You Know It’s a Myth

As an outspoken Atheist, I have no problem with the message, I just don’t think it will do any good.
We all enjoy a celebration in the middle of winter and the ‘Birth of the Sun’ is as good an excuse as any.
I think putting a tree, a yule log and maybe a Hanukkah candelabra into the picture as well would have made this message more potent – on the lines of:
Whatever your myth, it is a time for good will

Is that Mo on the middle camel?

I agree, Hemant. I’m going through the Rolodex of friends and family in my head, and I can’t think of one person this wouldn’t piss off, or at least annoy.

If we want to be effective, we have to incorporate ourselves and our beliefs into the popular culture, we can’t try creating our own (Kind of like the pagan characteristics adopted by the early Christians)

Ideal sign, in my opinion: “We may not believe he is the Son of God, but we can celebrate what he stood for: Merry Christmas everyone.”

I know, Blasphemous!

The message is a little on the pointless side to me. It will antagonize the sheeple and little-else. Another missed opportunity i think.

I still celebrate Christmas. A secular, materialistic Christmas, like most Christians do as well 😉

I have some ideas actually.

-Educate people about important people in science history
-Visit a Museum or Zoo rather than a church
-Gift giving can stay (but maybe give educational gifts?)
-Donate some money to an international non-profit organization like kiva or a science research group
-Instead of a fancy meal, donate the food you would have eaten in canned form to a local food pantry
-Don’t bash religion, its not an anti-religious holiday, its a pro-reason holiday.

I’ve posted it on my blog, if anybody has any ideas to add or change let me know, I think we should try to make this happen!
http://inquiry-blasphemy-and-magic-missiles.blogspot.com/2010/11/celebrating-reason.html

There a million times when it makes good sense to be critical of a religious belief. Christmas is not one of them.

No matter what an atheist billboard says, we will be accused of “attacking” the religious. Even then, it matters to me that we aren’t, or that when we are we do so for good reason. I don’t count Christmas as a good reason or a good time.

I’m not great at catchphrases, but there must be a million ways to give a positive message that simultaneously reminds folks that most people celebrate Christmas as a secular holiday, even when they have pretenses of Christianity. I like Solstice and I think it should be a time of coming together with family and loved ones. I think we can leave aside the “you know you’re wrong, don’t you?” messages for once.

I don’t really want to celebrate his standing for vicarious redemption of sins, because I don’t think it’s in anyway worth of celebration.

The holiday that celebrates that is Easter, which is far less universal than solstice celebrations. The upshot is that what Christmas “means” in the minds of people has very little to do with the Bible at this point. Ask a dozen people what Chrstimas means to them and I’d be surprirsed if more than 2 or 3 mention “Christ coming to forgive out sins”. Far more likely is that you’d get “It’s a time of harmony, a time for family, food and gifts etc.”

I think it is fine.
Although, it probably will make baby Jesus cry.

I probably would have said
“This Season, celebrate FELLOWSHIP, FAMILY, and REASON”.

One more line would have changed the tone considerably.

”
You KNOW it’s a Myth
This Season, Celebrate REASON.
See atheists.org for ideas.
”

Gives exposure to the website instead of hiding the URL in the corner. Points to ideas for HOW to celebrate reason.

I always thought that we had Christmas to celebrate my birthday.

I celebrate Christmas because I know it’s a myth. Same reason we sing songs about Santa and Rudolph! It’s fun!

I always liked Robert Ingersoll’s Agnostic Christmas. I’m thinking about using it to make a holiday card.

“This is the festival of the sun-god, and as such let its observance be universal.

This is the great day of the first religion, the mother of all religions — the worship of the sun.

Sun worship is not only the first, but the most natural and most reasonable of all. And not only the most natural and the most reasonable, but by far the most poetic, the most beautiful.

The sun is the god of benefits, of growth, of life, of warmth, of happiness, of joy. The sun is the all-seeing, the all-pitying, the all-loving.

This bright God knew no hatred, no malice, never sought for revenge.

All evil qualities were in the breast of the God of darkness, of shadow, of night. And so I say again, this is the festival of Light. This is the anniversary of the triumph of the Sun over the hosts of Darkness.

Let us all hope for the triumph of Light — of Right and Reason — for the victory of Fact over Falsehood, of Science over Superstition.

And so hoping, let us celebrate the venerable festival of the Sun. –“”

I say good for American Atheists. There needs to be an organization that doesn’t pull punches. A bold and even righteous tone in delivering an atheist message gives shelter to all the “polite” people to make converts. There was room for Malcolm X as well as Marty King in the civil rights movement. There is also room for “hard” atheists as well as “soft” humanists in the freethought movement.

It might be useful to have ministers as the target of the ad so that the question could be asked of them why they don’t level with their congregation and tell them the truth about the veracity of the Christmas story.

With the exception of fundamentalists, most seminary trained ministers understand the lack of historical accuracy concerning the Christmas narrative in the Gospels and don’t consider the pop-culture version of the story to be true or accurate.

By putting ministers on the spot and asking why a religion that claims truth as its main value allows people to go on believing falsehoods about its primary stories could have a much greater impact, especially if people show up at their church’s Christmas services asking the minister what the billboard means.

Something like: “ASK your minister why seminary taught that the Christmas story was a MYTH.” or something like that.

JohnFrost says:

I celebrate Christmas because I know it’s a myth. Same reason we sing songs about Santa and Rudolph! It’s fun!

Correct! We’re not celebrating reason, we’re celebrating pretending.

This season, celebrate pretending. But don’t kid yourself.

Move that Overton window.

I love it! I think the message is aimed at ‘Christmas and Easter’ Christians who are pretty much de facto atheists in ordinary life. It is simple, to the point and slightly jarring, which is a good quality because it makes you do a double-take and then think about the message.

As for Hemant’s criticism:

I don’t think anyone wants to change how they celebrate the holidays. Does celebrating reason involve giving up trees? Presents? Telling children about Santa Claus?

Where is this sign asking people to give up these things? Celebrations of light and life during the winter months pre-date Christianity, as do most of the ‘Christmas’ symbols such as the tree and the star. If we are celebrating reason, what could be more rational than celebrating a real, observable event such as the winter solstice for instance?

Do you think there is something inherently ‘irrational’ about decorating one’s home, having family round and giving gifts to those you love? I must say, Hemant, you make reason sound very bleak if you think it involves giving up celebration.

For the past few years to battle the Xmas lights, I made a 6′ foot peace sign out of PVC pipe and wrapped it with Xmas lights. We always got positive comments from our neighbors and people that past by. I tried to get our local UU fellowship to erect one, but they thought it was too controversial.

I’d like it better by simply changing it to “You know it’s a myth, right?”

Everyday Atheist, I like that version better too. Questions are often better than blanket declarations.

What’s the goal with billboards like this? I certainly prefer ones that open up a question for discussion, or remind people that not everybody shares their superstitions, or that remind people that nonbeleivers are still nice people. This one just comes across as a “poke in the eye”. It’ll stir up controversy, but I dont’ think it will accomplish much that’s positive.

I am new to the site…I was intrigued by the title of being a friendly atheist.

I look at this ad, and it reminds me of a key position I take on all things religion. The bill board, and “message” has the very same effect as any religious bill board does and that leads me to the idea that I see proclaimed atheists as the same as any other organized religion.

The billboard is to send a message? that one thought over the other is right? Then with the outcome to perhaps sway people (indoctrinate?) others into the belief of atheism?

I will add, that I do not subscribe to any organized religion. I do not believe in any being as God. That I lay all my beliefs in science for creation. But I do have beliefs, ones of cross breed of physicist meets neuroscience as the beginning and never ending idea, how we are all connected. I take this idea as moral structure as well, with silly statements I have of having all civil and social justice as the corner stone.

But does that make me an Atheist? I have beliefs, and I feel that anyone who has beliefs isn’t, and don’t we all have beliefs?

I am still intrigued in the blog though, so I will continue with the read…

I think this billboard, and all the other “atheist advertising” are, generally a good idea, and together they do one important thing: get people to think.

Apart from bible-belt, fundie types, there seems to be a general belief/acceptance that religion is good, and belief in God is common/default.

I say this, because I’ve noticed that when an atheist “comes out”, people seem to have the shocked response of, “Well… you HAVE to believe in SOMETHING!”. As if faith (belief without evidence) is a good thing. But people who hold this position:
1) have simply not examined what “belief”, “faith”, “evidence”, etc. mean
2) do not think critically
3) are afraid of abandoning cherished beliefs

The billboards may not help with 1 or 2, but they seem to make 3 less socially objectionable.

I’m an atheist, and most of my family are non-practicing Christians. And we celebrate Christmas. And by this I mean, we get together, eat too much, exchange presents, etc. But for most of us, that’s it. And we do that, I think, mainly because we’re all able to get off from work, and we’ve been doing it forever. Inertia is a powerful thing!

So… Yes, this billboard will piss some people off. And give Bill O’Reilly more fuel for his made-up “war on Christmas” fire. But getting people to think is a good start. And reasonable, friendly atheists like us can help spark conversations and guide them in positive directions.

@Denis Robert: I initially agreed with Hemant, but after reading your comment, I have to agree with you. I’m tired of being PC when it comes to my lack of belief. Few theists are when it comes to their beliefs. The difference between our kind of advocacy (at least by those “friendly” atheists out there) and theirs will be passionate, reasoned argument rather than simply screaming the loudest.

I’ve never been a fan of Richard Dawkins. I’ve previously found him to be divisive and much too “angry” to be a positive influence on the freethinker movement. However, last night I was listening to “Point of Inquiry,” the podcast put out by the Center for Inquiry. On there they had Australian skeptic Warren Bonett. He made a good point when he said he was troubled that many atheists found Dawkins too “strident” simply because he argued “more forcefully.”

So yes, I suppose this might upset and anger some Christians, but so what? The message is not for them.

I think this one might work better:

http://3harpiesltd.com/images/itsagirl.jpg

@ dave

I get what your saying, but don’t we all believe in something? to not believe in a god, is to believe in that.

I do not believe in a god, but does that make me an atheist? perhaps. I am exploring that theory.

I think most people get to hung up on labels. I have faith, I have faith that if I keep at something it will get done. I have faith, that good choices, and giving of ones self within a community is part of being a good human.

Does the worth of faith and belief only lie within an organized religion?

As for celebrating or not celebrating things is cultural and ritualistic. We go out to Chinese food on Christmas day as a family, just the four of us (parental units and children) most people think this is very odd but its our ritual and we love it. Is it wrong to have rituals?

I think the idea of telling someone that their belief system is wrong, is wrong. I am perfectly ok with a religion based organized belief system as long as there is no indoctrination going on.

I just feel that this ad has a lot of the indoctrination, you are wrong approach.

Let them worship Ralph the head of lettuce as long as there is no trying to brainwash me into thinking it.

I support antagonistic messages that get people thinking, thereby causing them to question their beliefs (I’m not sure this one does). Try this instead:

Worship me, or I’ll torture you forever – Love Jesus. Luke 12:4-5 (paraphrased)

Holy cow – would that raise a firestorm. But, in one short sentence it illustrates a giant stinking turd in Christian theology. Christians would scream about the billboard, but they could not rationally deny that it accurately reflects their absurd beliefs.

That could lead to a very interesting national debate, which might cause more people distance themselves from nutty Christian dogma.

Though highly offensive, it’s a truthful statement. My mother always taught me to tell the truth.

I like the billboard, and would love to see one up in my city. I’ve given up the idea of a religious Christmas long ago, but we still have a tree and presents and go the whole glitzy nine yards. We even blare the Boney M. Christmas CD. It’s more of a Festivus for the Restivus thing. Not a single grace or prayer is said, even among the extended family. And we do the Santa thing too, the kids are going to eventually grow out of it. Beats telling them there’s a Jeebus.

Hoverfrog,

Surely Christians accept that the nativity is a myth anyway.

No we don’t accept that it is a myth. The vast majority of Christians do believe that Jesus was born of the virgin Mary in Bethlehem and that they were visited by wise men from the East. Beyond that any differences in the narrative are just minor details.

Oh, and I forgot to say: if this sort of advertising had been around long ago, I might well have admitted to being an atheist some years earlier than I actually did.

I don’t think Christmas is the right holiday to use for something like this. For many people it has become pretty secularized as it is. We know what’s actually being celebrated, but what it’s really used for is gathering the family together, having fancy food and exchanging presents. You can do that without really emphasizing any of the religious aspects.

I think the message is pretty clear:

“Christians, even if you believe it is true, it’s still – per definition – a myth.”

If people start treating it that way, as a personal belief instead of something that must be true, that would be Reason triumphant. As it is, a lot of people don’t realize that the presents, Santa, the family gatherings and all of those things can happen independent of the truth of the statement: “Jesus is the suicidal form of god”.

Though, if you want a happier message, I suggest:

“It’s a myth! Where’s my present?”

It’s sort of about reason – and gifts are always fun!

Robert W.

No we don’t accept that it is a myth. The vast majority of Christians do believe that Jesus was born of the virgin Mary in Bethlehem and that they were visited by wise men from the East.

Sorry but I don’t believe you. I don’t believe that people are that gullible or stupid to take this story literally. Obviously some might be but they are the sort of people who still believe in Santa.

As somebody who lives in the southern USA, I’m quite certain that if I were to walk up to the average Christian and suggest to them that Mary wasn’t a virgin, Jesus wasn’t born in manger, and he wasn’t visited by three wise men, their first inclination would be to punch me. With any luck they would be able to restrain themselves and not actually injure me, but I’d still be painted as a dirty heathen. People take their religion mythology seriously down here.

I love this billboard. It is important to point out that a savior was not born on Christmas Day, but we can still celebrate while putting our faith in reason.

Hoverfrog,

No reason to be embarrassed for me. I’m perfectly content in my faith.

@gsw

I think putting a tree, a yule log and maybe a Hanukkah candelabra into the picture as well would have made this message more potent – on the lines of:
Whatever your myth, it is a time for good will

I love the idea, but here’s a better tagline:

“Whatever your reason, celebrate the season!”

First point: Like others have mentioned, all atheist bilboards generate more heat than light. It’s not as if we are trying to choose between this advertisement and some well recieved(by the pulbic), highly effective advert ran previously.

Second: My suggestion for a better bilboard – “Drop the myth, keep the fun, Merry Christmas Everyone”

Sorry but I don’t believe you. I don’t believe that people are that gullible or stupid to take this story literally.

I’ve noticed that it tends to be just an embellished story when they’re trying to argue with an atheist that their religion has some rational basis but when talking amongst themselves the virgin birth and all the other magic is completely real.

This is the most idiotic atheist billboard I’ve seen to date.

Just noticed Robert W’s comment:

No we don’t accept that it is a myth. The vast majority of Christians do believe that Jesus was born of the virgin Mary in Bethlehem and that they were visited by wise men from the East. Beyond that any differences in the narrative are just minor details.

Minor details? Really? You need to study your bible a bit more carefully. Perhaps this will help: The Star of Bethlehem Identified

@JSug,

“Whatever your reason, celebrate the season!”

Well said…

alright, I wrote one- but the only instruments I play use my mouth so I can’ sing and make music. I was going to put a video on youtube……..you’ll just have to live with the lyrics for now

to God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen
winter is upon us now its time to celebrate

in the door bring love and cheer and sweep out all the hate

whatever your reason may be, celebrate the season here

celebrate what brings you cheer, what brings you cheer. Celebrate what brings you cheer.

The earth’s twenty three point four five degree axis tilt is the reason why

we find this snowy season here and the leaves and flowers die

all around you there are joyful things just open up your eyes

celebrate what brings you cheer, what brings you cheer, celebrate what brings you cheer.

You must decide for yourself to join in or not. If you’ll believe in Hanukkah or a babe found in a cot

no matter what your chosen myth, put goodwill in your thoughts

celebrate what brings you cheer, what brings you cheer. Celebrate what brings you cheer.

You may believe no passed down story fits into your life.

but Santa, Christmas trees and gifts don’t even hurt a nun.

So drop the myth and keep the fun Merry Christmas everyone

Celebrate what brings you cheer, what brings you cheer. Celebrate what brings you cheer.

I don’t like it. The “You KNOW” isn’t just patronizing, it’s glaringly dishonest. Most Christians don’t “know” that at all—they genuinely believe.

I agree. Mark Twain famously said, “Faith is believing what you know ain’t so.”

That quote has never made sense to be. Faith is, by definition, belief without evidence. If you believe something, then you think its true (or probably true).

CatBallou:

Most Christians don’t “know” that at all—they genuinely believe.

Methodissed:

Mark Twain famously said, “Faith is believing what you know ain’t so.”
That quote has never made sense to be. Faith is, by definition, belief without evidence. If you believe something, then you think its true (or probably true).

I think the point noticed by CatBallou, and exploited to humorous effect by Twain, is the difference between believing something and believing that you believe it (first- and second-order beliefs).

We all occasionally have conflicts between first- and second-order beliefs. If a mother says her baby is the most beautiful in the world, her underlying first-order belief is probably something like, “this baby appeals to me more than any other,” an objective reflection of her subjective feelings for her own baby. If she were thinking about it carefully, she wouldn’t really expect that her baby would surpass every other on objective measures of beauty (whatever those might be). But her feelings for her own baby make her believe that she believes her baby is the most beautiful.

Someone might say to that mother, “you KNOW that other babies are just as beautiful,” to call attention to this conflict between first- and second-order beliefs. I think that’s essentially what the billboard is doing in the case of the Christian myths.

Christians believe (second order) that they believe (first order) the Christian myths. But a first-order belief in the Christian myths doesn’t follow from an honest examination of the evidence. So Christians maintain the second-order belief while avoiding an honest examination of the evidence that would expose them to first-order disbelief.

I’d wager to give it no more than 2 days from the time it is put up until somebody fucks with it. (vandalism)

Awesome Billboard! I agree with Samiimas that it is far far less confronting then the “accept Jesus or burn in hell” type billboards.

I would like even better the idea of “You KNOW it’s a Myth, RIGHT?” [adding the “, Right?” at the end] to pose a question to the sign-readers and help them keep down their defenses… but hey since I didn’t volunteer to help American Atheists decide this in advance, I’ll settle for where I am which is thrilled with the sign the way it is.

I agree with another reader who said signs like this decades ago would have helped him come out of the atheist closet sooner.

Also, I was a christian who DID really KNOW intellectually that the whole christ story made no sense, but I didn’t spend the time/effort to think more definitively about it and I mostly went through the motions as if I believed it for more than another 20 years! Signs like this would have helped me realize that there were others also questioning the sanity of the bible stories.

I say THANK YOU to American Atheists for being on the forefront. Thank you for picking a time (xmas) and place that will get LOTS of attention! Thank you for sharing sanity in a religiously insane country! News stations will carry this nationally, and kids watching tv will ask their parents: “Mommy, what’s a myth” and the initial crack will be placed in the wall of insular brainwashing that believers impose on their kids.

Awesome Billboard!

As it is, this billboard is a poke in the eye with a middle finger.

gsw, the second commenter had something going in the right direction, but it’s still antagonistic. S/He suggested:

Whatever your myth, it is a time for good will.

That sounds like, “Whatever silly, stupid beliefs you have, it is a time for good will”
That definitely does not set the stage for good will.

Then further down, Jeff P suggested:

“This Season, celebrate FELLOWSHIP, FAMILY, and REASON”

I suggest we clean up gsw’s and combine it with Jeff P’s so it says,

Whether you believe or not, this is a time for good will.
We can all celebrate Fellowship, Family, and Reason.

I have to take issue with the argument that the billboard is acceptable because some Christian billboards somewhere else are ghastly and revolting. That is a very juvenile way of thinking. You can’t make an insult into a wise thing to do by pointing at some other insult that is worse.

If you base your level of conduct on the level of someone else’s conduct, yours will definitely deteriorate.

This ad is annoying and adolescent, imo.

I have yet to see ANY ad/sign that rivals this one put up by the Seattle atheists last year:

“In this holiday season

let us remember

that kindness, charity & goodwill

transcend belief, creed or religion.”

Pitch-perfect, as far as I’m concerned.

Robert W. said:

All of these alleged inconsistencies are not contradictions and have been explained by biblical scholars for years.

Earlier in this comment section I suggested the following billboard idea (see my original post for my rationale):

“Worship me, or I’ll torture you forever – Love Jesus.” Luke 12:4-5 (paraphrased)

You seriously don’t see this glaring and incredibly absurd contradiction?

Actually, I know the answer to that question. It’s explained by the concept that psychologists call cognitive dissonance. It’s a phenomenal testament to the fallibility of the human mind.

Robert W:

Nice try but you should really not just go to atheist websites for soundbites on alleged discrepancies or contradictions in the Gospels.

So a 3500 word essay is a soundbite according to you? Given that the original nativity stories are shorter than that, what does that make them? Did you even bother to read the essay?

All of these alleged inconsistencies are not contradictions and have been explained by biblical scholars for years.

And the explanations for most of the actual inconsistencies (they are clearly present, whether you like or not) are pathetically bad, and acceptable only to those people who already want the story to be a historical event.

Kayla said:

The billboard may make some people question their belief, but since faith is based on a belief in the unknowable/unseen, it will not sway hardened Christians.

You’re absolutely correct. In fact it’s well understood in psychology that challenging people’s beliefs with strong evidence and logic can have the opposite unintended effect, i.e., they become even more certain.

As you noted, billboards may sway some people. A key consideration then is how we can make the greatest impact. Even if there aren’t many converts, there’s the benefit of elevating awareness in the public psyche.

Swaying (older) hardened Christians is not and should not be our goal. Trying to overcome a lifetime of neural wiring is nearly futile. However, very enthusiastic youth and young adults have potential from a biological standpoint. The less certain and less enthusiastic they are, the better our chances of positively influencing their plastic brains.

Stephen P.,

I did read the essay. It was the same arguments. Not so much evidence as questions from the author as to why he thought this couldn’t be true. In essence he is saying it couldn’t be true because I think it would be different. For example he looks at the stories from Matthew and Luke and claims that because one includes facts that the other does not then they both must be false. That is illogical at best.

Methodissed,

There is no inconsistency when you don’t paraphrase and take your comment out of context. Actually Luke 12:4-5 doesn’t even say what you have paraphrased. It is Jesus talking about not fearing what people can do to you in this life to the exclusion of God who is concerned with your eternal life.

If you really want to get into a discussion about Hell and God’s plan for salvation through Jesus Christ and how that is loving I would be happy to do so.

Stephen P. said:

There is no inconsistency when you don’t paraphrase and take your comment out of context.

I disagree, but even if I didn’t select the right verses, the bible and most churches teach that very contradiction. A loving person (perfect in love, mercy, and forgiveness) who tortures his own children (never showing mercy or forgiveness) is a glaring contradiction. Omni-benevolence and eternal torture are incompatible concepts.

If any human behaved that way toward his children, he would be incarcerated and vilified by society. Yet somehow it’s okay for the invisible man in the sky.

P.S. Nice job paraphrasing the discussion Samiimas

Robert,

Here is what i don’t understand about atheists who decry the concept of hell- You don’t believe in God anyway so you can’t believe in Hell and you don’t believe in souls. So why all the feigned outrage about it. It means nothing to you.

We’ve explained it to you many times, but you apparently keep ignoring our explanations. Why do you continue to feign confusion? Go back and re-read the comments on this post for details. Of course we don’t believe any of it is true. That doesn’t mean we don’t find the idea morally objectionable. Why should we not express outrage that theists continue to justify such horrible things? It bothers me that people in the 21st century are fine and dandy with eternal torture.

The one thing that I keep bringing up in these discussions and which keeps getting ignored is the grace of Jesus Christ and the effect that has on this concept of eternal damnation.

Robert, it hasn’t been ignored. Please read the comments I made on this post. I was quite clear that I don’t think your “grace” explanation makes the situation moral.

Christians are not fine and dandy with people suffering in Hell. That is why they evangelize and preach the Gospel.

No, but you’re fine and dandy with the concept of hell. You think that eternal torture is justified. Nathan even said he does not find the idea repulsive.

And I still believe that the outcry about Hell from atheists is feigned outrage even if it is over the notion that people believe in it. The reason it is feigned is because you intentionally ignore the way given to you and everyone else to avoid Hell.

I can’t speak for anyone else, but my outrage is not feigned. I really am disgusted by the concept of hell, not because I think it actually exists, but because I find it sad and disheartening that modern-day people would justify such a terrible thing. It’s basically the reason why I consider your whole religion immoral.

Robert W.

You are conventionality forgetting about the grace of Jesus Christ and that salvation is open to everyone. If you choose not to believe that is your free will.

Grace? You are joking.

You don’t believe in God anyway so you can’t believe in Hell and you don’t believe in souls. So why all the feigned outrage about it. It means nothing to you.

It means nothing to me because it doesn’t effect me, is that right? I’m a straight, white male. I do not like how gay people are sometimes treated as second class citizens and have to fight for the rights that I enjoy for free. I don’t like how people of colour are sometimes treated as second class citizens and have to fight for the rights that I enjoy for free. I don’t like how women are sometimes treated as second class citizens and have to fight for the rights that I enjoy for free. Some of us see something that is unjust and are outraged by it. Why is that so difficult to understand?

Now if you turn out to be wrong and you have a soul and you do spend eternity in Hell then you won’t be able to say its because you never heard the gospel, it will be because you rejected it and whose fault is that? You want God to change the rules for you?

Pascal’s Wager? Really?

I don’t believe in gods. I don’t believe in souls. I don’t believe in heaven or hell. I might be wrong, I don’t believe that I am but I just might be. If I am then I am in serious trouble because the god that you describe judges people not on our actions through life, not on how we treat others, give, respect or love those we come into contact with. No, your god would damn us for eternity because we didn’t bow down and worship him. Your god is a monster.

I think that if there is a God, He/She/It would prefer the company of atheists/agnostics over all the religious people that put so many words in His/Her/Its mouth.

Robert W.

I wasn’t mentioning Paschel’s wager and I’m not using that as a logical basis to believe.

Sure you were. You were saying “if you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing.”

you may think grace is a joke

I think it is a joke but it isn’t a very funny one.

grace is what Christianity is based upon.

Here is a simplified model of Christianity. The concept of “sin” puts people into debt. Jesus pays off that debt. We should all worship Jesus or he’ll foreclose on the payment he has already made with infinite interest. The problem is “sin” which only exists to justify the payment of this debt. Some of us just don’t feel guilty about being human.

you don’t belief there is anyone suffering in Hell so its not the smae thing to you.

More than this I don’t even believe that your scripture supports the idea that anyone is suffering in hell.

Of course I feel for when others are mistreated. I’m not saying you don’t.

I should think not.

if you think that Hell is a mythical place, then people believing in it don’t effect you

Really? I suppose that Fred Phelps picketing the funerals of soldiers or gay people with messages that they are in hell doesn’t effect anyone. I suppose that the fear indoctrinated into people so that they strive for heaven through martyrdom doesn’t effect me. I suppose that being told that I (and indeed everyone) is worthless and deserves eternal torture in hell doesn’t effect me. It effects me. It makes me angry.

It isn’t real suffering according to you so don’t compare it to suffering here on Earth that you see is real.

Emotions are real. Self-esteem is real. Being judged on what you believe rather than what you do is real.

Hoverfrog,

Sure you were. You were saying “if you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing.”

Paschel’s wager is typically mentioned as a logical basis to believe. That is not why I mentioned the effect of you being wrong in your beliefs. I was just mentioning the effect according to biblical principles not as a “wager”.

Here is a simplified model of Christianity. The concept of “sin” puts people into debt. Jesus pays off that debt. We should all worship Jesus or he’ll foreclose on the payment he has already made with infinite interest. The problem is “sin” which only exists to justify the payment of this debt. Some of us just don’t feel guilty about being human.

Wrong. Sin exists because man is imperfect and has missed the mark of God’s holiness and righteousness. That would mean constant separation from God but for grace through Jesus Christ.

There is no reason to feel guilty just because you are human. But as a human you are not perfect. I am sure you would agree to that. And when you look at the history of the human race, we clearly have evil in the world. So where do you think that comes from? It certainly didn’t come in being because Christians call that evil sin. It exists because humans engage in it.

Really? I suppose that Fred Phelps picketing the funerals of soldiers or gay people with messages that they are in hell doesn’t effect anyone. I suppose that the fear indoctrinated into people so that they strive for heaven through martyrdom doesn’t effect me. I suppose that being told that I (and indeed everyone) is worthless and deserves eternal torture in hell doesn’t effect me. It effects me. It makes me angry.

Emotions are real. Self-esteem is real. Being judged on what you believe rather than what you do is real.

Fred Phelps will be judged for his actions by God. I’m sure he will not like the results of that judgment. Terrorists who believe they will get to heaven by killing others are not mainstream Christians much less mainstream Muslims. They will be judged as well.

The bible is clear- Judge not lest yea be judged. I will agree that is one of the most ignored and violated passages in the Bible.

I a not judging you when I say that if you don’t believe in Jesus Christ as your savior you will not go to Heaven and the only other alternative is Hell. That is just the consequences of that decision based upon my belief system.

Methodissed,

Robert, you’re ignoring the contradiction (someone who is perfect in love, mercy, and forgiveness who tortures his own children – never showing mercy or forgiveness).

Your retort that we can think and behave in a certain way to avoid torture is irrelevant – the contradiction remains.

Of course I don’t view it as a contradiction at all. God, who gave us free will gives us the choice to be with him or not. If we choose not to be with him he won’t make us. Since we have souls, we must go somewhere for eternity. Heaven is with God and all that that entails. hell is without God and all that entails. Because of free will it is completely consistent with his loving nature and all righteousness. You have the choice, it is your’s entirely to make. I don’t view that immoral. Since the souls that are there don’t want to be with God and have rejected him, they are there by their own free will.

By the way, there is a significant school of thought in Biblical studies that Hell isn’t a torture chamber at all. It is separation from God. If that is so, would that change your view that is is immoral?

@Evelyn

I get what your saying, but don’t we all believe in something? to not believe in a god, is to believe in that.

I’m not sure what you mean. Of course “we all believe in something” (I believe the Earth orbits the Sun, I believe my name is Dave, I believe I’m a good singer). Or do you mean “we all believe in something supernatural”, or “we all believe in something religious”. If you mean something, as in anything, then you’re not saying much. Please let me know if I’m misunderstanding.

I do not believe in a god, but does that make me an atheist? perhaps. I am exploring that theory.

Yes it does. Atheist = One who is lacking in a belief in god(s). As opposed to claiming God (gods) does not exist. Those are two different things.

I think most people get to hung up on labels. I have faith, I have faith that if I keep at something it will get done. I have faith, that good choices, and giving of ones self within a community is part of being a good human.

I don’t get “hung up on labels” either. And I don’t want to get all semantic on you, but… the words we use have meaning, and we need to be clear (or at least in agreement) on what they mean. What do you mean by “faith”? In general, I take the word faith to mean, “Belief without evidence”. In that respect, I think that faith is not an especially virtuous thing. So, I would challenge your “good choices” statement is not faith, but a belief backed up by evidence – past experience, knowledge of social interaction, etc.

Does the worth of faith and belief only lie within an organized religion?

I don’t know what you mean by “the worth of faith and belief”. As I’ve defined them above, I do not see “faith” as a good thing. And actually, somewhat of a bad thing. If you can believe one thing (e.g. a supernatural creator) without evidence, what is to stop you from believing other things without evidence? As for “beliefs”; these are simply those concepts/propositions we hold as true. And I would also say that “belief” is different than “faith” – we hold/have belief for reasons (good, bad or indifferent). Therefore, I disagree with your statement that faith and belief only lie within organized religion. But I may be missing what you’re getting at.

As for celebrating or not celebrating things is cultural and ritualistic. We go out to Chinese food on Christmas day as a family, just the four of us (parental units and children) most people think this is very odd but its our ritual and we love it. Is it wrong to have rituals?

No. I never said it was wrong to have rituals.

I think the idea of telling someone that their belief system is wrong, is wrong. I am perfectly ok with a religion based organized belief system as long as there is no indoctrination going on.

When did I say someone’s belief system was wrong? Or were you referring to the billboard? It doesn’t say that either. And, I should admit, if someone’s belief system is demonstrably wrong, why would it be wrong to point that out? I understand that in American culture, religion tends to get a free ride – discussing is OK, but criticizing is not. And I disagree with that. Why should religion be above criticism? But personally, any disagreement I express is (usually) done respectfully.

I just feel that this ad has a lot of the indoctrination, you are wrong approach.

I very much disagree. How is the billboard indoctrinating? As I see it, it is simply stating what seems to be the opinion of the group – that the Christmas story is a myth.

Let them worship Ralph the head of lettuce as long as there is no trying to brainwash me into thinking it.

All well and good. But I think the majority of this “Christian nation” very subtly does exactly that. In my experience, when the average Christian is told by an atheist that he doesn’t believe in God, expresses a reaction similar to your “faith” position, like (as I said earlier), “What? Well, you have to believe in something!” What about the pledge of allegiance? What about “In God We Trust” on money? Need I go on?

If hell means being separated from god, hell sounds infinitely preferable to heaven. Good thing I don’t believe. So in the unlikely event that hell exists, I’ll be happy there.

Anna,

Understood. I can see your point.

Now to finish the analogy, those same people who are talking about stomping kittens tell you how to keep kittens from ever being stomped again. That is the Gospel.

Hoverfrog,

No. “Sin” doesn’t exist. It was made up, a “just so” story to explain a myth.

What you call bad behavior I call sin and bad behavior. Bad behavior with consequences here and a “sin” against God.

A lot of it comes from religion. Some from ignorance. Some from greed or ideology.

And some of it comes from pride, arrogance, hate, selfishness, etc.. But that doesn’t really answer the question.
If humans are basically good, why is there any evil?

Anna,

That is where we will have to differ. I see hell as a natural consequence of mankind’s sins not as something that God wants. So when I see that God, true to his nature as a God of justice and mercy gives us an out, then that is not immoral or unjust.

I know you won’t agree but I have enjoyed our conversation.

Robert W. said:

I see hell as a natural consequence of mankind’s sins not as something that God wants. So when I see that God, true to his nature as a God of justice and mercy gives us an out, then that is not immoral or unjust.

In the eyes of Christians, God always gets the credit, and never gets the blame. These dialogs clearly illustrate what psychologists call cognitive dissonance and belief perseverance, i.e., you’re unfounded beliefs are immune to logic, reason, and evidence.

As an imperfect being, you’re ignoring your own fallibility, i.e., you may well be wrong. This is normal and natural, and an extremely unfortunate byproduct of our unintelligent design.

The study of human fallibility is a humbling exercise that few people can genuinely pursue, because psychologically, the rational conclusions are too painful to bear. As a result, mythology and superstition persist.

Robert W. said:

What a wonderful description of the atheists on this site. For example, when after being presented with evidence they claim that it must be extraordinary in order to convince them.

You don’t have evidence Robert, and you certainly haven’t presented any here. You have an old storybook that says your invisible friend is real.

And yes, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. It is irrational to think otherwise. Your comment suggests that you value the notion of accepting extraordinary claims based on weak evidence. That’s a recipe for gullibility.

Robert W. said:

Of course there is evidence and I have presented it multiple times on this blog.

Not strong evidence, and certainly not extraordinary evidence to match your extraordinary claims.

So does it trouble you that you embrace a recipe for gullibility, i.e., accepting weak evidence to support extraordinary claims? What could you not believe on faith and/or weak evidence?

Robert W. said:

You calling the evidence weak doesn’t make it so. I disagree with your characterization of the evidence.

Disagree all you want. Science has done a wonderful job of demonstrating what constitutes strong evidence, and you don’t have it.

You rely on unsupported presuppositions (your old storybook is factual), anecdotes (more stories), and weak and invalid logic (demonstrated above by your unwillingness to acknowledge a glaring contradiction).

Further, you’ve admonished people for wanting extraordinary evidence to support your extraordinary claims.

You can feel proud knowing that your irrational beliefs remain untarnished.

Methodissed,

You rely on unsupported presuppositions (your old storybook is factual), anecdotes (more stories), and weak and invalid logic (demonstrated above by your unwillingness to acknowledge a glaring contradiction).

Not so. Have you studied the works of William Lane Craig or Norman Geisler? Have you examined the archeology evidence that confirm a good portion of the events in the Bible? If it wasn’t contained in the Bible, would you routinely simply disregard eyewitness testimony?

The Bible is held to a higher standard of proof in every respect by those who don’t want to believe it.

You may not want to answer it, but I did see that you ignored my last question to you.

Robert W.

He created humans with free will. It is that freedom which causes problems, but it is also that freedom which allows us to love him by our free choice. When humans take that free will and choose to separate themselves from God, they end up in Hell.

I doubt it but if you’re right then that has to be about the stupidest plan ever. I mean at least make yourself apparent so that “free willed” people get to make an informed decision rather than say “I can’t see any gods here, I’m not about to believe in some old stories”. Also what makes you think that you have free will?

when after being presented with evidence

Hang on. Evidence? Are you suggesting that you have evidence for gods? How can this be when you haven’t even defined what you mean by “god”? How can you provide evidence for something that eludes an honest description? No, I think you mean “justification” rather than “evidence”. If you have evidence then lets examine it and assess it against competing hypotheses.

Yes I am the same Robert and we are having the same discussion. And it appears we have reached the same point. The evidence and reasons I have to believe is what I consider to be strong and compelling. You all dismiss it. That is fine. We will not change each others mind but we will speak again.

As we ended the last time. I give you my sincere prayers and wish God’s blessings upon you.

Robert,

That is where we will have to differ. I see hell as a natural consequence of mankind’s sins not as something that God wants. So when I see that God, true to his nature as a God of justice and mercy gives us an out, then that is not immoral or unjust. I know you won’t agree but I have enjoyed our conversation.

True, we will never agree on morality, but at least I hope I have helped clarify why atheists find the concept of hell immoral. I do hope that it is sufficient so that you won’t be commenting a few weeks/months from now about how perplexed you are that we are so offended by something we don’t think exists.

Robert:

Yes I am the same Robert and we are having the same discussion. And it appears we have reached the same point. The evidence and reasons I have to believe is what I consider to be strong and compelling. You all dismiss it. That is fine. We will not change each others mind but we will speak again.

I have a suggestion. Next time we speak again, let’s start at this point. We’ve told you why your reasons for belief are unsatisfactory. You’re smart enough that the weakness of your position should be obvious. So next time, instead of just continuing to argue as though you had a leg to stand on, how about offering some kind of response to our counter-arguments? How about a little outside reading to inform your opinion?

Robert:

He created humans with free will. It is that freedom which causes problems, but it is also that freedom which allows us to love him by our free choice. When humans take that free will and choose to separate themselves from God, they end up in Hell.

Here’s the problem. According to your theology:
1. God designed the mind of man, to the minutest details.
2. God knows the future.
3. God created a place of everlasting suffering for those who become separated from him (originally Lucifer and his angels, but eventually man as well).
4. It is not the will of God that any should suffer.
5. Everything that happens is in accordance with God’s plan.

From 1 and 2, it follows that God knew mankind would rebel, since he had to put the ability to rebel into our minds in the first place when he designed them – after all, where else would we get our abilities from, before the fall?

If rebellion leads to separation from God, then from 1, 2, and 3, it follows that God knew even before making mankind that some people would wind up in hell.

However, if 4 is true, the only way that 1, 2, and 3 could all be true is if 5 is not. Either it is God’s plan that some will suffer, and thus 4 is not true, or it isn’t God’s plan that some will suffer, and thus something outside of God’s plan has superseded his will and 5 is not true.

This theology is internally contradictory, and it’s just the basic outline. Once you throw in more details about God’s personality and attributes it becomes even more impossibly muddled. Either the type of god you believe in does not exist, or it is able to transcend logic (and therefore utterly immune to any sort of investigation and incapable of being trusted).

Listen,I am a church goer and this sign is descrimination against believers. Lord Jesus Christ the only son of god is real.I believe i will have some followers.If you do not believe in the most powerful thing there is then you are a speck of dirt and the Lord is not appreciating every minute that sign is up.No you are not friendly you probably did something to convince the person who allowed this untrue sign to put it up.All i am saying is TAKE THAT SIGN DOWN ! i am demanding it.
-Mary Leroy

Believe what you will. This sort of thing gives me excellent material for my Sunday school class. But still, I always make sure to emphasize to my students that Jesus taught tolerance and forgiveness. Peace, everybody. Enjoy whatever you are celebrating – or not.

Those who understand a myth to be a story which is true on the inside, but not (necessarily) on the outside, are free to celebrate both “reason” and “the reason for the season”— the logos and the logos made flesh (whether or not all the stories surrounding the life of Jesus are historically accurate—and whether or not Darwin was on the right track with regard to the origin of the species). Merry Christmas to all, in any event! 🙂

http://www.thefourprecepts.com/propublish/myth-3.jpg

i just spent the last hour reading this blog post, and the comments. thanks for a great post, and a lively conversation in the comments section. it further cemented my belief that religious people are incapable of reason and logic. i’m glad i’m an atheist. cheers, and more power.