Jerks for Jesus October 17, 2010

Jerks for Jesus

If I told you a church was getting attention for their new billboard, you might brace for the worst. But here’s an interesting approach. Christ Covenant Church put this $1600 billboard up in Beaumont, Texas:

Our failure has left a bad taste in people’s mouths. Our mistakes have led to a lack of credibility. Our messes have caused people to seek answers for this life elsewhere. And really, who could blame people for giving up on the church? Ghandi had a very good point when he said “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”

What a bunch of jerks. Prideful, hypocritical, selfish, judgmental jerks.

At Christ Covenant Church, do you know what our response is? Guilty as charged. We are fed up with it just as much as you are. We’ve failed. We’ve failed you, we’ve failed each other, and the worst part is that we’ve failed to act like Jesus. And it’s time to own up to our failure because only then can we turn it around. So no more sugar coating it, no more pretending.

Oy… I rolled my eyes when I read that.

Christianity has a well-deserved image problem.

But we disagree about what makes Christians “jerks.”

They seem to think it’s only about the actions. Well, if a pastor rails against homosexuality and gets caught with a male hooker, yes, that’s hypocritical and he deserves to be exposed and called out on it. If Christians say they live to help others and then spend millions of dollars on a lavish church building, eyebrows will raise. But hypocrisy like that happens whether you’re Christian or not.

The problem is that many churches act “humble” by saying that Christians are guilty of not being “Christ-like,” but then keep doing the things that make other people dislike them — they just do it with a smile on their face.

That doesn’t make anything better.

I wanted to know what the non-jerky Christians at this church believe. So I wrote to the pastor, Chris Beard.

To his credit, he sent me a long, courteous email explaining (with a lot of detail) what his church believes and what they’re trying to do with the billboard.

He told me he had never picketed a gay club or raged against gay marriage, though he had been guilty of occasionally making gay jokes or laughing at them. He apologized for that.

Fair enough.

But what happens when gay marriage is on a ballot? Which way do the people of his church vote? I want to know. Does anyone honestly think they’d support marriage equality? I don’t.

A lot of Christians would never physically/verbally beat up gay people and would admit that the church has treated gay people poorly. Those same people often think homosexuality is still a sin. They wouldn’t vote for gay marriage if it were on a ballot and their church wouldn’t marry gay people if it became legal.

Those people are still jerks.

It’s possible that this particular church rarely brings up the topic of homosexuality… but that’s also a problem. We need churches willing to confront the “jerks” in their faith. On this issue, the sin of omission doesn’t endear me to his church.

It’s not just homosexuality that’s a problem.

This is a church that espouses Creationism. The pastor mentioned some of the typical, repeatedly-debunked arguments you hear from Christians (“there’s evidence of microevolution but no evidence of macroevolution”)… but said he wouldn’t picket a school board about teaching Creationism in the schools.

Well, that’s nice. He limits the delusion to the people he knows. At least that’s a response I can live with — if they want to spread misinformation, at least they keep it to themselves.

The pastor did mention that they do a lot of service work, which I find commendable:

In the Beaumont Independent School District, over 80% of the students are considered “at risk” due to a variety of reasons. So we wanted to know what we could do to help. We contacted the school district and met with the administration of the elementary school closest to our church facility. We have made a commitment to “adopt” that school by providing tutors for children on a weekly basis, encouraging teachers, and providing help in a variety of other ways. For this project we will not be using our church name, or sharing Jesus with students, we will simply be trying to make a difference in that school and in those student’s lives.

That’s awesome. More of that kind of outreach, please.

No doubt there are churches full of hypocritical, selfish, judgmental people. The main problem isn’t the people, though. It’s the messages they continue to spread.

Most Christians I know are not jerks. They’re nice, friendly, decent, hard-working people.

They’re just wrong about many of their beliefs. Many of those beliefs have disastrous consequences for people who mean a lot to me.

You can apologize all you want. You can call yourself “humble,” and rent a billboard, and tell everyone that you’re going to be more like Jesus.

But you’re still indirectly perpetuating lies about gay people, about science, and a whole slew of other things.

(via Believe It or Not)

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What Are Your Thoughts?leave a comment
  • Richard Wade

    So, instead of leaving off being jerks, they’re just jerking off.

  • Danny Wuvs Kittens

    I don’t really care if they think homosexuality is a sin. Well, I do, but its not a priority right now. What makes me mad is the people who want theocracy.

    If you believe gay marriage is wrong, then don’t marry someone who has the same genitals as you.

    It makes me incredibly angry that an incredible amount of Christians, fundamentalist and moderate, and even some liberal, are rabidly opposing equal rights for gays.

    When DADT was getting fought, I thought to myself “good, they’re fighting it, this should be no problem, what kind of bastard would have a problem with this in 2010”. Apparently, a fucking lot of them. Goddamn America, who have you elected? I’ve got a feeling Rosetta Stone is going to get a lot more orders. I fucking want to move, and if this shit keeps getting worse, goddamnit, I will.

  • Todd

    And why, oh why, is it so hard for anyone to spell Gandhi correctly? Or am I just being a jerk?

  • Steve

    They don’t try to actively hurt people or hinder the education of children. That’s great, I guess, when you compare them to fundamentalists. But just sitting by while others with similar beliefs do, doesn’t make them really good people either.

    And I wouldn’t call the stuff you list there “beliefs”. That’s more about what they do with their beliefs.

  • Epicskeptic

    Hey now, I’m from Beaumont Texas. I live in Seattle now and have called it home for ten years. When I went home to visit my mom after ten years I did notice there were a lot of huge churches everywhere. The town stayed the same but the churches grew everywhere. Also for comic relief I listened to the xian radio stations while there and noticed that the xian culture is changing around the south toward inward inflection like the billboard. But yea, they’re still the same.

  • @Todd I really hate that. It’s not that hard to google if you’re just not sure where the “h” goes.

    As for the Christian constant claims of humility and humbleness, how can they go around arrogantly claiming to know what’s best for everyone and condemning people to hell, and still claim that? What goes on in their heads that makes that possible?

  • The Vicar

    Hey, it could be an improvement. Imagine: they would have to take no stand at all on abortion, insist that the religious pay tax to secular authority, and insist on not hoarding wealth, all three of which would be good things. Of course, that’s almost certainly not what they mean, but it would be nice.

  • i disagree with Hemant on this one. in several ways.

    first off: i don’t want them tutoring! good FSM no, i don’t! um, tutoring on subjects like math and science? “don’t worry about this DNA and evolution stuff, little Jonny. it’s not real, and you won’t need to learn it to get a job.” or do you think these folks have a good science education enough that they can tutor students? eek!

    that said, i like this billboard. it’s great marketing! all the points you made may be true about the hypocrisy of “i’m not perfect, but i still support bigotry.” still. it’s a step in the right direction, for believers. imho, this is *exactly* what we should encourage among Christians. “are you a jerk? jesus doesn’t want you to be one, and we think you should know that” is precisely the message i’d like Christians to tell other Christians. we’ll never be completely free of religion until we can free the human race from the fear of death. so until that time? i like C on C critique. you just know this is going to piss off the less liberal megachurch communities. and that’s good!

    is this pastor an atheist? of course not; it’s silly to expect him to ever be one, just as it’s silly to critique him with pure atheism/reason-based arguments. he makes a living being a “model of faith.” so rather than tell him “you’re wrong because you’re a creationist” (and if he is, of course he’s wrong) we atheists should be encouraging him to speak less with Hemant (although that’s great and should continue) and doing more billboards like this. i know a lot of Christian fundie women, in particular, who are embarrassed by how “jerk-like” their fundie husbands can be. shaming them for improper social behavior is more effective than trying to convince them that their core beliefs should be abandoned.

  • Neon Genesis

    I don’t see what the big deal is about this church. They’re not forcing their beliefs on others or trying to mix religion with politics. Isn’t this what we want Christians to do?

  • Samiimas

    I don’t see what the big deal is about this church. They’re not forcing their beliefs on others or trying to mix religion with politics. Isn’t this what we want Christians to do?

    So if a group of atheists thought gay people were inferior you’d have absolutely no problem with them as long as they never actually voted to take away someone’s rights?

  • Neon Genesis

    Speaking as a gay man myself, I’d think they were silly and I wouldn’t mind debating it with them, but as long as they’re not trying to force their views on others through politics, it’s not that big of a deal to me. Does anyone seriously think they can rid the world entirely of ignorance?

  • Samiimas

    Does anyone seriously think they can rid the world entirely of ignorance?

    We’ll never rid the world of starvation and war either but it’s still worth trying.

  • Neon Genesis

    So would you get into a debate about homosexuality with every Christian who doesn’t believe in it you meet on the Internet?

  • Samiimas

    Yes, if someone says they think being gay is a sin I’ll point out that they’re a bigot no different from someone who thinks racemixing is a sin.

  • Our failure has left a bad taste in people’s mouths. Our mistakes have led to a lack of credibility. Our messes have caused people to seek answers for this life elsewhere. And really, who could blame people for giving up on the church? Ghandi had a very good point when he said “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”

    Sigh. I find this kind of thing so frustrating. Do these people really not get it? I don’t care about their image problem. Yes, they have one, but it has absolutely nothing to do with why I don’t consider Christianity valid. They could be the most tolerant, progressive, accepting church on the face of the earth, and it still wouldn’t make me believe in their god. When churches put up billboards like this, it seems to indicate that they simply can’t conceive of people who reject their religion for logical reasons instead of emotional ones.

    I feel like we need a new billboard campaign to address this issue. So many theists seem positive that if they just fix what’s “wrong” with their religion, then atheists will be only too eager to join them. They don’t understand what’s wrong. It’s not their image. It’s not their clergy. It’s not their services. It’s not their actions. It’s their theology. Unless they’re changing their theology to get rid of the supernatural, they’ll never attract atheists.

    Why can’t they understand that? I don’t believe in gods because I have never seen a shred of evidence for the supernatural, and nothing their religion can do will change that. Unless they’re suddenly going to provide solid, verifiable evidence of the supernatural, we’re at an impasse. It doesn’t matter how vibrant, attractive, engaging, hip, progressive, and/or relevant their religious groups are. If they’re not based in reality, that’s a dealbreaker.

  • anonymous

    If we (the atheists) pick a battle with everyone who disagrees with us, we’re not going to make any progress. But if we can stop fundamentalist Christians from pushing their beliefs into politics, we’ll make the world a better place.

  • Neon Genesis

    “Yes, if someone says they think being gay is a sin I’ll point out that they’re a bigot no different from someone who thinks racemixing is a sin.” I used to argue with every Christian I met on the Internet too but then I found out it was like trying to count every grain of sand on the beach.

  • Rieux

    Nonny:

    If we (the atheists) pick a battle with everyone who disagrees with us, we’re not going to make any progress.

    Evidence?

    In the actual political world, “battle” (by which you apparently mean open disagreement and argument) frequently results in significant progress. Just ask the Religious Right.

  • Neon Genesis

    “In the actual political world, “battle” (by which you apparently mean open disagreement and argument) frequently results in significant progress. Just ask the Religious Right.”

    Yeah, by lying, smear tactics, fear mongering, and distorting facts. That’s a real example of open argument right there.

  • Karen

    Most Christians I know are not jerks. They’re nice, friendly, decent, hard-working people.

    Very true.

    But what they hear at church all the time is this kind of bullshit: You’re jerks. You’re filthy rags. You’ve fallen short. You’re guilty.

    It’s SO demoralizing and exhausting to constantly be told that you’re worthless. When in reality, you’re doing your best to live up to the teachings of the church and tithe and volunteer and evangelize and so on and on.

    I guess I have a different take on this, based on my background in fundyism. For these people and this pastor to conceive of their theology being wrong would take a monumental paradigm shift. It isn’t going to happen soon.

    I do think, with all the focus on the tragedies of recent gay kids’ suicides, that some fundy churches may be shamed into at least toning down their anti-gay rhetoric.

    Maybe not many, but as it becomes less and less acceptable to gay-bash, more will start shutting up about it. Much the same as the churches that opposed racial-mixing were shamed into shutting up over many years’ time.

    I hope we are finally reaching that threshold.

  • Fundie Troll

    Most Christians I know are not jerks. They’re nice, friendly, decent, hard-working people.

    Really? Then why are you constantly persecuting Christians?

  • @ Karen,

    I was actually thinking about the very same thing. At the very core of Religiosity is this seemingly intractable belief that we are fallen, despicable, worthless trash – that we are unworthy of love or mercy and that we require some manner of external redemption to make our lives worthwhile. The psychological and behavioral implications of this belief structure are incredibly demoralizing and paralyzing.

    The utility of this belief system is obvious since they are peddling the ‘solution’ to this problem, but this belief in the inherent sinfulness and awfulness of humanity is just pernicious. The idea that even if we lived perfect lives, our imperfect THOUGHTS would be sufficient to condemn us is simply insane. I have been having some success of late in arguing that we actually have an inherent tendency to towards good. The fact that we have a global civilization of billions of people who largely live free of violence seems to be prima facie evidence that we are at least doing SOMETHING right. At any rate it is nice when they will at least agree that yes, our world is in fact better than the nightmarish hellhole of the ancient world, even if they improperly attribute the cause.

  • Flail

    “Now, we must all fear evil men. But there is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men.”

  • ThilinaB

    So if a group of atheists thought gay people were inferior you’d have absolutely no problem with them as long as they never actually voted to take away someone’s rights?

    What one group thinks of another shouldn’t matter if they’re action aren’t doing anything to hurt the others. Like it or not everyone everywhere will never see eye to eye.

    In the situation you stated (it does exist), I may not like it but i don’t have the right force them to see things as i do (just i wouldn’t want them forcing others to their point of view). Indifference to your cause is not the same as opposing your cause.

  • Ryan

    @Samiimas

    I think it’s a fair question of what the best way for people to organize is. Lets say, for the sake of argument, that people didn’t actually have sex drives. If this were true, what behaviors would be logical and rational and which ones hurt people, spread disease and lead people to create kids that they can’t take care of?

    Viewed in this light, homosexual behavior in our modern society, including cottaging, would be irrational. It is only the introduction of desire which people claim changes the equation. I’m not saying this to support the torment of any individual. But the most common argument is, effectively summarized as; opposing any kind of human action that people desire to do should be labeled as bigoted, hateful or otherwise intellectually off limits. That’s a bad counterargument.

    Homosexuality may have served a rational function in tribes to bind people together, similar to bonobos, but unprotected sex regardless of gender leads to the spread of disease. That’s scientific fact. If you call people who assert that promiscuity spreads disease ‘irrational’ or ‘bigots’ it’s still scientific fact. It’s worth noting that even anti-theistic (and fairly anti-scientific) governments like like the USSR and China were anti-gay despite being non-influenced by religion.

    To be clear, I don’t want the law to punish people’s private sexual behaviors as those fascist nations did (and as some religious nations have done.) I don’t think many people in America above the High School level do. On the other hand, Canada has made religious opposition to homosexual behavior illegal. Which is also a frightening development. The trial of eHarmony strongly suggests that legalization of SSM will result in companies being sued until they adopt the appropriate progressive policies. This doesn’t seem much better to me than any other violation of people’s freedom of association.

    I’m not opposed to same sex marriage, though a lot of the pro-SSM marriage arguments seem deeply irrational, which gives me some pause. I’d think a valid idea would be better defended.

    The situation in America is a long way from Loving v. Virginia. It’s harder for gay couples to file taxes as a couple, true, even in states which recognize civic unions. Gay couples can’t visit one another in prison or get benefits from shared insurance if they work for the government. Gays can’t serve in the military if they’re openly gay off-base. (On base, the military is harsh on heterosexual and gay relationships.) Private companies can grant such benefits if they like, and if the issue is that we should force private companies to do so even if they don’t want to that’s interfering with their right to free association. I’d like if committed couples were able to visit one another in prison. I’d like it if soldiers off-base relationships were treated the same whether they were gay or straight, whatever that standard was.

    But to assert that marriage is a “right” brings up the question of where ‘rights’ come from and what they are. Traditionally in America, rights have been mostly ‘negative’ limits on government power and sometimes the interference of one’s neighbors (Freedom of speech doesn’t mean someone owes you a soapbox. Freedom of the press doesn’t mean someone owes you a press.) and it’s only recently that rights have become mostly positive demands on other people to provide us with stuff (“a right to education, medical care, school proms, whatever.)

    Currently, the government tries to encourage heterosexual marriage because it’s good for the state. Some of the priveledges related to marriage are incentives to promote the institution.
    It’s better, in most instances, to have married couples taking care of kids. It’s better for society for people to be sexually faithful since there’s less disease. SSM arguments could possibly make the second argument (though eventually we’d need actual evidence. Sometimes policy changes have unexpected effects.) They may have trouble with the first. (Usually it’s asserted that same sex couples are as good at raising kids as heterosexual couples. I find this questionable first because the studies I’ve been shown have been poorly designed and second because I think people raising their own biological kids is helpful in reducing sexual abuse to some extent and SSM is likely to increase the number of people raising their own kids.)

    Believing that certain actions (rightly or wrongly) are harmful is not at all the same as believing that people have fewer rights because of their race. Think of the implications of such a statement; moral systems cannot oppose actions because people are supposedly born desiring to perform them? That seems a very bad standard, and fundamentally different than things like racism or sexism.

    I don’t think that church members have been particularly inconsistent on the matter, if their view (right or wrong) is that all sex should be viewed in terms of the context of having kids.

    Perhaps the same sex marriage movement, which is fairly recent, will reduce the spread of STDs within the population. If so, great. Maybe it will cause the opposite, by encouraging a mode of association (male homosexuality) associated with a greater number of average sexual contacts and significantly shortened lifespan. If so, then it’s harmful. It’s worth recognizing that we don’t know how that question will be answered, yet.

    Anyone wanting to claim the mantle of logic needs to be willing to test the predictive value of their beliefs.

    So far, things like digit ratios, claimed to be indicators of in-utero exposure to sex hormones and thus determining sexual orientation, have turned out to be lousy indicators of sexual orientation. Studies still rely on survey data rather than digit length ratios to determine orientation. In short, the modern ‘progressive’ explanation of sexual orientation is still completely lacking a demonstrable mechanism.

  • Samiimas

    I may not like it but i don’t have the right force them to see things as i do (just i wouldn’t want them forcing others to their point of view).

    Please provide the quote were I said I wanted to force anyone to do anything.

    I’m so sick of this deception. Anytime someone makes the perfectly reasonable suggestion that people who consider gays, jews, blacks, women, etc. to be inferior should be laughed at and called out as the bigoted morons they are someone tries to claim they’re ‘forcing’ them to change their views.

    I’m not ‘forcing’ anyone to do anything, I’m calling them bigots and morons and if they don’t like it they can explain how I’m wrong about them.

  • Miko

    I think you have an unreasonable standard here, Hemant. Plus, you seem to have a moving goalpost. “How dare they try to force their views about gays on society! They aren’t? Well, how dare they have those views in private! They don’t? Well, how dare they not publicly condemn those who do have those views in private? They do? Well, they still believe in God! They’re atheists? Well, they’re too accommodating of religion!”

    @chicago dyke:

    first off: i don’t want them tutoring! good FSM no, i don’t! um, tutoring on subjects like math and science? “don’t worry about this DNA and evolution stuff, little Jonny. it’s not real, and you won’t need to learn it to get a job.” or do you think these folks have a good science education enough that they can tutor students? eek!

    Do you have any evidence to suggest that they’d promote such a view?

    They’re trying to help people in need and they said they’re going to do it “anonymously” (in the sense of not mentioning their church or Jesus). Based on the available data, I say good for them.

  • Well I sure don’t want churches getting involved in public schools. I don’t think that’s “awesome” at all. It’s a ploy.

    With that being said, I think there are a lot of other things that the average church does wrong besides just railing against gays. That’s just one minority group, and there are others that get picked on by Christians and their churches all the time.

    We sure do speak up for the rights of gays, don’t we? A lot! So when is the gay movement going to speak up for our rights?

    I’d like to hear from ex-Christians about what churches are doing wrong. How about ex-Christians who had no choice in the matter? They rarely get mentioned in our movement, but if they were being pushed around for being gay, they’d get up-front attention from us.

    Of course we could also bring up the fact that mythology makes churches a bunch of jerks. When they happily accept and promote the idea that all non-Christians will be punished during the end times, or when they believe and promote the idea that God wants them to avoid modern medicine because of a thin line in a book of myths, they’re jerks.

    A simple billboard hasn’t got the space on it to list out the reasons. It’s crazy for them to get away with thinking that they’ve only done one thing wrong. Or that their continued ploys like this one could ever be an indication that they’re changing for the better. I don’t buy it.

    The only sign a church puts out that I’ll believe reads: “For sale.”

    There are a lot of boarded up, abandoned churches in the USA. Overkill, mismanagement, and a routine disregard for individual civil rights seem to bring an end to lots of churches.

    I hope the cost of that billboard brought them closer to closing up. For the good of humanity.

  • Oddly enough, I might disagree on this one to a point… it just depends on whether these people still consider themselves Evangelical. Evangelicals, by definition, must spread their beliefs and try to convert every lost soul they encounter. I don’t agree with that.

    However, a good friend of mine is Mormon (although a very poor one), and believes that homosexuality is a sin, but would never vote against gay marriage.She has lots of gay friends, even though she privately thinks they’re all going to hell. In her mind, only god should do the judging, not the government.

    So, even though I think she’s deluded and misguided, I very much appreciate that she doesn’t let that influence her vote.

    If THAT’S how this church instructs their people to act, I’m all for it. But just because you don’t go around committing hate crimes doesn’t mean you’re not a jerk. It also doesn’t make them any less wrong and believing in invisible omnipotent beings.

    Wait– do they just follow the philosophy of Jesus? No? Then they’re still full of it.

  • Steven cARR

    ‘What a bunch of jerks. Prideful, hypocritical, selfish, judgmental jerks.’

    Well, anybody can see for themselves the way these people are filled with the Holy Spirit.

    No wonder they regard themselves as jerks.

    Before they were indwelt by the Holy Spirit, they were probably regular guys.

    But now they are selfish jerks.

    It is almost as though there is no Holy Spirit transforming Christians, isn’t it?

  • I agree with what Anna said in her comment. Personally, if Christianity dropped the notions of “fallen”, “saved”, an afterlife, an intervening God, and all supernatural stories, I really wouldn’t mind it at all. But then it wouldn’t be Christianity now would it?

  • Thank you, Chicago Dyke and Joe. I was going to ask if I was the only one creeped out by a church “adopting” (whatever the fuck they mean by that, you know it can’t be good) a public school. They can stay the fuck away from my second grade grandson who has trouble sitting still because he’s hyperactive like his father.

    It took a two-second solution from his grandmother btw to greatly remedy this. Fortunately because he has a decent teacher this year. He has a little stuffed blue jay that I suggested he bring “to help him concentrate” by just giving a little squeeze. Teach had e-mailed mommy, mommy told me, I see him off to the school bus every morning but Wednesday when Mommy’s classes are later and I said why don’t you bring Rocket and just give him a little squeeze instead of jumping up from your seat and rolling around on the floor (yes, he did, yes we are embarrassed, mom and me anyway) and Rocket will help you sit still and pay attention to teacher.

    I didn’t have a chance to run it by teacher but admonished him not to make Rocket fly or walk across his desk just squeeze him to help him remember to sit still and pay attention and if teacher asked, explain to her grammy thought he might help but if she didn’t like it to put the bird back in his back pack. He and his mom like to thumb wrestle so I also said if she doesn’t let you take Rocket out, put your hands under the desk and practice your “thumb wars” moves for a second until you can concentrate. He nodded and got on the bus. Teacher was delighted at the solution and let him have his bird to bring. He did for all of two days. That’s how long it took him to figure out he didn’t need Rocket to sit still and concentrate. Now he’s going to school and proud of himself for sitting still and paying attention.

    But this is what kills me. Why don’t more teachers take the time to e-mail or call the child’s home? Yes, I know there are homes where that is pointless but they never know until they try and sometimes the solution is just that simple. And you never know what family (who, after all, know the child better than teacher) might come up with to help.

    Frankly, I agree with Karen. I’m also not finding this approach new. It’s just another version of people are born sinning scum and only through Christ can they be saved. I’m surprised to see you give it so much praise, Hemant.

    Also, what Anna said. I’m sure we’ll all just jump aboard the Jesus train as long as they spin it the right way.

    Hey, it could be an improvement. Imagine: they would have to take no stand at all on abortion, insist that the religious pay tax to secular authority, and insist on not hoarding wealth

    They’ll also whip people they catch buying and selling on the Sabbath, set family members against one another (yeah, they already do that) and uphold all the Old Testament laws such as stoning adulterers and sassy teens. Oh, yep, it would be such a delightful society if Christians really came to ask what would Jesus do? Not to mention that whole voluntarily (even if it was a bit reluctant at the last moment) sacrificing oneself in a slow, tortuous death for others’ sins thing. Ah, what a model of behavior is this Jesus freak! Not.

    lead people to create kids that they can’t take care of?

    Viewed in this light, homosexual behavior in our modern society, including cottaging, would be irrational.

    So you’re trying to claim that homosexuality leads people to create kids that they can’t take care of? Methinks you need someone to go over the birds and the bees with you again. You’re also assuming all homosexuals practice unsafe sex. WTF? Stereotype much? You sure did in your comment. Somehow I’m not surprised that you also expressed the oft-repeated bigotry that single parents can’t do as good a job as two-parent homes (millions of us already have, thank you very much, it’s not my child you’ll find out there killing and maiming and being a drag on society, my child’s been working her ass off since she was 17) or that marriage is about having kids which means hetereos shouldn’t be allowed to marry then unless they throw away the danged birth control at least until they produce the requisite number of kids to give them the right to dare love each other. What an asinine, bigoted, blow-hard statement! And, frankly, no, it doesn’t matter if homosexuality’s a choice or not. It isn’t but it wouldn’t matter if it were!

  • Oh when will they learn to spell Gandhi correctly? With the G-A-N-D-H-I, not the H following the G. Seems that not only are Christians jerks, they cannot spell either.

  • absent sway

    Thank you, Miko.