How to Not Attract the Babes

Ah yes, I remember this conversation from Atheist Revolution, http://www.atheistrev.com/2011/02/becoming-more-accessible-to-atheist.html

After the last round about sexism in the community, I don’t know that I have the stomach for more “hysterical, whiny, crying, childish, oversensitive, politically correct” flame-wars.

I’m glad to see that this particular incident was resolved well. Though an up-front apology would have been best I totally understand the knee-jerk instinct to become defensive, so he still gets kudos in my book for coming clean as soon as he had time to think about it with a cool head. I too have noticed the tendency of many atheist men in the online community of mentioning ZOMGitscriss or xxxThePeachxxx andgoing straight to how “hot” they are. AndromedasWake is hot and so is TheoreticalBullshit, but they don’t get that as the main commentary about them. Not that you aren’t allowed to notice or every comment on the attractiveness of someone of a compatible gender (ZOMGitscriss definitely wants you to notice), but it’s telling when this appears to be your chief interest.

Sexism is an issue…? Maybe I just need to hang with the community more. I think the alternative, however, is more extreme. Burkas, anyone…?

I think we will have made progress when it is the men who call out the men for their gross sexist remarks. At present, it appears that this type of criticism falls in the realm of women’s work. I am a man who has been watching this dynamic play out for forty years with little improvement. I was underwhelmed by Eller’s “apology” which apologized for what he said, when it is what he thought that is the problem. It’s easy to change your words, harder to examine and change the way you think.

Sexism is a societal issue, and atheists are part of that greater society. I must say, I think atheist groups do a much better job at calling out sexism than our country as a whole. I think that is largely due to some very informed and well spoken atheists who happen to be women.

With sexism in general I often find it is a “Can’t see the forest for the trees” type situation. A lot of the sexism I experience is only very minor but the there are so many of these small things that it can be quite overwhelming.

That is part of the problem with dismissing the smaller concerns. They are part of a much broader picture and to change this overall trend the smaller issues need to be addressed.

Now granted that I am sure sexism is a bigger problem in the direction of males to females, make no mistake that it happens the other way too. As an (apparently) attractive male, I know what it is like to be treated simply as a sex object through the use of comments at work by female coworkers, inappropriate touches that are not invited and etc. It goes as far as people assuming that I sleep around a lot simply because I am attractive, and making plenty of comments about all the escapades they imagine I get into. People actually spread rumors about me and all these different women that have worked here in the past that I supposedly have had sex with. There is no grain of truth to any of the stories either.

Obviously it is probably not as degrading toward a male as it would be for a female, since in general society would view these sort of things as positive for a male – a man who has sex with a lot of women is often seen positively, women not so much. But regardless, the comments and touching is not welcome and still makes me uncomfortable at work. And all the stupid stories definitely don’t make me feel better about myself.

My point is basically this… people need to be mindful of everyone around them because inappropriate behavior happens all the time and perhaps sometimes people aren’t aware they are doing it or they somehow think that is ok for them to do it when it really is not. Just because you might think that certain attentions toward a person are complimentary does not mean that the person in question will see it the same way. I think there is a lot more to a person than just the way they look and maybe it is a reality that society will base most of their assumptions about someone solely on how they look, but that is definitely not a fair reality in my opinion.

So if sexism in the atheist movement is a big problem (I don’t know because I’m not that involved) then everyone… just think about what you say and do before you do it. Is it really that difficult? And if someone tells you something you are saying or doing is inappropriate or offensive, rather than simply say “you should not be offended/it was meant to be a joke/etc” maybe you should start a dialogue to figure out not just why what you said or did was offensive but to figure out why you didn’t realize it was an inappropriate thing to do?

“Who made that cartoon?? That’s a really cheap shot, not just at male Atheists, but females Atheists, and Atheist groups.” – Joe Zamecki

That comic always has cheap shots in it. It can often be quite racist, too.

Hemant, you should never post that “artist’s” garbage here. But I do think sexism is bad.

Wow, John D. Way to buy into the patriarchal stereotype of feminists.

I’m a modern feminist who has never taken a gender studies class… Stereotype BLOWN.

Yes – some “feminists” are sexist jerks, and some men are sexist jerks. Some women use horrible and derogatory terms like “sexist pig” which is bad for both men and women (and pigs) and some men “man-splain” instead of really thinking about what they said or did and why it was sexist.

Men and women aren’t “against” each other. It isn’t a zero-sum game where any gain by women is a loss for men or vice versa.
Avoiding or being sarcastic about conflicts regarding sex and gender gets us no where. It might be painful and uncomfortable for all of us to recognize our own privileges and accept that other people don’t have those same privileges as we do – but it is one of the only ways for us to create dialogue and generate mutual understanding.

Gee, John D, with an attitude like that, I can’t imagine why anybody would mistake you for a sexist pig. I’m sure it’s all a big misunderstanding on the part of the ‘indoctrinated fem-bots’ and ‘beasts’. They truly are monsters for not accepting your token apology and bulletproof excuse for not changing your behavior. How dare they ask that you actually consider their points or maybe even change your behavior!

John D, for you I’d suggest a preemptive defense, by not typing any comments for them to react to. That’ll guarantee you escape with your life.

I’m a feminist, and I haven’t been indoctrinated by a Women’s Studies course. I’m not even female.

Yawn. This is such a boring issue.

All this hysteria over nothing. I hate political correctness more than anything, and all this walking on eggshells is getting to an extreme level.

I feel SO SORRY for these attractive young people being recognized as such. What a disaster that is.

Oh dear Freemage – I have viewed all the videos and took note of all the comments. One of these “offenses” was actually a case where the man speaking said that a female blogger was “very intelligent and good looking” (I am paraphrasing). The speaker also claimed that the fact that this person is good looking certainly does not hurt their blog popularity. This comment was taken as offensive by some of the self described feminist liberals.

I was quite surprised anyone was offended and viewed the comment and apology three times. Even in the apology the man said “Oh, as I said, this blogger is very intelligent”. He finally wrote a second apology and claimed he was being insensitive and learned the error of his ways. All was forgiven by the liberal feminists. He is now one of the good guys. Witnessing this makes me feel like I am viewing a bunch of aliens at work… so mysterious… so unpredictable…

Perhaps part of the problem is that liberal feminists cannot accept that some women are considered “good looking”. Is it a goal of liberal feminists to claim that looks do not matter? Perhaps. This is a futile and immature goal. Many men will just shut the hell up and keep our thoughts to ourselves. Just be warned, men who are not allowed to share their thoughts and feeling will not make for very good allies.

I really would love to meet with Susan Jacoby (a very accomplished writer in my opinion)… but I will avoid Jen and Greta like the plague. Blog celebrities don’t do much for me I am afraid.

G Monster – I do not think that everyone who calls themselves a feminist is guilt of the crime of hyperbolic political correctness.

I am really tired of a certain group of liberal feminists who relish bashing men while claiming sexism is the reason why more women are not part of the “atheist movement”.

@John,
gotcha

If we say or do something wrong — and I’ll be the first to admit I’m guilty of that — let’s hope it’s unintentional and that the offender is quick to apologize.

I agree 100%. Not one of us is perfect and we can all learn from our mistakes.