Learning a Few Things from Religious Practices

McGowan (without explicitly stating it) makes the case for Humanist chaplaincies. It’s that simple. It’s great to see interest in organized atheistic communities rising and new voices lucidly speaking up.

They’d be giving up their social network, a place to go on weekends, a babysitter, a place to recharge their batteries, a place to discuss issues, a place to be told how to live life better.

I’m sorry but if you need church — or a secular substitute religion such as, I don’t know, secular humanism, how fucking pathetic are you?

In other words, I rather concur with PrimeNumbers. I’m just not a churchy person.

Look, get out into this world and meet people. Go do stuff you’re intersted in and you’ll naturally meet people with the same interests. You know, if you like talk to them.

If you have some tragedy you’re having trouble dealing with, go to a support group or see a shrink or you know put a period at the end of that sentence and move the fuck on. Man, shit sucks and is hard to get over but grownups suck it up and get on with life. If you can’t, seriously, see somebody. Church dinners aren’t going to do it.

(Frankly, we need more shrinks like the one in that Geico commercial when his patient whines about the color yellow. Why do we baby grownups so damned much these days? We keep people from moving on by endlessly dwelling on the shit that happened to us these days.)

Geeze, don’t you recharge your batteries just by relaxing at home? And if you’re too pathetic to make friends, well, hell there’s the internet for discussing issues. Isn’t that what we’re doing here?

Seriously pisses me off when people try to turn Atheism into a religion. Humanist chaplains can go jump into a lake with all the other ones as far as I’m concerned.

Oh, and boo hoo, if you’re so weak you feel you’ve got to have one. I really don’t feel sorry for you. But Christ’s sake, if you are, there are already numerous counselors available. Of the secular variety.

This came up in a thead a little while ago – how does “I’m just not a churchy person” or “As an atheist I’m not comfortable in groups” (the comment from the other thread) translate into this diatribe against people who are looking for the social connection of a group?

I thought this was kind of funny: “If you are too pathetic to make friends, there is the internet for discussing issues.” Which is more pathetic, doing your socializing on the internet or going out to find a community of people that you can actually interact with?

I agree with Marylynne.

Some people have a hard time making friends, especially if they move to a new area. True, you can join a book club or something of the sort, but depending on what kind of community you live in, it may not be the best place to meet new people. I’m all for making friends with other people who have different beliefs – but in a community where atheism is really frowned upon / judged (or something the community may consider “sinful”, for that matter), a group made up of atheists, agnostics or secular humanists might really help.

I get really annoyed when people are up on their high horse because for them, its easy to make friends. They can afford a therapist, so why doesn’t everyone just go to one? They’re extroverted, so why isn’t everyone else?

I don’t think theres anything wrong with wanting a group of freethinkers to get together and have dinner once a week or so. Just to forge friendships or even to get advice on things like secular parenting or the like. Some people like community. Some don’t. No one is forcing anyone else to join one of these things. Its pretty ridiculous to call someone pathetic for missing going to a weekly social event.

I’m sorry but if you need church — or a secular substitute religion such as, I don’t know, secular humanism, how fucking pathetic are you?

And this is the attitude that religious ppl point to and call atheists elitist schmucks.

What muggle is saying, essentially, is that, since her way of life ‘fits her good’, it ought to be good enough for everybody else. This is pretty much the argument we hear from the religious all the time, and it bothers me no less from my side of the fence, not the least when I share, on a personal level the lack of desire for ‘churching’, or rather personal social interaction.

My personal social proclivities should not be a litmus test for what being an atheist means.

On the same note, from another comment :

As an atheist I’m not comfortable in groups

Since when is social discomfort an attribute of atheism? I was uncomfortable in groups before I ever heard of atheism.

One can make the case that not requiring a social network as much as others makes people more likely to look at the facts of religion more soberly, but that doesn’t mean that atheism is relegated to be the position of the social miser.

It’s not as if anyone is proposing mandatory attendance to secular social events. No one is going to make you attend “atheist church” if you don’t feel inclined to.

I was once talking to a Catholic friend. He was bemoaning the fact that he couldn’t find a nice Catholic girl anywhere, and I said, “Well, go to the singles mass, or whatever Catholics do.” He was confused. I said, “Or maybe your singles dances? Singles activities?”

Still confusion. Pretty soon, we figured it out: Mormons have a vast and interwoven social network. Talent shows, road shows, weekly youth activities, weekly family activities, BBQ’s in the summer, dances every month (later, every week).

And it’s all free (well, pay your 10% tithing, but that’s private and you can still enjoy the activities if you don’t pay tithing). I miss that. I miss having a group of people in my age range and with similar life circumstances to talk to (and how much cooler would that be if we actually had beliefs in common?!?). I miss weekly get-togethers where we do goofy talent shows or put on mini-plays based to karaoke music. I miss volunteering as a group of friends for cleaning up highways or feeding the homeless. I miss learning how to dance and going on horseback rides and just hanging out with a big, inclusive group of like-minded, friendly people.

And a good part of the reason why I was able to leave the church and become atheist was because after my husband and I married, we became part of a family ward. Now we were expected to stop attending youth/ singles dances, stop doing large group family home evenings, etc. Now if I went to a dance, I was supposed to be a chaperone — and I was only 22! All the activities dropped, and church isn’t nearly interesting enough on it’s own.

But yeah, I miss all that. Sometimes I look around at humanist groups in the area, but I’m in a little tiny semi-rural town, a good 80+ miles away from the largest thriving humanist/ atheist community center.

It’s not as if anyone is proposing mandatory attendance to secular social events. No one is going to make you attend “atheist church” if you don’t feel inclined to.

No, but I’ve seen tons of people claiming we’re somehow making atheism less popular because we don’t want to waste our time at a meeting where we sit around talking about how much we agree with each other that god doesn’t exist.

Technically, the Cubs are a real team, even though they don’t seem to play that way. Now being a “fan” of fairly tales or illusions is another thing entirely.

UUism might be alternative, but at least in my case they seem to encourage self censorship and prohibit open criticism of supernatural beliefs.

I’ve never been much of a sports fan and could never really understand the arbitrariness of sports fandom.

Like with sports, I understand some people have a desire for that community aspect, but it’s never interested me a great deal. But then, I always felt like an outsider at church, even as a devout Christian.

I’m sorry but if you need church — or a secular substitute religion such as, I don’t know, secular humanism, how fucking pathetic are you?

What a nasty, small-minded person you are. If you’re not a “churchy” person then stay the hell home, you’re not wanted.

A church-like environment can fill the needs of introverts, as well as people who want a way to build relationships that aren’t necessarily tied into a particular hobby, specialty, or health/psychological issue.

Having access to a chaplaincy would also be beneficial for people who cannot afford to go to a professional counselor (but make too much money to get free care) or who have troubles that are not related to mental health; sometimes you just want to talk to someone who is a good listener, whom you can bounce ideas off of and who is not so close to you or the problem that they will offer biased advice. And it can be expensive to see a therapist or coach.

It is my hope to start a humanist community center some day. Not that I have anything against the UU church, but the one I’m familiar with is still focused on ritual and spirituality. I would like to focus more on community and practical concerns.

I’m the leader of the local Humanist group. What I most wish we had is a facility in which to meet. A “Temple of Reason”… I’d like to offer our community a lot of the “church” type classes and services that the fundies have. But we have to meet in the library and other public places.

What we do now is a monthly meeting, in which we either have group discussions on a particular topic, or show a film. We have a second monthly meeting in which we read books of the group’s choice and then discuss over dinner. The Book Discussion Group has been very successful and has really helped to create a small community. I also host seasonal group dinners (solstices) and misc. events at my home.

If we had our own facility, we could offer more frequent meetings, films, classes, lectures and discussion groups, musical events, a site for secular weddings and memorial services, and possibly a soup kitchen. Among other things…

There are a lot of us who would like something that is “spiritual” for lack of a better word without being supernatural or religious. Many of us also desire a community that shares our philosophy of life. I’d like to see such centers created across the country. If millions of Xians can create small churches in every city, I don’t know why we humanists and freethinkers can’t do the same. “Atheist” does not have to be synonymous with “misanthropic loner”.

marylynne wrote:

This came up in a thead a little while ago – how does “I’m just not a churchy person” or “As an atheist I’m not comfortable in groups” (the comment from the other thread) translate into this diatribe against people who are looking for the social connection of a group?

I thought this was kind of funny: “If you are too pathetic to make friends, there is the internet for discussing issues.” Which is more pathetic, doing your socializing on the internet or going out to find a community of people that you can actually interact with?

Bingo.

The intolerance for the differing needs/desires for some form of ‘community and fellowship’ demonstrated by some here is almost bordering on dogma, if you ask me….

If you have no desire for such activities/connections, then don’t seek them out. But to call others ‘pathetic’ for wanting it seems downright puerile.

Some of you may find it pathetic, but I long for the sense of community that I had as a Christian. I have only recently started coming out as an atheist and I can honestly say that I mourn the loss of my religious faith. I continued to attend church for quite a while after I stop believing because I truly loved the community. The members of my church supported me through high school and afterwards. They fed me, gave me a place to stay, and listened to me when I felt like I didn’t have anyone else. I miss everyone from the young people to the little old ladies. I could not continue to live a lie and eventually stopped going. I would be lying if I said that it does not still hurt sometimes. I miss the potlucks, the Christmas parties, and the conversations that I had with me church family. I often wonder what it will be like for my children to grow up atheist. They will not get the indoctrination that I find so wrong but they will also miss out on the Sunday school classes and the friends that one finds there. They will not go to the church camp where some of my fondest memories were formed and they will not have dozens of extra “grannies” at church who love them. While it’s certainly not for everyone, I would appreciate an active humanist community. I don’t even necessarily want “spiritual” guidance, just a group of people who share some things in common who would like to spend time getting to know each other. I’m a shy person so I find it hard to meet people outside of some group setting, I know that this type of thing isn’t for everyone.

Groups dedicated to the secular mindset are growing and strengthening, little by little. Coming generations will be able to avail themselves of the groups and purposes being established today, in place of a church if the secular groups make themselves known as community groups. It won’t happen in a vacuum of insular friendships but the larger movement is becoming more mainstream than ever before.

AxeGrrl, I’m not completely sure. I’m still in contact with some members of my old church and they haven’t totally rejected me although they do try to convince me that I’m wrong. I think that if the majority of them found out that I was no longer a Christian they would mostly be very disappointed and concerned. Sometimes atheist blogs lump all Christians together into a group of terrible, delusional people and that tends to bother me because my experience has largely been very positive. The Christians in my life are loving, generous, and kind people. I was raised in a few different churches (independent evangelical, Nazarene, and American Baptist) and none of them (individual churches that I attended) were of the hell fire and brimstone type so that probably colors my views to an extent.

I don’t know there are hundreds of comunitys in my Area I could join that are secular: sports clubs, fan clubs, theatrical or musical clubs, folklore clubs, movie clubs, boardgaming communitys, age communitys, there are city centeres for elderly people and youth centres, live roleplaying groups,… I could go on for quite a while. Most people I know are part of one or more of these. Church attendence here in Essen,Germany is low. Except for Christmas less than ten Percent of believers regularly attend Church. Only roughly 60% Percent of the local Population is Christian, so Church attendance is below 6%.(Source(in German): http://fowid.de/)

I was once a Cubs fan and after twenty years I just couldn’t do it anymore. It’s just too heartbreaking and emotionally exhausting. I’m now a baseball atheist. I don’t cheer for any team. Though I still like baseball. Hmmm…If I like the sport but don’t pick a team, does that make me a baseball agnostic? Or maybe a baseball deist? Anyway.

I don’t think it would have been as easy (not that it was easy) to leave my fandom behind if I had a support system based on that fandom. When I became a Cubs fan as a kid, it was because I had a lot of friends who were Cubs fans. Now I don’t have many friends who even like sports that much. I live relatively close to Chicago (Dubuque) so there’s plenty of Cubs fans around. But the friendships I have just don’t involve sports. There was no feeling of community I gave up by losing my fandom. The only thing I gave up was another disappointing season.

I’ve felt the sense of support and belonging a church can offer. The feeling I get when I attend an atheist/skeptic meeting is the exact same feeling.

I don’t know why we humanists and freethinkers can’t do the same. “Atheist” does not have to be synonymous with “misanthropic loner”.

I love how anyone who doesn’t want to come to your meeting is automatically a ‘misanthropic loner’.

@Donna Hamel-

I don’t think people are suggesting that they can’t have friends with different beliefs – but some people like to have some friends with some of the same views, especially if they are looking to get advice on certain matters, or looking for people who can relate to the de-conversion process if they are having a hard time. Also, as I said before, it might depend on the community you’re in. If you live in a small middle of nowhere town in the bible belt and you’re an open atheist (and openly gay, or something else frowned upon), you might have some trouble making friends (at least at first). Suggesting a way to meet like-minded people (or people who may be more likely to be accepting) doesn’t automatically make you closed minded. Sure, there are also other organizations you can join like a sports team, book club, etc, but why would one more group hurt? If I joined one, I certainly wouldn’t abandon the friends I already have who are religious but it might be a fun way to meet new people that I hadn’t thought of before.

I don’t think people are angry because you wouldn’t join a group like that or because you disagreed. I think people thought that you were sounding overly hostile (and therefore being an Un-Friendly Atheist). Some people are recent converts and some miss having community from church – they don’t come here to feel bad about it or to be called pathetic. You might not have meant it to sound as mean as it did, but unfortunately, the internet isn’t always a great way to get a point across easily – no way to tell what words are being emphasized, the tone, inflections, and so on.

You know as adults I don’t think there is a lack of activities if you seek them out, but atheist adults with children (in my experience) do have a more difficult time finding a niche where they will be accepted.
I wish that atheist groups would do more family oriented stuff, I do believe that that may be why some people still hang on to their church family, even though they may not feel the “religion” anymore.
We live in eastern Washington and have looked for inexpensive activities that we can do as a family with children and those activities are few and far between. Now at the UU church my granddaughters can do things like have game nights, movies etc. All without fear of being proselytized to.

One thing about being religious, almost any community you go to you can easily find a welcoming church where you know the routine and can meet people. It would be nice to have a something similar for non-believers; you don’t have to talk about your beliefs but you don’t have to watch what you say either.

I moved from a city to a small (close minded) town and had a heck of a time meeting people. Not religious, in 30s with no children, not interested in hockey, unemployable because I was an outsider – one of those pathetic people muggles refers to – I would have happily joined such a group while I found my bearings. The internet doesn’t really encourage personal interactions in the community.

I am somewhat leery of promoting church like organizations as an atheist. Ultimately if you want a church, go to a church. It’s pretty obvious that religious belief is not required. But if other atheists/Humanists want to do so, go for it. Just don’t insist that it is essential that others support it.

I don’t think that it will help people leave the church by creating communities. People stay in their church because they don’t want to leave their EXISTING community. And there are real penalties for that. A new community won’t prevent or fix that. The only way atheist or humanist communities will help is if they create an environment in which they reduce the penalty for being an atheist more effectively than not creating such communities.

I feel so inspired!! Yay!!