4 in 10 Americans Are Completely Delusional About Evolution

This is why Western Europe is laughing at us.

I don’t think we can expect large changes in the short term. We need to to work towards long term change. And we are seeing it in these results. One thing I notice about some atheists is a lack of wanting to plan for the long term, they just want religion gone ‘NOW!’ I think we need to think in terms of decades and even generations. Generations are especially important, since one generation tends to be less dogmatic then the last (although it can go in cycles that contradict that).

Unfortunately the increase is nearly within the margin of error, and the present 40% is within the margin of error of “no change” over the past 30 years!

who are these people? Are they all atheists who go to church for some ulterior reason? Or are there actually Christians who don’t think a god had anything to do with evolution?

I was one of these people. I was lucky enough to have really bright parents, one of whom was an atheist who got no say in our “churching” and the other who was a missionary child but also a biologist. I was shocked to find out that not everyone at our church understood the fact of evolution and the mechanisms of natural selection and mutation as I grew up!

There are some atheists who get dragged to church by parents, spouses, children etc. There are also christians who actually think that god had nothing to do with evolution. My observations have led me to believe that the latter can only survive in the most liberal of churches. In other situations, they either modify their beliefs, or leave.

@Jeff: speaking as a Western European (well, England’s Western Europe as far as I’m concerned) you’re basically right. I wish you weren’t, but there are too many people here who consider Americans to be undereducated, naive, Hollywood-brainwashed stereotypes with a gun in one hand, a cross in the other, a John Wayne movie playing in their heads and one eye spinning like a fruit machine. Or something.

The problem is, pointing out the number of perfectly intelligent Americans doesn’t tend to do a lot, because it’s too easy to point to the Great Iraq Clusterfuck (as I believe history will come to know it), or the mere existence (ever) of Don’t Ask Don’t Tell, America’s support for Israel (who as we’re probably all at least vaguely aware basically just moved into Palestine and started taking people’s land), that awful shite with the weapons manufacturer inscribing Bible references on parts…you get the picture – people can just point to any one of these, or more, and say ‘Look at that! The place is a democracy, and they voted in people who do *that*!’…and they’re right, and that’s the worst part.

It might be something to do with the youth of the nation (don’t go there, guys, I mean how recently America was founded) – without such a long history of its own, maybe American society is subconsciously trying to enshrine as many things into folklore and long-held tradition as it can, and is pulling some damn fool ideas into the process along with the decent ones? The crap about George Washington being unable to lie is an interesting one (’cause frankly no one unable to lie would ever make it in human society, let alone reach political office). Thoughts?

@Aegis,

I agree (Israel/Palestine is more complicated than that, but whatever). If the few people I care about weren’t here, I’d leave and never look back.

I’m actually embarrassed when I meet someone from Europe. I met a young man from France a few years ago who was here to do a postdoc in physics. He hadn’t been to the US before. I said, “You know all of those awful things they say about us in Europe? They’re all true!”

He replied, “Well, in France, we think you’re all obese and eat Big Macs at every meal.”

I told him, “Actually, that is true!”

Oh, I think I understand what Hemant was trying to do with his graph, now. He was making a more realistic prediction, as opposed to one based on 100% wishful thinking. I would have put evolutionists at 100%, but 70% is just as bleak. Sadly, it takes a long time for people to get smart.

@Nakor: That’s exactly what I was thinking. Theistic evolutionists don’t bother me nearly as much as those who refuse to accept the fact of evolution.

We need to pick our battles. Never have I been so confident my opponent was wrong, as I have in the evolution-creationism debate. This is a battle we can win.

God isn’t going to have enough matches for all of us.

@Aegis: I think your speculation about a connection between America’s more extreme craziness and it’s relative youth has something to it. I think also that it has to do with when in history the US became an independent nation: right before industrialization really took off.

I think another factor in disbelieving evolution is that most people don’t have a sense of how old the world / universe really is. It’s difficult for most modern humans to realize how profoundly the world has changed in the last 200 years, let alone hundreds of millions.

Laugh all you want at my country, but don’t laugh at me specifically. We aren’t all idiots.

@Aegis & Hoverfrog: The problem here is that there is not a lot of overlap between the group of people who would actually care that you guys are laughing at us, and the group of people who are Reality Deniers. Reality deniers would just call you Un-American (as if that were some kind of insult to people who actually aren’t Americans) and then pat themselves on the back for their superiority.

I wonder if a big bunch of the “believe in evolution but God started it” are Catholics. That’s how I grew up – I don’t think for many it is a strong theological conviction; it’s just that the Bible was metaphor and evolution did happen, and there is a God, so just squish them together without much thought.

Now I’m an atheist in church. At the new member orientation at the UU church I now go to, 2/3 of us said, “I lost faith ___ years ago, haven’t been to church since, now I’m here because (some social need that is met).”

If we add up those who accept the evidence for evolution whether God kick-started it or not, that’s 54 percent, which is . . .better, still kinda pathetic, really.

It is important to remember that evolution is a very slow and gradual process. It is going to take a very long time for a change as dramatic as the separation of the cranium from the rectal cavity.

Allogenes, the thing is that evolution works through unguided processes. We know those processes. They are not guided.

People who believe in theistic evolution think God guided evolution. So they’re denying something we know about how evolution works.

Theistic evolutionists can range from those who think God did intervene often to those who think God set up the dominoes (i.e., natural laws) and has been watching since and everything between. Personally I don’t worry too much about theistic evolutionists as long as they don’t think scientific evidence for God has been (or is likely to be) found.

The big worry is the still huge number who seem to be young earth creationists (or old earth with humans as a special creation). Those are refusing to accept most of science and not just biology.

to those who think God set up the dominoes (i.e., natural laws) and has been watching since

Strictly speaking, wouldn’t that be the deist position rather than the theists?

Another way of looking at this is that our camp has nearly doubled in 10 years and would equate to nearly 50 million people, more than most countries have total. It’s not great, but its a start.

As for the theists/diests who believe in god playing role in evolution, they don’t worry me so much since they are just trying to cling to shredded beliefs of an afterlife for comfort. As long as they accept science and don’t try to “prove” god, then whatever. The tide is changing.

Also, I am a UU and a large number of us (a majority in many congregations if not most), are atheists like myself. We join to be around other intellectual people and form a sense of community in a world that is otherwise very unwelcoming. I’m curious why @The Sceptical Scribe calls it a crock. Really, I’m curious why you would dump an insult like that without explaining.

@Non-Litigious Atheist: I brought up the same point. Hemant said he didn’t want there to be more creationists than theistic evolutionists, but I think he was attempting at a more realistic prediction.

@Colin: This is America, and I can share my disgust whenever I feel like it, and without explanation. However, I’ll be kind enough to explain why I said this, since I have time.

UU churches basically preach liberalism, and nothing more. Everything goes, and “all religions are right.” That’s a dumb thing to say. I should punch the next person who says that, and it wouldn’t be wrong, since punching is my religion.

Pagans can worship next to Christians who can worship next to Wiccans who can worship next to athiests or whatever. The UU Church claims to have Judeo-Christian roots, but really shies away from preaching anything Christian. I’ve heard that some UU churches even bash Christianity, but I cannot prove this.

Personally, I wouldn’t feel very welcome in a UU church. I’ve even been criticized for my atheism by a Unitarian Universalist. They claim to be all about tolerance, but do the exact opposite sometimes. What are they all about?

And a “church” is meant to be a place of worship. I don’t understand what the purpose of a UU church is. To worship with everyone under the sun can have no benefit because there is no common confession of faith – you don’t share anything with those members but pew space.

If I were a person of faith, I’d feel a lot more comfortable and purposeful by going to the church of my religion. A UU church is not a “church” in the practical sense of the term.

@hoverfrog: Being an atheist in America is hard, so please do take a moment to praise us.

Don’t buy into the “being a Christian is hard” talk. I hear that everyday. Being a Christian is as hard as being Caucasian. It’s always easy to be in the majority. I would imagine an atheist would be happier in Europe. Like I said, I want to move there.

I once lived in Germany three years. Too bad I can’t remember how good of a place it was, since I was a toddler during those years.

@wright1:

I think another factor in disbelieving evolution is that most people don’t have a sense of how old the world / universe really is. It’s difficult for most modern humans to realize how profoundly the world has changed in the last 200 years, let alone hundreds of millions.

I often wonder if most people are even capable of comprehending the age of the universe or the earth. As many have noted, our brains evolved in the context of 0-90 year life spans, with the average in the low 30s until recent centuries. We start with a cognitive inability to intuitively understand cosmic or geological timespans. It takes work to overcome this and at least mentally start to grasp such periods. Just the type of work the religious and/or incurious are unlikely to undertake.

Yes, @Marylynne has it–54% believe in evolution. A lot of them then have to do some semantic gymnastics to make it fit their religious beliefs, but they can see the scientific facts and accept them. Their rationalizations don’t enter into it.

54% is, as she says, still pretty pathetic, but to say only 16% accept evolution is, at best, mistaken; at worst, it gives theists ammo to say atheists skew the facts to support their cause. Disagreeing is fine, but let’s not become disrespectful toward the xians who are most likely to be our allies in making society more tolerant of non-xians.

@Godless Lawyer: Margin of error

hoverfrog: Yeah, sorry America but we do laugh at you.

Likewise.

The Sceptical Scribe: Unitarian Universalism is a huge crock.

So what? You can take what you find valuable and ignore what you don’t.

The Sceptical Scribe: I’ve even been criticized for my atheism by a Unitarian Universalist.

Ah.

@Godless Lawyer, You asked why the numbers didn’t add up to 100%.

It is because there was an additional possible response “Other/No opinion” which was not included in the charts. If the percentages for that response were to be included, then the percentages would add up to 100%. The margin or error has nothing to do with the numbers not adding up to 100%.

There are few things are horridly ignorant as strict creationism.

Europe wasn’t even a part of the subject until you brought it up.

Comment fail on my part. Either all the comments didn’t load on the first try, or I did some really creative scrolling. Either way, fail. Still, the sentiment holds.

The poll shows that 2% of Americans attend church weekly but don’t believe a god played a role in human evolution… who are these people? Are they all atheists who go to church for some ulterior reason? Or are there actually Christians who don’t think a god had anything to do with evolution?

Most likely the church they attend is a member of the Unitarian Universalist Association… 🙂

Sceptical Scribe,

Your description of UU: Sort of, but you are missing the point. I wonder if you have experience yourself with UU or you are just going by what you have heard about it.

It is a liberal religious tradition, but there is certainly more to it than that. It doesn’t say all religions are right. It says that not any one religion has the truth and that wisdom and insight can be drawn from many sources.

“Pagans can worship next to Christians who can worship next to Wiccans who can worship next to athiests or whatever.” This is true. “Shies away from preaching anything Christian, bashes Christianity” – not true. I have heard sermons and readings based on the Bible. It is not the majority of the readings, though.

-No dogma, no creeds to believe in. They value the individual spiritual journey and the questions much more than the answers. It’s not everything goes – the basic values of peace, justice, equality and tolerance are important.

– Strong tradition of working for justice. UU has been at the forefront of abolition, women’s rights, civil rights, immigration, and LGBT movements.

My atheism has been very welcomed in my UU church. You said, “I’ve even been criticized for my atheism by a Unitarian Universalist.” If a single person criticized your beliefs, that doesn’t say anything about UU as a whole.

“I don’t understand what the purpose of a UU church is. To worship with everyone under the sun can have no benefit because there is no common confession of faith – you don’t share anything with those members but pew space.” I guess you could expand your definition of the purpose of a church. I share values, intellectual discussions, commitment and actions towards justice, enjoyment of the company, a sense of community, and pleasure in the service – lots of things besides a common confession of faith.

You asked someone to explain why our “cult” is a good thing – I know this isn’t much of a start, but if you are really interested there is lots of info around. Just consider you really don’t have the whole picture. If you aren’t interested and have already made up your mind based on the limited info you have, well, hope that works out for you.

ML

@Marylynne: Thanks for the explanation. However, I’m still a little bit … uncomfortable. As an atheist, I tend to shy away from groups.

We shouldn’t blame the Universities for this sad affair. They are doing the best they can with the resources they are given. Belief in evolution is so low because belief in religion is so high, and many aren’t willing to do the intellectual gymnastics necessary to believe both at the same time. The reason why belief in religion is so high in America is, ironically, freedom of religion.

In Europe for centuries many countries only accepted one denomination as official. So every time the government was corrupt, the church was blamed for being corrupt too. Thus many people began to abandon the church because they hated the government that it supported.

In America, there is no official denomination, so all of them could claim some independence. People felt that they had chosen their own faith, even if they were born into it, because the government never told them what denomination to belong to. Thus corruption in the government could not automatically be linked to the church (even if in reality it was) and thus more people felt comfortable staying religious.

@The Sceptical Scribe: This is America, and I can share my disgust whenever I feel like it, and without explanation. However, I’ll be kind enough to explain why I said this, since I have time.

First, I did’t think I was questioning your right to say what you want. I was just respectfully curious. You are, of course, entitled to be critical of UUs or any other thing you want. Just because I asked for a reasoning is not the same as challenging your right to say it or withhold reasoning. With that said, I appreciate your response.

@Marylynne had a great overall response to your post, so I’d like to just address one thing.

And a “church” is meant to be a place of worship. I don’t understand what the purpose of a UU church is. To worship with everyone under the sun can have no benefit because there is no common confession of faith – you don’t share anything with those members but pew space.

Not true at all. We don’t share any supernatural beliefs, but we do share many natural world beliefs that we feel are worth sharing. These include a commitment to intellect, responsible environmental stewardship, integrity in personal conduct, and a commitment to social justice. As for worship, I think its a relic term from the UU past as a very liberal Christian tradition. But if I’m going to worship anything, I can live with worshiping intellect and justice and human potential.

BTW, if a UU criticized you for being an atheist, please tell them I said to “fuck off”. Some atheists are assholes also, but I wouldn’t say I’d never join an atheist group because of one idiot.

If UU is not for you, thats cool. And if you still think we are a “cult”, then okey dokey. To each his own. Again, I thank you for sharing your thoughts.

Out of the 60+ comments on this board no one mentions that evolution is not fact, not truth, but a theory that has yet to be proven? Am I missing something here? When has evolution cleared the scientific process?

http://noapologizing.wordpress.com/2010/10/08/missing-link-found/

Am I wrong? Help me to understand how evolution is fact if it cannot pass the sceintific method. I am looking for an honest answer here. I used the word theory because of the association of the word theory with evolution (e.g. theory of evolution, evolutional theory, etc…)

http://noapologizing.wordpress.com/2010/05/20/the-bible-is-it-historically-reliable/

(sorry hoverfrog, I’ll be brief)

@KCbob, if you are honestly seeking answers (which I quite strongly doubt) please look here and here. If you read both of those articles and have any questions that demonstrate that you have A-indeed read the articles and B-understood the basic notions in them, and have related questions, then I’d be happy to continue the conversation. However if you come back with a re-stating of your previous comments that clearly show you have not read the information on hand, then any further comment will be disregarded.

Cheers.

This is more simple than finding scholarly articles. You don’t know what a scientific theory is. Period. If you can’t even comprehend that, no amount of research will help you. And WP is a perfectly valid place to learn the difference between the colloquial meaning of “theory” (i.e. a hypothesis) and a scientific theory.

And yeah, you just come across a troll.

I look forward to the day when the “Evolution without god’s influence” crosses the “god create man” line. It will truly be a year to celebrate. A rough extrapolation shows that it might happen by 2028. I hope to live that long.

ehhhh i have to go with 1 because 2 is so poorly worded…