Keith Olbermann’s Take on the (Close To) Ground Zero Mosque

Nobody has said it better.

How many atheists are you encountering who are against this? Maybe it’s just that I have started tuning people out when they make the same old tired arguments, but I was under the impression that the predominant atheist feeling was pro (or at least, not anti).

Matt Yglesias made a particularly insightful point on this here — “people simply don’t actively support the construction of other people’s religious monuments.” you shouldn’t expect anyone except for Muslims to be “in favor” of building a mosque, in the immediate sense. Nobody except Muslims believes that Islam is true. But that isn’t the question on the table. It’s not, “Are you thrilled about the construction of a new Islamic cultural center?” It’s, “Do you recognize the right of people who think differently from you to exercise their first amendment rights?”

I can sort of see the bind many people find themselves in, because the position we are asked to take is so binary “Support the center” or “Oppose the center”. I’m betting there are a fair number of people who are “Support the freedom to build the center, while not thinking it’s a particularly good idea”. People who take this last position are taking a very different position from those who want the center “stopped” (apparently by magic, since reminders of the 1st ammendment just lead to them grumbling “yeah but still…”). To use a very extreme example; you can support the right of the KKK to march in Harlem whie still thinking its a very bad idea and opposing the message of the KKK.

However those who oppose this center either need to make a convincing case as to why this place is destined to be a terrorist condoning wasps nest, or come out and openly say that they consider any Islam to be directly equivalent to Osama bin Laden style terrorist loving nihilist death worship. If an Islamic center is “insensitive” then it must be concluded that Muslims are collectively guilty for actions committed in the name of their religion. This presumably includes the bereaved Muslim families of Muslims killed on 9/11.

If you looked around the US, I wonder how many Catholic Churches you could find close to centers dealing with sexual abuse. The victims of sexual abuse by priests could be quite understandably offended by the idea of a seminary opening up next to their therapy center. To those who say that the center should open somewhere else, would you also object to the seminary? If not, why not?

The man is right… this is just more hate from the alarmists

I agree with Harrison. Beautifully put and well done, Keith.

How far is far enough? By what definition of “close” is Area51[sic] “too” close? Would it be OK if it were built a block further away? Two blocks? Miles? In Salt Lake City?

What about a monument to the Muslims who died that day, right at the site? Are their names to be stricken from the list?

What if the terrorists had been without religion? Would the complainers then be objecting to a non-religious structure? No Macy’s for you, because the terrorists wore Santa Claus suits?

Why can’t the Christians see the mosque as a mark of Muslim sympathy for their loss? As in: We will honor your (and our) dead by building a place of worship nearby.

Cenk has a good rant on this too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lzp5sKG0NX0

(cannot miss to notice frivolous Nazi comparisons, and yes it’s spot on)

The one thing that gets to me is the whole “perceived insult” thing. A few people are paranoid enough to think there’s an intent to insult 9/11 victims, and suddenly that makes it OK to prevent this community center from going up.

If it were a real, actual mosque actually near Ground Zero, I could maybe see their point.

If there were real, provable links to al Qaeda and terrorists, and not just half-baked rumors and lies, then I might be able to see their point.

If we didn’t have a First Amendment that allowed for unconditional freedom of religion, then I could definitely see their point.

I don’t think nearly as many people would be “insulted” if the right wing didn’t politicize this and twist the facts around to fit their perverted agenda.

Sure they have a right to build their place of worship, (yeah I know, community center with the top 2 floors as prayer rooms, not a mosque) just like anyone else. That being said I personally oppose the building of any and all houses of worship for any and all faiths. Unamerican? Not really… I’m not doing anything to try and stop these houses of worship from being built, I recognize their right to do so, I just don’t like them and oppose them philosophically. I’d be happy if there was never another house of worship built in America and happier still if they tore down those now existing. Do I oppose this community center, (Park 51) any more than any other religiously affiliated building in any other spot? No.

You know here in California the Catholics built a string monuments to their atrocities and conquest of the indigenous people, the California Missions. The California school system taught me all about it in the third grade complete with having me build a model of one of them and making field trips to see them first hand, (Facepalm). Everyone seemed to think the Missions were a fine idea, (BTW thanks for the non-native, invasive, mustard you conquering assholes). Hell the community center (park 51) isn’t even anything to do with the Trade Center attack so why the opposition? Can’t say that about the Catholics.

Here’s any idea how about everybody stop building monuments to their own gullability.
V

A building is just a structure. It’s the mindset of the people inside that I may, or may not have a problem with.

I object to the timing (the 10th anniversary of 9/11, FFS!), the deliberately provocative location, and the complete lack of empathy for those who lost loved ones.

The amount of wrong in this statement is just astounding.

There’s nothing indicating ANYWHERE that it’s opening on the anniversary of 9/11 (and even if it WAS, wouldn’t a community center that betters the community be a fitting way to remember the camaraderie we enjoyed as Americans following the attacks?)

How is it provocative to build the Muslim equivalent of a YMCA near Ground Zero when there is an actual mosque another couple of blocks over? Is it that it’s new that’s provocative? Do we not want our Muslim friends to have nice things?

I’m going to guess that in 3000 people, one or two of them were not white Christians. But perhaps we don’t need to show any kind of sympathy for them?

Sorry, but the building is over 2 blocks away from ground zero. Not only do they have the right to build it, but I see no reason to think this is insensitive in any way.

“Olberman picks up the mantle of Murrow. Thank you.”

Ha, you dishonor Murrow.

In order to demonstrate good will and super cozy warm interfaithy feelings they should host an “Everybody Draw Muhammad Day!” event every year.

The problem is the conflict between what the mosque means to America and what it means to Islamic Jihadists.

To America, the mosque is a symbol of our religious freedom. The fact that people who are not of the majority religion can build a house of worship is the most important part of our fundamental freedoms.

But to many Islamic Jihadists–who are not necessarily the people associated with building the mosque–it represents the conquest of America. Islam has a long history of building mosques on the grounds of religious building of other faiths. The original Great Mosque of Cordoba was built on a Christian church after the Muslims took the city of Cordoba, Spain, in 711.

The fact is that Osama bin Laden is not some random weird nutcase using his personal twisted vision of Islam to justify his unrelated hatreds. He is not the Islamic version of Jim Jones. There are Muslims around the world who agree with him that Islam must take down the west and bring the entire world until Muslim rule.

Manfred Murck, the deputy chief of Germany’s domestic security agency describes Muslims who go on tours so that they can pray at the mosques at which great terror attacks were organized:

Devotees of the 9/11 killers have come from all over on a tour of jihadism that starts in Hamburg, then proceeds to Madrid, then to London, where dozens were murdered in the tube in 2005. “Hey, I prayed where Mohamed Atta did . . .”

http://online.wsj.com/article/NA_WSJ_PUB:SB10001424052748704407804575425212127101800.html

I cannot believe that the choice of name, the choice of location, and the timing are without coincidence. It wasn’t a coincidence than when the National Socialist Party sought to stage a march in Skokie, either.

We are going to permit this. We have to permit this. We could try to block it–a very un-American thing–but it would be an expensive legal fight that would ultimately be found in favor of those who wish to build the mosque.

But what I want to know is why all of those people who are calling for the mosque to be built are doing so on legal grounds. Where are the Muslims who will use this? Why aren’t they saying, “Hey, I may be a Muslim, but I’m not a Jihadist. I’m an American and a capitalist, just like you. And I know Muslims who died during 9/11, bankers and traders and office workers, not terrorists, who died just as your friends died, for trying to live the American dream. It’s not just your tragedy. It’s ours, too. This mosque is a celebration of the America that welcomed us, not the foreign terrorists who attacked us all.”

Is there anyone who is going to say that?

Olbermann’s take was pretty goddamned perfect.

In America, you have the right to piss people off and hurt their feelings if you want, so long as you aren’t inciting violence against people or property. It hurts my ‘feelings’ when xtians say I’m an abomination and a sexual deviant because I’m homosexual, but they damn well have the right to do it. It hurts Muslims’ feelings when we draw Muhammed, but we have the right to do it. Stop valuing feelings over freedom.

To “TychaBrahe”:

The racism would not be in the “concern” but what do you plan to do about it.
If you defend racial profiling that’s racism. If you propose other ways to deal with Immigrants that are not discriminatory and fair fine.
My wife teaches in a High School in which several “uneducated, illiterate, and ill-prepared” High School illegal aliens won a robotics competition against a team from MIT (Yes Carl Hayden).
About the Cultural Center. The first amendment is a good enough reason to defend it. And why do they have to be “capitalists” too? I’m a socialist and that does not make me less of an American citizen.

They seriously named it after the capital of the Islamic caliphate in Spain? Haha.

Some muslims take “Freedom of Religion” out of the “freedom to practise” section and place it squarely in the “freedom to shove it up your nose” section.

Does freedom of religion give 5000 muslims the right to block the streets of Paris and Marseilles for 2 hours every friday?
Or does it just give them the right to pray without being set on fire/tortured/murdered (a right they are often unwilling to give others).

Freedom of religion is NOT freedom to do whatever the hell you like, trample on other peoples feelings, mutilate your daughters in the name of chastity, force your wives to wear tents etc. and call it your “religion”.

Freedom of religion means:
THE RIGHT TO PRAY TO ANY GOD(ESS) YOU WANT TO PRAY TO AND NOT TO PRAY TO ANY GOD(ESS) YOU DO NOT WANT TO PRAY TO.

And it also means:
THE RIGHT NOT TO FINANCIALLY SUPPORT ANY RELIGIOUS GROUP YOU DISAGREE WITH.

No more and no less!

My biggest disappointment in atheists who are critical of the proposed building is that many formed their opinions based on media hype – it’s a mosque!! it’s a jihad school!! – rather than doing a little research first. Gees, guys, dial your skepto-meters to the “on” position, and do a little fact checking before you accept the media hysteria at face value!

I’m an atheist who is against this mosque.

It is important that there are facts being discussed. This is not a mosque. It is a community centre. Being specific matters.

Chris, you said,

I’m actually a little surprised to read the thoughts of some of you “so-called” atheists.

Is someone who calls himself an atheist, not really an atheist but just a “so-called” atheist if his social or political views do not agree with yours? If he is more strident than you, or if his vision of the future reminds you of the domineering vision of theists, is he not a true atheist, but some kind of counterfeit?

Suggesting that it is undesirable for atheists to have attitudes that resemble those of theists may be good advice, but first check your own attitude. Plenty of Christians dismiss other Christians as “so-called” Christians because they disagree on social or political issues.

NFQ

Nobody except Muslims believes that Islam is true.

I’ll call you on that. I’m not a Muslim, not even religious, but I am willing to state that the Muslim religion is true, for those who build a successful and respectable life through it. But that is just me, I’m what many people would call a cultural relativist, I’m just unwilling to support the notion that there is a one-size-fits-all tradition or culture for all people, what can essentially be called cultural imperialism.

TychaBrahe

But to many Islamic Jihadists–who are not necessarily the people associated with building the mosque–it represents the conquest of America.

If that really was the case then the United States would be in a no-win position, because preventing the community centre (not mosque) from being built would be vindication of the jihadists’ belief that the United States is the enemy of Islam. On top of that the whole controversy would (has) reveal(ed) that through the 9-11 attacks the jihadist terrorists were successful in striking fear and terror into the American people. This is aside from the fact that allowing the centre to be built would be a confirmation of those values which according to right-wingers are why the extremists hate the United States.

In fact ever since the events of 9-11 the United States has been in a no-win situation. The United States has not been able to do a thing that would not give the jihadist terrorists what they want. By starting a war with them the US is providing the Afghan-Soviet type war that is desired by the militant jihadists, but pulling out of the Middle East entirely would also give them what they want. One must not forget that US intelligence reports have described how the Iraq War has served as a cause celebre for al Qaeda.

Where are the Muslims who will use this? Why aren’t they saying, “Hey, I may be a Muslim, but I’m not a Jihadist…..”

Is there anyone who is going to say that?

This reminds me of the interview that Glen Beck did with the Muslim congressman Keith Ellison a few years back where Beck more or less implied that Ellison had to prove he wasn’t with the jihadists. The burden of proof is not on the Muslim to prove that they are not with the violent extremists; instead the burden is on the non-Muslim to prove that the average Muslim is with the violent jihadist or extremist, because simply being a Muslim is not enough of a reason to believe that they are. The last I checked there were literally dozens if not hundreds of different sects and denominations within the Muslim religion.

Chris

Most sensible people are not stridently trying to halt it’s development – they would just like it’s developers to use a little common-sense (so often demanded by the right) and sensitivity (so often demanded by the left) and build the thing somewhere else. To build the mosque there is legal, constitutional and very, very foolish.

How is it any more insensitive for American Muslims to build a 17 storey community centre two blocks from Ground Zero when there are plans to construct a 540 metre tall tower in the place of the original World Trade Centre, on the exact location that 3,000 people were killed in a terrorist attack?

Explain the logic behind the argument that it is not acceptable for Muslims unaffiliated with the terrorists to build a community centre on their own land where no one was murdered but it is reasonable to build a skyscraper on the site where thousands of people, including Western Muslims, were slaughtered.

I’m disappointed that so many of us are against it in this case.

Couldn’t agree more.

I’ll say all sorts of bad things about Islam. Heck, I’ll even go out on a limb and say that my gut feeling is that certain aspects of Islam – even mainstream Islam — make it more dangerous (by a hair) than the other major world religions, in that it practically begs to be mutated into extremism.

But none of that should let us get suckered into going along with Christianist theocrats who want to shred the First Amendment. Even if you think the “mosque” is in “bad taste” (and that’s a tough sell, considering it’s more like a YMCA than a mosque, and considering it’s nowhere near Ground Zero), now is not the time to say so. There is one message and only one message only that is appropriate right now: The theocrats are wrong, and the group has every right to build what they want on their private property.

And I daresay it will almost undoubtedly be good for the community too. Hmmm, abandoned Burlington coat factory vs. a shiny new YMCA Muslim community center…. easy call!

I wrote the previous before seeing the Olbermann video. WOW. Everybody should see that.

I say yes, by all means they should build it and not give in to this, boogie man mentality that seems to grip everyone one you say the word Muslim. As an atheist its just another church on a corner to me, as an American, they have a right to worship where and when they please as much as I have the right not to. Just because some nuts wanted to blow up 2 towers and 4 planes in the name of their god, it does not give us Americans the moral grounds to condemn a religion of millions and millions of people that want nothing else than a better tomorrow. Let us not forget the number of people in history that in Jesus name committed acts of barbarism, and I doubt that any religion ever conceived, didn’t have a few screwballs running around that thought they could change the world with a provocative act committed in the name of their lord.
As far as the location argument is concerned as being to close to the attack sight. Let us remember this is not the world trade center,, this is 2 blocks away. There is a building that was attacked on 9/11 that has a real mosque, (not a cultural center) right INSIDE of it. It is called the pentagon. Wake up America, this is really getting ugly and I hope that my country is better than this petty argument