Did Religious Groups Do Enough After 9/11 to Heal the Nation?

Can you clarify what women’s rights have to do with 9/11 healing?

I care! I care! I care! *waves*

I think that they are similar to christians in that way—many may be over-sensitive.

And too many won’t understand that criticism often means constructive criticism…it isn’t just to rip it apart and take away the person’s faith. Many religious folks seem not to understand this. Being critiqued could be a form of compliment, if taken in the right context. 🙂

This is a great article!

“That’s my biggest problem with the ‘moderates.’ They’re quick to reject Muslims who are violent, but also quick to condemn anyone who has good reason to criticize Islam itself.”

Exactly. While I often want to be allies with Muslims who are being discriminated against, I get upset when moderates then demand that members of their own religion should be exempt from criticism, even if they do something wrong.

I really like that you are able to combine respecting people’s rights while expressing disagreement with them; it’s something that I think more people should do.

Given all the controversy recently and the many, many articles being written, I felt inspired (and a bit compelled) to write a blog entry about it myself.

@Simon: I can’t speak for Hemant, obviously, but the treatment of women is one of the big problems within Islam. While it may not be directly related to 9/11, it is one of the extreme ideologies that cause lots of harm. Some of the moderates who condemn terrorist attacks such as 9/11 still do other wrong things, such as discriminate against women.

@Andrew: I agree that we should not single out one religion. I don’t think Hemant was doing that, though, since he mentioned other groups in the article as well.

I wish I could agree with you that Atheists haven’t been as bad as other groups with attacking Muslims but geeze, yes, we are. I wish it were just critiquing the religion itself but, no, they’ve been there at the forefront — particularly the most vocal Atheists — screaming against Park 51.

Our saving grace is some of them have. Other vocal Atheists have been at the foreground calling for reason in the Ground Zero Mosque controversary. But it is split. We do not come up squeaky clean and blameless in this one. For every FFRF and Hemant Metha speaking up for reason, there’s a Harris and Condell raging like a Tea Party candidate.

Simon, you kidding me? Plenty. The same thing shooting abortion doctors does frankly. The terroists were religious extremists who want to institute sharia law. Women don’t fare too well under sharia law. And look at the motivation for flying those airplanes into buildings. 72 virgins in heaven. I’d say women’s rights have quite a bit to do with the whole damned thing.

I wish I COULD go there to comment, but I’m finding it impossible to register with the Post.

Alas, just because atheists share the view that there is no god, it doesn’t mean that we share views about how to handle the political aspect. I know a couple of Tea Party atheists, after all.

But I’ve seen more divergence among atheists about this stupid little bookburning than about any other issue. Somebody like Pat Condell is frankly more freaked out because he feels that his country is being overrun by what he regards as a backward religion, so yeah, he’s kind of over the top just now. I just wish the governor of Arizona would watch his videos–and perhaps learn to be grateful that our illegals are Latinos, and being Christian, have at least more commonality with most of our population.

We can ask for religions to make peace and advance healing, but I don’t see any of them in the mood to do anything but cover their own backsides. The Catholics are rallying around a criminal pope. American Protestants are feeling discriminated against because they’re being criticized. Muslims in the US are, understandably, laying low. And one lousy little pipsqueak in Florida with a congregation of a couple of dozen has divided and hamstrung the atheists. Doesn’t say much for us, does it?

I just read that the Quran burning has been cancelled. Maybe everybody can step back and take a deep breath and try to regain our rationality.

I’m an American. Stupid Terry Jones has his right to burn korans, even though he says he won’t do it now, and stupid muslims can build their community center. We can have stupid scientology centers, we can have jerkface JW’s peddle their nonsense, we can have pagans dancing in groves, we can have whatever other stupid shit done in the name of religion, because that’s how America is wired, but I don’t have to smile and nod blindly. That is my freedom as well, to call it like I see it. As long as I do not commit any crimes, as long as I do not break any laws, I can do/say what I want in the religious playground.

I find it all silly and counterproductive to us as a country, and I can express that view. I find sharia law disgusting. I find christian teachings disgusting, and I find jewish, all abramaic laws disgusting, and the woo of the new age and pagans extremely detrimental.

That’s just me. What I love about my country is we are supposed to be able to tolerate (and I don’t mean that in the tough-jaw I-will-put-up-with-this way, but truly tolerate other views.

Have you ever burnt a book? I burned a bible once, and it makes a mess, and is disgusting to smell.

If I could program the perfect life it would be free from nonsense and everyone striving towards better circumstances for themselves, but not everyone wants that. And no one, least of all myself has the answers.

Did they do enough?? Fuck, did they do anything??

I find it disturbing that if anyone does anything the muslim “community” dislikes they turn violent. Protests against those who are against the mosque, against the koran burner, against cartoons, etc, etc, etc. Imam Feisel Abdul Rauf in an interview clearly stated if this mosque debacle isn’t “handled correctly” there will be repurcussions greater than the cartoons. Why are we protecting this? Why are you acting like this is ok? Whats far more telling is when a muslim commits an act of terrorism, for example, the muslim “community” says nothing. You may have a token imam on the podium with other religious leaders, but where is the outrage from the “community”. Someone mentioned “they are fearful of thier imam”, so we give them a pass? Don’t hold them accountable? I am disgusted at the response the koran burner has gotten. Generals, politicians and the damn PRESIDENT condeming the act not for the act itself but out of fear. Fear of the insane violence that will result.

What we’re seeing is history repeating itself. Europe learned the hard way what ignoring the Nazi Party would bring. Now in this climate of “political correctness” and inclusivism we’re setting ourselves up for another tragedy.

What we’re seeing is history repeating itself. Europe learned the hard way what ignoring the Nazi Party would bring. Now in this climate of “political correctness” and inclusivism we’re setting ourselves up for another tragedy.

yes, because all of islam is exactly like the nazi party. So much paranoia and so little facts. But I do agree that history is repeating itself. We are clearly entering a new era of McCarthyism.

And p.s., you missed a bit slick!

O’BRIEN: But the controversy itself–
RAUF: So the Cordoba house —
O’BRIEN: –though, right, isn’t that causing to some degree an instability and a risk, a risk of safety? I mean, there’s an address now that has become the flash point for a lot of anger. Isn’t that a risk to Muslims and Americans?
RAUF: There is a certain anger here, no doubt. But if you don’t do this right, anger will explode in the Muslim world. If this is not handled correctly, this crisis could become much bigger than the Danish cartoon crisis, which resulted in attacks on Danish embassies in various parts of the Muslim world. And we have a much larger footprint in the Muslim world. If we don’t handle this crisis correctly, it could become something which could really become very, very, very dangerous indeed.

Now did I SAY he he loved the radicals? No I said:

Imam Feisel Abdul Rauf in an interview clearly stated if this mosque debacle isn’t “handled correctly” there will be repurcussions greater than the cartoons.

Your attitude is part of the problem. Take off the PC blinders.

…and here is the rest of the interview, right after the bit you think I ‘missed’:

O’BRIEN: Do you ask yourself how did you miss that? I mean, it’s been your life’s mission, and you and I have spoken in the past years, to build bridges and reach out. And yet, given what you know now, would you have built?

RAUF: As I mentioned it, this story is not new. People knew about it.

O’BRIEN: Right, but given what you know now, would you have said, listen, let’s not do it there? Because it sounds like you’re saying in retrospect wouldn’t have done it.

RAUF: Well, yes.

O’BRIEN: You would not have done it?

RAUF: If I knew this would happen, this would cause this kind of pain, I wouldn’t have done it. My life has been devoted to peacemaking.

O’BRIEN: There are so many people who say, so if you’re saying it was a mistake, then why can’t you get out of it and not do it?

RAUF: Because we have to now make sure that whatever we do actually results in greater peace, not in greater conflict.

I hate to tell you this, but Imam Rauf is irrelevent. What he thinks or what he says means nothing. Its the “peaceful muslim communities” around the world.

Hmmm. Lets take a step back shall we?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/islam/muhammad_cartoons_timeline.html

“draw muhammad day”?

It was in response to people who threatened violence on people who depicted Muhammad. It was more in response to the whole south park nonsense, but i think it applies to the cartoonist as well.
draw muhammed!

And I thought we were talking about peaceful muslims? Obviously people who think violence is the proper response to a cartoon are not peaceful. So can you just tell me what your point is so I don’t have to keep guessing? And maybe assume that I am reasonably caught up on current events?

here is nice quote from a muslim american regarding the southpark issue (I know it’s not dannish cartoons, but it’s recent and therefore easier to find):

The mainstream American Muslim community, including my own organization, has also strongly repudiated the few members of an extremist fringe group who appeared to threaten the creators of “South Park.” That group, the origins and makeup of which has been questioned by many Muslims, has absolutely no credibility within the American Muslim community.

I love it. Here we go again with the same old, why aren’t the moderate Muslims speaking up but the second they do, the same people faulting them for not doing so are the exact same ones who equate them with the violent terrorists they’re condemning and start protesting them and saying they should be stopped before they institute sharia law (which would take a revolution, btw, since it is not constitutional). Park 51 has shown that. A gesture of peace from Muslims has been roundly rejected by most of non-Islamic America.

p.s. well said. Much more like McCartyism.

I’m still waiting for any of these who think Park 51 should move to answer if Rosa Parks should have given up her seat? After all, it’s the same principal. Moving Park 51 would definitely be the worst move Rauf could make.

1) *sigh*
here, here, here, here, here, and here is a great big list.
Too bad people speaking *against* violence doesn’t attract much media attention. You would probably be a bit more aware of the position of moderate muslims if it did.

2) it is exactly like mccarthyism if you replace communism with islam (did you at least see that connection?). It has been politicized, american muslims are being attacked for the views of muslims in a completely different country, and people who think islam isn’t all bad are labeled as apologetics or worse.

Good work, p.s.!

Randy, just how fucking much do you require? It’s a pity Muslims can’t force the faux newsteams to cover what they say. Then it might penetrate. Exactly how is it their fault that when they do speak out, it just isn’t covered?

Fail? No, only if your mind is made up to be a hatriot no matter what. You asked for links and p.s. gave you plenty. He could bring a hundred more and you’d still sit there and say not enough. It appears that, to you, if one Muslim is guilty, they all are. Epic logic fail.

Does that Atheist shooter at the Discovery Channel mean we should be targeted? Does Stalin? I’m sure there were plenty of other Atheists who killed. I’m too lazy and time is much too precious a commodity to waste searching the internet because your mind is obviously made up.

You want to go after all Muslims because of some extremists. Just curious, you going after Christians and Jews too. Because certainly their holy books are just as vile as the Koran.

randy,

I think it’s ridiculous that making *thousands* webpages dedicated to denouncing islamic extremism isn’t enough. Do you want something more tangible? how about:
-constructing a community center open to people of all faiths to demonstrate the peaceful nature of moderate muslims (I’m sure you know what I’m talking about)
– what about creating an interfaith organization between christians and islams to fight religious bigotry towards non-muslims in the middle east?

And of course you know about the efforts of atheists to improve their image. YOU ARE READING AN ATHEIST BLOG. Try a few of these:

http://www.islamagainstterrorism.com/index_english.htm
http://www.freemuslims.org/
http://theamericanmuslim.net/

We had plenty of reasons to fear communism as well. The cold war was very real, and the soviet union was a viable threat. Holding peaceful american muslims (many who lost loved ones in some of the tragedies you listed) responsible for the violent extremists is not fair.
just out of curiosity, what would be “public” enough?

and just so you know that not all 9/11 victims are against park51

Good to hear!

Randy,

So far, you have claimed that Imam Rauf has failed to be a voice of peace and moderation. When shown to be wrong you claimed that

I hate to tell you this, but Imam Rauf is irrelevent.

Next, you argued that moderate Muslims in the western world do not denounce the radical activities of a fundamental few in the Middle East. When given a list of contradictory evidence you claimed

Thats great, but not enough. They need to show “Joe Public” they are against the violence. The reason they don’t is they fear their own people/religion. You can find far more jihadist/anti-American websites so I’m sorry, fail!

Let’s ignore the fact that ‘not enough’ is a completely subjective measure based on your own opinion, and that jihadist websites are not a product of the moderate Muslims who strive for peace. The real problem with your argument is your last statement:

My simple message is this, make a more concerted, public effort to distance themselves from the radicals. Your excuse of “no media coverage” is weak. Fail.

Why should moderate Muslims in the western world, who hold the same western values that we do, have to actively state their opposition to the activities of radicals across the globe? If “Joe Public” is not aware of these moderate Muslims’ dissent from radicalism, it is because they are unwilling to weigh the evidence for themselves. I would bet that this same ‘Joe Public’ you hold in such high regard is clearly able to make a distinction between pedophile priests and the majority of the Catholic clergy, yet you see very few ‘moderate catholics’ actively denouncing the offending few. Would you, Randy, also agree that all catholics should make a much greater effort to denounce sex abuse perpetrators or else they risk:

acting like this is ok

So far, you have claimed that Imam Rauf has failed to be a voice of peace and moderation. When shown to be wrong you claimed that

Show me where I said that. I only mentioned Rauf and one comment during an interview and p.s. added the rest.

Why should moderate Muslims in the western world, who hold the same western values that we do, have to actively state their opposition to the activities of radicals across the globe?

Wow, are you blind? People claim how all muslims are being unfairly lumped in with the violent fundies and you ask why they need to make a very clear distinction? So complaining and claiming persecution without any effort to sway public opinion looks like they support the fundies. Websites are great for communicating within the muslim community, but as I said a more public display needs to be held. Pedophile priests, while vile, are not on the same level as a suicide bomber, weak.

My comment was censored…didn’t this website participate in Draw Muhammad Day, which was about fighting useless censorship? Hemant Mehta you are a hypocrite.

As I said above, a public effort needs to be made.

What kind of public effort would satisfy you?

Muslims Combating Extremism

This looks like a pretty clear and concerted public effort.

Imam Feisel Abdul Rauf in an interview clearly stated if this mosque debacle isn’t “handled correctly” there will be repurcussions greater the cartoons. Why are we protecting this? Why are you acting like this is ok?

I guess you can imply whatever you believe, but my only reference at ALL to the imam was just the quote, other than that he was irrelevent.

First, you can no longer say “without any effort” as you have been shown a significant amount of effort made via one of the most effective tools of communication in the world (the internet).

And you will see I acknowleded that, but turn on the TV and see how public opinion
has been changed. It hasn’t at all.

As I pointed out,why are athiests using billboards, TV interviews and booths at various events? I mean, shouldn’t the most effective tools for communication be enough? You can ALL say “their doing this”, but I watch the news regularly and there is nothing. As I also said above, if the media can be shown to have a anti-islamic bias (and with as liberal a media we have now, fat chance) Then it should be dealt with. The only publis effort I’ve seen happened here in Nebraska with an islamic org putting informative leaflets in coupon packs. THAT reaches the American people, not islamic websites.

Anna asked what would be enough for me, hate to burst your bubble but I don’t care.I only care about our government showing weakness to islamic thugs. Walking around the capital of a muslim country and seeing a women with a dead baby begging for food or a cop breaking the arm of a small girl also begging really gives me a dim view of thier culture.

As I also said above, if the media can be shown to have a anti-islamic bias (and with as liberal a media we have now, fat chance) Then it should be dealt with.

Yes. By the media. Not the targets of this ridiculous fear mongering.
Not that it really matters, but Fox is the most watched news station in the states. Why do you think the majority of news is liberal?

I only care about our government showing weakness to islamic thugs. Walking around the capital of a muslim country and seeing a women with a dead baby begging for food or a cop breaking the arm of a small girl also begging really gives me a dim view of thier culture.

This argument is an appeal to emotion, and a weak one too. You would find those conditions in any poverty stricken country. And it has absolutely nothing to do with western muslims (the primary topic of this conversation). The way you phrase this makes it seem like you think that all muslims want to live in a place filled with dead babies, starving women, and frequent beatings. I agree that thugs of any religion are a problem and should be dealt with. But the vast majority of western muslims are not thugs, and you shouldn’t lump them together.

and http://www.muslimfamilyday.com/
and http://www.whyislam.org/Subway/tabid/178/Default.aspx
and http://www.whyislam.org/AboutUs/tabid/182/Default.aspx
notice that whyislam, and organization dedicated to improving the image of islam and teaching people about it, put up billboards, booths at malls, radio ads, subway ads, and newspaper ads.