Christian Pastor: The Rapture Guy Was Wrong Because He Gave a Specific Date

He doesn’t.

As Sastra put it over at Pharyngula:

It’s like someone telling you that his neighbor put out a trap to catch leprechauns, laughing with you for a bit, shaking their head, and then saying “What a moron! It says right there in the Brothers Grimm that leprechauns can’t be caught.” Suddenly, you realize that no, you’re not on the same wavelength. There’s not much to choose between the guy who’s trying to catch a leprechaun, and the guy who thinks that’s silly because leprechauns are too tricky.

Camping broke the cardinal rule not to claim anything falsifiable. Graham understands this. Graham is just saying that religious people need to be careful to limit their proclamations to stuff that can’t be proven wrong like what is going to happen after you die in some kind of ephemeral spirit world. Anytime religious people get over-ambitious and make proclamations that impinge on the real physical world, they get into trouble because they can be proven wrong. Camping broke that rule. It is not how you play the religious game. Graham called him on it.

Although, it is apparently fair game to pass laws forcing religious interpretations of bible passages on the rest of us. Like no Gay marriage…

P.S. If Camping uses “bible-math” in calculations for a bridge design, that is one bridge I won’t be driving across.

The rapture idea postulates that at least some people will go directly to heaven without having to die first. How do christians who believe in this fantasy reconcile it with Hebrews 9:27? “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.”

*Most people will agree that anyone who claims to have interacted with a deity on earth is crazy.
*Most people believe THEY will interact with a deity after they die.

It’s alarmingly and infuriatingly illogical that so many people think these things.

I’ve always said that about prayer. If I told a believer that I talked to Jesus on the phone this morning, they would scoff at me. Yet somehow, removing the phone from the equation makes the situation perfectly normal.

Mark 13/30 talking of the end times: “Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place.”

It is absolutely clear if your read Mark and Paul, that the end times were expected BACK THEN some 2000 years ago. Guess what, they didn’t happen back them either. The bible is wrong, but just as true believers will try and make the best of Campings predictions, religious people have weaseled their way round things that are clearly erroneous. They generally try to avoid making specific predictions, but that does not make them smarter. After all Camping pulled in millions.

How say we start a campaign demanding that religious have to comply with the same standards as other non-profits, not get a free pass to rip everyone off royally?

Oh well if the bible says that we don’t know the date then it must be true. 🙄

Actually it doesn’t have to be remotely true at all for rather obvious reasons. Some people (OK a lot of people) have just been sold the idea that this book is somehow an authority that governs their lives.

Wrong again.

They need to grow up and start taking responsibility for their own lives rather than look to a book or a fairy tale to do it for them. If they don’t then every con man with a god story to sell is free to fleece the sheeple. FFS isn’t the Camping debacle enough of a wake up call for these people?

Mark 13/30 talking of the end times: “Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place.”

It is absolutely clear if your read Mark and Paul, that the end times were expected BACK THEN some 2000 years ago. Guess what, they didn’t happen back them either.

No doubt some of Jesus’ followers expected Him to return within their lifetimes. But it may not be what Jesus said to them. There are many interpretations of this verse, I’ve always looked at “this generation” as meaning the human race, or the “line” of believers. The below may be a better interpretation, which I just found when I searched the subject, as this forum pushes me to do:

” The Greek verb used in the original text is ??????? (sorry, the Greek font won’t copy over) and is used as an “ingressive aorist.” The same verb is found in all three Synoptics and is translated “takes place” (Matt. 24:34; Mark 13:30; Luke 21:32). As an ingressive aorist it emphasizes the beginning of the action with the meaning “begin to take place.” All those things would begin in that generation and find their ultimate completion at the Second Advent. This fits with the idea of not being deceived by the events mentioned in Matthew 24:4-8. The Lord specifically referred to these as “the beginning of birth pangs”

There are many interpretations of this verse, I’ve always looked at “this generation” in a way that allows me to continue to believe what I want to.

Fixed.

Joel,

Whether the topic is anthropology, astronomy, psychology, or ancient texts, there is always a journey of study, dicovery, digging deeper, and gaining in understanding.

Christianity: Not intended to be a factual statement.

Isn’t a drag that despite being omnipotent and omniscient god still can’t seem to communicate a relatively simple message clearly?

That would be nice.

Blacksheep, That is exactly what I call weaseling. Now the earliest biblical writings as you know are those of Paul. I think this little passage below is where the whole absurd idea of the “rapture” comes from – people being lifted to heaven without dying.

Here Paul is is trying to explain to a congregation how come some faithful Christians have died already before the end times and what happens to them (that part is before this quote but I don’t want to put the whole new testament in here). Note he is talking to one of his congregations when he says “We will not all die”. He clearly thought the end times were coming while some of those he was writing to, and including himself (WE) would still be alive. Within the context of what he was writing and why, there is no way he was talking about two thousand years down the road. But you can weasel around this one too I am sure.

Paul Cointhians 15/ 50 What I am saying, brothers and sisters,* is this: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I will tell you a mystery! We will not all die, but we will all be changed, 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed

By the way I don’t think the word rapture occurs in the new testament but I am not a scholar, so not one hundred percent sure. I wonder if they meant ruptured? Just on a statistical basis I am sure many were ruptured on the 21st. Maybe they got the word wrong.

@Blacksheep, Most of us here were Christians for years and have already investigated all the possible ways to interpret a verse when it obviously states something that disturbed, puzzled or embarrassed us as Christians. You’re talking to informed Ex Apologists here.

I know you mean well, but honestly, if there were a god, don’t you think that he would be capable of contacting us each directly to explain away any doubts? If you believe that a god can hear and respond to everyone’s prayers personally, why would he need a middle man (you) to go around making excuses/interpreting for him?

How do you expect to convince us that we should vote for an invisible candidate whose last attributed appearance was 2,000 years ago? If such a candidate exists, he needs to rethink his campaign strategy.

@blacksheep: Paul is so certain that Jesus is returning within his generation that he urges his followers to abstain from sex. As far as Paul is concerned, there won’t be a next generation. Playing around with Greek verb tenses is just dodging the issue.

That’s why I said that some of his followers thought he was returning within their lifetimes.

There are many paths up the mountainside. What is meaningful to me will not be meaningful to someone else. I have my own experience. And it seems real. It seems meaningful. I was raised by a Christian evolutionary biologist — I understand the problem of reconciling the how with the why. But the explanation that we’re here “just cause” doesn’t satisfy me. As for hearing God speak — I hear it everyday. Yesterday, I was praying that my mom who cares for her elderly parents would not feel bitter when her sister in law who lives out of town and does not understand the challenges she faces is critical of her. And God said “It starts with you.” Clear as day, the thought entered my mind and I tell you that was not my thought. What he was saying is that I shouldn’t enable my mom to be bitter, but point out that she has chosen her current life state — old inlaws and all. Anyway — that means nothing to you, but it means something to me. This is how Christians experience a personal God. In quiet closets with clear minds. I may have just cast my pearls before swine, but there you have it. I’m not an idiot and I’m not crazy and I accept that the natural me that came from pond scum must first and foremost overcome my biology (die to myself) and replace my natural will with God’s will. I have to do this everyday. It’s the choice I made to walk with Christ. I’m not perfect because I’m a Christian, but because of Christ.

@JSug,

They would only need to reinterpret scripture yet another time to get around that problem. Kind-of like in Life of Brian when Brian says he is not the Messiah (after everybody has been chanting that he is) and Brian says “I am NOT the messiah“. And some woman says “Only the true messiah denies his divinity“. Brian then say. “OK, I AM the messiah“. And everybody yells in unison “He IS the messiah!“. Kind of like that.

@Blacksheepette and @Blacksheep,
Are you two different people or the same person? If different people, you should associate avatar images with your email addresses so we can more easily tell you two apart.

And God said “It starts with you.” Clear as day, the thought entered my mind and I tell you that was not my thought. … This is how Christians experience a personal God.

Yep. They interpret their own thoughts as speaking to a god. Tell us something we didn’t already know.

@Blacksheep,

Good, I want to soon see an image of a Blacksheep for your avatar and hopefully a blacksheep with a pretty bow on its head for Blacksheepette 😉

@Sailor,

It sounds like you have had time to do some good thinking while out on your boat.

“I may have just cast my pearls before swine, but there you have it.”

Well, at least we know what you think of us.

Tell us something we didn’t already know.

Here is something you might not know because you mostly just talk to each other and have fiercer convictions than most religious folks. Atheism is the philosophy of glorifying sarcasm.

The logical and scientific view of God should be that anything that may or may not exist outside of our space and time cannot be studied using the scientific method (save analysis and discussion) and therefore we cannot conclude that there certainly is or is no God. Atheism is as illogical as theism from the scientific perspective. Therefore, all religious / spiritual experience is personal. And as I said, my evidence will not convince anyone but me because it is meant for me. I certainly know the difference between my ideas and someone else’s ideas, though. Perhaps that is how it should be — I don’t think God wants dumb oatmeal cookies, but free willed sentient life. The universe is probably teeming with this precious resource just far enough apart to prevent most fights.

I guess it’s because you can’t “technically” prove that the world isn’t going to end. You can prove that it’s not going to end on a specific date by just waiting until that date, but if you don’t put a specific date on it, you can still always say, “Well, it OBVIOUSLY hasn’t happened yet. Just keep waiting, though. It totally will in the future.” It’s sort of like when you assign homework that is due at some point in the future: we both know nobody’s going to do it unless their grade is borderline. But until you assign a specific due date and that due date passes, you can’t PROVE we aren’t planning to do it.

Blacksheep, I think you’re beginning to like it around here. One of us?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBXyB7niEc0

One more thing: doesn’t young William understand that just because Grandpa was a great preacher doesn’t mean he’s got to take up the mantle? Billy Graham’s son is keeping the name alive (however poorly).

Harold Camping a brilliant engineer? you gotta be kidding me right?

If he’s such a brilliant engineer, I’m glad he didn’t build anything because it wouldn’t last.

Jesus isn’t coming back, for the simple reason that he likely never existed to begin with. There’s still no historical evidence that Jesus was anything more than a myth. It’s part amusing and part sad to see religious people arguing over which interpretations of their particular brand of nonsense are correct.

@Jeff P: Camping broke the cardinal rule not to claim anything falsifiable.

This really is the crux of it. The other fundies are furious because he’s forced them to confront, even if only momentarily, the house of cards upon which their belief system is founded. It’s the worst thing you can to to an addictive personality; they’ll never forgive you for it. Also, he’s subjected them to even more ridicule from the godless heathens, and they’re insecure enough as it is.

Meanwhile, this is the first I’ve heard of Will Graham. The Grahams, the Swaggarts, the Copelands – these evangelical ministries have all turned into family businesses, some of them being into their third generation. I don’t know if it demonstrates my contention that it’s an inheritable neurological disorder, or if it simply attests to the power of money.

I had a vision from God last night and was divinely inspired to write down the revelations which I will now call the new scripture of the third covenant. This revelation is that God is displeased with what Christianity has become and He has decided to only send to heaven people (regardless of prior beliefs) who have performed a simple demonstration of worthiness. People are to wear a red hat and hop three times on your left foot while flapping your arms like a chicken while making chirping sounds. All people who do not do this will go to hell. The revelations end with the statement that these revelations are true and no person can add or delete from them (or great personal misfortune will result).

The skeptic may ask where is the evidence for this new religion. Just point to the new scripture of the third covenant that I just spoke of. The skeptic may ask how do you know that this scripture is true? Because it says so right towards the end. The skeptic may spout about circular reasoning but I can tell you that you must have faith. The skeptic may say God is not fair in that He denies salvation to those that can’t physically perform the worthiness demonstration. Well, everybody knows that God hates amputees. Besides, he works in mysterious ways.

Now, how is this any different (in principle) than Christianity (or any other religion)?

P.S. chirp, chirp, chirp

The only difference is in the numbers of people who believe it.

Why is it that none of these goofs who try to predict the end of the world ever notice that in the oldest gospel, which based on historical basis is generally more reliable than the other gospels that were written later. Also, has any of these goofs ever asked themselves why Jesus was fervently preaching to his followers to prepare for the arrival of God’s Kingdom, if it wasn’t supposed to happen until thousands of years later? I hear quotes from a later gospel that Jesus stated that even he doesn’t know the exact time, but in Mark 9:1, he doesn’t give the exact time. What he does do is tell those he is preaching to that some of them will not taste death until they see his Father arrive in glory in His Kingdom. I.e., it was supposed to happen back then. Since it did not, that leaves only one possibility and that is that Jesus was just another failed prophet. Jesus even told this to the high priest. Yet, all these birds ignore that. But it means that if it didn’t happen then, then Jesus was wrong and not the son of God, and, therefore, there is not going to be an end of the world brought on by a god.