This Should Clear Everything Up…

Cute idea. Too bad they’ll have little relevance tomorrow. Oh well, better to strike while the iron is hot than to do nothing at all.
Here’s hoping they sell!

No, what’s going on here is that people want to blame this guy for having the gall to talk to a woman while having a penis between his legs. How dare he.

Quoted for truth!

I should pick up one of these shirts for TAM9.

This is the awesomest thing said/done during this entire fiasco.

As far as I see, the only complaint about what was actually said was that it wasn’t a very good line and the guy didn’t have the right context. But that isn’t really what this is all about, is it? Even if he just tried to strike up a casual conversation, perhaps something that added on to what had recently been said, or if he just complimented Watson on her speech, I suspect the reaction would be much the same. ‘Why, how dare he! Women are tender little things that get nervous in elevators late at night. It was only natural for her to suspect rape was on its way! In fact, what was he doing even riding on the same car? He should have waited for the next one. Hell, that seems even a little sexist. Make the penis-having schlub take the stairs!’

Okay, so you criticized the two of them for perpetuating drama within inappropriate settings, distracting from more important issues and topics. You bring up problems with sexism our community has and mock a situation that was disrespectful at best, dangerous at worst, and repeated only for the commentary NOT universal male castigation. The masculine ego is a petty and insecure one, I am ashamed to say.

What are you doing now? You weren’t involved. Let it go.

“Fuck this stupid ass drama… enjoy your ‘atheist’ community. I’m out!”

I agree. And to underline that point I will say I FUCKING AGREE. I pretty much abandoned the skeptic community after the DBAD speech and now with all this feminist crap trying to put it’s stamp on the atheist movement with pathetic non-stories like this and many others, atheism as a “movement” can go fuck itself too.

…a situation that was disrespectful at best, dangerous at worst

You mean it was similar to the worst case scenario at worst. The guy didn’t lay a finger on her. In fact, he ceased all conversation when turned down.

But maybe I’m just showing my privilege by not acting like any situation with any man is dangerous.

GAH! This is all so wrong! How could you do this?

What am I talking about, you ask..

Well, both shirts show poor usability consideration. The text for “will” and “won’t” and extremely similar (start with the same character and have similar lengths) and hence, are easily confused. They also don’t afford reading from long distances and can cause some difficulty to the viewing impaired. A better design would be to have the WILL and WON’T in bolder letter in different font faces with WILL being in bright red and WON’T being in bright green and extra spacing between them and the rest of the sentence. The words “talk” and “blog” can also be made more prominent and the contrast can be worked on.

/Yeah thread derail
// Don Norman’s Design of Everyday Things is an amazing book: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0465067107/

For the guy in the elevator, “No!” meant “No!” He asked. She said “No!” He accepted the “No!” as final. End of incident.

That seems an acceptable standard of conduct to me, folks.

The part I find ironic about this whole thing is the focus on the time. It is OK to say one thing at X but not OK to say it at Y.

I guess I’ve been living in the “big city” too long, working graveyards and what not. I personally don’t find it noteworthy that it was 4 am. Call me strange if you like.

Why impersonate a sexist moron, Hemant?

I think I realized what is behind this, it is the same persecution complex mechanic, that makes the religious cry they are being persecuted over the smallest things.

So in the end it has nothing to do with what actually happened. In this case she cries persecution, because a man dared to violate on her rights to decide who gets to talk to her or not.

We men are not slaves, who only are allowed to speak to women when spoken to by a woman. Religious think we atheists are lesser class, so when we speak without a permission, it is persecution.

Only reason a mechanic like this exists, is because in the eyes of party who cried persecution, the other party committing the persecution is lower class than the one crying persecution.

Since she thinks men only should talk to her when spoken to, let her taste her own medicine, and no men talk to her for a good while. She thinks she is in a class of her own, good for her, I hope it doesn’t get too lonely.

Makes about as much sense as shirts saying “I will put out” or “I won’t put out.”

I’m making a shirt that says “I will put out, unless I think you’re a complete and total loser. You feeling lucky, punk?”

Oh my goodness! I’m so offended by these shirts!!! Oh wait. That’s right. I’m not.

That so many people, including Watson, absolutely refuse to separate “the issue” into their distinct parts (namely: actual incident in elevator, blog conversation and counterpoint, and then conference speech) and are instead mushing it into this giant OMGIFYOUDONOTAGREEWITHMEYOUAREAMISOGYNIST flounce session, speaks volumes.

They are just t-shirts. That said, I wouldn’t wear one to a conference. I wouldn’t want to be savaged publicly for having my own opinion in the middle of a group of people who are supposed to facilitate and encourage individuals to think outside the box. Oh irony…you carry a big stick.

I agree that the response to this ‘incident’ is ridiculous. Perhaps more annoying than anything else is the way that the more hysterical side discounts anyone who disagrees by patronizingly declaring that your opinion will never count because your brainwashed by your own ‘privilege’ so ‘you just don’t get it’. The comments section over on PZ’s blog has rarely been so depressing.

Really, Hemant? You resort to the False Dilemma fallacy and hope this will make things better?

An artless invitation to coffee seems like it would do nothing to heighten or lessen that potential for danger.

So you think this was really an invitation for “coffee”…in his room?

Yeah, Poe’s Law in all directions on this one, including me.

Still, I think the best thing to do would be to close shields and stand against the rampant misogyny showing up in threads like this, regardless of how you feel about the subsequent (and to my eye, somewhat silly) argument about Watson calling out McGraw for calling out Watson.

@Alex,
I think that reflects a difference in the average straight man’s experience being sexually propositioned versus the average woman’s (of any stripe).

I do not think most straight men have had the experience of being propositioned in a threatening way. When you have, trust me, you know the difference.

The thing about getting into an enclosed space that so many seem to be forgetting is the following two words:

PLAUSIBLE. DENIABILITY.

Since no one knows what really happened, but we know that Rebecca was really bothered by it. So we have basically two options:

1. Assume that Rebecca is an unreasonable man-hating bitch who just can’t deal with being spoken to by someone with a penis. Elevator Guy is blameless.
2. Assume that Rebecca is a reasonable adult whom we all respect, who does NOT usually react this way to being spoken to by men.
Elevator Guy may have been free of ill intent, but his effect would have been creepy to any reasonable observer.

Which one results in sending atheist women the message, “We won’t believe you if someone DOES harass you in an elevator – in fact, we’ll openly question your judgment?”

It’s a rhetorical question.

Even if he just tried to strike up a casual conversation, perhaps something that added on to what had recently been said, or if he just complimented Watson on her speech, I suspect the reaction would be much the same. ‘Why, how dare he! Women are tender little things that get nervous in elevators late at night. It was only natural for her to suspect rape was on its way! In fact, what was he doing even riding on the same car? He should have waited for the next one. Hell, that seems even a little sexist. Make the penis-having schlub take the stairs!’

You moron. You can’t make up shit that never happened and then use it try and make a point. What happened was a guy acted like a skeeze and was called on it.

@Yakamoz,

Option 3 reads “Assume it was 4 AM and everyone’s interpersonal skills were a bit off by then.”

Seriously, this is why I will never get a room in the venue of a conference I am attending. Everyone stays up and talks until stupid AM at which point someone says something stupid and it escalates. Far better to have a room 5 minutes’ walk away and be forced to leave while you’re still fit for a 5 minute walk.

I’m not a fan of Randi but I’m tempted by the second shirt. Just because blogging makes all sorts of social situations more awkward.

Villa,

As I’m thinking about people’s comments on danger, one thing doesn’t make sense.

Why does the coffee invitation make a difference?

If the claim is, “an elevator is an enclosed space where a woman might reasonably feel threatened,” then the man made a mistake before he opened his mouth. He got on the elevator with a woman who might feel threatened.

An artless invitation to coffee seems like it would do nothing to heighten or lessen that potential for danger.

That’s exactly right. This isn’t about what the guy said. Only the most dishonest people have even bothered to focus on the coffee comment. Every reasonable (and honest) person knows what the guy said cannot be indicted. The issue here is that he even said anything to her at all. The coffee comment is being used as a means to an unsavory end that has nothing to do with atheism, and hardly a thing to do with rationality.

bastion of sass,

So you think this was really an invitation for “coffee”…in his room?

Thanks for proving the point here. Villa made a point about an inconsistency in the arguments being put forth here and you utterly refuse to respond. No, instead you insist that Villa return to the irrelevant coffee comment. If you can’t keep up, you shouldn’t participate.

Donalbain

You moron. You can’t make up shit that never happened and then use it try and make a point. What happened was a guy acted like a skeeze and was called on it.

Really? I made my point that what’s happening here is that elevator guy opening his mouth is being used as an excuse to make a mountain out of a mole hill. I then said that anything he said to Watson would have been viewed as sexist, and I gave examples of things that could not be viewed as having anything to do with sex. That isn’t making up “shit that never happened”. You and bastion of sass might want to get together and discuss why it is you can’t even keep up with the discussion before you try and tell people they’re wrong.

No. he was not fucking polite. Alone, in a closed environment with a woman you have never met before, it is never polite to proposition her for sex. Just because someone does not use naughty words, does not mean that they are being polite.

So first you chastise me for making up stories – even though you just didn’t understand what was being said, silly you – but now it’s okay for you to make up what elevator guy was thinking? How do you know? Are you him? Can you read minds? Do you think all men want sex all the time?

Thanks for trying.

*redundant post*

Fuck you, you moron. If you want to pretend that “come to my room for coffee” is not a proposition for sex, then you are too fucking retarded for me to bother with any further.

@Donalbain

Fuck you, you moron. If you want to pretend that “come to my room for coffee” is not a proposition for sex, then you are too fucking retarded for me to bother with any further.

Has dating etiquette changed so radically?

I’d have taken ‘we should get coffee’ as an invitation to a ‘getting to know you’ date. This could be welcome or not, depending on the person or circumstances.

But if I’m understanding you right, this is now an outright proposition, and it’s ‘fucking retarded’ to take it as anything else?

—
But again, this seems like a lesser issue; social awkwardness is less bad than fear for one’s safety.

So if we’re to criticize the coffee-guy, it seems like we should do it on the basis that he trapped himself in an enclosed space. The specific words he said would be incidental to the threat that this apparently created.

And a conclusion of, “men should be aware of women’s feelings. Getting onto an elevator with them at 4am in a foreign country can generate some discomfort and should generally be avoided,” seems not-unreasonable. Focusing on the specifics of an invitation seems to distract from this more important and more general point.

I’d have taken ‘we should get coffee’ as an invitation to a ‘getting to know you’ date. This could be welcome or not, depending on the person or circumstances.

Yes, “Lets go out for coffee sometime.” would be an invitation for a date during which you might get to know one another. “Wanna come to my room for some coffee” asked late at night would be a proposition for sex. And yes, it is retarded to pretend otherwise.

The thing is that as inappropriate as it was, he took no for an answer and immediately dropped it. Therefor the reaction and all the ridiculous and childish drama that ensued are a complete overreaction.

We can’t speak to elevator guy’s intent – hell, we can’t even speak to his sexual orientation. Sometimes coffee is just coffee.

What happened was he asked a woman if she’d like to have some coffee in an elevator. She didn’t want to, and found his invitation creepy, and it may have been. She’s entitled to feel like that. Four in the morning or no, if he followed her into the elevator with the intent of asking her for coffee, that’s a little creepy. He could have asked her before boarding the elevator, but who knows, maybe he’s shy. Maybe it didn’t occur to him until they were both on the elevator. It doesn’t matter.

The whole drama surrounding the thing is silly at this point. He did something perceived as creepy, she called him out on it. That’s the end of the story. People have the right to disagree with her perception, and frankly, her response to the criticism has been questionable (at the very least), but she has the right to do that, too.

I consider myself a feminist. I don’t care if someone else validates that perception – I know that everyone, regardless of gender is to be treated equally, and I uphold that belief in my actions. Women’s rights and everything surrounding it are secondary to the incident, and we need to stop making issues out of one person’s discomfiting experience in an elevator.

Let this die, people. We don’t need the in-fighting, we don’t need to be picking sides. This is a non-issue.

@Pam Ellis:

You nailed it. =)

Frankly I don’t see why Rebecca Watson felt it necessary to continue talking about this – or, frankly, to publicize it in the first place. She was hoping to… what? I think whatever good she felt would come out of publicizing this event/encounter/conversation has been thoroughly negated.

Poor judgment on behalf of the man who talked to her and made her feel threatened in that circumstance; good judgment on behalf of the same man who apparently then stopped trying; poor judgement on behalf of Rebecca Watson who decided to make it public.

There are several things at play here, so maybe that’s why this has all blown sky high.

1) Rebecca had never spoken to the guy prior to the incident.

2) She had spent all night talking about the problem of men objectifying & scaring away women from atheist conventions.

3) She expressed quite clearly that she was tired & going to bed.

4) She was alone. Because she was alone, she would have been doing what every woman has to do. Be situationally aware. Women are constantly assessing their surroundings to ensure that they don’t get into trouble.

5) It was 4am. There are usually not a lot of people around in a hotel at 4am. See above: situational awareness.

6) She get onto the elevator, which is an enclosed space. Regardless of what some people say, it is very easy to get assaulted in an elevator (I have been assaulted on a train, hell I’ve been assaulted in a fucking parade with thousands of people).

7) Despite all her cues to the contrary, EG chose to ignore what Rebecca’s body language & words to the room before she left, to satisfy his own needs (and this is what is so disrespectful).

8) Rebecca makes a video to try and make this an educating point. She doesn’t scream rape. She doesn’t interpolate what might have been going on in EG’s head. She just says, bit creepy dude.

Can’t we all just take this teaching point for what it is and move on?

More appropriate tshirts would be:

“If you come up to me and, as a complete stranger, without even bothering to spend a minute to let me get to know you, immediately ask me to give you an orgasm, though I have no idea who you are and can only make a judgement by a total of my 3 seconds interaction with you, and even though I have made it clear that I don’t like to be regarded simply as a source of orgasms, then I will tell other people about how I feel about such an approach.”

vs

“I’m all for anonymous sex with a person I have interacted with for all of 3 seconds, and not only will I defend my right to engage in random sex, I think everyone should regard being randomly asked for sex by a stranger as something that totally demonstrates how much they are being respected as individuals rather than as an object that dispenses sexual gratification. And I think anyone who says they personally don’t think this is the best approach to demonstrate respect for a woman should just stfu, cos telling men that randomly asking strangers for sex might not portray them as sensitive and respectful individuals totally hurts their feelings.”

selfification,

“They also don’t afford reading from long distances and can cause some difficulty to the viewing impaired. A better design would be to have the WILL and WON’T in bolder letter in different font faces with WILL being in bright red and WON’T being in bright green and extra spacing between them and the rest of the sentence. ”

What about the blind? Braille perhaps?

Ahhh I knew it wouldn’t be long. The poor white man’s lament. But don’t worry brothers! One day there will be an white male CEO, there might even be a white male legislator, and if you just keep the dream alive, who knows, there might even be a white male president.

Arghh.

@Brian, wow, you’re absolutely right. Men have never had legal or ‘other means of force’ power over women – men never had the right to rape their wives, women always had the right to vote, bosses never extort sexual favors from female employees, women get equal pay as men, there’s no glass ceiling, no large groups of men are trying to take away my constitutional right to choose, and I have the same right to marry a woman as a man does.

I didn’t realize it until I saw your post, but that must be why the equal rights amendment passed with no objections. Who needs feminism?

I’d call you a clueless git, but I don’t want to insult clueless gits everywhere.