Seven-Year-Old May Not Get to Join Brownies Group because of God Oath

She shouldn’t have to but since the wording can be changed she could substitute “the world” or “the universe” for “my God”. It implies an awe for things without a higher power. It’s a private organization so they can do what they want, at least they allow for other options which gives her and her family some options other than quitting or lying.

She could rephrase as such: ‘I promise that I will do my best, to love myself, to serve
the Queen and my country, to help other people and to keep the Brownie
Guide law.’  No higher powers in that, just love for oneself.  Most girls could use a bit more of that. 

I feel for this family.  When my daughter was in Girl Scouts, there came a time when she was expected to get a pin for her sash that represented her religion.  Since we don’t have one, I asked her troop leader if she could just skip this step.  She suggested that I “just choose anything, then”.  I felt after her leader found out that we did not practice anything organized, my child was ostracized from a group she enjoyed being around.  Girl Scouts is a private organization, however, so I couldn’t raise too many issues.  The mission statement is based upon an expectation of religious belief.  I wish it could update its mission to include all children, no matter what their religious upbringing is.  You don’t have to be a believer to have a heart.  These organizations are good for girls.  They promote self-reliance, confidence, a sense of adventure and camaraderie and service to community.  They should be able to include all girls.   

In America, the Girl Scout promise says, “On my honor, I will try: To serve God and my country,  to help people at all times and to live by the Girl Scout Law.”

My eldest daughter will be joining Daisies this school year and as a freethinking child, I know she will find that silly. I am pretty sure the Girl Scouts here in America won’t bar your child for not saying the pledge, and it surprises me that in the UK it’s even an issue.

 When I signed my daughter up, they didn’t ask us for religion preference, or if my daughter was straight… I think she is still rather young to be making those decisions. Why can’t we just let children be children?

I was a US girl scout from kindergarten through to my Gold Award in 12th grade, and the US girl scout promise generally goes like this – “On my honor I will try to serve God and my country, to help people at all times, and to live by the Girl Scout Law”; however I have always read online that it is perfectly permissible to substitute “serve my community” for “serve God”.

I loved being a part of Sparks, Brownies and Girl Guides when I was a kid. Here in Canada the Brownie Promise is:

I promise to do my best,
To be true to myself, my beliefs and Canada,
I will take action for a better world,
And respect the Brownie Law.

Brownie Law: As a Brownie I am honest and kind. I help take care of the world around me.

These are sentiments I can stand behind.

If anyone’s wondering why there’s no mention of a lawsuit, I don’t
believe there’s any basis for one. As far as I can tell, Girlguiding UK
is a private organization and it’s allowed to discriminate as it
pleases. (Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong.)

IANAL, but I think you are indeed wrong. There’s no question of church/state separation here (we don’t have that), so the private status of the organisation is immaterial. The Equality Act is pretty clear about banning discrimination on the grounds of religion and it doesn’t just apply to the state.

There’s a nice readable summary of the application of the Equality Act to private organisations on the Home Office website here:
 http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/equalities/equality-act-publications/equality-act-guidance/private-clubs
Notably, it specifically mentions Girl Guiding UK as an example of an association that is covered by the act, and  is explicit that the provisions on religion and belief extend to lack of belief.

In short, the Brownies haven’t a leg to stand on. Chances are this is the local leader going off piste.

I’d be in the same boat if I came out in the US boy scouts, although from what I read they’re much more harsh.

Really? Because the last Worldwide Scouting Jamboree was held in the UK, and the BBC coverage explicitly stated that belief in god was a prerequisite for membership. I, personally, flighted with Scouting membership as a boy and ran afoul of this rule not once but twice, even going so far as to be kept back one night to be lectured by the pack master on the fact that as the oath contains a reference to god, if I don’t believe, I can’t be a member. I just Googled my old pack, and it says that they have Church Parade on Sundays.

Personally, I think if they want to make that condition, they can, but they can’t use any public facilities or receive a penny in public money whilst they do. Once all their free meeting venues (school halls, etc.), and sports facilities are taken away, you can just bet they’ll re-evaluate.

and another name can be substituted for God to make the promise more meaningful to each girl or woman.“‘I promise that I will do my best, to love my bowel movements, to serve
the Queen and my country, to help other people and to keep the Brownie
Guide law.“

Isn’t “Jedi” now a recognized religion in the UK?

I was just reading this, as I’m looking up all the different pledges.  For the US pledge it does say, “Girl Scouts are given a choice of ‘whatever word your spiritual beliefs dictate’ in place of the word God.”  But doesn’t this imply that everyone HAS spiritual beliefs?  I remember a while back reading an article of a troup that was made of girls who were Muslim, so they switched “god” to “allah”.  So there is openness to diversity, but I wonder what would happen here if there was a situation similar to Maddie’s?

Get her a hamster, name it God. 

The Boy/Girl Scouts are an explicitly religious organization. This should not come as a surprise to anyone.

I’d say this is more a local group issue, than a Girl Guide issue.  Almost 20 years ago, I was allowed to change my pledge to : I promise that I will try to do my best, to love and serve my country, to help other people and to keep the Girl Guide Law.
No God or service to the Queen required.  It’s the volunteer leaders who really control how each group is run, there’s no set curriculum or anything.  My group went from concentrating on learning first aid and camping skills with our first leader to cooking and sewing skills with our second (which is when I left 🙂 )

I don’t think religion is much of an issue in Guiding and Scouting in the UK. I would tend to believe, until we get a proper statement from that Brownie group, that this might have been an honest mistake on the part of the Leaders. Leadership of Brownie groups are voluntary and a lot of the Leaders are just average parents who don’t know much about all the precise ins and outs of Girl Guiding rules. More than likely this situation has just never come up before and the Leaders were under the impression they couldn’t change the wording of the pledge.

I was in Girl Guides from I was about 5 until 15 and then returned afterwards as a leader in Rainbows; during this time I became an open atheist and didn’t hide it. Similarly I have a friend who is a Scout leader, just back from the World Jamboree, who is also an open atheist and has been his entire life. Religion was never really talked about, even around Christmas it wasn’t anything more than you’d get taught at schools. It just wasn’t seen as appropriate to be discussing religion in this setting; Guiding isn’t a Church youth group and mostly you’re too busy trying to get the kids to follow the schedule for that evening than trying to teach them anything about God.

Mostly any adherence to religious wording or ceremonies (such as on Thinking Day), is as another commentor has said, purely traditional and if you don’t want to attend no one will force you, nor is a big deal made of it and if anyone was to try and discriminate against you because of it they’d be the ones asked to leave.

I can hear the scratchy fiddle music now!

You didn’t even wrap yarn around Popsicle sticks and call it a “God’s Eye?”

Afraid not, i think all the people who put jedi in the last 2 census’s got rejected or there religion just wasn’t counted.

As a Brit, this has the same feeling to me as “pledge allegiance to the flag” might to an American.  Both are really just saying that you will stick to your country.  Neither is really relevant these days, I think, but it certainly isn’t a personal pledge to the Queen.

In Ireland they were (when I was a kid) explicitly religious being called the Catholic Boy Scouts of Ireland – luckily not any more!

But when the name is just Boy Scouts or Girl Scouts how are you supposed to realise it is all about Jesus? You might expect it’d be all good secular fun like camping and canoeing.

I picked up a Boys’ Brigade manual left in a community hall a while ago and I was *stunned* by how heavy handed it was in its preaching!

You should maybe have suggested a Question Mark pin.

Nothing changes then, 44 years ago when I was nine years old I was politely asked to leave the cub scouts in Croydon, England for refusing to take part in end of meeting prayers.

“Girlguiding UK (their version of the Girl Scouts)”

Nice touch, but I thought the American Scouting Organisation also recognised Baden-Powell (An Englishman) as their founder? Must be wrong.

As an atheist since I was old enough to resent going to Sunday school, I nevertheless was a guide (and a white owl) for some years. We had church parade first Sunday of every month, and pledged our allegiance to God, Queen and Country.

Since there is no god, any allegiance sworn was of course as valid as my allegiance to the easter bunny. However, nobody seem to care. We used to mutter gods (if any), Queen and Country. 
OK, as an adult, it sounds stupid – but really, I did not know anyone in our troupe that actually believed in a god, and 1/2 of the girls were not even talking about the same country I was.

Sorry a “RED A” Pin of course.

Whenever they say “you can replace this word with another word,” they’re showing how irrelevant that first word really is. So why is it in the oath?

See? We ARE in a civil rights movement. This one is small. Others are much more impressive cases.

I would suggest the following as a good substitue pledge:
I promise that I will do my best, to love reason, to serve the Queen and my country, to help other people and to keep the Brownie Guide law.

Religion and spirituality are important parts of the scouting, so why would an atheist even join? As an atheist I would not even consider to allow my children to take part in such activities. I wouldn´t allow them to go in Sunday school either.

The scouts of Sweden have changed their scout promise to just this:

“I promise by the best of my abilities to follow the scout law”.

We have also recently changed the part of the scout law which mentioned God. It has this agnostic wording now:

“A scout seeks his own belief and respects others’.”

I think this is a huge step forward for the scout movement, and I hope that other countries will follow. This may pose some problems, however, since the World Organization of the Scout Movement (WOSM) requires all member organizations to mention the “Duty to God” in their scout laws and promises (see for example: http://scout.org/en/about_scouting/promise_and_law ).

The 22nd World Scout Jamboree was recently held here in Sweden, which is interesting considering the agnostic stand we take regards religion. We do have a a few large Christian scout organizations but we do have atheistic ones as well.

I do not think that belief in a god is very important for the scout movement. We can create a better world without religion.

Actually, the Girl Scouts have never been a religious organization. I can’t speak for the Boy Scouts as I have had very little interaction with any members. If you want some enlightening information about GS, you should try their Wikipedia page.

From Wikipedia: “In 1911 Juliette met Second Boer War hero (and founder of the Scouting movement) Robert Baden-Powell. The B-P recruited her to the Girl Guiding movement. He had gotten his sister Agnes
to organize the Girl Guides by recruiting the thousands of girls who
had sprung up in scout troops across England. Daisy and Sir Robert
(later Lord) Baden Powell shared a passion for sculpture, poetry and
art. She also enjoyed working with iron. She had hired the Wellesbourne
village blacksmith to teach her iron and copper smithing so she could
create iron gates for her home, Wellesbourne House.

While in the UK, Daisy organized a troop in Scotland and two in
London before she decided that she would start the movement on her next
visit home to Savannah.”
 

I too was a Sparks and Brownie in Canada. I totally agree that the oath here in the UK can be changed to something very similar to the Canadian one, this would allow everyone to join whether atheist or Muslim or Christian. 

Nothing new there, I was refused entry to the Girl Guides over 40 years ago because I would not make a religious promise. If you push the Girl Guides Association they will eventually admit that they bar atheists and that one must have some kind of spiritual belief to join.

The biggest issue facing Scouting here in the USA is the inexorable Mormon take0ver of the movement.  Irecall hearing that as many as 40% of Boy Scout troops in the US are LDS troops now; their main purpose is to indoctrinate boys into the LDS church.

The concern for Girl Scouts is the fact that the Mormons do not allow scouting for girls within their ranks.  I fear the day when the LDS gains control of Scouting as a whole and tries to do away with the GSA.

My own experiences in Pennsylvania offer an example of what I hope is still the norm in many parts of the country.  My whole family was active in Scouting for many years.  I was a Cub Scout at 7, my mother was my Den Mother.  My father became an Assistant Scoutmaster once I officially became a Boy Scout at age 11.  I was active in the troop until after my first semester of college.  My mother was the leader of my sisters’ Girl Scout troop, and they were active through high school as well.

In all that time, I never once got the impression that either organization was particularly religious in nature.  Sure, some kids got their “God and Country” merit badge or church service awards, but we were never pressured to do so.  Religion just wasn’t an issue for us as a troop, or a council for that matter. The only time I was really exposed to religious activity was on the last Sunday of summer camp, when the entire camp hiked to the top of Chapel Hill for a brief service.  Even thought the service itself meant nothing to me, the view was very pleasant, and the atmosphere was actually almost pagan in nature.

Granted, that was in the 80s, so things may have changed in that area… but I sure hope not.

I have very little experience directly with any of these organizations, but have learned from parenting blogs that at least with Scouts, each troupe has a great deal of latitude, so, “YMMV”.

It will be unfortunate if our local troupe gets pushy about the God bit.  They make cool soda bottle rocket launchers and trebuchets.

As an American, I don’t “pledge allegiance to the flag”. I stopped saying the pledge (or even standing for it) when I was fifteen.

A Scout is (ir)reveren? It is as though you would want atheists to be priests or Catholics to be rabbis and so on. The only (Ir) here is irrational.

I think that any mention of a religious entity in an oath should be voluntary not mandatory.

The Girl Guides’ web site has a discussion on this issue by various guides and guiders.   A lot of back and forth but it seems that there is a bit more leeway than the local group appears to have given and that some of the guides/guiders feel there should be more leeway from the national organization (quite a few on the board admit they are non-theistic and accept that a large percentage of older guides/guiders are atheists or agnostics).  Also there is no requirement that a girl make the promise to remain in Brownies or to advance to Guides except at some of the highest levels.  It was also pointed out that the Canadian Guides recently changed their promise to

I promise to do my best,
To be true to myself, my beliefs and Canada.
I will take action for a better world
And respect the Guiding Law

(the Guiding law make no mention of God [or ‘reverent’ which has never been part of Girl Scout/Guide law though is in the Boy Scouts of America law])

Err, no. Look it up

Why don’t you go troll somewhere else?

 No account on the board (I’m in the US and though I was a Girl Scout for 11 years, I’m not currently a Scouter), I just find it interesting reading.  Doing a google search on the board for other entries didn’t turn up anything in regards to the act (I assume you mean the 2010 one).   The official site has
http://guidingmanual.guk.org.uk/default.aspx?page=19
but doesn’t address the promise.

Going by what is on the board, the parents may not have standing yet as she is not required to say the promise to be a Brownie (when she wants to get the BP Award at about age 13, it would be a different matter or if either of her parents wanted to be official leaders [leaders have to make a promise]).  They also feel the local group may not have been aware that the promise can be modified to a degree (though not to a degree that all atheists would be happy with) and/or is not mandatory.  It is telling that one quote from a 20 year leader is

GGUK would certainly have a problem if all the atheist members refused
to make the promise – especially as I expect the majority are adults and
senior section (who have had the chance to develop their own views on
the subject). Perhaps all the atheist Guiders should re-enact the
Crystal Palace rally and storm CHQ demanding “something for the
atheists”!

(the last statement is a reference to how girls officially got into scouting in the first place [it was originally all boys], some showed up anyway at a UK wide rally at the Crystal Palace and told Baden-Powell, the founder, that they were girl Scouts  [he didn’t want to mingle the sexes so set up Guiding for them instead though his good friend Juliette Low eventually called her program in the US, Girl Scouts {much to the annoyance of the Boy Scouts of America who tried to force them to change the name}])

Plenty on the board seem willing to go Canada’s route; plenty admit to being atheistic (though some don’t see why atheists would want to join or should join).   Given the equality act and given internal group pressure, I suspect change may be coming [probably before Maddie reaches 13].   Note that in Britain one can be a Guide (Senior Section) through age 25 (in the US it is through 18) which can mean a lot of vocal young women. 

The article also has the terminology wrong, it is a promise not a pledge (Hemant added ‘oath’ which is not the correct name except in the Boy Scouts of America and groups in other nations derived from them) and Brownies don’t belong to a ‘troop’ but to a ‘pack’.    One wonders what else was gotten wrong (for instance the parent’s complaint might have been somewhat different than what was reported).

Tell you what, why don’t we give scouts / guides the choice to not pledge allegiance to the Queen on the same day scouts in the USA get the choice that they can? Fair’s fair!

This is something that I have a massive problem with. I am supposed to be training to be a Brownie Leader but will never be able to qualify because of this issue. I can fudge the lines during meetings as nobody is listening to me but out on my own…… I also know that a great number of the girls take issue with it and several leave because of it. I like the Canadian promise and wish that in the UK they would change it similarly.

I was a child member of Girl Guides and a group leader as an adult. We had a number of atheist kids in our group, as well as the leader (me). There simply isn’t much religious discussion between 9-12 year old girls, and the only time it would come up is when some girls would choose to pray before meals or bedtime at camp. The promise (as others have already posted it) is very inclusive. There is a closing song Guide’s Taps that mentions god, but we decided as a group to edit our song for a god-free version. Some girls wanted to say god, and they had that right. There were really no problems!

It’s also worth noting that while Girl Guides and Boy Scouts have similar origin stories, the girls’ organization is completely inclusive… unless you’re male. 😉

And yes, some specific groups may be more religious, but they are not allowed to kick anyone out for things like belief or sexual orientation.

As for the little girl in the main story, I think that her parents have it under control. She’s allowed to make a different promise if she wants to. And a promise a kid makes isn’t really a big deal. Do you think the police are going to knock down her door if she doesn’t do her best?! I’d say just change the words to whatever she wants, and if the troop leader won’t allow it, then she doesn’t deserve to have an hour a week with the kid anyway.

Just to keep you up to date, having to be be C of E to hold high office, PM included, was abolished in the 1820s by the Duke of Wellington, PM at the time.

Hi wmdkitty. Why don’t you answer the question? If atheists formed organizations, who on earth would want to join? Not even their own children, as I can testify from personal experience. May I suggest a more realistic advertising slogan to replace the deceptive ‘You can be good without God:’ ‘Atheism! A great way for young people to meet some really creepy adults!’

There are plenty of atheists in Guides so it is not some other people’s organization.   These atheists believe they can and should work so that they are a sister to every other guide even though those other guides are Jewish, Muslim, Hindu[1], Buddhist[2] nay even Christian.   Organizations change over time, at one time many US scouting groups were strictly segregated (or troops for minorities didn’t officially exist in many areas).   At one time many Buddhists had problems with the promise as it was then required in the UK.

I must admit I don’t understand why you are trying to be so annoying.  Do you not approve of an atheist being on Patheos? 

[1]  The second largest Guide organization is in India and the majority of
those are probably Hindu, and the ambassador [which seems to be a term
the Guides use for prominent local willing to be a patron and adviser]
for the county Guiding group to which this pack belongs  is Hindu. 

[2] Buddhists also often have problems with the promise and the primarily Buddhist scouting/guiding organizations have never used ‘God’ but instead a word translated as ‘religion’ in their promises (I’m not exactly sure what the connotation in the original language is since ‘religion’ in English is a notoriously fuzzy word).  The UK Guides/Scouts both allow ‘Dharma’ to be substituted.

To love “what’s good” or even “the greater good” should work fine.

I’ll answer it. I sure as hell would have signed my kids up for it if there had been a non-theistic alternative.

May I suggest you Google scouting and sexual abuse? And I’m sure you don’t even need to Google Christianity and sexual abuse by priests, pastors, ministers, etc.  — physical abuse, as well, for that matter. You probably even have, or know someone who has had “personal experience” with it, as so very many people do.

Troll failure. Get used to it, Frederika.

This is a
another way on how to prepare your browni , another way to present
your browni to your Family and friends, and how yummy it is,
especially the peppermint.

Hi Erp, the people who are the victims here are the children they are trying to raise as atheists. There is a little voice here not being spoken for; these parents are probably very well aware of it, but don’t care to listen.

I’ve had a similar problem here in the U.S.  I’m an atheist but i’m only “out” to some people, not including my Girl Scout leader.  I’ve been very active in Girl Scouts my whole life (im in high school now) and I would hate to have something like this force me to leave after all the other important things that I have learned in scouting.  In the U.S., the promise is “On my honor, I will try, to serve god, and my country, to help people at all times and to live by the Girl Scout Law”.  Normally I just stay silent during the “to serve god” part. I feel comfortable doing that but my problem is with my Daisy troop.  When i’m teaching the promise, I don’t feel comfortable saying that part and forcing the girls to say it, but i also don’t feel like it is my place to be talking to the girls about religion. does anyone have any suggestions? I was also wondering if you had any suggestions for me about talking to my leader. she often makes us sing grace and i dont feel comfortable doing that. i was thinking of suggesting some non-denominational graces.  should I just keep my mouth shut on that issue and just not sing or should i talk to her? thanks!