A Megachurch Pastor Has the Courage to Come Out

When I used to be a Christian, I was kind of in the “its just another fleshly urge that must be resisted”. I’m guessing that’s how this will turn out. He has a wife and kids, and so people will say “look!” he’s resisting Satan.

I’ll be following this story closely.

Thank you for having the courage to come out 🙂 Please reach out to those children that are hurting. You will be a great help to them and others 🙂 Please know that I only keep good thoughts for you and your family. Your children must be proud to have such a brave and wise father 🙂

When the title said “Come out”, I got all excited! Then I saw he came out as gay, not as an atheist. Bummer.

It’s a good start. I’d say that where he goes from here can potentially make or break this decision, though. He should keep his guard up.

Y’all know that “megachurch” doesn’t inevitably mean “bigoted”, right? Although it’s hard to know with the non-denominationals, as far as I can tell the Church in the Now hasn’t been one of the gay-hating types.

The responses on Swilley’s blog are interesting. Many are from vocally supportive parishioners, and aren’t trotting out the “hate the sin, love the sinner” crap. Then again, most of the blog commenters seem averse to saying the words “gay” or “homosexual”, so…? I guess we’ll have to wait and see how this story plays out in the weeks and months to come, and how much of the congregation stays.

James says:

for the overall part, he has done nothing to help people.

I strongly disagree. Swilley’s coming-out is important because it’s fundamentally different from the Ted Haggards and Eddie Longs of the evangelical world. He’s not apologizing for being gay or seeking forgiveness for sexual sin or scandal. That alone will open a lot of eyes and minds. (Plus, his ex-wife is openly encouraging, and apparently isn’t afraid to say “shit” in front of the congregation. How refreshing!)

From what I’ve seen, he’s getting a lot of support. Lets cross our fingers for the best for him instead of sitting back and expecting to watch another example of hateful Christian bigotry, yeah?

Hemant, I’m surprised at you for this presumptive statement:

But that’s all about to come to an end for Swilley

How do you know this will end for him, the way things ended for (for example) Ted Haggard? Haggard was caught and accused of specific acts that betrayed the people who looked to him. Swilley came out voluntarily to reveal himself to his congregation. Big difference in how these two were made public.

Personally I expected a portion of his congregation to leave, but I judging from the initial response on his blog, I expect a goodly portion to stand by him and come to a different understanding of the Christian message toward all people.

He may well be knocked down, but I don’t think he’ll be knocked out.

I have little sympathy for Christianity in general, but I commend Swilley for his honesty and hope he can bring a difference into evangelical Christianity.

Good on him for coming out — I hope all goes well, and that he can use his position to educate and instill some compassion in people who might otherwise have never had the opportunity to truly learn.

And yeah, the “megachurch = fundamentalist evangelicals” is a tempting leap to make (because often it’s true), but it’s not necessarily true.

I did some poking around on Swilley’s blog, and from what I was able to find, the theology doesn’t seem too bad. Considering that most evangelicals are all about exclusivity, this is somewhat refreshing:

But even though I believe that Jesus is ultimately the one way to God, I do not believe that all the Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs, Hare Krishnas, agnostics and atheists, etc. are all going to eventually walk down the aisle of a Christian church and pray the sinner’s prayer and confess Romans 10:9 and 10…nor do I believe that they are damned and going to a place called hell if they don’t.

In recent years I have particularly developed a greater appreciation for the Apostles’ Creed, which is accepted by both the Roman Catholic and Protestant Church (the Greek Orthodox Church favors the nearly identical Nicene Creed) as an official confession of Christianity. In both creeds (and this is true for all the other ancient Christian creeds) there is nothing mentioned about the devil, or a “rapture”, or a “tribulation period”, or about Israel becoming a nation in 1948, or anything about hell and eternal damnation. The older Roman Catholic version of the Apostles’ Creed used to contain the phrase “He descended to hell”, but the Modern English Version uses the more Biblically accurate phrase “He descended to the dead”, because true Hebrew and Greek scholars cannot deny anymore that the Hebrew “sheol”, and the Greek “hades” should never have been interpreted as “hell”, because they simply mean the grave, or more specifically, “the unseen”.

It seems like he believes we’ll all accept Jesus at some point after death, but if he’s ditched hell and damnation, I consider that leaps and bounds ahead of other Christian groups, morally speaking. Still full of supernatural woo, but at least it’s a step in the right direction.

true Hebrew and Greek scholars cannot deny anymore that the Hebrew “sheol”, and the Greek “hades” should never have been interpreted as “hell”, because they simply mean the grave, or more specifically, “the unseen”

I’m glad he makes this distinction, on intellectual as well as moral grounds. I’d disagree if he’s implying that early Christianity didn’t have a hell (in fact, for the first few centuries hell often had a much stronger Biblical basis since the Apocalypse of Peter was accepted), but it’s equally true that most references to hell in modern Bibles were not supposed to refer to what we now think of as hell (including essentially every reference in the Old Testament; some translations accurately call sheol “the grave” or “the pit”).

I admire a man who puts his reputation on the line to save lives. Even if it saves one life, it is worth it.

They will hold him up as a shining example of denying the sin. They will parade him around as what gays should be living like.

Even if this were to happen, it would still be an improvement over the Ted Haggard type of outing. As horrible as it is to say that gay people should be with no one or enter into a heterosexual marriage (at least this pastor did it honestly, the damage done to the wife who was lied to is often overlooked) it inadvertantly recognizes that being gay is not a choice. This scenario implicitly accepts that you are either gay or you’re not and you aren’t going to change that, but that you should refrain from living in accordance with that nature. It’s bad, yes, but once you’ve accepted that being gay is not a choice, you’re on the first step to acceptance. It’s no surprise that fundies insist that it is a choice; people of good will, once they accept that being gay is not something you choose, will become more skeptical of the idea that God would create people whose fundamental nature he disapproved of.

It’s still early in the game to call this guy a hero, but what he did was very brave, if that makes any sense. It’s not anyone who could put their entire life on the line for principle. The way he’s come out; as gay, not as “a sinner”, suggests that he’s not planning on becoming a Haggard. He’s probably already made the people of his church question their previously held views on homosexuality and he may have already saved the life of some gay youngster in his church. For that alone, he deserves thanks.

Wow. That’s bravery, there. I applaud Pastor Swilley, and I don’t agree with the posters who think this will have no effect. Earlier this year Christian musician Jennifer Knapp came out unapologetically as gay. I think, as more and more big names in the evangelical movement come out unapologetically, they might soon reach a tipping point. The more gays and lesbians Evangelicals know on a personal basis, or that they respect and look up to, the harder it’s going to be for them to maintain their hatred and bigotry.

I’m glad this guy came out too. It’s a shame when people feel they have to live a lie in order to “make it” according to the views of a larger group. It’s especially good to know he’s willing to put his success and reputation on the line for what is right.

For the record, I am a devout Christian, and for the record, we don’t all think that gay people are sinful or that queer identities or orientations are evil or bad. A lot of Christians do preach that the queer community should be condemned, but I stand firm in belief that Jesus died for EVERYONE and that ALL PEOPLE are children of God, blessed and beloved by their Creator AS THEY HAVE BEEN CREATED, whether that is straight, gay, cis-sexual, trans-sexual, black, white, yellow, red, or purple.

Hemant, you said that “there’s one big reason to leave Christianity: What the faith preaches is true is often not true at all.” I just want to make it clear that if the “what” you are talking about is what Christianity preaches about homosexuality, then there is absolutely no way to classify that “what” as a monolithic doctrine. This is because within the christian community, there are so many different views about what the bible ultimately says on how to treat our queer neighbors. From my perspective, the ultimate answer is “Love thy neighbor as thy self,” but sadly, there are many christians who have been taught that this is some special case where different rules apply. I believe this is due to some fear of the “other” that many people have, and this is by no means a trait exclusive to christian persons.

That is to say, that way of thinking is not what christianity is actually about, and that would be an example of PEOPLE using a faith to propagate their own agenda. We’ve all seen this before, yes? It may ruin public perception of a faith like christianity, but that doesn’t mean it reflects true christian values, even if people base that misconception on a handful of scriptural verses.

So, IF that is the big “what” in your concluding statement, I would ask you to take another look at the christian community before you assume we are all the same, and reconsider your statement that people should abandon their faith because of what some may misguidedly say is true. I assume that your perfect world might not have any religious people in it, but then the world wouldn’t be nearly as diverse as it is, would it?

God bless you 🙂

No one forced this man to ‘live a lie’. It was a choice he made. He lied to himself, to his children and to his congregation. But for what purpose? Why did he choose to live a lie? Was it because he didn’t want to lose his church and his position? That seems hypocritical to me. Much like a vegetarian working at McDonald’s.

Will this man be shunned by the church? Probably. Will they attack his sin of homosexuality? Unfortunately, more than likely they will. But I for one have a bigger issue with lie he has been living for over 25 years. To me that is more telling of his heart than anything else.

Jason

@The Godless Monster, you’re dividing the world into two warring camps of the good guys and “The Enemy”. This pastor isn’t worthy of your respect because he still is not totally in line with you. In this world view, there is no difference between a liberal and a conservative Christian. This is akin to saying that a secular Muslim in Turkey is basically the same to the Taliban. There are shades of gray in the world, and just because the man hasn’t gone all the way down the road it doesn’t make his steps insignificant.

There is a 1+ hour video where he and his ex-wife talk to the congregation and explain it in more detail:
http://www.livestream.com/bishopjimswilley/video?clipId=flv_c06fb65a-d284-4545-8237-775df11a2819

Unfortunately he talks some BS about god speaking to him, but aside from the religious stuff it’s very interesting.

@Gabriel
It’s YouTube. The cesspool of the internet. Doesn’t matter what the topic is. 95% of the comments are pure stupidity.

Wow, one thing I will say loud and clear:

THIS MAN IS NO HERO!!!

Wow, how can anyone call him that? For 25 years, he ignored what Christianity stood for in this arena, he fooled his own children and his followers, he helped and still helps promote something that is very hateful to gays. Hero? No. Coward who finally found some damned backbone? Yes.

To all who responded to my comment:
As a kid I was beaten severely by a group of 6 young boys while defending another boy they were attacking for being a “faggot” and a “sissy”. I suffered facial and head wounds, a fracture to one hand and a deep wound to a knee that became infected and caused me to limp for months afterward. I would do it again, given the opportunity. No, I couldn’t keep my mouth shut back then, either. I don’t have a problem with defending others, let’s just keep things in perspective.
Yes, I do approach this from a “black and white”, “warring camps” perspective. I have good company in this approach (Hitchens), though admittedly this does nothing to bolster my argument from a logical standpoint. I have been Muslim, Catholic, Churches of Christ and last but not least…Universalist Unitarian. I rejected them all and see them all equally repugnant in that they ask participants to surrender their minds and abandon critical thought. This requirement in and of itself is evil and goes against every fiber of my being. As far as the good intentions of the UU bunch, I have no doubt of this, but that fact does not make them my friends from an ideological standpoint. I can be friends with individuals, but that in no way diminishes my desire to see their religion go the way of the belief systems of the past. In the broader sense they are my enemy.
Also, I detect a degree of smug arrogance here and there in regards to a general, -dare I say it- stereotypical protective attitude towards gays, as if somehow they are a group that is more despised than atheists and in need of greater protections and awareness. Polls indicate that a homosexual stands a (slightly)better chance of being elected President of the United States than an atheist.
Chew on that for awhile…
P.S. @ Silent Service 🙂 heh, heh, heh…good one.

Love thy neighbor as thy self

seems PRO-gay, actually 🙂
Since people are the same sex as themselves.

So Godless Monster, is it safe to say that you are not on board with the strategy adopted by many here that an effective way to “fight religion” is through atheists joining forces with the gay community?

I’ve wondered what would happen if some evidence showed up that Jesus himself was a practicing homosexual and that the anti-gay passages in the bible were simply placed there by some homophobic scribes. Then if all the Christian churches opened their doors to gays, would we still see so many gay atheists? Its only an academic question. It can’t really be tested. I feel, though, that the gay commenters here are atheists mainly for theological reasons and not simply because the churches kicked them out as not being welcome.

Oh, please, Anna. He lied to his congregation and — far more unforgiveable in my book — his children. And as for when he came of age, he’s my age. I’ve known out gays all my adult life. Before that I was sequestered away from them in a fundy church. He’s a fucking coward and scam artist.

Can someone please find a stat on the percentage of Mega Church pastors who enjoy sneaking peaks behind Jesus’ toga more than down Mary’s togs?
I’m beginning to see a pattern…..

@ Jeff P,

“So Godless Monster, is it safe to say that you are not on board with the strategy adopted by many here that an effective way to “fight religion” is through atheists joining forces with the gay community? “

No, not really. I would say that a bit less silliness and condescension on the part of straight atheists would be nice. We need them (“gays”) more than they need us. Also, there are many in the gay community that are theists. I consider them to be just as much in the enemy camp as straight theists. It’s tiresome to constantly be exposed to the idiocy that conflates sexual orientation with intelligence, reasoning or morality. The assumption is made that if one is gay, they must be somehow, “alright”. It’s bullshit. I’ve had gay friends that couldn’t have a well reasoned thought if their lives depended on it. Some people know how to think, others do not. Some people are smart, some are dumb and the rest of us are somewhere in the middle.
Enjoying gay sex and declaring it to the world in no way raises ones IQ, imbues them with special powers of reasoning or makes them the moral equivalent of Gandhi, yet to read many of the comments posted on this and other blogs, you’d think this was the case.

Godless Monstar says:

At the time, I was a theist and the internet wasn’t around.
Regardless, the place I attended was a silly House of Woo and encouraged the dismissal of critical thought, regardless of any claims to the contrary.

I’ve never been to a UU group. But it makes sense that a culture of keeping one’s critical thoughts hidden would develop, so that a lot of people of different beliefs can mix together without painful conflict.
That’s how they represent themselves: all sorts of different beliefs or paths are OK.

Anna wrote:

And to all the people who decry him for getting married and having children, he told his wife before they were married that he was gay. I don’t condone deception, but he didn’t lie to her. She married him knowing about his sexuality. What more could you expect him to do? Most gay pastors who have come out of the closet have been married at one point, Gene Robinson and Mel White, for example. These men came of age in a different era and in an environment that was hostile to homosexuality. I have empathy for them because they were victims of their own belief system. That doesn’t excuse infidelity and hypocrisy (if applicable), but I don’t blame them for taking a long time to break free of that poisonous indoctrination.

GREAT post Anna 🙂 (all of your posts in this thread, not just the above)

Your response/thoughts are precisely what I would have said if I’d gotten to this thread earlier 🙂

Kudos.

or crying out loud…let’s stop conflating “gay” with “rational”.

Uhh, what? I actually went back to my comment to see if I had written “gay” instead of “gray”. I didn’t. I’m afraid I have absolutely no clue what you are talking about.

My central point is that there are real, empirical differences between different types of religious schools of thought. This is simply beyond dispute. A society dominated by UU Christians will be a very different society from one dominated by the Taliban. I agree that faith is a problem that even the UU Christians have, but you simply cannot pretend like this similarity makes all their differences insignificant.

@Godless Monstr

they are both points on a single continuum of Woo.

Is all “woo” bad? That would seem to be a pre-supposed conclusion, by giving it a negative name.
Where on the spectrum from acting, imagination, fantasy, art – towards delusion, does it turn bad?
When people go to the Renaissance faire and fantasize for a day that they’re in the middle ages and (perhaps) that magic is real – and debunking would not be welcome – is that so different from a very liberal church like UU? Isn’t the Renaissance Faire like a mini-religion?
Doesn’t one have to judge these things by their effects on society as a whole, rather than how it feels to be inside them?

Muggle, I suggest you watch the podcast that Mara linked to above.

In it, he relates that he was raised in an extremely religious home, so he was indoctrinated from an early age. He mentions he began preaching when he was in diapers. I can’t even imagine the intense indoctrination that must be required to get a toddler to think he’s getting messages from a god. He has been in an extremely homophobic environment his entire life, and yes, he was in denial about it and tried to change himself and become straight. He also mentions that his marriage was not a sham, that he deeply loved (and still loves) his wife, and that he doesn’t regret his marriage or having his children.

As for his children, would it have been better for them not to have been born? That seems like what you’re saying. What is wrong with them making their kids “while knowing that he’s gay?” At what point was he required to tell them? Since when are children entitled to know every detail of their parents’ sexuality? As a daughter of two moms, that puzzles me. I know that my parents are gay because they’ve been out of the closet my entire life, but if they had come out later, so what? I know plenty of people who had a parent come out when they were older, and it was not because the parents were intent on lies and deception, but because they were deathly afraid of their own sexuality and struggling to overcome religious indoctrination and/or social opprobrium.

I simply cannot blame Swilley for taking a long time to accept his true nature. I know you and he are the same age, but he has been enveloped in this kind of hostile religious environment his whole life, while you left when you were young. He didn’t have those same experiences that you did. This life is all he has known, and he has been struggling to fit into it while having been taught (and still believing) that his orientation was wrong. As a lifelong atheist, it’s an environment that I cannot even begin to imagine. The belief in sin and hell must really do a number on people psychologically. Coming out of that situation yourself, you know better than I do how that kind of indoctrination affects how people feel about themselves.

Honestly, watching the podcast, I gained a new level of empathy for the man. He’s not caught in the midst of some scandal, so his coming out is not marred by accusations of infidelity or sexual misconduct. Indeed, if what he says is true, it sounds like he’s never even slept with another man, that he’s spent most of his adult life celibate. He and his former wife are still best friends, which is certainly a nice thing for their children and grandchildren, and they continue to work together. He seems like a decent guy.

I’m just not seeing any basis for calling him a “jerk.” What has he done wrong, aside from having certain religious beliefs? He’s a Christian, but he hasn’t preached hatred against gays or bashed them from the pulpit, so you can’t accuse him of hypocrisy on that score. His only “crime” is being gay and not having had the courage to come out sooner. Looking at his life experiences, I can’t blame him for that.

Groan, Anna, gays can make babies all they want. I think many are excellent parents. I just don’t think it was right not to raise them honestly with what he was. I also don’t think it’s right to promote the Christian religion which promotes gay bigotry even if his touchy-feely church doesn’t.

Cry me a river about being indoctrinated as a child. (He also admits knowing he was gay as a child so don’t give me that bullshit about not accepting who he was; he told his wife he was gay before she married him.)

Him, me and millions of others. I was taught gays were pretty much the spawn of Satan. This fear evaporated the moment I met and conversed with one. One half of a couple that cohabitated for 12 years, much longer than my hetero marraige.

Frankly, I have a stinking suspicion that he’s capitalizing on this opportunity to gain publicity for his church while coming out. How many donations has this stunning revelation netted him? How many new tithers?

Okay, Muggle, I can’t change your mind.

I just find it odd that with your background you can’t appreciate the depth of his fear and indoctrination. Indoctrination is too nice of a word for what happened to him. It’s really brainwashing. Just because he recognized that he had same-sex attractions at an early age does not mean he accepted that about himself. Indeed, if you watch the podcast, he did not accept it. He struggled against it for many years. He even mentions undergoing an exorcism and having “demons” cast out. It’s one thing to be heterosexual and meet a gay person and realize that they’re not the “spawn of Satan.” It’s quite another to be gay having been brainwashed to believe that your sexual orientation makes you sinful, evil, and depraved. Your response to that kind of brainwashing is “cry me a river?” Just because you found it easy to break out doesn’t mean everyone else does.

I say kudos to Swilley for realizing that all the terrible things he was taught about himself were not true. As I said before, I don’t like or agree with the man’s religion, but I think he has conducted himself honorably throughout this whole situation. He was honest with his wife from the beginning, and she’s the only person to whom he owed the details of his sexual life. Not his congregation, not his children. He wasn’t living on “the down low.” He didn’t get caught snorting meth with a male escort. Compare him to a pitiful case like Ted Haggard, who still has not managed to break free of that brainwashing and in the process of his self-denial has managed to hurt his family and many other people along the way.

Watching the podcast, I don’t think it is likely that Swilley will ever abandon his religion, so I don’t expect that from him. Morally speaking, I think it is enough that he is not promoting a harmful form of Christianity. His universalism is still infused with woo, but it’s not as bad as the exclusivity of most evangelical churches. I disagree with faith in general, but there are forms of it that are mostly benign. With that in mind, I think it’s good that he has come out of the closet, and his actions will certainly help other people who are caught in unaccepting, homophobic religious communities. I don’t question his sincerity. Really, I wish nothing but the best for him and his family.

@Phileotruth:

Do you keep the 7th day Sabbath? Do you eat pork or shellfish? Do you agree with stoning children for being disrespectful to their parents? Are women allowed to speak in your church?

There are tons of things that are attributed to God/the Bible that the vast majority of Christians now ignore.

Why is homosexuality so different?

Part of me wants to agree with Muggle 100%. I knew this guy 30 years ago before he was even married, before the megachurch.

But then I have another somewhat softer side of looking at it. To me he always radiated honesty to a fault. So yes, I was shocked to learn about his recent coming out. And this sense of honesty he has about him is what makes him interesting when you consider that he hid this side of himself from his congregation for 25 years. How did he pull that off? I’m thinking it was only through some deep psychological smoke and mirrors.

Back when I knew him (I was not a friend – I was an acquaintance), he annoyed me with his teachings of believers being able to receive rewards of prosperity and health due to a type of positive Biblical thinking.

I could never understand how he could not see the obvious contradictions all over the world to this type of teaching. I could understand how people not as intelligent could not see them, but he was sharp.

I’m speculating but I’m thinking he is a victim of indoctrination since his birth and on some level be it subconscious or whatever, he believes he would not be able to cope in a world without his faith. And it is this fear that keeps him in check and it seems to me this “coming out” is the beginning of an unraveling for him.

Interesting to follow. Maybe I am just talking out of my (you know) but it’s what I am thiking.