Are You a Christian or Catholic?

“Are you a Christian or a Catholic?”
“1. The latter is a hyponym of the former, so they can’t be compared in parallel without further qualification; 2. Nope.”

If mentioning your religion or philosophical affiliations inhibits your ability to perform your job, you should avoid the subject on purely professional grounds. I don’t know how else to frame the situation except in professional ethics and standards.

This reminds me of the story a few weeks ago about an Oregon student teacher who was asked by a student (3rd or 4th grade?) if he was married. He answered honestly that, no, he couldn’t marry in that state because he would want to marry a man. The parent complained, and he was fired. He since was re-hired… but I bet if he said he didn’t believe in god(s), the same would happen… except he probably wouldn’t have gotten his job back.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/10/3/135839/594

When I was a student teacher of Latin, which included much of Greek and Roman mythology, I was once asked point-blank by a possibly facetious student whether I believed in that mythos, to which I replied that I didn’t. I wish I had been quick enough to say something like, “Why would I believe something just because some bronze-age peasants wrote it down in a storybook?”

My jaw nearly dropped to the floor the first time an Evangelical said something like that to me. She asked me why I wouldn’t join her in prayer and I told her it was because I wasn’t a Christian.

“What are you then,” she asked. “A Catholic?”

Until that time it hadn’t occurred to me that anyone had such a parochial religious attitude that they didn’t consider Catholics to be Christians.

Since then though, I’ve heard similar statements from other evangelicals and it no longer surprises me.

I actually remember arguing with a girl about this when I was little and thought I was Catholic. She kept trying to tell me Catholic wasn’t Christian, and I was trying to correct her. I remember being really upset that someone would insist that something untrue was true even after I most helpfully corrected her. Definitely a feeling familiar to any skeptic 😛

A teacher is not there to “feel comfortable”, thus for me the answer given would not be satisfactory.

Instead, as a teacher, to avoid answering this, I would rather point to irrelevancy of teacher’s religious beliefs in a science class. I would also refuse – on the same basis – to answer questions about the Papa Smurf true color or weight of an angel.

An answer based on facts is always better than one based on emotions.

Now on flights on the other hand – I usually answer that I’m not a big fan of worshiping zombies. But I usually make sure I pick up “Out” or another gay magazine at the airport in an effort to ward off those silly questions.

This is part of the problem. Religious people have no problem blerting out their particlar brand of sueprstition, but the more rational in our society still find it difficult to confront insane beliefs because we might offend people. The faithful are therefore never challenged or exposed to people who do not accept their beleifs. How can we expect people to actually think about their beliefs if they are never challenged?

I’m another that did not like the “I’m not comfortable,” response though I would understand and accept him saying “it is a personal choice and he does not think it is relevant.”

Personally, I would prefer him to just answer the question honestly. I don’t trust individuals that are afraid of having their choices or opinions known or judged by others.

And yes, I get that he does not want to burn any possible employment bridges.

That could be a very quick teaching moment. Respond with: “You assume those are the only two choices” a *Dumbledore eye twinkle* and then move on. 🙂

Why would it be “wrong” or in any way negative to tell the truth??? I would have said: “Sorry, I do not believe in bronze age fairytales.” Why would this be wrong?

I teach in Texas and I need the job.

What would you have me do?

There are actually two issues here. As Mr. Z has noted, the mere asking of this question in this environment is a problem. The act of asking the question was rude and inappropriate. The student lacks manners. The first step is to address that issue. Because the student probably doesn’t realize the lack of manners. Most people don’t. You are not automatically entitled to a persons religion, marital status, politics, likes, dislikes, etc.

Then one can decide whether or not they actually want to answer the question and how they want to do it. The fact that it was an inappropriate question automatically means that it does not have to be answered. No explanation required. The expectation that people will/have to answer personal questions is just another form of priviledge.

This is a touchy subject, but I once had to deal with a similar question in one of my English classes. I had a good relationship with the students in question, and I didn’t want to ignore them. Instead, I chose to tell them that I wasn’t any form of Christian, but that I was an atheist.

Though it was a risky move, I think it actually turned out to be a valuable experience for all of us. I have a few openly atheist students, but none in that particular class. Most of the students have had very few experiences with adult atheists, so their perceptions of atheism are skewed so terribly that they believed the Dane Cook “atheists think they become trees” nonsense. Although it had no real relation to the subject at hand, I took the time to give that one particular class a brief etymology lesson. They learned what the word “atheist” literally means, and that it certainly has nothing to do with the misinformation they’ve picked up.

I think our goal as atheists in society is to actually be a visible part of society. If we are not honest about who we are, then people (students especially) will never realize that they have had positive experiences with atheists. I understand that religion is typically taboo in school, but my students learned something very valuable about the world that day. Most of my colleagues are openly Christian, and I am becoming more and more openly atheist. Neither of these things should matter as long as they do not influence our approach to education.

As an English teacher, I get, “What’s the difference between Christian and Catholic?” all the time.

My stock answer is that from an English language standpoint, Catholic is a subset of Christian. Christian means any religion that claims to follow Christ. I then add that from a theological standpoint, there are tens of thousands of different groups that refer to themselves as Christian but state that others who make that same claim are not really Christian. However, that is a theological distinction and not a linguistic one, so they’ll have to take it up with a theological authority instead of an English teacher.

The one or two times a student has pushed, I say that I am not comfortable with the role of determining who is or isn’t Christian, so go with how they identify themselves.

Tends to answer the question while shutting down a theological debate that might get me in trouble.

For students that really push about my own religious views, I tell them that if they want to talk about it after school to come ask me outside of school hours.

My answer would have been “neither” and moved on to the next question.

Hugh Kramer wrote:

My jaw nearly dropped to the floor the first time an Evangelical said something like that to me. She asked me why I wouldn’t join her in prayer and I told her it was because I wasn’t a Christian.

“What are you then,” she asked. “A Catholic?”

Until that time it hadn’t occurred to me that anyone had such a parochial religious attitude that they didn’t consider Catholics to be Christians

My friend, who was raised Catholic, couldn’t believe it when I informed her that some Christians don’t consider Catholics to be Christians ~ she was completely clueless about this little ‘quirk’ that some Christians have…..

The funny thing is that she was kind of miffed/insulted about it, despite the fact that she’s an atheist and doesn’t give a rat’s a** about any of it 🙂

Which would have been a dozen more questions about your religious views.

And the answer to any further questions on the topic should be, if the children are old enough to understand, “as your teacher I am required by law not to discuss religion with you”. That way you shut down the conversation while letting them know two things: 1) that student-teacher relationships should be maintained at arm’s-length, and 2) that class is not an appropriate place to discuss religion.

If the conversation moves on to the topic of separation of church and state, that can only be a good thing for their education.

As a student, my first philosophy teacher (the only one the small community college I got my AA at had) flatly refused to tell anyone what he believed, about just about anything. (Though he did occasionally tell us things he didn’t believe.)

While I don’t think this would work for all teachers of philosophy, I think it helped this particular teacher keep the emphasis on critical thinking, rather than giving the students any kind of model of what a critical thinker would end up with.

If I felt I could not come out as an atheist, I would answer with another question such as, “Did you know there are over 30,000 different denominations of Christianity?
Or else “Did you walk to school or bring your lunch…?

Andrzej:

A teacher is not there to “feel comfortable”, thus for me the answer given would not be satisfactory.

Yeah, just like a secretary isn’t there to “feel comfortable,” so why should she complain when her boss sexually harasses her?

A teacher isn’t there to answer personal questions about her religious beliefs either.

My response would vary depending on how I felt at the time.

If I just wanted to get it out of the way, I’d simply answer “no.” It’s factual, but doesn’t really say much.

If I wanted to create a little visibility for atheism, I’d reply “no, I’m an atheist.”

If I wanted to dodge the subject but still use it as a teaching moment, I would gently explain that I was working, and that it’s considered impolite to ask people about their religion in the work place (and that in some cases it’s outright illegal), because it can lead to discrimination and discomfort, and that it’s a more appropriate question for one’s friends and family. I would explain that I know the question was not asked out of any hostility, but that I felt it best not to answer it in school.

If I wanted to dodge the subject entirely, I’d just say that’s a personal question and change the subject.

I would definitely not try to explain that christianity and catholicism are not exclusive, unless the subject I was teaching was theology.

My born again mother just asked me to convey to my paternal grandmother that my mother has never held it against my grandmother that my grandmother is Catholic.

I was about to say it sounded like the argument about whether Mighty Mouse could beat up Superman http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0092005/quotes?qt0404616

But instead I just dropped it.

The teacher’s answer was very skillful. It shut down the inquiry about his personal life, which is not appropriate in a music class, it was honest, and it didn’t sound like “None of your fucking business, punk!” The awkwardness was kept to a minimum and people were able to move on. It did not put his employment in jeopardy, which is a very real possibility in the U.S.

Nobody owes “the movement” any outing of themselves as an atheist if it is not in their own best interests. You should do that only if you have decided that the benefits outweigh the risks for you personally.

However, even if you feel safe about it, you should not interject it into a professional relationship where it is not appropriate. At work, the task you are hired for is what you must always concentrate on. Personal information is sometimes harmless, but it almost always carries risks of interfering with your primary purpose for being there.

Once in a while in a counseling session, a patient would ask me about my religion, and I would respond by re-clarifying what my role was, as a mirror and a guide to help him learn about himself. If he wanted to talk about how his religion was pertinent to the problems we were working on, I was comfortable listening and responding with clarifying and focusing questions. But the session was about him, not me. It’s possible to be opaque without sounding dismissive or hostile; it just takes being calm and sure of your role in the relationship.

On seeing this I immediately thought of half a dozen things to say, but people in different time zones have already said them all. Great minds thinking alike and all that …

What would I have done?

If I was in Europe I’d have simply said I was an atheist, unless the context suggested that the matter was particularly sensitive.

If I was in the US I would answer that my beliefs were private, unless the context made clear that I could be more open.

It’s not a western thing, but an American thing. In most European countries, the students wouldn’t even bother to ask. Religion just isn’t discussed like that. Not because it’s taboo or anything, but no one cares in the first place.

I can’t resist. I have a few comments.

First, for the sake of further context (though comments about students of different ages have been insightful, interesting, and helpful as well), the student in the story is in 7th grade.

Second, a legal comment: Teachers can be fired, obviously, for not being effective. As I understand it, within this broad statement is the implication that if a student body is uncomfortable with a teacher, and the teacher thus has no rapport with it, the teacher is not capable of being effective and can therefore be fired. This is why the community in which one teaches matters so much, because there is the potential to be fired for being open about something that students disagree with to the point of destroying the teacher’s ability to teach.

Third, as someone who is open with my students about (so far) everything else they’ve asked, I think that one’s religion should be a non-taboo question (the countries I’m hearing of in which no one asks because they don’t care seems ideal). It seems to me extraordinarily educationally valuable to impart to students the understanding that good people come from a diverse range of cultures, ethnicities, and beliefs. I’ve had many opportunities to educate on questions irrelevant to music, and I hope that (perhaps when I’m tenured) I’ll have the additional chance someday to show students, as Hemant has, that people can be good without god.

(On the other hand, arguments about not interjecting such things into one’s professional environment are very strong. Perhaps my desire to be an open, honest, and good person that happens to be atheist is perverse and unnecessary.)

Thanks to everyone for their support, thoughtful critiques, and personal stories.

I think he did the right thing. Dodged the question without disrupting the class.

As for saying you should answer honestly to make Atheism more mainstream, I fear this is not yet realistic (though hopefully it will be someday). How is this accomplished by making the Atheist teacher an easy target for trumped up dismissal? Now is not the time. Not when we’re still fighting illegal prayers in many public schools and football games quite often become venues for prostelyzing. We must beat those battles before a public school teacher can safely say, “I’m Atheist.”

America has one hell of a long way to go for personal freedom despite what’s written into law and we’ve lost a lot of ground on that in recent decades. Sad but true. We need to regain it first.

It’s also true that many Protestants consider Catholism (and others, see Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons) as anything but Christian and are highly insulted if you lump them in with Christians. My mother blatantly terms Catholics as such because “they worship graven images” due to love for icons of Jesus and Mary. To her, praying to the Virgin was sacreligious in and of itself because she was the mother of god but not god. She pretty much thinks Catholics the spawn of Satan. Is it any wonder that her and my Roman Catholic French Canadian grandmother hated each other vehemently, especially since Dad had to convert to marry her?

It is really stupid the shit that separates people.

Hugh Kramer wrote

Until that time it hadn’t occurred to me that anyone had such a parochial religious attitude that they didn’t consider Catholics to be Christians.

That issue arose in the hearing on John Freshwater’s termination as a middle school science teacher in Ohio. A former student of Freshwater testified that he heard Freshwater tell other students that “Catholics aren’t Christians.” That attitude is very common among fundamentalist Protestant Christians in the U.S. “Whore of Babylon” is an epithet I’ve heard used to refer to the Catholic church.

Easiest question ever.

“No.”

As an elementary teacher and school principal many years ago, I was frequently asked my religion. My answer was, “My religion was for my knowledge alone.” It seemed to satisfy the students in my care.

Grammatically, “Are you Christian or Catholic?” could make sense if it’s not meant to imply that these are the only two options. If a salesperson at a knife store asks you, “Do you fish or hunt?” they don’t mean that all people either fish or hunt. Defining “Catholic” as separate from “Christian” probably isn’t correct, though, unless you’re using a more evangelical definition of “Christian.”

Krisya wrote:

I think you did the right thing. I would never want a student to feel alienated in my class because s/he felt I was advocating a religious viewpoint opposite his/her own.

Krisya, I think you’ve nailed it, and so succinctly 🙂

I’m a teacher as well, and whether we like it or not, sharing our personal ‘stances’ on things like religion can make students feel alienated. And that is a simple (and frustrating) truth. Being a music teacher as well, religion or discussion of religion really has no place in my classroom ~ music is one of the ONLY things that has the power to bring people together…..

And part of that power has to do with the fact that things like religion and politics are basically left at the door and all energy is devoted to collectively creating something beautiful and inspiring and communal.

It’s extremely important, imo, to demonstrate to kids that there are things that can bring all of us together…….in spite of such differences like religion/politics.

I’ve been asked on several occasions what my religion is in the classroom. As a science teacher, I’m somewhat used to giving enigmatic answers in attempts to boost discussion while keeping a poker face. I’ve found this to be the best way to handle things, because some students will definitely still get hung up on the god thing.

Plus, without tenure, don’t touch anything remotely like controversy unless you trust your admin or don’t want your job anymore. If I had tenure though, I’d probably be more open. And have a freethinking club.

As a student, my first philosophy teacher (the only one the small community college I got my AA at had) flatly refused to tell anyone what he believed, about just about anything. (Though he did occasionally tell us things he didn’t believe.)

While I don’t think this would work for all teachers of philosophy, I think it helped this particular teacher keep the emphasis on critical thinking, rather than giving the students any kind of model of what a critical thinker would end up with.

I am a college philosophy teacher and this is exactly what I do. My job is not to make my students atheists any more than it is to make them empiricists, determinists, existentialists or any of the other philosophical views I discuss. By saying too much about what I think on contentious philosophical topics, I feel that I would be putting my authority as a teacher behind that view, making the students more disposed to agree with me (or to disagree, depending on how they view authority!). But my job is to help them think critically for themselves. I do play “devil’s advocate” with everyone, which is really fun and far more educational than if I were to prattle on about my own views. On the rare occasions when students do ask me about my own religious views, I just tell them why I don’t like to give my own views in class (i.e., what I just said) and say I’d be happy to discuss it after the term is over.

If my students become more thoughtful Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, etc. who are able to think critically about their beliefs, I have done my job even though I disagree with them. What actually annoys me more are the non-religious or atheist students who have bad arguments for their views, since there are so many good arguments for these views!