea for people still making the decision, so they don’t make a decision based on “well, it’s just what’s done and I assume it’s good.”  As you said, it was also assumed that religion was good for a kid.  My parents sent me to Catholic school because of such an assumption–Mom went and Dad went, and it’s assumed to be good, so we went too.  Turns out it was not good and in my case I almost committed suicide on several occasions and still struggle with suicidal tendencies to this day.  In retrospect, my parents wish they had chosen differently, but they had little to go on.  They’ve told me “if I’d known then what I know now, if it hadn’t been ‘what’s done’, if it hadn’t been assumed to be ‘better’ for a kid to have religion rammed down their throats every day, I wouldn’t have done it.”

The main thing is to challenge the “circumcision is just what’s done” assumption so that in the future people will not make a decision to circumcise entirely based on “I assume it’s good/it’s just what’s done” but will actually think it through, do some reading, enter some discussion on the subject, and make a real decision.  It often seems that in most cases, there is more thought put into not circumcising than there is in circumcising.  As with warrantless drug testing in all situations, the question is not “is there a reason not to do it?” but “is there a reason to do it?”

Even my brother’s wife is the “it’s just what’s done” variety, and the fact that my brother is extremely against it coupled with the fact that every single argument she tries to make for it implies my brother is unhygenic and dirty doesn’t matter.  Seriously, every argument she made to him he flung back at her “so you’re saying I’m [insert adjective here]?” and she’d glare and pout.  It’s not even that she’s all that passionate about circumcision, she just has always assumed it to be the thing to do.

I don’t see the purpose of screaming at someone who has already done it since it’s not like the decision can be reversed, and for someone who is planning to do it, screaming doesn’t sound very productive.  Seriously, what kind of asshole screams at someone over an irrevocable decision?  You may as well scream at a transgender person post-op–not much they can do about it now even if they wanted, is there?

But I don’t see any reason not to make arguments about the situation or discuss it, and especially to make an effort to include people who “will” and people who “don’t know” (those who “won’t” usually have done a lot more reading and are usually instigating the conversation, just like atheists have done more reading on religion and are usually instigating challenging discussions on faith, because it’s not the default position and they’re used to being challenged all the time–see above, where someone was guilt-tripped by the doc for not circumcising, and my mother was given all sorts of insulting grief over not circumcising my brother when he was born–he just went ahead and scheduled it without even asking and got bent out of shape when she told him, in no uncertain terms, to cancel it immediately).  Most of the people I know who are “shut up, that’s why” while denying people the right to even discuss the issue are pro-circ, and the pro-circ side was the default for so long.  It can feel like arguing against religion–no matter how nice you try to be, it will feel like an attack to those who have had the unquestioned upper-hand for so long.  Perhaps you are not like that, but I’ve had quite a few get absolutely hysterical at any challenge to the very institution of circumcision and the fact that there is any discussion going on about it, as if the very existence of such discussion is a personal affront to their choice to circumcise.

If it somehow comes up in a conversation where someone mentions their kids were circumcised (outside of a discussion about circumcision in particular), I just go “meh”.  Not going to derail the conversation for that.  But if we’re specifically talking about circumcision, I will challenge them.

It’s like giving your baby a nose job. Fuck circumcision. It’s child abuse.

Exactly!  The best argument they’ve got and it’s trumped by condom use.  Besides which, a couple percentage points less risk of something is not really an argument in favor of circumcision, especially since the use of condoms and responsible personal hygiene solves most of the problems they claim circumcision helps with.  Can it replace condom use?  I doubt they’d have the temerity to suggest that.  If there’s a better solution that doesn’t involve cutting off healthy tissue off of children too young to consent, then that should be the default.

Problem is so many pro-circs who have had it done to their kids are invested emotionally now.  No one wants to think they might have endangered their kid for no reason whatsoever, especially when they did that because they trusted someone else’s judgement.  You’re right they shouldn’t be demonized, but even having this discussion will feel to them like being demonized, partially because of that and partially because the pro-circ side has gone unchallenged for so long that it can feel like an attack no matter how nice you try to be.  Kind of like believers and those “You can be good without God” signs.

I tend to use “cut/uncut” instead of “mutilated”, “intact”, or any such charged words, to avoid knee-jerk hysteria, but sometimes it’s inevitable.

See what I mean about investment psychology and being accustomed to never being challenged?  Somehow having a conversation about this on the internet has become tantamount to people intimidating and threatening other people in person outside an abortion clinic.

Show me the scads of anti-circs doing what the anti-choicers do.  No, not just having an open internet discussion that criticizes the decision to circumcise, but actively swarming and attacking people outside a pediatric center where circumcisions are done, screaming “baby mutilator” to people coming in the door.  Then maybe you’ll have a point.  Right now, it’s a public discussion and it’s a subject that needs to be discussed rather than just allow everyone to assume circumcision is great and should always be done and never questioned, which was the default position for a while.

I’m sure you have plenty of opinions about what other people do with their kids when you think it’s wrong or harmful to the kids, and I doubt you’d refrain from expressing it, particularly on a website discussion of the general issue.  Most people do, because children are not property and sometimes parents do harmful things to their kids, either because they are good parents who assume what they are doing is good, or because they are bad parents who don’t care.  In this case, people are challenging your decision–in a non-threatening, verbal, cyber-envorinment–and you don’t like it.

“They can be stupid about some kinds of things, therefore they are useless as a source in general”  I don’t agree.  I watch their shows and do some reading and usually the only things they’re morons about involve free-market capitalism.  In that vein, you’d think if they were letting their libertarianism get in the way of the circumcision, they would be promoting it so the corporations and businesses that are involved can profit, as they did with Walmart.

I’d only cite Penn and Teller if it’s a show that doesn’t directly involve economics and if I’ve done some homework on the subject and know they’re right about what they’re saying (which they often are).  But I don’t see that the fact that they have areas of personal  belief where they are prone to  bad info makes them useless.  If you’ve done some fact-checking yourself, it can be good to show someone their show.  It can be easier to get someone to watch something entertaining rather than read boring and dry studies and arguments online.

That’s my father’s justification for corporal punishment–since his dad used to whale on him for hours (and he turned out all right–in his own opinion) it is therefore good to hit your kids and there can never be any negative effects.  Was he ever horrified when I told him what long-term effect it had on me, which has affected my ability to form relationships because I’m afraid it might lead to abuse.  He must have forcibly forgotten it though, because he is once again regaling me with joyous tales of the abuse he suffered at the hands of his father, as if those were just fun times.  I have to keep telling him that if he wants me to continue to respect my grandfather’s memory (and he does), he’d do well to stop telling me about his abusive behavior.  Maybe he thinks it was harmless and funsy good times auld lang syne, but to those around him the experience is much less pleasurable–in fact, downright creepy and nauseating.

Okay, my bad.  Bed Man OKC said that.  But for the purposes of the argument against cabalavatar the two could be seen as the same–in that the two are both barbaric practices that are often justified by saying “well, my kid won’t fit in if I don’t do it”.  If you had one person’s culture cutting off the tips of the left pinkies vs. people in another culture cutting off the kids whole left hands, all based on “well, my kid won’t fit in if I dont’ do it”, to say the first is relatively harmless but the second is very harmful is a moot point.  Regardless of severity, both cultures are cutting off healthy tissue, and in neither case does “fitting in” come close to a valid reason to continue such barbaric practices.  To get into an argument about which is worse ignores the fact that someone above him just stated that one of them is a-okay because fitting in is more important.

BTW, cabalavatar, doctors don’t always know.  People circumcise because the doctor or doctors suggest it, but those doctors are often coming from a traditional assumption rather than valid medical reasons.  Doctors are human beings too, and just as prone to making decisions based on nothing more than “that’s what’s done, so it must be good”.  That’s why it’s good to do some reading yourself, ask informed questions, and be involved in your own health care rather than just passively sit there and be worked on like a car.  I mean, they wanted my dad to take Vioxx and my mom did some reading into it and found information on those rather nasty side-effects that have caused all those court-cases and settlements.  People at the time thought they were mad–the doctor prescribed it, after all, and who are you to question anything the doctor does?  Turns out she was right.  She was also right about some of the freaky steroids they wanted me to take as a child as well as the ear-tube operation they insisted I needed.  There are a lot of problems I’d don’t have today because she took an active role in my medical care.  BTW, she didn’t just say “I dont’ want that”, she informed herself and often suggested things that he hadn’t thought of, that actually worked beautifully.  Of course, we had a very humble and intelligent Taiwanese doctor who respected such a patient, whereas with American doctors she has to cut forcibly through the domineering arrogance, not to mention the infuriation when she dares to ask a question rather than just passively letting him create his own itinerary for hers and her family’s medical care.

A couple of observations. 

First, I’ve never seen so many comments on a subject on this blog of late, especially since it’s not per se a religionist/atheist issue. 

Most, but certainly not all,  of the commenters who view it as mutilation seem to be women or uncircumcised men, yet 75% of American men are circumcised.  I’m going to assume (yes, I know what happens when we ass-u-me) that most readers and posters on this blog are in the U.S.

My  perspective:  I am a gay American-born male  (circumcised at birth) who’s “been around the block” a few times, and been with both cut and uncut men in the sack.  Circumcision doesn’t seem to make much difference when it comes to sexual pleasure.  If it did, I would think uncut guys would enjoy sex a lot more than cut guys.  My experiences indicate that both sets of guys seem to enjoy sex a lot (they are guys, after all!), and once they get down to business, it’s really hard to tell the difference (no pun intended).

As for the appearance argument, yes, guys do look in locker rooms, etc., but it’s not something any healthy male is going to obsess over.  The Jr. and Sr. high school I went to had several European immigrants who were not circumcised.  When I was in 7th or 8th grade, I asked my dad about it and he explained it – a 3-minute conversation.

Or you could teach him hygiene.  My brother’s wife said “it’s for hygiene, it’s jut cleaner” and he asked her straight away “so you’re saying I’m dirty?  Why are you even with me if I’m ‘not clean’?”  My mom made sure to teach my brother to clean it and since us girls were much older she had us help her give him a bath, so we also learned how to clean it in case we ever have kids.  You teach your child to brush his teeth and wash his face and tie his shoes, why can’t you teach him how to clean himself properly?  Why slice off healthy flesh from your baby when you can achieve the same effect by being a good parent and encouraging a conscientious hygiene regimen?  As someone stated above, it literally takes only a few more seconds to clean an uncut penis.

Gah, they did this to my mom in 1985!  That is, he’s going over the schedule and paperwork and right in the middle of it there was “and then there’s the circumcision, we’ll do that tomorrow”.  She told him not to, he started giving her crap over it and seemed like he was going to do it anyway, and she very deliberately told him that if her child is circumcised she will be suing the living shit out of the hospital.  That made him back off real fast, and to this day my brother is uncut.  And has never had a problem either with hygiene or with girls or with the other boys.

To be completely accurate, it is possible to get a foreskin back via plastic surgery.  I have no idea what it costs or how effective it is.

And will the nerve endings be there that would have been there without circumcision? 

Or maybe not: 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreskin#Functions

I have seen anecdotes from men who were cut as adults, and they’ve reported decreased sensitivity of the glans and a loss of sensation. I’ve also seen anecdotes from those who’ve undergone restoration, and they’ve reported sexual benefits.  Admittedly, those were on sites where I would expect such anecdotes.

Why are people talking about circumcision? There are more important things to worry about.

Why are is everybody talking about marriage equality (a.k.a. gay marriage)? There are more important things to worry about.

Why are people talking about carbon emissions? There are more important things to worry about.

Why are women talking about pay equality in the workforce? There are more important things to worry about.

Why are black people talking about voting rights? There are more important things to worry about.

—–

You know, people are allowed to be concerned with more than one thing at a time. Just because there are worse things out there doesn’t mean we should ignore everything else.

Let the anti-circumcision crowd have their say for one day and then you can forget about it if you want.

No quota. Just an interesting topic!

On Wednesday, September 21, 2011, Disqus <

When I was young, about 12 or 13, a friend of mine had a condition (I
don’t remember which, it was nearly 20 years ago) that meant he had to
be circumcised.

It may have been phimosis, a relatively common condition where the foreskin cannot retract automatically when the penis is erect. There are nonsurgical treatments but circumcision is also a typical way of treating it. One excuse I’ve heard for circumcision is that you prevent phimosis and the painful surgery on a teenager that ensues (somehow the suffering of a newborn doesn’t matter?). Oddly enough, none of the people saying that think that all babies should get their appendix out at birth, even though appendicitis is a much more serious condition than phimosis.

 How long would circumsision last as a cultural relic if it was something that children forced on their parents?

Damnit. What happened to all of my paragraphs?

I’m uncut and my dad used to tell me a story that he had to chase down a nurse and stop them from circumcising me even though they had explicitly stated they didn’t want me to be cut. Apparently at the time it was so common that the doctors didn’t even look at the paperwork and began prepping for the procedure. Thanks for defending me when I couldn’t do it myself, dad!

Growing up in a suburb of Chicago in the 90’s, yes boys get completely naked in the locker room in high school gym class and after sports practices. We were required to shower completely naked and were harassed by our teachers if we tried to sneak out without doing it. We didn’t like it at first and were totally pissed that the girls did  not have a similar requirement. Looking back on that experience now, I think it was a good one. I have no issues with being naked around other people (locker room at the gym). It also developed good hygiene habits at an age when odors became more prevalent.  

Disqus does that to me every now and again too.

Usually if I go back in and edit in all my old line-breaks and then save the edit, things get fixed.

The edit does go away after a while.  You have to be quick about it (or maybe it’s the guest thing also)

The HIV issue – has to to with the mucus membrane under the foreskin. But it is not a  particularly important vector in transmission it seems. You can probably find a study online quite easily for and against this. 

Speaking as an uncut male – what the hell is this fuss about? I have a dick, it works, it has a nice matching turtleneck for cold weather. 

 “women are freaked out by uncircumcised men” – Really not a problem.  By the time he is sexually active, he’ll be old enough to choose whether or not he wants to have cosmetic surgery to conform to some perceived social norm.  No one considers getting their infant girl breast implants so that guys will like her when she gets older.

“Would my son be sad, that his ‘didn’t look like Daddies.'” – If you simply don’t make a habit of showing your son your penis, this shouldn’t be a problem either.
 

I would NEVER sign off on circumcision for a newborn.
As an anti-religionist I would NEVER sign off on circumcision for religious reasons.
The only reason i would agree to circumcise would be medical – too tight, the skin attached to the crown of the penis  (I forget the name of the condition, but Louis XVI had it) and other such conditions.
Please do NOT butcher your son without medical cause.

I think circumcision is something that a person should decide for himself.  I definitely think that it is a personal preference – and a person should be allowed to make an informed decision.

I swear to the magic man in the sky APvegmama that I will hunt you down and circumcise you myself if you keep posting this >:(

Oh yeah, circumcision reduces the chance of getting and of spreading HIV. And I know guys could easily get  around that by using condoms but the fact is, they don’t. I don’t live in what people should do, I live in the world of what they do. Most men don’t use condoms consistently. Being circumcised saves lives.