Getting Away from a Chilly Climate

How do you separate the effects of being female from the effects of having a (locally) stigmatized degree?

The story about the woman at CERN seems to be more about her lack of education than her gender. Anyone who’s gone to graduate school or done scientific research knows that undergraduate degrees are nearly worthless in the context of specialized science. Unless there is a specific example of her opinion being disregarded in a discussion about science communication, then I would give the physicists at CERN the benefit of the doubt.

To the above I would add a couple of things that make conversation on the subject maddening:
1. Taking commentary about existing sexism as a personal accusation that YOU are sexist. Angrily defending yourself from a personal accusation of sexism that was not made while refusing to engage the larger issue of community-wide problems.

2. Dissecting a single incident to death, while steadfastly refusing to engage the larger issue. Elevatorgate is a great example of this. Initially, it was cited as a mere example of attitudes that should not be had in the context of the larger issue of sexism within the community. Some people seem only interested in forcing the other side to admit that they could not 100% guarantee that X incident is sexist. Having either won (or simply worn the other side down) they leave, satisfied, and not actually having discussed any underlying issue.

3. Related to 2, refusing to acknowledge that an accumulation of a bunch of small things can add up to a big thing. This is usually manifested in the straw-manning of a complaint.  “You think someone flirting with you or just commenting that a woman is pretty is sexism!” Of course this is absurd. What does happen is that for many women, going to a conference and having a large portion of the guys who approach you do it clearly for the purpose of getting in your pants, and not for hearing your ideas, oddly enough can make you feel like it’s only your body, not your mind, that’s valued. When enough women report having this sort of thing happen, you have an community problem, one that won’t go away by pretending that a single comment or proposition was the origin of the whole blow-up.

There are probably a lot more but those are the ones that drive me personally most insane. Since this is a comments thread about sexism and as a manifestation of how not-a-problem it is in the community those tend to go so well I’ll add the sadly needed caveats that NO I’m not talking about all men and that I’m fairly certain most of the above is done unintentionally in many cases.

The examples of sexism are in the many irrational responses that flooded discussions of the elevator incident. No, nothing in the elevator was glaringly terrible, but news of the event was a trigger for all kinds of overreactive sexists just waiting for a chance to spew.

Just watch the comments here: Someone will overstep their position, and then there will be backlash, and the accusations will again fly both ways.
(you open yourself to this with the “I like it when people compliment me” talk. It is easy to slip to blaming the victim etc from there, and hypersensitive folk will assume you are.)

maybe, but if a woman were the emcee and commented about my appearance, I wouldn’t see a problem with it. Or if a gay guy were the emcee, and complimented my appearance.

Of course, the emphasis should be on the content, but that doesn’t mean the introduction can’t be personalized and made a little less formal.

It really depends on the context. The more professional it gets, the less acceptable it becomes.

I have often times been puzzled at bio’s of male/female personalities at conferences. [Not atheist/CFI/Skeptic/et al]

Often times the female bespeak of family and social ties whereas males reiterate their educational and work accomplishments.

Knowing that the majority of speakers write their own bios, may I suggest that
each of us call up our own dilemmas?

We need to encourage more people to move into science.  That doesn’t just mean experimentation but all the other areas that work with scientists.  That is men and women in almost equal number.  When men and women make up half the workforce each in an industry at all levels then the novelty value will cease.

 Did you read the linked article? I’m failing to see how “a hand on the knee, lame attempts at playing “footsie” with her under
the table during meetings, and of course, tacky double entendres” might have anythign to do with her “lack of education” – unless you think this type of treatment is ok for the ignorant.

so she was groped now too? thats different. thats sexual assault (in the strongest terms) and illeagle so i dont see how it matches.

3 guys are telling a lame sex joke to each other in the break area. they find these jokes funny a woman walks in half way through, are they being sexist for not including her?

“Like this story about Linda Henneberg, a science communication intern at CERN”
As someone who has worked in numerous corporate environments, I can count on one hand the number of times ANYONE took an intern seriously, regardless of their sex. Of course, this could just have been the firms I worked in, but this is a possible scenario that needs to be taken into consideration. Accusing others of some form of discrimination is often the default setting for those who just don’t know any better, lack imagination, have an ulterior motive or are somehow deficient in their work related skills or knowledge.
 Yes, sexism exists. My current wife and my ex have both suffered from it to one degree or another in their respective careers. It has cost our family many tens of thousands of dollars in unpaid wages alone, not to mention the emotional distress that accompanies being treated as a second class citizen. I get it. I also know that actively promoting everyone that claims sexism or racism detracts from those who have legitimate claims. Accusations of discrimination are serious and need to be treated seriously. Every allegedly oppressed individual does not have a right to my attention merely because they think they might have a claim. Instead of reading about someone being a big meanie, I’d rather be reading about what the alleged victim was doing from a legal standpoint to remedy the situation. If there is no legal remedy for what was allegedly  happening at work, then I guess what was occuring is not considered as sexism or harasssment by the law,  the complainants case is too weak OR the alleged victim decided that it wasn’t really bad enough to pursue in the first place. If any of these are the case, then what are they blogging about it for? Rhetorical question, although I’m sure at least one person in this thread will respond.
If we are going to be promoting anecdotal accounts of alleged discrimination, it would be nice to hear the other person or persons side of the story as well, whether from formal court proceedings or media interviews.
 As a demographic that supposedly prides ourselves on demanding evidence,a great  many of us seem to abandon all requirements for evidence in situations like this.
Food for thought.

Guilty as charged on Point 1. Public apology for being an overly sensitive and defensive turd some weeks back.

I hope I can get the idea of male privilege across to you somehow, because your post exemplifies it very well. I don’t mean it in a disparaging way, because lots of men do it unknowingly and without any ill will and without having a misogynistic attitude.

Privilege partly means ignoring systemic discrimination because it doesn’t happen to you, but also partly thinking that your experience of the world is the correct one and others ought to conform to it. For example, if a black man is suspected of being a car jacker and a white man thinks “Well if I was being suspected of stealing a car, I’m sure the police would have a good reason for thinking so!” – that’s privilege. If an atheist sets up a billboard that says “Atheists, you’re not alone!” and a Christian complains “How dare these militant atheists push their beliefs down our necks! Just keep your beliefs to yourself!” – that’s privilege.

“I like it when people compliment me” – I’m sure you do, because I do as well. However, how would you like it if you were trying to advance a career in theoretical physics, you study your ass off, you write insightful papers and the prize you get is “Nice ass, dude!”? Moreover, you cannot walk a hundred yards without someone turning their head at your posterior, and you get whistles and uncomfortable smiles all too often…  This is the problem. You may think you’re just expressing your honest opinion about a woman’s appearance, but so does every other man who does that, and the aggregate experience for the woman is to think men only appreciate her for her looks. Men and women ARE different, which is exactly why you can’t draw conclusions from how YOU would react to a certain situation. (Btw, if that doesn’t convince you to be a little more discreet, consider this: compliments about her looks are actually the worst way to pick up women. Ask any pick-up artist and he’ll confirm this!)

And yes, asking women to have sex with them can actually be sexist if it’s done incorrectly. You may think it’s just an honest expression of carnal desire, but for her it can (at worst) be an expression of “Look, I didn’t really give a shit about your talk this evening about how men should acknowledge women in the skeptical community – to me you’re still just tits and a pussy on two legs, so how about it? The man probably didn’t think of it that way, but that’s how it can come across if you don’t pay attention. Men and women do think about things differently, partly because of biology and partly because of conditioning, and for men to think our interpretation of a certain situation is the correct one is not only naive, but also rude.

The main point to consider isn’t “Do I have sexist intentions?” but “How will she interpret what I’m saying?”. This can be difficult at times, which is why it’s so important to actually listen to women when they have concerns about men’s behavior. Thinking “Well I didn’t think it was sexist, so it isn’t!” only solidifies one’s status as a sexist.

“I am biologically forced to be attracted to women.”

Got something against LGBTQs you’d like to come out about?

“A  workplace is a bad place for groping people, propositioning them, and lame sex jokes.”
No argument on that. 

He didn’t say “As a man, I am biologically forced to be attracted to women.” Chill out.

“Look, I didn’t really give a shit about your talk this evening about
how men should acknowledge women in the skeptical community – to me
you’re still just tits and a pussy on two legs, so how about it?”

I think this sort of point is one of the things that really winds people up and sends these discussion spinning off into flaming death. There is no ‘just’ here. At all. For one thing it’s entirely possible to be interested in someone sexually AND intellectually, and secondly, and rather more importantly, a lot of people find someone’s intellect a lot more significant to their attractiveness than their appearance is.

If someone shows a degree of attraction that simply doesn’t mean that they’re ignoring all the good things about you, it means they’re responding to them.

I had totally forgotten about that particular incident, but I’m glad you did see my followup explanation. Apology more than happily accepted 🙂

The sexism was in the lead up to the elevator.  Rebecca had already expressed her desire to not be propositioned.   Elevator Guy put his desire to spend more time with her above her desire not to approached in that manner.

It’s been established that Elevator Guy was at the conference and was at the bar with Rebecca.  In all that time he never said anything to her, instead waited until after she left the group, and stated publicly that she was tired and wanted to sleep, to introduce himself.

To me, that’s the most sexist part of all this, regardless of his true intentions, Elevator Guy completely disregarded Rebecca’s stated desire to simply go to sleep.  Even if he really did just want coffee and conversation, she had already made it clear that she did not want any of that.

It’s more than just social ineptitude on his part that led him to override her desire to go to sleep.  Maybe he wasn’t consciously thinking about it, but sexism and male privilege were definitely major contributing factors to his behavior.

Obviously I did not. But I was responding to the part Hemant linked, where she specifically mentions that they ignore her opinion on matters because she is not a physicist. 

In order to know for certain you would need to see how men with comparable degrees are treated. However as an individual, when you are stared at, have sexual innuendo thrown your way frequently, and even inappropriately touched, you know your gender has something to do with your problems at work. In that context being treated as “awww aren’t you cute!” can easily be classified as just another piece in the mistreatment puzzle. It may be a missclassification of course, but it does not detract from the larger point and it’s also made more suspicious given that it’s pretty clear that a lot of what happened to her wouldn’t have, had she been male.

Anonymous, there are many people who believe that sexual orientation is not a choice, but something genetic. They shouldn’t be accused of hating people just based on their scientific opinion.

Okay, here is the issue as I
see it. It is certainly exhausting to go through an ElevatorGate-like
discussion where everything is sliced and diced into the smallest possible
distinctions, but I still feel that people still learn more from that than the
“The Atheist Community has a problem with sexism from some males somewhere
that we aren’t naming specifically” because the second example leaves no
way to tell to what extent that is true and if any progress is being made.

My solution is that we should first
talk about respecting women’s (and in general, people’s) right to be
comfortable in social situations. Don’t immediately make accusations, even
about the skeptical community at large, because then you are just going to get
bogged down in a discussion of whether that is true or not instead of teaching
people about the issue. Then when a specific incident comes up with
inappropriate propositioning you can say “You may not have meant to, but
you are making her uncomfortable, so just don’t do that in the future, okay?
Thank you.”  And I think that that
will make the discussions go smoother. For this to work we need to set down
some general ground rules about when certain activities are acceptable since
(shown by Rebecca and Stef) not every woman agrees on every situation. A
general consensus should be reached which will help people to better know what
to do in these situations.

The state could offer grants to students in the hard sciences or encourage universities to lower their fees by sponsoring them.  Businesses could offer low cost loans to students and train them during gap years.

If you have an industry that has a shortage of trained staff then make it more attractive by paying them more or offering incentives like low cost loans, relocation packages, preferential mortgage rates, package deals on benefits, stock options, etc.

Sure it’s social engineering but it’s that or a generation of lawyers and accountants.

If only more men and women could do this over the issue of sexism–on the internets!!! Beautiful.

Turns out he was Welsh, but so drunk, he sounded Irish.

Hmmm…another one who didn’t read the source article and yet he “gets” it enough to write a short essay.

The intern knew the discrimination was about more than being a lowly intern because the men displayed…uh, SPOILERS…ah, ah, you’ll have to read the article to get those tid bits.

LOL!!!  “Get a social life, you nerdy sexist!  ‘Cuz true playaz keep it off the clock.”  *wink, wink*  :: SLAP:: 

(you decide if that was my palm hitting my forehead or the aforementioned playa whapping his coworker’s ass)

Yes, you apply a slight pressure to the button, while hovering over the intended area.  This instruction may be helpful to you in other areas as well, not that I’m making any assumptions

I just think it’s a damn shame that every woman has to have her appearance mentioned and then noticed by the audience and almost subtly monitored (are you hot or not) to get to talk to freaking Conan OBrien’s…Conan will now speak with you; you have been suitably feminized.  Can you imagine if we took that much time to talk about a man’s clothes, body, possible weight loss(?)…how awkward…and revealing…would that be?  lol. 

Also, pleasantries are boooooring.  Let’s get into the meat of it, or can’t they come up with anything funny?  What happens when ugly women come on…”so, uh, Hot Weather today, wasn’t it.” 🙂

Yes.  But it’s for choosing to tell a marginalizing joke.  From that moment, they’ve made the work environment a potentially hostile place for a women.  Of course they
wouldn’t want to share it with her but if they don’t she’s excluded…to share it or to keep it to themselves,
either option is an act of marginalization towards a women.  The inclusive solution:  engage in banter that doesn’t rely on cutting down other people.

“the effects of being female,” eh? 

So because I am not discriminated against, you can’t come up with examples of discrimination? It is true that I might miss examples that I see, but I am asking for others to bring them up when they can, and explain how it is sexist. Nobody has yet done this for the elevator incident.

All you have done is post vague examples of what you perceive to be sexism.

Propositioning someone for sex is not sexist. Ignoring everything other than their sex appeal is sexist, but you can do one without the other. When I say you should bring forward any examples of sexism you find, I mean it, and I will gladly condemn that behavior, or if it is me that is doing it, I will try to change my ways. But I have yet to see a single example of actual sexism in the atheist community, aside from a few comments on Youtube and other forums (which are a cesspool by default, and I don’t think they are really representative of atheists in general).

I like being complimented, you like being complimented. I have not met a single person and found out that they don’t like being complimented (a few feel slightly awkward and don’t know how to respond, but they still do like it).  So how is complimenting someones appearance a bad thing? If you do it instead of paying attention to other qualities that aren’t influenced by sex, then it is a problem, but not because you are complimenting them, it is because you aren’t paying attention to them as a person.

And you cannot hold me responsible for how people interpret my actions, unless the actions are at least ambiguous, or even misleading. If I tell a woman she has a nice ass, does that say anything at all about my opinions of her character? If you think it does, then you are mistaken.

If anything, your post shows that more sexism is perceived than actually goes on. It doesn’t help that the first thing you can tell about someone is how they look, so a lot of initial comments might be about that, but that is a product of the way we interact, not a product of sexism.

So now because I am straight I have something against LGBTQs?

Last time I checked, sexual orientation isn’t a choice. I didn’t choose to be straight anymore than anyone else chose to be gay.

The point is, I am biologically forced to pay attention to the physical attractiveness of women, but not the physical attractiveness of men. It is largely beyond my control, so I don’t see how it is morally wrong for me to notice or compliment the looks of women more than I do the looks of men. I would expect straight women to notice men more, gay men to notice men more, and gay women to notice women more. Sexual orientation is a fact of biology, don’t expect it to go away.