FFRF’s Winter Solstice Sign Placed in Wisconsin Capitol

you’re soulless i’m soulless we’re all soulless for the next ad,that’ll fry their bacon 😀

I’m gonna have to go check that out. I’m only about 5 blocks from there!

Well, at least I’m glad atheists are giving up the whole “Hey I’m not making any claim, don’t ask me, I just have the same position as a 1-year-old concerning this complex issue” idea. Religion should be addressed as another social, historical and anthropological topic.

@ Robert W.
Are you a Christian?

I am kind of surprised that this is OK on public property. I mean, the message is spot on, but it is blatantly mentioning god heaven and hell. That makes it a message about religion on governmental property.

Robert W,

Its obvious that the reason most people have celebrate is not the winter solstice. However the winter solstice is the reason this as been for years a ‘holiday’ for many civilizations, and was the cause of Christmas being placed on December 25th.

And it doesn’t matter how many times you say it- the real reason for the season in this country is not the winter solstice.

Millions of people might be celebrating Jesus, but the only reason they’re celebrating at this time of year is because of the winter solstice, and the way they’re celebrating dates back to ancient pagan festivals. As I mentioned on the other thread, the vast majority of Christmas traditions have nothing to do with the story of baby Jesus in the manger. Most of our modern traditions are either recent inventions or stem from pagan holidays, ie: Yule logs, Christmas trees, wreaths, mistletoe, holly, ivy, lights, candles, snowmen, reindeer, eggnog, gingerbread, fruitcake, sending cards, hanging stockings, leaving out cookies for Santa, etc.

Now that’s a sign I can proudly enjoy!

I love that sign. I wish I could marry it.

I smell a shit storm coming.

How about an even bigger curveball by posting a picture of a dollar bill with the message, “In Allah We Trust”. Let’s see how much they complain when it’s not necessarily evil atheists attacking God but it’s not their God getting the credit either.

Kamaka,

The Coke marketing campaign doesn’t change the truth about this holiday and its meaning in this country for centuries.

@ Robert W

The Coke marketing campaign doesn’t change the truth about this holiday and its meaning in this country for centuries.

For centuries? Perhaps you exaggerate.

Santa and god have a lot in common. They both know whether you’ve been naughty or nice. They both know if you are sleeping or if you are awake.

And both of these supernatural entities will punish you for behaving incorrectly. I prefer the fictitious Santa, though, because he just puts coal in your stocking to let you know he is displeased. The fictitous angry god guy is far more scary; if you piss him off, he sends you off to an eternity of horrible flaming torture.

That would ruin my Xmas.

Queue Bill O’Reilly’s apoplexy…

I didn’t like the sign last year, I still don’t like the sign this year. It’s dickish. It basically translates to “Happy solstice, you deluded fucking morons”.

I have to assume the Wisconsin Capitol allows signs from any and all religions or worldviews if this sign is allowed. If not, it’s as much an affront to the 1st ammendment as a nativity scene. Personally I think a much more entertaining and positive way to send government the message that it should stay out of holiday traditions is by overwhelming them with mythologies. Put up a nativity scene. Next put up a Menorah. After that a tree of Reason. Then put up an image of Mithras. I’m sure you could easily find 20-30 different mythologies that could not be denied. This would either get the local government to decide it would rather not have religious shrines on public property or it would stand as a very educational monument to the huge diversity of religions and cultures who “just happen” to have important events around the winter solstice. Either way, it’s a win.

As for the FFRF sign, I’m really not with the “well, if we don’t do this we won’t get publicity!” angle. Publicity whoredom just ain’t my thing. I’d much rather have a sign that is actually positive like “Whatever you’re mythology, we wish you a happy solstice!” with the symbols of various religions around it (I’m sure there are better ideas, I’m not in marketing). There is a time and place to be negative, to be mean, to not back down or be polite. I just don’t see one of the most benign religious traditions in the country as being one of those times, sorry.

Claudia “Happy solstice, you deluded fucking morons” may be one way of looking at it. For some of the Christian Cult of Ignorance it isn’t wrong. This sign though is a little more polite. I like it but I’d like it more if public resources were used elsewhere instead.

ACN,

If that is the case then I think you are correct that this is okay. I understand they did the same thing in Washington State. It looks like it may stop since folks started putting up flying spaghetti monster and festifus displays.

I have to agree with Robert (this has now happened twice, which is starting to worry me lol). To pretend that Christmas doesn’t have very strong Christian overtones in the US a denial of history.

Yes, solstice was celebrated anyway and yes, the birthday was moved to co-opt said celebrations. I can also agree that in modern times, religion has little to do with Christmas for most folks. It’s about lights, and big meals, and family and gifts and cheesy songs.

Now, stop any person on the street and ask them “What is celebrated on Christmas?” and you’re going to get “The birth of Jesus” as an answer. The fact that the vast majority of the original population of the US was Christian and that Christmas is one of the most major holidays is not some wild coincidence.

It’s legitimate to point out that Jesus is rather secondary at Christmas these days. It’s legitimate to point out that many traditions are anything but Christian in origin (yule logs, trees, gifts, lights). However pretending that Christmas has “nothing to do” with the Christian faith is simply untrue.

Robert,

But regardless, I don’t think that there can be any real argument that in this country Christmas has always been recognized as a Christian holiday. Certainly with secular components but also, along with Easter, one of the days with the highest church attendance.

I don’t think anyone is arguing that. Of course Christmas is a Christian holiday. It’s also a secular holiday and a pagan holiday. There are elements of all three mixed in our modern Christmas, and it seems to me that the latter two components are far more popular than the former. If you removed everything except baby Jesus from an American Christmas, you would end up with something almost unrecognizable. People would set up a nativity scene, sing some religious carols, go to church, and that’s it. I think the vast majority of Christians would be very unhappy if you took away all their fun pagan and secular traditions.

As for church attendance, I’m not sure what that has to do with it. As a devout Christian yourself, do you really think that the millions of token Christians who go to church just on Christmas are being reverential and actually celebrating the birth of Jesus? In my experience, such people go to church on Christmas Eve or Christmas Day because it’s traditional. They may or may not actually believe the myth (hence the billboard), but they like to sing traditional carols, light candles, and see the cute little kids dressed up as angels and sheep. Heck, I’d bet there are even thousands of atheists who go to church on Christmas for precisely that reason.

Vas,

I can’t speak for all Christians as to why they think it is important to place nativity scenes on public land. There are alot of churches that have their own and do display them on their own land.

If I was to guess, i would suspect that since the majority of people in this country are Christian and that includes public officials i would think that they would think it was normal and ok to put a nativity scene up on public land, much like a Christmas tree. It most likely is a long standing tradition that has gone on for years without a problem.

That of course doesn’t make it constitutional. Even though I am a Christian I certainly think that the nativity scene is a Christian symbol that probably should stay on private land.

As for other references to God like in the Pledge or on the money or even the Ten commandments, I think there is more of an argument for those not being a violation of church and state.

Has anyone researched if the native americans, that is the Native American Indian Nations had some sort of festivity during winter solstice before they were wiped-out of existence by the nice gentlemen of christian values?

I do think so:

The Pueblo tribe observe both the summer and winter solstices. Although the specific details of the rituals differ from pueblo to pueblo, “the rites are built around the sun, the coming new year and the rebirth of vegetation in the spring….Winter solstice rites include…prayerstick making, retreats, altars, emesis and prayers for increase.” 6

The Hopi tribe “is dedicated to giving aid and direction to the sun which is ready to ‘return’ and give strength to budding life.” Their ceremony is called “Soyal.” It lasts for 20 days and includes “prayerstick making, purification, rituals and a concluding rabbit hunt, feast and blessing…” 6

There are countless stone structures created by Natives in the past to detect the solstices and equinoxes. One was called Calendar One by its modern-day finder. It is in a natural amphitheatre of about 20 acres in size in Vermont. From a stone enclosure in the center of the bowl, one can see a number of vertical rocks and natural features in the horizon which formed the edge of the bowl. At the solstices and equinoxes, the sun rises and sets at notches or peaks in the ridge which surrounded the calendar. 7

And then…

Native Americans had winter solstice rites. The sun images at right are from rock paintings of the Chumash, who occupied coastal California for thousands of years before the Europeans arrived. Solstices were tremendously important to them, and the winter solstice celebration lasted several days.

Well then, even if Christmas has roughly a couple of centuries old in your country, it was only after quite some time of winter solstice celebrations =P.

(and those were 2 min. of googling)

Robert,

As for the traditions, you know us Christians, we can put Christian symbolism almost anywhere so I think alot of the traditions we enjoy would stay even if the sole focus was on Jesus’ birth (which for me it always has been) For example- gift giving to represent the gifts from the wisemen, the candy canes representing the purity of Christ and the blood he shed for us, family get togethers to celebrate his birth and worship together, decorating a tree with religious ornaments, heck even a sleigh ride to symbolize the trip to Bethlehem, etc… We can find it anywhere and the more reminders we have to celebrate our Christian reason for the season the better.

That’s true, and I have nothing against people inventing their own meanings for ancient traditions. I’d be a hypocrite if I did that, since I freely admit I incorporate pagan and Christian traditions in my own celebration of Christmas. From my perspective, I can take those those old traditions and interpret them however I want. But if you’re doing the same thing I am, it’s probably best not to accuse atheists of “rewriting history.” Our gift-giving customs and sleigh rides don’t really have anything to do with the wise men or the trip to Bethlehem.

I don’t disagree that many people only go to church on Christmas and Easter and that they may not have much faith. But when they do on Christmas they hear the Biblical account of Christ’s birth and what it means for mankind.

They hear it, but they may not believe it. Or if they do believe it, it may not mean very much to them. I guess I was just trying to point out that merely going to church doesn’t make someone religious. A token Christian may sit in the pew and hear the familiar story, but they don’t actually find it very significant. It’s more that they just enjoying hearing and doing traditional things. Rituals and traditions mean a lot many people, myself included.

I like that they hear that message and frankly wish alot more atheists did.

You wish that we liked it, or wish that we’d hear it? If the latter, I can assure you that the vast majority of Western atheists have heard the story innumerable times and still don’t find it true or meaningful. As for liking it, well, the story of a baby being born in a manger isn’t distasteful by itself. Parts of the myth are actually rather sweet. It’s the implications of the “savior” aspect that I find offensive, which is of course brought to a head by the gruesomeness of Easter. If it weren’t for that, I’d have no objection to the story. I’d still think of it as a myth, but it wouldn’t be a bad myth.

http://www.thehistoryofchristmas.com/ch/in_america.htm

Claudia wrote:

I didn’t like the sign last year, I still don’t like the sign this year. It’s dickish. It basically translates to “Happy solstice, you deluded fucking morons”.
(snip)
As for the FFRF sign, I’m really not with the “well, if we don’t do this we won’t get publicity!” angle. Publicity whoredom just ain’t my thing. I’d much rather have a sign that is actually positive like “Whatever you’re mythology, we wish you a happy solstice!” with the symbols of various religions around it (I’m sure there are better ideas, I’m not in marketing). There is a time and place to be negative, to be mean, to not back down or be polite. I just don’t see one of the most benign religious traditions in the country as being one of those times, sorry

Claudia, you expressed my thoughts/feelings precisely.

Yet again, the far less dick-ish sign, imo, was the Seattle Atheists’ sign from last year:

“In this holiday season, let us remember that
kindness, charity and goodwill transcend belief, creed or religion.”

It’s ingenious because it makes a GREAT point (that religion doesn’t ‘own’ goodness, nor is it the ‘source’ of it) and also has a ‘collective’ air about it.

The FFRF sign comes across a big ol’ chip-on-the-shoulder, imo. Yeah, people are turned on/engaged by that……………not.

Muggle,

If you will read up a few posts, I apologized and said that hypocritical was too harsh. I also said that if you want to enjoy this time as a secular holiday then feel free to do so and it is of course your right. However, my point was still that in this country it has traditionally been a Christian holiday. As for the essay I think that it is a good description of how Santa Claus came to be but it doesn’t change my point.

For the rest of you Anna, etc. I don’t disagree with the majority of your comments. (those bout Easter excluded, we can have that discussion in the Spring)

Have a wonderful Christmas!