Let’s Help These Vandalized Churches

I live in this town, and I’m a painting contractor. I sent out an email to the churches as soon as I heard what was happening, volunteering my equipment and time to get this fixed.

I was checking here, Hemant, to send you a note about this. Thanks for being so on top of it!

I can’t find it in my heart not to. I am staunchly Atheist but helping ANYONE clean up after being criminally vandalized is the right thing to do. What they do with the money isn’t on me, the fact that I had a kind enough heart to give to someone who needed it is.

You would be paying for paint and a painter. Not paying for church functions.

“But the bottom line is that God is the one that’s going to get revenge — we aren’t.”

For that threatening message alone…for the fact that they believe the vandals deserve eternal punishment in hell…they won’t be getting my help. Sorry. My money, as little as I have, goes only to good causes that truly need it.

To help a church paint over some scribblings and replace bricks? Sorry, I have better things to donate toward.

I would help clean up if I was near the area, but I feel badly about giving churches money – like I wouldn’t give a drunk money for self improvement – I’d give a sandwich or a bath…sponge bath…with rose oil….okay, I gotta go.

Very good idea.

Chipped in.

I donated.

It starts somewhere. We can point to churches doing wrong; they can point to the vandals, as (very arguably) atheists. Someone has to be bigger. Their book speaks of forgiveness; their director of facilities says god will get revenge. I have no book–*I* speak of forgiveness.

Maybe it will change an opinion. Maybe not. At minimum, someone has to clean up that mess. Why me? Hey, it’s my world, too.

It starts somewhere.

I agree with Yet Another Atheist…

interesting

I don’t have much at the moment in way of disposable cash but I gave a few bucks.

Btw while I can understand not wanting to give money to a church, helping to remove graffiti from repeatedly vandalized building is hardly going to help them proselytize.

plus what Debbie Said

Revyloution and Ben: Your sentiments match my knee-jerk idea. It would be beautiful to see a local group of atheists actually do the labor (and provide the materials if possible) to clean up the graffiti.

It will cost the church money to fix the vandalism. If you donate money, you alleviate their need to pay for the vandalism. They now have money to continue on being whatever kind of church they are.

I’m not donating but I’m not saying that others shouldn’t either. I’m just saying that you can go on all day about how the money is only going to the repairs and not to the church’s activities but in the end it frees them up to keep on keeping on.

Judging by their desire for their god to strike down the vandals that caused the damage, I’m guessing they are at least somewhat conservative.

I as a remote will help provide the $ for materials, and I hope the first poster and others help provide the labor. Donation made.

I must be the change I want to see in the world.

I have no problem donating something for this cause but what if the church refuses this donation?

That is, if you approach them honestly and let them know that this charitable donation is coming from a group of atheists, what will be done with this donation if the church refuses it strictly because of who it’s coming from?

I hope this would not be the case but it could be a very real possibility. Is there an alternative charity that these funds can be donated to if this one falls through?

(Hemant says: If they refuse it, the money will go to Foundation Beyond Belief.)

“I must be the change I want to see in the world.”

One of my favorite quotes Synapse…

Donation also made.

I think it is a really cool idea. I cannot afford to donate right now, but I am glad to see the widget already collecting $. While it is totally understandable that many do not want to donate, I do think that when I was a Christian, having this happen to my church building and then a bunch of stranger atheists come in and clean it up would have completely blown my mind. It would have made a huge impression and will definitely be a big deal to a lot of the people that hear about it, even if not much is ever said about it.

On one hand vandalism is usually wrong but on the other the church has to spend money to clean up so that takes away money from the church which is always good.

Can’t we just have nuclear war already and then build a better, secular society.

Thank you for setting this up, what a great idea! I’d just like to echo what Lady Cooper said. Many, maybe even most, Christians have awful stereotypes of atheists (I know I did when I was an evangelical Christian) and something like this can really open people’s eyes to how generous many of us heathens can be, even if we absolutely disagree with the philosophy of the people we are helping.

Thanks again, and please continue to use this blog to notify us of ways we can help other people.

Those churches hardly need Atheist funds to remove minor graffiti. Pulpits are always awash with money fleeced from the sheep – let them use that for the whitewashing. As many other posters said, I only give to worthy causes. Why should I wish to fund organizations that demonize my views and promote beliefs and causes I frankly find abhorrent and inimical to my values and political goals? If a Nazi meeting hall was vandalized, should rationalists give to its restoration fund too?

This isn’t about giving money to a church. It’s about making a screwed up situation right. It took me years to get up the guts to put an FSM emblem on my car. Now I am proud to call myself a Pastafarian (can I get a RAmen?). Whoever the yahoos were that thought this was a good idea do NOT represent The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. As a now fairly vocal follower of His Noodly Goodness, I feel compelled to send a message that this behavior is unacceptable. And, when one of us acts in an unacceptable way, we will attempt to make it right. Now only if the Catholic Church acted so responsibly…

Thanks, Hemant.

More proof that the whole F.S.M. thing has gotten completely out of control. What started out as a funny little academic joke has morphed into a giant social club for wankers and dipshits who just happen to be atheists, complete with their own line of merchandise.

F.S.M. became a worn-out, juvenile cliche a long time ago, so let’s all grow up and bury it already.

I’m unemployed and would donate if I could, but we are having trouble making ends meet. I’ve never been the type to accept charity in the past, but in the last few weeks a friend talked me into going to a soup kitchen to help since money has been tight. The soup kitchen is run by the church, so I felt even worse about accepting help. The church has never expected any conditions for proving my family a meal. I have never been asked if I belonged to the church. Neither prayers nor moments of silence are done. I have not been asked, let alone, pressured to come to Sunday services. Even Christians can be good, caring people that do not make their religion a requirement to help those in need.
I think it’s shameful that a fellow atheist would decline their help because other human beings do not share their same ideology. It’s petty and wrong no matter what side you are on.

I can only say that I do not announce that I’m an atheist every time I give to a charity. I have no other motive other than to donate to a cause that I think is worthy of my consideration. That being said, I am very particular in my choice of charities and do my research to insure that I not donate to any organization with any religious affiliation and that would certainly include a house of worship.

I appreciate the opinion of people who can see beyond the harm of the religion itself and the concept of contributing to that harm by offering them assistance in this but I hold no responsibility simply because someone who happens to agree with my opinion on the existence of a god also happens to choose to voice that opinion in a childish and unethical manner.

I would have no issues with seeing that person do the labour in order to fix what he or she has done and perhaps see some jail time for his or her crime but I cannot offer my personal assistance to a church without feeling like a hypocrite.

I was disgraced to watch this on the news last night. I am a Bend resident and cringed when I heard the report. It’s a nice gesture to offer to pay for the cleanup but if you knew anything about Westside church, they’re the last church that needs extra money to pay for a little cleanup. They are the darling church of the Foursquare movement and throw money around like it’s not in short supply. They purchased adjacent land for their latest expansion at the height of the real estate bubble and could have saved millions had they listened to an all knowing god who surely would have had advanced knowledge of the worlds worst financial collapse. Everything is state of the art there, a full court basketball gym, multiple high definition video screens, their own television and recording studio and on and on and on… Any moneys should go to Revyloution for stepping up to help with the cleanup.

I would give money to this, as Hement says it is just for cleaning up the churches. I think that we atheist get a bad enough rap. I don’t think this damage was done by “adults” and I don’t like a bunch of kids adding to the bad reputation atheist already have. By giving money to the cleanup it just says that most of us are responsible people.

“But the bottom line is that God is the one that’s going to get revenge — we aren’t.”

That’s a threat of hell, which is despicable and morally indefensible. On the other hand, I’d probably say some nasty and maybe indefensible things if someone spray-painted my property. I like of this idea because it’s the right thing to do, especially given how we complain about all the “nice Christians” or “moderate Muslims” who never call their own to task.

I agree with the others to whom the comment about God getting revenge sickened them.

I also agree that no matter if you say the money is going only towards fixing the vandalism, if the church was otherwise going to use its own money for the cleanup, any donations are in effect donating directly to the church for whatever purposes it sees fit.

Churches already have plenty of untaxed money. Everyone is already subsidising one or more churches.

I understand the gesture you are trying to make, but I can not, in good conscience, give money to a church ever again.

I decided that the good publicity for atheists and the idea that it’s the right thing to do were good enough reasons to donate. Good on you, Hemant!

There are people in the world with real problems that genuinely need help and you’re raising money to clean the wall of a church instead?

Some humanist.

The church members are human beings. Regardless of whatever resentment you may have toward religion, Christianity, or even these particular churches, do not allow your bitterness or cynicism to de-humanize them in your mind. You de-humanize yourself in the process. There is far too much of that all around the world now, and everyone who practices it has their oh, so compelling reasons.

Those “reasons” are based on emotion, not reason.

This is a chance to humanize ourselves in the eyes of some people who may never have really given their prejudice toward us a second thought. It’s also a chance to give a second thought to our own prejudice.

I’ve been donating too much to things lately, but this is important.

$100 donated.

Hemant, I suggest that you hold on to any surplus money for a while before donating it to FBB. The vandalism has happened before, and may yet again before the perpetrator is either caught or moves on. Vandalism is cheap and easy. Clean up is costly and hard.

I don’t have the spare cash at the moment to donate to things, but I do want to say that I agree with the principle of this.
If religious types think that atheists are greedy and immoral, then what better way to show them otherwise than to be thoughtful and generous? Think about it this way- next time anyone in that church gets up to talk about the Evil Atheists (TM), they’ll have to say that knowing that they’re talking about those nice folks who chipped in to fix their building. Next time someone who used to go to that church comes out as an atheist, the people they tell will already know of at least one time that open atheists were lovely, generous people.
Better than us being seen as simply those assholes who vandalised their church, eh?

What if we raise too much?

With someone donating labor and equipment, all they have to pay for is supplies. Paint isn’t that expensive, is it?

I fully support raising funds for this effort. It’s the right thing to do. But beyond that, I wouldn’t want to support any other church efforts. I would put a condition on the donation, that it be used only for repairs to the vandalism. And then think about where any remaining funds raised should go.

(Hemant says: All excess funds will go to Foundation Beyond Belief)

Hi!

Thanks! Yes, this will help show many more christians that not all atheists are jerks!
Not that I believed it, but it will help improve relations I believe!

Hermann, christian – Germany

I hope Revyloution gets to do some of the work and get a bit of the donated cash, if they plan on refusing his services because he’s an atheist than they should have to refuse the money too…

But I donated. I dunno, it’s possible this could even get on the news, or something, and I wanted to bump up the number of contributors.

Think about it this way- next time anyone in that church gets up to talk about the Evil Atheists (TM), they’ll have to say that knowing that they’re talking about those nice folks who chipped in to fix their building. Next time someone who used to go to that church comes out as an atheist, the people they tell will already know of at least one time that open atheists were lovely, generous people.
Better than us being seen as simply those assholes who vandalised their church, eh?

Exactly. I think it’s a lovely idea.

I am torn on this, because I think it is a nice gesture, and I do instinctively feel like it is the “right” thing to do for a lot of reasons. Then again, there are a lot of *better* things that should take priority over a vandalized church. There are people in my own community, and yours too, that need this assistance more than the churches. I’m taking any money I would have spent toward this cause and giving it to them.

I just can’t see how giving any church any money for anything can take priority over all the *actual* needs for charity in the world. Nobody’s hungry, hurt, or in danger, here. It’s a few bricks for Christ’s sake. Wah. Vandalism happens all the time, to public and private property, and usually nobody gives two craps. The churches will get plenty of help from its membership and the rest of the community. They don’t need us…but lots of others do. Consider donating your money more wisely.

The smart-a$$ part of me would like to send those churches an invoice for the taxes I’ve paid that have funded non-secular organizations and call it even.

Just throwing this out there, the vandal is probably like 14 with little to no understanding of any causes or movements, etc. Last time it was Harry Potter, this time the FSM, next time it’ll probably be about Glee.

By the way, I wouldn’t feel comfortable donating any money, but if I lived in the area, I might go see if they needed a hand. It would depend on the church though.

I contributed. Lets keep the “Monster” out of FSM!

We should set the example we would like to see when Xtians deface our billboards.

@Richard Wade

I’ve been donating too much to things lately, but this is important.

$100 donated.

Maybe this is to alleviate your guilt for vandalizing all those “With God, all things are possible” slogans.

Being responsible is important, but I think it’s more important to find out who did this and hold them accountable. Also it would be nice to make sure they were really atheists.

I think it’s fine for atheists to contribute to the repair and clean up of this vandalism, especially since the perpetrator hi-jacked the FSM and other atheist symbols.

And just for fun, here are some other questions to consider:

Would you contribute to remove swastikas painted on a synagogue?

What if someone vandalized a building owned by the KKK? Klan members are human beings too.

Donated. I love this idea. Let’s show them compassion and kindness with no strings attached.

@Dauntless:

Atheists donating money to repair the damage will not help those Christians see that atheists are good people. It will make us all look guilty as we attempt to buy our way out of “God’s revenge”.

This. These churches aren’t going to stop and say “gee, atheists really are good people.” They’re not going to want to change their ways and preach inclusiveness because some atheists helped clean up graffiti. This next Sunday, they’ll be preaching the same Hell-fire on gays, on atheists, and on immoral women who dare to want to not be pregnant.

@Darwin’s Dagger:

If they made statements like this church has, then no. (So I probably wouldn’t clean up the Klan HQ…)

Otherwise, of course I would.

Even if I had extra cash, I’d have to decline this one. After finding out that 1) the pastor threatened hell, 2) the church is state-of-the-art and flush with $$, and 3) the church has an ex-gay program I have zero desire to help them.

I grew up gay in Arkansas with threats of hell drilled into me my entire childhood. That many of the slogans were Harry Potter quotes and bible verses about violence to children(is that true?) points to someone young. If that kid had to endure being threatened with hell I can understand his/her anger. Doesn’t excuse the deed, but no way will I enable such hatred.

Can we donate to an LGBT youth cause in the church’s name instead? That would send a message.

Thanks Hemant. This is a powerful gesture and the right thing to do.

@Bill Snedden

It is too one of the reasons to avoid giving an organization money. You can’t just say “nuh uh” and drop the mic. Just because your opponent uses that logic to ill-conceived ends does not make it bad logic.

What part of the quoted statement is not true? “It will cost the church money to fix the vandalism”. True. “If you donate money, you alleviate their need to pay for the vandalism.” True. “They [will] now have money to continue on being whatever kind of church they are.” Also true.

Where’s the logical breakdown here?

I feel like if I donate, I’m admitting that the atheist community is behind this. Maybe I would be more willing to donate if this vandalizing was an actual organized action by some part of the atheist community. We don’t even know if this was an atheist who did this.

Besides I don’t feel comfortable giving money to a church.

I agree with Val and Ben. I cannot give to an organization that chooses to spread hurtful, bigoted messages. The money isn’t JUST going to clean up the mess, it will alleviate the burden the church or their insurance would have to cover, which frees their funds to continue spreading ignorance. I do not condone the vandalism, but there is no proof that the culprit really is an atheist. And, if the vandal IS an atheist, it does not make me responsible for his/her actions. In theory the donation is a good idea, and I can understand the decisions to donate to the cause, as it is always a good idea to be a decent citizen and human being, I just can’t get behind this one.

And the one question I have has not been addressed in this board yet; How exactly is the message that a bunch of atheists donated to the clean up going to become public knowledge? It would be my cynical tendency to believe that the church will either loudly reject the atheist donation, or accept the donation as quietly as possible to avoid the positive spin in our direction. Since the collection plate has already been passed, will someone be working to make sure the atheist origin of the donation will be publicized?

Glad to join you on this. I’ve asked my blog readers to donate here: Turn the Other Check. One suggestion, if you’re uncomfortable with helping a church at all, match your donation with an equal gift to a cause you support! Mine went to the ACLU.

I think a public statement condemning the vandelism should be issued by a few atheist organiozations rather than giving them money. I’m sorry, their non-tax status and plenty of sheople them money every sunday really makes it hard for me to give them money. Like was it was already said, they say nothing about vandels hitting our billboards (other than giving each other high-fives back in the office).

Donate to churches? No thanks. I already do that, unwillingly, through taxes. Let them foot the bill.

Also, I’d like to add that I have no sympathy for them at all. They spread all kinds of hate and vandalism, it’s only right they receive some in return.

When they go on live coast to coast TV and apologize and agree to condemn and prosecute all the hatemongers, the child abusers and vandals in their ranks, then I’ll change my tune and not until.

Religion does not deserve our money, nor our respect.

Shame on anyone who has donated already.

It is ridiculous to donate to a church for ANYTHING. When the KKK has a meeting hall desecrated, you want to donate to that too? If it makes you feel good to help the enemies of reason, these racist, homophobic, misogynistic, self-righteous a**holes who would gladly put you to the sword if only the government would make it legal, go right ahead. However, I don’t feel guilty for being Male, being White, or being Southern. And I DAMN sure don’t feel guilty about being an Anti-theist. I can only assume Guilt is the reason you want to help. Why else would anyone help an organization that’s main purpose is to do away with people like you. To make you the enemy of society, a pariah, an outcast. I can’t tell you how many times I have heard my Jewish Uncle talk about the times he and his fellow brothers help rebuild Nazi occupied buildings and offices after Allied forces destroyed them because, even though they were at odds ideologically, helping the Nazis was the “right thing to do.” Asinine!

Why should any atheist/ non-religious person donate to them?!

1. They will thank their god for it anyway, say how their lord worked through us to help them.

2. The last phrase shows what a vengeful group they are. Thus, let their almighty god send his angels to help repair their building of offering to him.

3. Our sinful secular money/ time/ effort can be put to much BETTER use helping secular activities that actually tries to help us and improve our environment etc.

Great idea and props to Revyloution.

If atheists want to be seen for the rational, thoughtful, caring group that we are, we have to support efforts like this.

I have reservations about giving to this cesspool of intolerance, but it is the right thing to do.

We need to show them the example of doing the right thing even if we may think that they are wrong. That, in a nutshell, is the biggest difference between us and them, and we need to model this behavior at every opportunity.

I chipped in.

You can not use the card that performing a donation to this cause is an act of rationalism, thoughtfulness, or care. Is it rational of us to give funding to reconstruct a building that worships a holy book that supports things Atheists are against? That does not seem rational to me. We condemn their actions in one attempt and then give them money in the next breath to help support their building to preach it.

At best we can condemn the actions as useless and not being an example of what Atheists stand for. That being, rational and mature conversation among the two parties. Violence and vandalism is not constructive in any way for either parties.

Sorry but if an Atheist feels they need to donate to help support this than I invite them to go reread the bible. Come back and tell me if that’s a message you still want to give money to support.

I chipped in. We need to show folks that that ain’t how we roll.

And to those who say “don’t give a dime to the churches”, I say, I just have a different opinion than you on what I’m doing. I’m not building a church. I’m not starting a church. The coat of paint this will take does not create or build a church that wasn’t there before or that won’t be there tomorrow with or without my chip in.

What it may do is help build a *bridge*. Which is more important to me than ensuring a church stays messy with grafitti.

In all this, it’s right down to the question of “what do you want to build, a wall or a bridge?”

Graffitti is a way to build walls. That’s simply not acceptable. But neither is ignoring an opportunity to build a bridge.

I, too, chipped in.

It is the way I would want to be treated if I were in their shoes.

How cool would it be if a church paid to remove graffiti from an atheist billboard?

Fuck helping them. The cost for cleanup will come from the funds they generally use to brainwash. This is a good thing.

Yes, we all agree that it was a bad thing.

Yes, if we give them $$ to help, it shows that atheists can be nice people too.

No, you don’t give $$ to those who clearly don’t need it. I would love to see the P&L Statements of these tax free institutions. I suspect that their after tax income is quite impressive.

I agree that we should publicly decry the act but giving them $$ is really not necessary.

Here’s a hypothetical situation for you: We donate to this church to get the vandalism repaired, and it turns out it was a couple of kids from their own congregation, maybe even the preacher’s kids. Don’t we then look pretty silly?

It seems to me, that by jumping to the rescue we are basically admitting that “we” (in the sense of “all atheists”) are responsible. It seems too much like an admission of guilt, when there hasn’t even been enough time for the local cops to carry on a full investigation.

I’ve seen a lot of people commenting that they feel dirty giving money to a church. There’s a reason we feel that way.

If the graffiti said “Praise Cthulu” would we still be donating to fix this church? Is it only because of the residual guilt we’re carrying around as former theists, and the uneasiness we may feel with our own parodies of religious belief?

I wouldn’t have a problem donating if the church was short on resources, that doesn’t look to be the case. I see a painter in town has volunteered his time and equipment.Labor and equipment is probably the largest part of the cost for repair. And I think the public statement made by Bobby Henderson and other Atheists goes far enough to show most if not all do not approve of this type behavior. I also just donated to a family(the mother is an Atheist) who are in need of some help. I don’t necessarily subscribe to the ‘help your own kind first’ but I think that sometimes Atheists are a bit slow in supporting other Atheists in their time of need. If you feel so strongly about helping the church then thats ok but I can think of several other Atheists who could use some help and I’m not talking about painting their house.

I donated, though it was only a couple of dollars and I see that the amount already donated is probably more than enough to cover it.

I hope that this gesture of goodwill will help defuse any animosity the church feels or might feel towards the atheist community.

I know it’s not our responsibility, in the sense that I am not the specific person who did it, but I think that no matter who got vandalized, it causes a smear on the atheist community, and it sends a good message to clean it up. That it’s not something we support.

And the pastor’s comment that god would take revenge is his way of disclaiming his anger, and believing that his god will work out justice. It’s not probably a comment meant to send evil on anyone.

It seems to be like the leftover money ought to be going to an LGBT organization, since this’ll be helping clean up a church that actively harms LGBT youth. How many people have killed themselves after trying to pray away the gay?

Honestly, even if the excess cash went toward helping LGBT youth, it wouldn’t make this whole thing feel much less dirty. It just might help even the score.

If I were gay, I’d feel betrayed.

Not a chance in hell. The church can use some of the money they’ve guilted out of their members to fix this. I would go so far as to say that they deserve it for having an ex-gay program. Helping them is enabling them to continue their activities.

They won’t be grateful. They’ll see this as atheists grovling to them. Christianity of this flavor almost always has a superiority complex going on. Don’t give money to help the religious, give money to help those in acutal need. Let them have their vandilized church, they’ve earned it.

Even if I had extra cash, I’d have to decline this one. After finding out that 1) the pastor threatened hell, 2) the church is state-of-the-art and flush with $$, and 3) the church has an ex-gay program I have zero desire to help them.

I grew up gay in Arkansas with threats of hell drilled into me my entire childhood. That many of the slogans were Harry Potter quotes and bible verses about violence to children(is that true?) points to someone young. If that kid had to endure being threatened with hell I can understand his/her anger. Doesn’t excuse the deed, but no way will I enable such hatred.

Can we donate to an LGBT youth cause in the church’s name instead? That would send a message.

This (except I grew up straight in Arkansas). I condemn the vandalism to the exact same measure I condemn vandalism against neo-nazi buildings. That is all we owe them. Not an inch more, not a penny less. The only reason I tolerate the existence of churches is a near sacred respect for freedom of belief, expression, and association. A respect that is not returned I must say.

I know you listen to conservative Christian radio, Hemant, so I know you know what we’re up against. The most blatant, unarguable disconfirmation of their understanding of Christianity is dismissed as deceit or error using the most preposterous reasoning without a shred of shame. Even if you use religious arguments, it’s just silly: WWJD, tax the rich to feed the poor or bomb the poor to line the pockets of the rich? Well clearly Jesus was a fan of getting your own house in order, as he did say “Pull the plank out of your own eye…,” and he never told government how to act, as he did say “Render unto Caesar…,” and ta-da! It’s “Pull yourself up by your bootstraps Jesus / Support our troops Jesus!”

I would much rather donate to a local school or youth group or kids sports league or anything but a church. We can show the fundies that we are good people without giving them money when they spit in our faces.

Just to be clear, I am disappointed and angry that you would consider giving money to a church for any reason, Hemant. I am with Katie and Val – I feel betrayed.

@Mark G:

$2100 that’s going to a hateful, bigoted, homophobic church. $2100 that will never change their mind. $2100 that will provide them with money to continue to say atheists are going to Hell and gay people are evil.

Great job, Hemant! $2100 that could’ve gone to people who are the victims of this Christian insidiousness. I feel so betrayed.

My apologies to Kev, Noah, Chris, Ben, and everyone else who feels betrayed by Hemant for not including you in my last post.

Hemant, I really want to know: would you please send this money to a local LGBT youth group in the church’s name instead?

@Miles:

Nah, it’s not a big deal don’t worry too much about it.

But yes, something like that would be so much better. Heck, send it to a local charity of some kind. Don’t give the money to the church. They’re spiteful, hateful, homophobic people and this gesture isn’t going to do anything.

@Drew M:

“Great job Hemahnt. Twenty-one hundred dollahs that coulda gone to people who are the vic-tims of this Christian insidiousness. Ah feel so betrayed!”

Do I disagree with the vandals that caused this damage? Absolutely. But I disagree more with giving these people any amount of money.

I live near enough to Bend that I could volunteer my time to help, only I’m not even going to do that. Not after reading about what this church stands for.

You really lost me on this one.

I don’t agree with the vandalism, but what’s done is done. I won’t donate to clean it up because, like others have said, I cannot fathom sending my money to a church, no matter what they use it for, and I had nothing to do with the vandalism.

As for the idea that I, as an atheist, need to build or maintain some benificiary type of image to the local religions, well, I don’t. I owe them nothing. I have nothing to prove to them and frankly I think that the vandals message was an improvement to the buildings and what they stand for.

Would you give your money to a known rapist because the car he uses to drive and find his victims had the words “rapist” scrawled on the side of it? I would hope not and this is the exact same thing. I would not be the one to write the words on the car, but I sure wouldn’t pay for his paint job either.

I submit that those who feel the need to prove something by donating to this cause reflect on their true motives. Do you harbor guilt for being an atheist? I don’t.

Now I’m torn. As a middle class, white, straight dude, it’s pretty easy for me to be completely thoughtless when it comes to this sort of thing. I do, obviously, think that the destruction of property is wrong, and have no qualms with taking responsibility to for the actions of a misguided few. But, the more I’ve considered this issue, the more I feel like there is a sense of misplaced priorities. Do I think bridging a gap between theists and atheists is important? Sure. Do I think supporting a more oppressed minority is more important? No doubt. I won’t lose much sleep over a church with unwanted fish skeletons on it. Maybe if it were a more tolerant church… anyhow, if there’s one thing my puny atheist minority status has taught me, it’s to take the complaints of more persecuted minorities very seriously.

I could only spare 10 bucks for this, so I can’t speak for much, but I’d now prefer the contributions go to support an LGBT group of some sort. I don’t know if there are any restrictions on what the money can go to (are there laws or something about raising money for one thing and doing something else with it?), but if it’s possible to change the goal, I would support that change.

God moves in mysterious ways. Who are we to question why He guided the hands of His children to decorate these places of worship?

Here is something to check into also, the City I work for has a policy of owner removes the graffiti and saves the reciepts. When (or if) the individuals are caught they repay the owner. So, worst case , the church gets money from us, their insurance AND repaid by whoever did it. Not bad…

I am posting my third comment on this thread because the more I think about this gesture to a church with an “ex-gay” ministry, the more I feel betrayed and the more upset I become. I was scorned in my childhood for being gay and an unbeliever. It wounded me. Please bear with me or just skip past. I’ve never tld the details to people I didn’t know well, but I feel I need to do so. It’s not a short comment….

When I grew up in AR, I was harassed daily from first grade on for a variety of reasons. One of these was that I had a lisp and was not very masculine. From an early age I was fighting depression. Add intense Fundy Christian fire-and-brimstone variety guilt and fear of damnation for some local flavor (I knew I was gay at age 11 and renounced church at age 12.) Everywhere was the message that I was defective, of the devil, damned, less than others.

During high school during the mid ’80’s I was physically attacked twice, and developed a stalker who would wait outside my classes to try to ambush me. I remember the word “kill” and “fag” being used at one point. I was so messed up by this I would fall asleep (defense mechanism) in class and began throwing up before school when I bothered to attend at all.

I went to the principle, the vice-principle, and the guidance counselor. Each time it was dismissed and I was told he does this every year. Every year??? Only the counselor showed concern but she was powerless. About this time, “omg, Chris is gay!” was actually declared out loud in classes I did not attend. I lost my best and only close friend. (Hi, Rodney!)I loved this guy, but his father, a pastor, told him we couldn’t associate because I was not Christian. That trumped gay!

Eventually I was forced to drop out of school. This was made worse because for the first time in my education I was making straight A’s and B’s. It effected my life and my goals for the future.

I couldn’t discuss it with my ignorant family who were not church-goers but still used god to justify their bigotry. I was my grandmother’s favorite, but when I declared my atheism at 15, she called me an “infidel” and we didn’t talk for days. I compromised and told her I believed in something , but I didn’t want to call it “god”. She came around, but NO WAY could I tell her I was queer.

It was 1984, long before the “It Gets Better” campaign. I even had family and in-laws that loved using hate speech regarding gays while they had no problem using me for free childcare once I left school. (Yes, they assumed I was gay. I later learned my closet door was transparent.) Any attempt at rational discourse about smeone being gay ended with “it’s a sin”. Full stop.

It took me almost 20 years to completely shed all the guilt and the lack of self-esteem that resulted from growing up as the evil, perverted “other” whose very existence was an abomination. I was indoctrinated to expect no future happiness in this world and damnation in the next.

Please, Hemant, think again about supporting these hate mongers that help destroy lives. They don’t need the cash, but plenty do.

The gesture will do nothing to advance our cause. I’ve dealt with this type for around four decades and the outcome would be neutral at best. I don’t have much fight or time left, but I’ll be damned (so to speak) if can let them win.

Chris, I am so sorry you had the experience that you did. The things that happened to you are deplorable. I wish I had known you so you’d have had at least one person growing up who didn’t judge you for who you are. I completely see your point of view and understand your anger frustration. I in NO way condone the actions of this church or any other entity who refuses to accept others as they are. That being said, since it’s pretty evident that we have little influence over the thinking and values of these churches, we need to focus on what we do have control over…our own behavior. The more WE act in a loving and ethical way, the more influence we will gain in the community and only then we’ll be able exert control over these churches and how they are viewed by society. Their bigotry has got to stop! We have to be the one’s to stand up and show the world the importance of taking responsibility for bad behavior, and stop focusing on the reasons why we feel our judgment of others is justified. I can’t speak for Hemant, but this is why I decided to donate. My son is gay. He is out to his family but not his friends. I understand his hesitancy and he knows he has his family’s full support. I hope for your emotional well-being you can find a way to forgive those who acted so poorly towards you. While your anger is righteous, it only brings you more pain and allows those assholes to continue to hold you back. There are many psychologists out there who will help you find your way out of this specific pain. I’d give you a hug if I could. I think you’re overdue for a few.

Responding to Richard Wade

Let’s put that to the test. Let’s find out. We value the scientific method of investigation, don’t we? Rather than just making sweeping assumptions? It will be an interesting experiment, well worth the fraction of money we’ve raised.

We don’t need to experiment with these people. They run an ex-gay ministry and made a threat from their deity in the press release. That’s enough for me to know all I need to know about them. This is a group that is openly hostile towards things that they view as being “of sin”. We’re atheists. To them, we are of sin. The only reason they think we’d come to them is “to be saved” from their god’s wrath, the wrath they threatened in the press release.

Hemant: I know you like seeing good in people and trying to be diplomatic, but this is not a situation for that. These people are close minded bigots who try to make gay people become straight. They aren’t worth the time or money of nonbelievers. They get enough of that from their own brainwashed congregation.

Over two thousand dollars have been donated to this already. How much can it cost to clean up a couple of graffitis anyway?

Let’s not go overboard with the donations – you know what they are going to do with the extra money, right?

Does this church have insurance to protect against vandalism?

Let’s make sure that not only the two church administrations understand what we’re doing, but the community becomes aware of it.

OK, great. How exactly are you going to make that happen. People have asked Hemant this already, and he’s completely ignored their very reasonable question.

If this is going to be a test of getting good community PR for atheism in general, someone’s going to need to make some noise about it, talk to the media, put out press releases.

Is that going to be you?

I would suggest Hemant close the fundraiser to donations at this point, and Hemant and others involved in this project contact the media outlets who originally reported this story (Richard Wade would be another wonderful SpokesAtheist). Crucially, a dialogue should go into the story that many atheists (most, I would argue) were terribly alarmed at supporting this project because of the so-called “ex-gay” therapy, and other church teachings, and what does the pastor of the church(es) have to say about that?

And to reiterate, the vandals also tagged the building with passages about god commanding child slaugher: what I saw on camera were the one from Leviticus about killing children who curse their parents, and one from Exodus that says children should be slaughtered for the sins of their parents/ancestors. It’s a salient point that shouldn’t be ignored.

Over two thousand dollars have been donated to this already. How much can it cost to clean up a couple of graffitis anyway?

Let’s not go overboard with the donations – you know what they are going to do with the extra money, right?

For fuck’s sake.

You are the umpteenth person to not have read Hemant’s actual post.

He said exactly what will be done with the surplus. Go back and read.

@TC

I gotta stop looking at this thread…it’s frustrating me as much as the xtian rhetoric.

Ditto.

Yeah, it did. But where is the logic in getting pissed at the church for being valdalized?Or for something completely unrelated to being valdalized?

What line do they have to cross before it is unacceptable to give them money? They drive children to kill themselves. They teach children to hate themselves. CHILDREN. Do they need to literally push these kids off a cliff before you’ll put your purse away? We are losing innocent children, senselessly. Is this not something to be pissed about?

Where are people getting this “over $2,000 raised already” number? As of my writing the widget says $310.78 has been raised.

Also, people, please learn to read before you criticize. The original post CLEARLY said that any money raised over the base cost to fix the graffiti would be donated to the Foundation Beyond Belief. I am amazed by the lack of reading comprehension of all the people implying that he will just give a check for over $2,000 (wherever that number came from) to a homophobic church and tell then to do with it as they will. Please actually read the post before you fly off the handle with wild accusations.

@Val
I think you misunderstood my point. I never said I wasn’t angry with the church’s anti-gay ministry. I find it quite infuriating. I do not, however, allow my anger to cloud my ability to think it through clearly. The point I failed to make is that these two issues are not related to one another. How many people changed their mind about donating when they found out about this church’s philosophy? The question one must ask him or herself upon reading Hemant’s post is: Should I donate money to help restore this church that was vandalized? The relevant facts are as follows: 1) The church was valdalized 2) The church was apparently valdalized by one of our own. In this case, this makes the church a victim. The church’s ministry is irrelevant and predjudicial. If this was a court of law, a judge would never allow that information to be entered into evidence. If a prositute is raped at knife point, is she any less worthy of receiving restorative justice than the girl next door? Would her lifestyle make her any less of a victim? The beauty of thinking rationally is that it allows one to focus on facts rather than emotions. Yes, this church makes me sick and I will continue to actively find ways to counteract the poison they spew into our communities and families. But doesn’t acting as if they deserved to be victimized, or accepting their status of victim only if I agree with their thinking make me a bigot too? And, I don’t remember anybody saying the money was going to go to the church itself. I understood it as the fund would go to cover the costs incurred by the actual clean up work that needed to be done. Unless building maintenance is somehow anti-gay, again I don’t see the connection.

@Dan,

Where are people getting this “over $2,000 raised already” number? As of my writing the widget says $310.78 has been raised.

This happens with the widget sometimes – it gets stuck. You’ll need to clear your browser cache to see the current amount, which as of this moment, is $2,600 and change.

The church was apparently valdalized by one of our own.

Can you back that up with anything? As has already been noted, the church was also vandalised with biblical quotes, so it’s just as likely to be one of theirs as one of ours.

If you’re pissed off at a church (maybe you’re gay, been forced to attend, and you’re fed up with their casual abuse) what are you going to do to get back at them? Maybe a bit of vandalism? Take the piss? Both?

Just because someone wanted to upset the church folks doesn’t mean they’re an atheist, even if they used atheist imagery to do it.

The relevant facts are as follows: 1) The church was valdalized 2) The church was apparently valdalized by one of our own. In this case, this makes the church a victim. The church’s ministry is irrelevant and predjudicial.

I didn’t see anyone making this point when the WBC’s vehicle’s tires were slashed.

If this was a court of law, a judge would never allow that information to be entered into evidence. If a prositute is raped at knife point, is she any less worthy of receiving restorative justice than the girl next door?

First off, there is no such thing as “restorative justice” for a rape victim. I understand that you’re trying to get at a principle, here, but the comparison fails horribly. Why not use theft, here? Why rape? Totally uncalled for.

Second, my issue with one of the churches involved is that it is actively harming people, and I question whether we should ever help, in any capacity, an organization that we know is causing unnecessary suffering. Prostitution is not comparable. Money is a finite resource, and there are plenty of individuals and organizations who have been wronged, deserve aid, and are making the world a better place rather than a worse one.

In an ideal world, we’d watch the vandals take their seats in court and face the consequences, and Westside would be footing the bill for therapy sessions for the gay congregants it has no doubt traumatized with its message – and I’m quoting from the website, here – that ‘you don’t have to be gay!’

One of these is way more likely to occur than the other.

Hemant and TC have real class and I admire them.
Think of all the times this or that religious group has refused to denounce a co-religionist’s misdeeds because “he is not representative of us.” Hemant is using the incident to sew good-will instead of just saying it’s not our problem. I like how his mind works.

That said, the graffiti was not hateful, just annoying. And I’d be totally not surprised if it was an inside job. In fact, I’d be surprised if it was not an inside job. But for now, we should err on the side of tentatively presuming this was for real.

As to publicizing the fundraising, I say this is an asinine idea. The point is not to play peacock. Again, this is an opportunity to model ethical behavior. Publicity-seeking would defeat the entire purpose and is likely an idea planted by theists.

I wish I had seen this. I personally would NOT give cash. I would however suggest getting a team of Atheists together (wearing A shirts or better yet shirts that specifically say ‘I am an Atheist’) to actually DO the work.

Cash is anonymous – having an actual face behind the good deed sends a far stronger message.

We owe it to ourselves to be able to look in the mirror at the end of the day knowing that we did the right thing even when it was uncomfortable.

As though not donating is shameful? I think not. I’m quite content to look myself in the eye in the mirror over this. I didn’t hold the paint can. I didn’t encourage those responsible to commit the defacement. I can’t even say that I have anything in common with the person who did. I think that the culprit should be brought to justice via the set of laws that are in place. I don’t condone it.

And that is the extent of what I consider appropriate behaviour. Since a number of people here are indignant about this donation being used to Set An Example, I’d like to point out that just me stating that I am against the act of vandalism and would like the culprit to face justice is more than most of those giant religious businesses we call churches have done in similar situations. We’re not talking about people here. We’re talking about a business.

So remind me again why it is my personal responsibility to provide monetary compensation for something that businesses carry insurance for, they are more than able to pay for with the sale of even one widescreen tv to one of their sheep, will likely rake in extra tithes to cover the cost of, and will likely get reimbursed anyway for?

Did it suck to give money to this cause? Yeah, it did.

I refuse to overlook the conclusions of my years of thoughtful observations that have led me to my atheism, even if that means that I may look like an asshole to a group of people who already think I’m an asshole, and “classless” to my fellow atheists. This is me, sticking to my principles.

Never.

Poisoners of minds deserve no empathy.

It would be great if there were any local LGBT organizations listed as well, if they were looking for donations for their activities. I think the greatest good that can be done, now that so much has been raised, would be to support organizations these churches harm through their programs.

I’d rather see the overflow money go to local LGBT rights groups or for pride activities in their town, as well.

I have to go along with those saying no to giving money to the churches. I very much doubt that this will change the minds of the church members about atheist and for some of the members it will actually make them sure it was atheist that did it. I see how much money is wasted by churches on buildings they don’t need and I say let them deal with it like I would if it happened to me.

@ all
Let me start by saying the efforts of Hemant to raise funds for the clean up of our church, as well as, Westside speaks volumes about his character and integrity. We could all learn from his leadership in this. Although he and I do not agree on religion I think we agree that we should all treat each each other as we would like to be treated. This is what Jesus taught His followers we just don’t always get it right!

To all of you who donated let me say thank you for your generosity! Again, we could all learn from this as well.

I have suggested to Hemant that the money that would have come to us be donated to the Red Cross and the Salvation Army for disaster relief efforts. Many people in our nation have had their lives torn apart by the recent tornadoes, floods and fires and they need our help. Please don’t take this as being ungrateful. We just aren’t in need of the funds for the clean-up as it was more a disruption than an expense.

Again, thank you to all for your generosity. Lets all work at treating each other better.

I think the church gets enough money. Maybe it’s just me but I wish they saw this in the same way I see religious symbols in secular forums.

You should read this http://www.dekkerdreyer.com/blog/an-atheists-perspective-on-the-tea-party/ and this http://www.dekkerdreyer.com/blog/ron-paul-and-columbine/ if you ever want to explain how it feels to be an atheist to a christian person. Hemant can go around playing MLK but people like me want a Malcolm X.

Wow. So much conditional generosity.. so much for altruism.. The new golden rule: Do unto to others as they have done unto you, apparently.

ANYTHING you give to a church helps the proselytize.  I would not put it past the church people to have vandelized it themselves for the publicity.