Can't Wait to See the Exam Question About This…

I don’t favor putting creationism into the classroom even to debunk it for two reasons:

1. Class time is limited. Time spent debunking creationism would cut into time students could be learning actual science.
2. Allowing creationism in for the purpose of debunking legitimizes the presence of creationism in the classroom. This would have the double effect of arming creationists with an argument that creationism IS science (otherwise, why would it be taught in biology?) and opening the door to teachers willing to promote creationism. It would be harder to pursue creationism in the classroom if you had to prove, beyond it’s mere presence, that it was being promoted.

Having said that I do think that much more time should be spent in the classroom learning the scientific method and that in addition students should learn how one distinguishes science from pseudoscience. For any student not going into the scientific field, this would be the greatest contribution their science class could give them. Beyond just creationism, the appreciation for evidence-based thinking and the ability to distinguish evidence from snake-oil will help them avoid all sorts of irrational claims; astrology, homeopathy etc..

Parents, if they are interested in helping their kids confront creationism, could teach them about creationisms claims and many flaws at home.

Of course what Doonsbury gets wrong is that Noah did include the dinosaurs. And they all fit because they were cute little baby dinosaurs. And Unicorns too, just not the pink ones Disney pushes.

(really, you can look it all up on http://www.answersingenesis.org/)

Hi Ken 🙂

I agree to teach it, and debunk it, using humor and logic. First poster says it would be a waste of time. Completely disagree. You are teaching something more important than just memorizing facts… but critical thinking when debunking creation stories. hopefully students will have a real moment when some learn it IS completely ridiculous. That probably has more payoff in some respects and taking a day or 2 to debunk.

Then you follow up the christian myth, with.. ok class now we are moving to the aztec creation myth.. anyone want to dive into that one? Hopefully the class will laugh and say… No thanks.

I don’t think you have to plumb the depths of creationist sophistry, but it would be good to address common misconceptions such as the “macro evolution” thing. Most people aren’t deceived by detailed arguments about probability theory, they have elementary misunderstandings like “if we came from apes, why are there still apes?”

‘Facts’ are neutral. However, there are no such things as ‘brute facts’; all facts are interpreted. Once the Bible is eliminated in the argument, then the Christians’ presuppositions are gone, leaving them unable to effectively give an alternate interpretation of the facts. Their opponents then have the upper hand as they still have their presuppositions—see Naturalism, logic and reality.

Directly from the Answers in Genesis website. Can’t make this stuff up.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/cm/v22/n1/creation-proof

I think that only scientifically valid subjects should be taught is science classes. That said; I think that the ‘controversy’ or ‘issue’ of “alternative theories” to evolution could have a place in other classes, perhaps in social science or even civics. I do not wish to say there are things which “should not be taught”, simply that they should be taught in the proper context and setting. I would have enjoyed a classroom debate in my civics class on the subject when I was in high school.

Ugh no, just no. I’m nowhere near a scientist. I’m a high school drop out with no formal education to speak of. And I’m so beyond grateful that I didn’t have a science teacher who tried to introduce creationism, even for debunking. I did have one who addressed the topic when a student brought it up (which I think is totally appropriate). The guy gets bonus points for shutting the kid down with minimal time and without being a raging jerk to the poor idiot in question.

I don’t think creationism should be addressed in science classes AT ALL, unless it were some kind of “politics/philosophy of science” idea (or again, if a student brings it up it can be briefly dismissed). Of course in a class that encompassed that concept I would expect to be part of a different category (high school philosophy classes, when they exist, seem to fall under humanities).

However, I do think that it would be appropriate to address the issue in any class that is, by design, intended to encourage analytical and critical thinking of a more broad nature. Back in my day (early-mid 90s) this would have fallen under various english and literature classes. I can see how designing the courseload for something like that might be problematic, however. And those fusion classes are usually more like math/science and english/history than english/math.

All of which brings me back to… just no.

I wouldn’t support teaching the ridiculous alternative theories as an opportunity to debunk them. Sounds like a waste of time. I do like the idea of teaching the answers to the most comment arguments against evolution though, like your example. I’d love to see the look on that fundi kid’s face when he gets an F for answering “I would tell Kenny he’s exactly right, and that’s why evolution doesn’t make sense.”

I’m on “team don’t spend the class time to teach (or debunk) the controversy”. I’m afraid that too many high-school teachers will take creationism seriously and teach it as an equally probable (or even more probable) theory.

P.S. my high school physics teacher told us (in class) that evolution wasn’t true.

Would you rather a science teacher bring up Creationism/ID in order to debunk it, or would you rather the teacher not mention the fake “controversy” in the first place?

What year of school would this get taught? The earlier it happens, the more of an impact the debunking would have.

I don’t think creationism should ever be mentioned by name or on the sly. What should be mentioned as early as possible is scientific naturalism, IOW, the idea that science is a method of investigating the world that does not and can not involve supernatural beings of any sort. Once that has been established in the classroom, then it automatically settles that creationism/ID/angels/demons/leprechauns/unicorns will never be discussed.

I’m a student in a public university and in my Biology 103 class the professor took time to address Creationism/ID. He made very clear that its claims are supported by no evidence, and he showed clips from the NOVA documentary about Dover. We did not waste time learning all that Biblical nonsense; rather, we focused on how the “scientific” claims of ID aren’t scientific.

From what I gather talking to my classmates, many college students really benefit from this education because they arrive as a Freshman with a bad understanding of evolution and believe that the religious criticisms of it are valid.

So I’m glad that this was taught in my biology class.

I teach at the college level, and I never bring up creationism. I do take a full two weeks of lecture to build up to natural selection and evolutionary theory, going through all of the history of geological discoveries of deep time, biological discoveries of genetics and mutations, how to measure time by radioactive decay, etc., so by the time we get to evolution and natural selection it just seems like the natural conclusion of all of that data put together (well, that’s the hope). Very few people have brought up creationism in class, but if they do I say that there’s not any class time for it but I’ll be glad to answer questions for them and anyone else interested after class.

I think its fascinating that most of my self-professed atheist fellow travelers don’t know the history around the theory of evolution. Biblical creation was debunked by GEOLOGISTS and “naturalists” had to play catch-up. Geologists who studied rates of erosion and extrapolated backwards or who used fossils for dating rock strata and found fish or seashell fossils at the tops of mountains were the scientists who debunked biblical creation. Naturalists then were filling the void with competing theories of evolution (LeMarck, etc.) They were called naturalists before biology became more rigorously codified and established. I think this historical factoid can be briefly mentioned when teaching the theory of evolution in school.

This factoid is crucial – its an aha! moment. You can’t argue with erosion rates – they are directly observable in the present. A lot of people who are merely Deist or irregularly religious or doubting find the theory of evolution to be contrived (why come up with this theory in the first place, what’s the point?)… until they learn the history that the biblical theory was debunked by geologists. Then they get it. Really, from an emotional standpoint, in my life, that has been most people’s major objection to the theory of Darwinian evolution, that it seems so arbitrary and unfulfilling and is it necessary? So, yeah, it is necessary.

Caludia wrote:

“I’m a “real scientist” and though the classic flow-chart of the scientific method is very simplistic, it’s not true that we don’t think of a good hypothesis and then plan and execute experiments. In fact, as noted by @dauntless, papers still use the “This is the current state of knowledge of X-This aspect is still unknown-we sought to learn if the mechanism could be Y-these experiments were employed-these controls were done-results point to this conclusion.”

Agreed. As you and I both stated, the scientific method is necessary for presenting research. Whenever I write something for a peer-reviewed journal, I utilize this method. But my point was that this is not the best way to teach students how to be scientifically literate, and to understand the nature of science.

Students need to begin with learning science process skills, alongside the nature of science (order and organization, demanding evidence and explanations, that science is dynamic, etc.). Without these things, the scientific method means nothing to students. To teach the scientific method to children often misleads them into thinking that all science has a concrete beginning and end. I grew up memorizing these steps without knowing their true meaning (because it was never taught to me)… and without having the skills necessary to following this method. The idea of teaching the scientific method to children is quite antiquated, and for good reason. It falls into that fact-based philosophy of just throwing information at children and expecting them to absorb it. Today, we use inquiry to teach the processes and methods of science. It makes it more meaningful to the children who are learning, and it allows them to utilize these skills throughout their lives. Not all of my students will grow up to be scientists. But I do hope they will all be scientifically literate.

I can’t remember who said this but comedy is the best weapon to deal with irrational nonsense such as Creationism.
Just ask Edward Current to name one comedian.

I’m all in favor of “teaching the controversy.” But the controversy isn’t a science controversy. Politics, current events, history (linking Scopes and other times of oppression to now).

But the argument that you don’t really need to know evolution unless you go into a science career is specious. 90% of the facts we learn in school is useless in the real world. When was the last time someone asked someone to prove a trigonometric identity or what the Teapot Dome scandal was or whether a particular poem is written in iambic pentameter or not.

What we are supposed to learn in school is how to solve problems, how to research things, and how to think about things in a cultural context. For that you need truth. Evolution is truth in science. ID is truth in current events.

Those students who still want to cling to their creationist or literal “inerrant” bible beliefs should, hopefully, understand that science teachers mainly want them to be literate about what Darwin and other historically important science figures actually said as opposed to what the general public thinks they said. AM talk (rant) radio is loaded with kids calling in to say their science teacher said “the giraffe’s neck grew so it could reach the tree leaves”–no, that’s Lamarc and not Darwin. Also, being exposed to a passing survey of ideas that may not be used later in life trigonometry at least shows students some of the tools/arrows in the scientists quiver that are thre to be used if needed. Teapot dome an other events help to reinforce memory as to what happened as some events led to other events which may happen, again, some day–or not. Leonard Bernstein got to mention iambic pentameer in his, Joy of Music, to show that the blues could be considered “classical” music. “My babe, she left, she left, done gone away…” (I paraphrased it)–(iambic pentameter). All these historical people, events and concepts, in various fields of study, can be useful, at times, as starting points or “points of departure” at those times when one is trying to “contrast & compare” or if looking for a place to start when researchig history or trying to understand what some historian is referring to in the daily news or in conversation. And, I wish those teachers who try to appease some students by saying, about evoluion, “It’s just a theory” would realize that what they are trying to say is “It’s just a hypothesis”. A theory is something supported by the prepondeance of the evidence, And evolution is a theory–not, merely, a hypothses, by now.

I didn’t hear about creationism until I got into university. It took me a year to understand that people just don’t accept the evidence for it.