Reporters Witness a Christian Pastor Molesting Women at Demon-Banishing Service

Religion can give you license to do some awful things but this is just despicable.

The Incredible Happenings Ministry in South Africa recently held a “demon banishing” service. It appears that it was really just an excuse to molest and abuse young women.

Two reporters were there conducting a two-month investigation of the church in question (as well as its leaders). Besides discovering proof that “prophet” Paseka Motsoeneng is a complete fraud, they gave an account of certain sexual acts they saw at his service. It’s graphic and possibly disturbing for some of you:

Sitting on the lap of a female congregant, Motsoeneng placed his hand on the head of a 17 year-old teen, who cannot be identified due to her age, and started praying for her.

Motsoeneng told the congregants her tummy had swelled up because some sorcerers had cast an evil spell on her.

As he was praying for her she collapsed. Motsoeneng then told the teenager, who was lying on her back, to open her legs, which she did.

He then plunged his fingers into her private parts and started moving his fingers inside her vagina.

As he was busy with his “healing process”, Motsoeneng ordered her to call him by his nickname, Mboro.

“Say Mboro,” he ordered her.

“Mboro” she said, with a stifled cry.

What. The. Hell…

This man is a monster. Obviously. And he’s getting away with it because he’s working “on behalf of god.” But it’s also disturbing that, because of that status, everyone surrounding this poor girl just sat back and let this all happen! How much of a stronghold must religion have on these people that they’ll sit back while something awful happens right in front of them?! It’s sickening.

And this girl wasn’t his only victim:

… Mboro called another young woman to the stage and made her lie down.

The young woman, who was not asked to identify herself, was told to tell the packed hall what her problem was.

“I haven’t slept with my husband for some time because it hurts when we make love.

“Every time he penetrates me, it feels like he is cutting me with a sharp knife,” she said.

Mboro took off his shoes and placed his foot on her vagina.

“There’s something breathing in her biscuit. It feels like a heartbeat,” he said.

He later ordered the woman to take off her undies. She complied. He said he wanted to “stitch it with his holy water”.

Motsoeneng sprinkled water on his right hand and rubbed the woman’s genitals.

He ordered her to call her husband “with all the nice words in the book of love and tell him she would discharge her conjugal rights”.

The husband was ok with all this… because this was God’s work at play.

(Also, please never call it a “biscuit.”)

Wait. One more victim:

He called another young girl whom he accused of having been a Satanist who conjured up evil spirits. He asked his helpers to undress her and check if her vagina was wet.

After examining her they said she was dry. He asked the congregation whether he should expel her but they begged him to forgive her.

This is a guy who rakes in lots of cash by claiming to help people… but actually does nothing for them. He’s a con artist.

The reporters tried contacting him with no luck:

Motsoeneng did not return our calls or acknowledge receipt of our correspondence.

As a result of Sunday World’s probe, Soweto TV said it would launch an investigation to establish if people who claimed to have been miraculously healed by Motsoeneng are telling the truth.

I don’t know what we can do from here, but a lot of these churches in Africa have ties to an American church. Maybe some pastor has a connection to this guy and can put a stop to this.

(Thanks to @JulienLynn for the link)

Muxika

He looks like a scumbag, too. A machete is too good for this guy, fingering women in front of everybody. He is a monster.
Nakor

I don’t even know what to say. It makes me sick that this happens, but even worse is that it’s being enabled. It doesn’t exactly take much brain power to see that this was sexual abuse. But instead what they’re going to investigate is whether or not it has healing powers?! Even if they DO eventually get around to deciding that it’s all BS, how many more women get hurt in the mean time!? Besides, didn’t the reporters have the proof already? Somehow I doubt they’ll even find the evidence they’re ‘looking for.’

Damnit.
WMDKitty

What the… this is… I don’t… but he… FUCK.
Gwydion Frost

Wow. He’s just a dozen victims shy of having his own kool-aid serving religious compound!
TiltedHorizon

I normally use satire and mockery in my posts but this one is simply too disturbing to warrant ridicule.

How loud does ‘faith’ have become to completely silence common sense? How can such extreme abuse not raise suspicion? Is there no atrocity a ‘faithful’ person can witness that will elicit disgust?
Matt H

This wouldn’t make any Christians I know rethink their theology, but they would condemn it and write it off as a crazy fringe group (i.e. “they aren’t true Christians”).
Gwydion Frost

http://thirdworldnetwork.org/forum/MGalleryItem.php?id=144
Gwydion Frost

Smells like Holy Spirit

Worth seeing…
Matt Foss

This… this is the most disgusting thing I’ve read in months.

I think it’s even worse than the molestations committed by Catholic priests – this was done in the open with a crowd of onlookers, who allowed it to happen because they believed it’s God’s work.
Claudia

This is awful, but it doesn’t even approach the horrors visited upon Africas “witch children” in Jeebus name.
LeAnne

wow, really? wow.
Ed

Seems like the dirtbag has a good thing going, don’t be jealous.
Larry Meredith

I’m actually not surprised seeing as how this is coming from Africa… don’t Christians there burn people alive for witchcraft?
Julien

When I saw it on Twitter I was enraged. I’m from South Africa and this guy makes me want to puke; I’m embarrassed to share this country with him. What really pisses me off is that the article was written BEFORE the police were contacted. The newspaper should have contacted the police, ESPECIALLY because minors are involved, and then written a story condemning him.

And Larry, yes, in central Africa (namely DRC) little kids are often killed (more often abandoned at orphanages) because their parents think they are witches. BBC Africa did a great series on it in 2007.

And this freak has his own TV show?!?! Ugh. Go to his “church” website and send him hate mail, please!
cbc

In all seriousness, that guy’s fingernails are LONG. OUCH.

The whole thing makes me nauseous. Absolutely sick with rage.

From their website: “Through faith people are healed from different illnesses such as those that affect Vuvuzelas (males organs), Biscuits (female organs), pains, rush, sores and other sickness. Even more miracles happen in this church where people have been healed from giving birth to snakes, snails and other creatures. Through the power of the Lord even more miracles are happening in every service where evil spirits, bad luck and other unholy forces are defeated and cast away.”

I know it’s counterintuitive to say, but they seem extra-crazy. He seems to be a spiritual gyno or something. Ick.
elricthemad

Has anyone heard of anything like this happening:

“OK, I have no spiritual or supernatural authority. I have no power over you aside from that which you consciously give to me. Understand? Good, now I will do terrible things to you.”

My point is, no one does anything despicable like this in the name of the absence of god. Ugh. Richard Dawkins was right; moderate religious believers give sanctuary and succor to insane cruelty such as this with their inaction and silence. I am just disgusted by this.
Blacksheep

My point is, no one does anything despicable like this in the name of the absence of god.

That is a profoundly incorrect statement, and shows very little knowledge of history. (No need even to expound).

(By the way, If any atheists here want to put a posse together to go to Africa and kick that guys ass, I’m in. You’ll need a token Christian for the full effect).
Susi

This pastor is no different than the sexual deviants exposed in the catholic church and other churches. They use their position of power, easily given to them by the brain-washed masses, to effectively get their rocks off to the detriment of those trusting them. First, he and anyone else who can do this is a sick human being. No, I take that back, he isn’t a human being. There is no word horrific enough for this scumbag. Second, WAKE UP SHEEP! It’s all about power, control, corruption and money. Stop giving them the power!
Bronwyn

Blacksheep says:
That is a profoundly incorrect statement, and shows very little knowledge of history. (No need even to expound).

Bullshit. Don’t even go there, and fall back on the Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao excuses. These guys did plenty of evil, but it was in the name of their own regimes, and the desire to deify themselves; religion got in the way of absolute power; so they tried to get rid of it. None did it in the name of atheism.

I have yet to see an atheist perform the sick acts of the above mentioned in the name of no supernatural beings.

Now I need a sick-bag.
Steve

Yes, there is no need to expound because we know exactly what you are implying.

What Bronwyn said is exactly right. Religion was simply competition and/or opposition for these regimes. Stalin in particular wanted people to worship him. Very literally.
Nordog

None did it in the name of atheism.

I think this to be technically true. However, I also think it true that those atheists mentioned it did those terrible things in the name of the state which becomes the pseudo-god as highest power in the communist/atheist cosmology.

In other words, they did it in the name of an ideology, which was, by definition, an ideology that included atheism.

Not much better imo.

Hope you feel better soon.
Annie

Where were these children’s mothers??? And fathers??? I don’t care if someone came down from the heavens right in front of me… I still wouldn’t let him, her, it, etc. touch my child like that. That is the scariest part of all this… not the act, but that fact that people are so taken in to this craziness that they will sit back and watch it happen. The only thing worse than a psychopath is a brazen one.
Dakota Bob

To use a term many Psychologists use, this guy is ABSOLUTELY INSANE. HE IS MENTAL.
Nordog

What the… this is… I don’t… but he… FUCK.

Actually, imo, when it comes to commentary on this subject, WMDKitty has offered perfection.
Bronwyn

Nordog says:
In other words, they did it in the name of an ideology, which was, by definition, an ideology that included atheism.

Not much better imo.

Hope you feel better soon.

Bollocks. You’re talking in circles. Communism formed from ideas people thought up. Religion came up from… oh, sorry..

It’s still the same.

Torture and rape are BAD things, and one cannot excuse them with the voice of religion.

And I feel fine.
anon

I’m not sure which I want to do worst: Puke, or cut of both of his hands with a rusty machete….

Somebody try that with one of my family members or friends and they’d end up being composted.
WMDKitty

@Nordog — Thank you, I think.
outre

This makes me feel sick. The people of that community must free themselves from the tyranny of religious extremism. Perhaps this article will give them the courage and the vision to act.
Anonymous

I’m not sure which I want to do worst: Puke, or cut of both of his hands with a rusty machete….

I would go with “puke,” cause this machete bloodlust is really a nauseating, dehumanizing stance to take.
littlejohn

I find this very hard to believe. A religious nut who molested … WOMEN?
That never happens.
Jynx

@elricthemand and Nordog and Blacksheep:

I’m willing to go even further and say that it is impossible for anyone to commit any act (evil or otherwise) because of atheism.

Atheism contains absolutely no prescription for behavior and no ethical or political framework. It answers one question and one question only: “Do you believe in god(s)?”

Any other question, including “How did you come to that conclusion?” requires other philosophical positions to come into play.
hoverfrog

I’m not surprised. Religions seem to be rife with abusers looking for gullible victims.
Nordog

I’m willing to go even further and say that it is impossible for anyone to commit any act (evil or otherwise) because of atheism.

Any act? You mean like start a blog, or found an organization dedicated to freedom from religion, or file a legal action to protect constituional rights, or establish clubs for students, et cetera?

Your point may, perhaps, possess a certain rhetorical charm, but in the end it is, well, silly. To persist in the notion is either willful distortion, or irrational.
Blacksheep

Atheism contains absolutely no prescription for behavior and no ethical or political framework. It answers one question and one question only: “Do you believe in god(s)?”

That’s what I thought. Among other things, this is something that has been made more clear to me on this forum. That’s why it always seems odd when someone says something like, “Nobody does bad theings in the name of atheism.” Makes no sense.

However, (get your sick bag ready Bronwyn) history has proven that while societies who claim to be based on Christianity commit evil acts, it pales astronomically to the almost unlimited evil heaped upon gullible victims by societies who claim to be based on atheism/humanism.

And the difference is so terribly vast between the two that it bears looking at and asking why.

In my opinion, belief in a divive being and in absolute right and wrong provides a safety valve, while the lack thereof does not.

And blaming religion for parents allowing their children to be abused is ridiculous. Things like that are caused by fear, weakness, and ignorance, and can be found in other forms in every society in one form or another.

Annie hit it dead on:

Where were these children’s mothers??? And fathers??? I don’t care if someone came down from the heavens right in front of me… I still wouldn’t let him, her, it, etc. touch my child like that. That is the scariest part of all this… not the act, but that fact that people are so taken in to this craziness that they will sit back and watch it happen. The only thing worse than a psychopath is a brazen one.
Svlad Cjelli

Really, there’s something like a heartbeat inside a human? Well, it must be magic, then.
CanadianNihilist

Sadly none of this surprises me. I’m even less surprised by Blacksheep and Nordog trolling this topic.

As far as I know (from reading their posts) they’re religious. But It looks like they both condone this guys behavior. That part is a little surprising actually. I guess if someones in the same club as you they can do no wrong.
ACN

You’re right Blacksheep, the Soviet Union, North Korea, Nazi Germany, and China’s problem is that there is too much skepticism, too much freethinking, and far too much of evidence based reasoning. Entirely too many questions are being asked, and if we could replace all of this excess thinking with dogmatic belief in divine magic then we’d certainly be on the right track.

*eyeroll*
ACN

Whoa Canadian, I’m pretty sure neither Nordog or Blacksheep condone’d this guy. In fact:

Blacksheep said:

(By the way, If any atheists here want to put a posse together to go to Africa and kick that guys ass, I’m in. You’ll need a token Christian for the full effect).
CanadianNihilist

I stand corrected.
I must of missed that sentence in their Atheism causes evil ramblings.
Blacksheep

Sadly none of this surprises me. I’m even less surprised by Blacksheep and Nordog trolling this topic.

I’ve been on this forum for over a year, engaged in many great conversations. If I am trolling this topic, then so are you. (You must be one of those who categorize disenting voices as trolls – do you really want to sit around and pat other atheists on the back for agreeing with you?).

As far as I know (from reading their posts) they’re religious. But It looks like they both condone this guys behavior. That part is a little surprising actually. I guess if someones in the same club as you they can do no wrong

.
Seriously? Either you don’t read or you are just being a jackass on purpose. I don’t mind being crticized for my faith, but this is different. And the fact that this guy says he is a Christian makes it ten times worse (for me). trust me, if this were happening around me I would suspend the “love thy enemy” creed until after he was taken care of.
Blacksheep

You’re right Blacksheep, the Soviet Union, North Korea, Nazi Germany, and China’s problem is that there is too much skepticism, too much freethinking, and far too much of evidence based reasoning. Entirely too many questions are being asked, and if we could replace all of this excess thinking with dogmatic belief in divine magic then we’d certainly be on the right track.

I never said it made sense – just that it happened!
Blacksheep

I stand corrected.
I must of missed that sentence in their Atheism causes evil ramblings.

Funny what one can miss.
Nordog

I stand corrected.
I must of missed that sentence in their Atheism causes evil ramblings.

Yes, it’s obvious that you have missed much here, but you haven’t let that prevent you from filling the void of your attention with your presumptions.

Regarding my opinion of this guy in South Africa, cf. my comment on WMDKitty’s posting. (WMDKitty, it was meant as both a compliment and an endorsement.)

Regarding atheism causing evil; didn’t say that and don’t believe that.

Regarding your charge of trolling, Freud called that “projection”.

I realize that being a nihilist doesn’t necessarily make one a rational freethinker, but you really should at least give it a try.
Blacksheep

CanadianNihilist,

Just for the heck of it, I looked up the definition of nihilism. This is the Wikipedia definition:

“Most commonly, nihilism is presented in the form of existential nihilism which argues that life is without objective meaning, purpose, or intrinsic value.[1] Moral nihilists assert that morality does not inherently exist, and that any established moral values are abstractly contrived.”

If you agree with the above ststement, (I would be angry too if I believed that, by the way) then you are in no position to judge anyone – including the evil preacher in Africa. Who says that your abstractly contrived view of morality is better than evil preacher’s?

That being said, I submit that you may not agree with the above definition. You also may have found a way to layer moral behavior onto a universe in which you don’t believe it exists.
Anna

Blacksheep,

However, (get your sick bag ready Bronwyn) history has proven that while societies who claim to be based on Christianity commit evil acts, it pales astronomically to the almost unlimited evil heaped upon gullible victims by societies who claim to be based on atheism/humanism.

I’m sorry, but this is just ridiculous. Based on atheism? Where are these societies that claim to be based on atheism? Every totalitarian dictatorship I’ve ever heard of has been based on political ideology. And you’re really claiming that “unlimited evil” only comes from societies with atheist leaders? Hitler was no atheist. He and his loyal followers carried out their unspeakable acts in Christian Germany. If anything can be described as “unlimited evil,” surely the Holocaust qualifies.

The world has seen many genocides carried out by people with a strong belief in the supernatural. It seems incredibly odd to assert that Christianity (or any other religion) somehow makes totalitarian dictators less likely to slaughter others. Even if they’re not killing in the name of their religion, they’re killing in order to further their political agenda. Those actions are identical for both theist and atheist leaders. Atheism was not the driving force behind Stalin’s actions anymore than theism was the driving force behind Hitler’s. Their beliefs about the supernatural neither caused nor prevented their actions. They carried out those actions for personal and political gain.
ACN

I never said it made sense – just that it happened!

If this is your understanding of the states/empires/regimes that I mentioned then I don’t know what further we have to talk about this issue.

I assume that when you reference:

societies who claim to be based on atheism/humanism.

You mean states/empires/regimes like the ones that I mentioned. Can you honestly say that you think the soviet totalitarianism under Stalin was characterized by a glut of skepticism and evidence based reasoning? It was a cult of personality, in many ways no different than a theocracy, where the center of worship was Stalin.

I think that you’re taking the terms “atheism”, “state mandated atheism”, “humanism” and “totalitarianism”, putting them all in a blender, and hitting “frappe” without thinking very carefully about the salient features of any of the regimes you want to stand in opposition to.
Anna

Bronwyn,

Don’t even go there, and fall back on the Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao excuses.

Not that it even matters, but while Pol Pot did not believe in a god, he did believe in the supernatural.

“Pol Pot does not believe in God but he thinks that heaven, destiny, wants him to guide Cambodia in the way he thinks it the best for Cambodia, that is to say, the worst. Pol Pot is mad, you know, like Hitler.” – Prince Norodom Sihanouk

Of course, it’s irrelevant, but it raises an interesting question. Why doesn’t anyone ever blame the atrocities of dictators on their belief in the supernatural? If Stalin’s and Mao’s atheism is blamed for their atrocities, can’t Pol Pot’s belief in heaven and destiny also be blamed?
Nordog

Anna, I think the blaming of atrocities on the belief of the supernatural happens rather frequently, actually.
ACN

This back and forth reminded me of a dicussion me and Robert W and Claudia and some others had a while back.
older thread
Anna

Nordog,

Anna, I think the blaming of atrocities on the belief of the supernatural happens rather frequently, actually.

Really? Of course there are atrocities that are carried out in the name of a particular religion (the Inquisition, the Crusades, etc.), but when they aren’t carried out in the name of a religion, and the perpetrator happens to have a belief in the supernatural, I haven’t seen that belief blamed for the atrocity. Augusto Pinochet, for example, carried out a genocide in Chile. He was also Catholic, but I haven’t seen Catholicism blamed for his actions. People (correctly) point to his political goals, not his belief in the supernatural as the basis of his totalitarian regime.
Blacksheep

The world has seen many genocides carried out by people with a strong belief in the supernatural. It seems incredibly odd to assert that Christianity (or any other religion) somehow makes totalitarian dictators less likely to slaughter others. Even if they’re not killing in the name of their religion, they’re killing in order to further their political agenda. Those actions are identical for both theist and atheist leaders. Atheism was not the driving force behind Stalin’s actions anymore than theism was the driving force behind Hitler’s. Their beliefs about the supernatural neither caused nor prevented their actions. They carried out those actions for personal and political gain.

So let’s agree not to blame theism or atheism for atrocities.
Blacksheep

You mean states/empires/regimes like the ones that I mentioned. Can you honestly say that you think the soviet totalitarianism under Stalin was characterized by a glut of skepticism and evidence based reasoning? It was a cult of personality, in many ways no different than a theocracy, where the center of worship was Stalin.

I think that you’re taking the terms “atheism”, “state mandated atheism”, “humanism” and “totalitarianism”, putting them all in a blender, and hitting “frappe” without thinking very carefully about the salient features of any of the regimes you want to stand in opposition to.

Maybe I am unfairly lumping them together. And I shouldn’t have said “based on” atheism. More accurately, the official state sponsored religions of Communist Russia, China, North korea, and Cambodia (under Pol Pot) were atheist. Whether they characterized it as you do (“skeptisism, evidence based reasoning, etc) is beside the point – they wanted to ban religion and belief in God.
ACN

If I may, I do not think it is beside the point at all! In fact, this is the point I was making!

I am an atheist. But I did not wake up one morning and decide that the atheist ideology was superior to the theist ideology and thus I would not believe in gods. Atheism, to me, is the end result of building up my view of the world on skepticism, evidence based reasoning, and caring about whether the beliefs I hold map back to reality in a testable way. As an atheist, it isn’t my goal to make everyone around me an atheist. I think everyone would be better off if they stopped believing in magical nonsense and chose to ground their beliefs in reality, but the goal isn’t to push an ideology on you. The goal is to push good thinking, as I am confident that that is where my conclusion on the god question arises from.

I absolutely agree with you on what the state sponsored religion of these various regimes were. But equating the ideology of totalitarianism and state mandated belief systems with a person who is advocating skepticism and evidence based reasoning doesn’t make any sense.

That’s why I say that I think you’re ignoring the salient features of these regimes. As I’ve quoted previously from “The God that Failed” (wiki article about book)

Communist absolutists did not so much negate religion, in societies that they well understood were saturated with faith and superstition, as seek to replace it. The solemn elevation of infallible leaders who were a source of endless bounty and blessing; the permanent search for heretics and schismatics; the mummification of dead leaders as icons and relics; the lurid show trials that elicited incredible confessions by means of torture…none of this was was very difficult to interpret in traditional terms. Nor was the hysteria during times of plague and famine, when the authorites unleashed a mad search for any culprit but the real one. Nor was the ceaseless invocation of the a “Radiant Future”, the arrival of which would one day justify all crimes and dissolve all petty doubts…

These people gleefully exploited the fact that supernatural beliefs and superstitious institutions had tilled the ground that they treaded on. People like Stalin didn’t come into power and then maniacally giggle about how they’d finally done it, they could now force non-belief in deities on everyone! What a perfectly ridiculous picture to paint. Stalin sought to build himself into something of a living god. Part of that process was the elimination of competing religious figures like the orthodox church, but make no mistake, Stalin did not want critical thinking or evidence based reasoning. He wanted dogmatic adherence to to his own twisted religion.
Jeff P

BlackSheep says: So let’s agree not to blame theism or atheism for atrocities.

It is a classification problem to place atheism at the same level as any particular theism (like Christianity). Theism simply means a belief in interacting God(s) in the world. Atheism simply means a lack of belief in god(s).

A subset of Theists believe that God can reveal knowledge to them and that this revealed knowledge can supersede the morals of society. If this “revealed” knowledge (or commands from God) are on the line of “kill all Jews” or “touch women’s vaginas in church”, then I would say that the particular brand of theism was partly causal in the bad behavior. I wouldn’t say that theism in general was causal. Just that the brand of theism that believes in revealed knowledge lends itself to be abused.

If an atheist did some bad behavior, I would be hard pressed to blame the bad behavior on the atheism. It would most likely be due to some added framework in the person’s mind. Atheism could only be a characteristic of the framework… but not causal for the bad behavior. For example, if there was someone who didn’t have any morals and thought they could kill indiscriminately (and they were also an atheist), the bad behavior would be because they didn’t have any morals and thought they could kill indiscriminately. The fact that the person was an atheist would be besides the point. There are plenty of well-behaving moral atheists.
Bronwyn

Late to come back to the party. Had to work.

I wish I had all the time in the world to study every society, but i can only manage an overview for the most part, which is much more than the knee-jerkers who like to proclaim atheism is the problem.

It’s not, so much as self-deification by self-aggrandizing leaders, and YOU WILL DIE if you disagree, whether you are sick-fuck one or two. It’s about power over, and that usually has some kind of repression involved. To point at these kinds of regimes and bleat that it was all due to atheism is false. It was about consolidating power, and making the people act the way you want by force and threat. I don’t find new (or Gnu) atheists wanting to do this, and I find the argument old and full of holes.

Oh, and thanks for your advice for me t get a new sickbag; your concern is noted.

I get sick every time someone tries to prop up everything from religion to stupid new age crap instead of good medicine and government based on superstition like the OP. I get sick when I hear about children being mutilated or burned because they are witches; check it out on youtube. I get sick when I hear government meetings in my country (USA) start with a prayer.

I don’t need a bag other than the figurative kind.

You want a world filled with superstition and fallacy? It will be a bad world to live in. I want a world based on reality, and kindness to my fellow humans and reason. I think we can do it but it won’t be easy.
Anna

Blacksheep,

So let’s agree not to blame theism or atheism for atrocities.

But that’s exactly what you did by asserting that Christian atrocities “pale astronomically” in comparison to the ones perpetrated by atheists. Genocide is genocide. It can have a religious basis, but in most totalitarian regimes of the 20th century, the dictators’ religious beliefs have been entirely beside the point. It wouldn’t have mattered if Hitler had been Muslim or if Pol Pot had been Catholic because their belief in the supernatural was not the reason they killed people. They murdered others in order to further their political goals.

I find it particularly galling for you to assert that the worst atrocities were carried out by atheists, especially considering Christianity’s sickeningly bloody history. There’s plenty of “ultimate evil” in that history, and only a revisionist would claim otherwise. Christians may have supernatural beliefs, but those beliefs do not seem to have ever stopped them from carrying out horrific acts. In many cases, they carried out torture and murder in the name of their deity. It would be unfair to blame all genocide on religion, but to assert that Christianity somehow makes for “kinder and gentler” oppressors flies in the face of everything we know about actual history.
Blacksheep

You want a world filled with superstition and fallacy? It will be a bad world to live in. I want a world based on reality, and kindness to my fellow humans and reason. I think we can do it but it won’t be easy.

You’re right – it won’t be easy. One could begin by looking at the underlying beliefs of societies on earth that have the highest degree of kindness to fellow human beings.
Blacksheep

I find it particularly galling for you to assert that the worst atrocities were carried out by atheists, especially considering Christianity’s sickeningly bloody history.

You need to actually read the thread to see how the conversation evolved. My point, which I clarified, is that the greatest amount of evil done to the greatest number of human beings has happened within societies who hold atheism to be their national religion – whether it is officially stated as in Stalinist Russia or backed up by government enforcement like killing priests, jailing people who distribute Bibles (Like N Korea), etc.

I never said that the worst atrocities were “carried out by atheists” – it was always about atheist societies.

And by the way, if you are making the point that leaders ban religion because it takes power away from themselves, we agree! They hate anything more powerful than they are.
Anna

Blacksheep,

You need to actually read the thread to see how the conversation evolved. My point, which I clarified, is that the greatest amount of evil done to the greatest number of human beings has happened within societies who hold atheism to be their national religion

I did read the thread, and your assertion is exactly what I am disputing. I would say the “greatest amount of evil” is not limited to body count, although you’re obviously pointing to that as a way to discredit “atheist” societies. The leaders of some of these societies may have been atheists, but they did not kill in the name of atheism. They killed in order to further their political agenda. You seem to ignore the fact that one of the most infamous dictatorships, indeed, perhaps the most evil regime of all, came to power in Germany. The Holocaust is notable because it happened in a Christian society in the 20th century and was carried out by people who were most definitely not atheists.

I never said that the worst atrocities were “carried out by atheists” – it was always about atheist societies.

There is no such thing as an “atheist society.” I defy you to find one country on earth in which belief in the supernatural was completely eradicated by a totalitarian dictator. There have only been dictators who sought to eradicate religion because it conflicted with their political power grab. Of course, those same dictators have always been happy to collude with religious authorities if it suits their interests (see Hitler, Pinochet, etc.) but if not, they are only too happy to eliminate their rivals. It’s a matter of politics, not religion.
Madzibaba

Iam a Zimbabwean and the word “mboro” means penis.Why is that pastor giving himself a bad nickname and he does is related to his nickname.
brian

Mboro is a shona word for penis
bitter medicine

1Co 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumbling block, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
i thank God that our lord Jesus was not born in America. it is high time that MBHORO must fly. the world is used to hate and blaspheme the prophets, it is just like in the times of Moses and Pharaoh. God will mightily use his anointed one and at the same time HE will harden the hearts of them that do not believe.
Narejames

In the name of the Father…the Creator and in the Son…my Redeemer… and the Holy Spirit…sent to make us holy people, with the ability to resist evil in the world, I now declare all these evil spiritual Businesses a Lethal injection to our spiritually naive society and i urge all Catholics to switch off their minds and hearts…if not their eyes and mouths…to all the hulabaloo of our times…it shall all come to pass in the latter days…these pastors are making atheists to have something to talk about…it SICK!!!
Moni

this is the craziest story ive heard in my life. Mboro ought to be sent to jail for all of this.
Team

Did someone try and find out why this guy calls himself mboro? Where is the police?