Welcome to Church… No Questions Allowed

I have seen people have some heated arguments about how to interpret or apply what the bible said, but no questions that might threaten the status quo.

I asked and was made to feel stupid or wrong for asking … I was considered without faith when I persisted; which ironically I was as I got older. Often unanswered or made to feel like I was ‘nit-picking.’

I can only speak from my past experience (Reform Jewish Temple) – questions were encouraged and blind adherence was not valued as much as studied and interpreted personal faith. Doesn’t mean it isn’t all BS anyway! 🙂

If you’re already questioning, you’re as good as “out”. Questions are for people who doubt, not for people who have faith.

I related very much to Julia Sweeney’s recounting of her back-and-forth with Father Whatshisname when she first did the bible study. The degree of openness to “questioning” may be relative, but here’s the thing. Even the most progressive churches, clerics, or religious teachers I’ve ever known- the ones who are ostensibly supportive of critical thinking in theory- would eventually shut down the conversation if their “answers” weren’t sufficient for you. That’s usually about the point where, for all the grand claims to explanations and revelations that’ll blow your mind, when it’s still obvious the Emperor is ass-nekkid as ever, the “well, you just gotta have faith” trope gets trotted out in contemptuous exasperation.

I grew up Quaker, the Society of Friends. They are very open to questions, to the point where you no longer need to be Christian.
This excludes, of course Evangelical Friends. They, in my opinion, miss the point of it being a personal religion.
I now consider myself an Atheist Quaker. I like the moral background, just not the religious part.

In the beginning some people welcome questions. But it breaks down once your questions go beyond what was good enough for them. In fact they seem personally offended that you are asking questions.

I had a pastor into apologetics, he was one of the few who would talk to me or recommend books. Everyone else just told me I didn’t have enough faith, or worse, “people don’t need to know that”. Christians have very little regard for pure science and learning about the universe. If it’s not directly saving souls then it’s a distraction from the important stuff.

I grew up in the Episcopal church, in what I felt was a very loving, open community that tolerated difference and questions better than a lot of other churches I’d had experience with (I went to Catholic school for 9 years as well). I was never taught that the Bible was to be taken completely literally, and my love and pursuit of science was encouraged. In fact, I still feel more comfortable talking to Episcopal priests, even if I’ve just met them, about my studies in evolutionary biology than people I meet in my home town, because I’m not afraid of getting into an argument I don’t feel like having. Because of the non-literal interpretation of the bible, open discussion about the meaning of the scripture and of the arguments of theologians was something I experienced regularly. Despite this overall good experience with the church (there were of course bad things as well), it got to the point where the answers to the really big questions were just not good enough. For me, there is no logical reason to believe in a god, or in Jesus as the messiah or anything supernatural at all. Oddly enough, I think part of the reason it took me so long to really define myself as an atheist was because I wasn’t pressured by my church community to stop questioning. I was allowed to call myself christian even without just accepting dogma. Either way though, I did end up losing faith.

Oddly enough, I think part of the reason it took me so long to really define myself as an atheist was because I wasn’t pressured by my church community to stop questioning. I was allowed to call myself christian even without just accepting dogma.

I think this is an interesting statement, and it makes you even more respectable, as far as I’m concerned. A lot of atheists end up here out of anger and/or resentment at the dead-ends they keep getting, and it’s easy (sort of) to just wash your hands of the whole thing in disgust. But leaving even when no one is really being disgusting to you is harder. So, kudos.

As a young adult, chasing a girl led to a long involvement in a United Methodist church. One of the pastors that came through (they rotate every few years) was a remarkable woman. I had always been open about my lack of faith, but not challenging, and I enjoyed the singing and group inclusion. She saw an opportunity to use my unique (for that group) point of view and would beg me to come to the bible study sessions. When asked why, she said that I was the perfect devil’s advocate that might offer some real challenges to their faith. In her opinion, if you can’t defend it, you had no right to believe it. I could never get past their rationalizations, but she is one of the very few christians I’ve ever met who I actually respect, and still do.

And it’s that mindset I’ve tried to instill in my own daughter, who, I am quite proud to say, has recently come out as an atheist herself at age 18, despite being raised in the church by my christian wife.

In the church I grew up in, we were encouraged to ask questions. Even though I would consider it a fundamentalist church, when I went back as an adult and asked if I could lead Sunday School singing even though I’m an atheist, the minister said, “Sure.” Here’s the Wikipedia article about this denomination:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_Christian_Churches/Churches_of_Christ
If you look at the list of what the article labels “slogans” you will perhaps get a feeling for why questions are encouraged.

Questioning is the beginning of science, the seed of rationality. Of course it’s not welcome in religion.

I was afraid to ask questions in my catholic school but I never stopped asking questions about religion to myself. Nobody asked questions in class. If people did, the answer usually was “you gotta have faith.” If someone asked about sins, the response would be “well, that person will go to hell then.”

I sometimes wish I had enough courage to question my religion teachers in school but I guess that was just as well. People already didn’t like me in my catholic grade school.

I wouldn’t say that my church (and various other religious groups) actively encouraged questioning, but I will note that, when I decided to convert to Humanism, my Christian friends were remarkably understanding. We had long talks and they tried to bring me back, but never in a threatening way, and at the end of it all I was still friends with everybody. The only person who got mad at me was some guy on the internet.

When I was a pastor (yes, in a Christian church), I took every opportunity I could to question, from the pulpit and in smaller discussions, traditional understandings of scripture. Most of my parishioners found it refreshing and challenging, and it helped them craft faith statements that actually helped them live their lives, rather than hiding behind a curtain of “make-believe.”

But uncertainty is scary. Just as some atheists react with anger, mockery, and other defensive gestures when asked if there might be some transcendent “something” in the universe that’s outside human comprehension, some theists react similarly when asked if there might NOT be.

The bottom line is that we don’t–in fact, by definition, CAN’T–know definitively about things that are beyond our biological capability for understanding. Admitting we don’t know is a sign of maturity, not of weakness.

But you don’t have to be a theist to be closed-minded about your beliefs.

I’m pretty sure my pastor knows I’m apostate at this point but made a point of telling my family that we were very much considered a part of the church family — and not in a “come in, bring $$s” way. In a way that said, you’re welcome regardless of what you’re struggling with.

My problem is finding anyone to field questions who doesn’t fall back on the same old same old I’ve heard since I was three.

I was raised atheist by my parents and was very happy knowing that I wasn’t forced to believe anything for fear of punishment. I was often approached by students in grade school and high school asking if I’d join them in their “youth groups”. So, I’d go with a plethora of questions to ask (nothing particularly negative, I was honestly curious about the answers I’d receive). But, I was instead thrown out. Literally THROWN OUT of most of the churches. Why? Because I’d ask questions. It really helped solidify, in my mind, that these belief systems don’t “hold water”. If they can’t answer these questions, why do they believe in it?
“THE EARTH IS FLAT!!”

A Christian church that accepted questions? No. Whenever I asked questions as a child in the Nazarene church, the Sunday School teacher would roll her eyes and send me to the “adult” sermon to sit with my parents.

I attended a Unitarian Universalist Congregation not long ago, and one entire service–which was held in the forest, I might add–was about questioning a sermon from a few weeks before. The leaders said they had received a lot of questions about the ethical implications of a particular fable they had used and wanted to open the discussion to the members. We were broken into groups and asked to answer some of the more popular questions. Every viewpoint was respected.

Interestingly enough, the article’s account has been suspended. I wonder what neighbour-loving Constitution-boffing Christian filed a complaint.

When I actually went to church, and had to take confirmation classes, I would ask the pastor a lot of questions, if only just to piss him off. Some were stupid and made some other students yell at me to shut up for once, but some were logical and not intended to cause a scene or anything. I expected the pastor to kick me out (my goal) or to tape my mouth or something. After we all finally graduated, I got a thank you card in the mail from him, saying that he ‘appreciated my questions and liked to see someone like me thinking and digging into what they believe.’ I still have that card.

I remember the Rabbi who led my B’nai Mitzvah class say that no prayer was real unless it came from the heart. And then not ten minute later, we were told our homework was to memorize the Birchot HaShachar, a list of sixteen prayers that include thanking God for providing for our needs, for giving us wisdom, for crowning Israel with glory.

Of particular interest to me was one that thanks God for not making the petitioner a woman. (Women say one that thanks God for making her according to His will.) Now the explanation is that men are inherently more sinful than women (which is why women historically need to be Bat Mitzvahed) and need to meet special obligations to keep themselves right with God. Men were thanking God that they were created able to fulfill these obligations. Even at 11, I knew that 1) this explanation was complete BS–Judaism has its origins in times of misogyny (that it was less misogynistic than the religions at the time is immaterial), and 2) if the only real prayer comes from the heart, then why the heck are we memorizing prayers?

I was Bat Mitzvahed because I didn’t have the heart to upset my mother, and didn’t go back to Sunday School afterward.

muggle,

Are you talking about Kevin Marshall?

Why I Am (not telling many people I’m) an Atheist By Kevin Marshall

He makes a bunch of wild accusations about “many” atheists. Things like they are hostile to all believers, they think faith is always discriminative and hateful, or it’s the root of all societies ills and conflicts. I read a lot of opinions from atheists, I don’t come across this, and I wouldn’t expect to because it’s incredibly stupid nonsense. He emphatically embraced all the negative qualities he was accusing this fictional hoard of “anti-theist” straw atheists. He also called this nameless fictional group of atheists equivalent to fundamentalists, which really pisses me off. When he mentions that atheists are atheists because they “hate God” or “want to feel superior” I thought the post might be prank. Atheists hating gods they don’t believe in? Someone gleefully building a horrendous strawman to feel superior accusing others of that sort of thing.

The only reason he is being such a douchebag is because he believes in belief as a matter of dogma. Marshall can’t accept that some people disagree. He thinks that people use religion just as an excuse to do what they want when they’re doing bad things. Yet in the next comment says they’re motivated to do many good things because of their faith. Basically he is saying that people are inherently bad, will find excuses to do bad things, and that they need faith to be motivated to do good. Denying psychology, the evolutionary roots of morality. Denying history, the fanatical adherence to scriptures moral commandments, and the hostility towards science throughout the ages.

Fuck that dishonest, arrogant, hypocritical prick.

Hoverfrog –

I had no idea that they didn’t even arrive at their position by seeking to understand it but instead accept it without question.

Of course we seek to understand. Why do atheists assume that those of faith “blindly” believe/accept doctrine and are not capable of critical thought? (I’m speaking of Christianity, I cannot speak for any other faith). Of course we question, and we wrestle with the same questions that atheists do. The difference is we believe that God is the ultimate authority, not man.

Oh sure, my Catholic Church welcomed questions. All throughout the confirmation classes I had to take they made a point to ask if we had questions.

They didn’t like it much when I told them their answers weren’t answers. “Faith” answers nothing, but apparently it is the answer to every question about Catholoc dogma.

Fundie Troll,

Of course we seek to understand. Why do atheists assume that those of faith “blindly” believe/accept doctrine and are not capable of critical thought? (I’m speaking of Christianity, I cannot speak for any other faith). Of course we question, and we wrestle with the same questions that atheists do. The difference is we believe that God is the ultimate authority, not man.

Arguments for God revolve around arguments from ignorance like the fine-tuned universe or the teleological argument. I easily accept that people honestly accept these obviously fallacious arguments. That only gets you so far as a theistic god at most. So perhaps there’s cases where people are persuaded to be theists by logic in this way, even if it is fallacious. Saying there’s a theistic god doesn’t make a religion, it actually doesn’t say anything useful at all. Accepting a theistic god, no thoughts, intentions, or actions (apart from those believed to be designed) of that god follow from accepting that belief. You could only say “this god created the universe or life”, you can’t even say whether the god actually cares how it turns out.

Other arguments from ignorance like the intelligent design argument deny evidence. These people have shown that they are denialists, they don’t honestly come to their beliefs on the matter. They freely admit that they are more concerned with the moral consequences than the truth. They have already committed themselves to the doctrine that the Bible is literally true.

Atheists assume religious people blindly believe because they do. There’s no attempt at logic or gathering evidence behind the beliefs of Christianity. Christians don’t just believe in a deistic or theistic god, they believe a lot more. What are the arguments for the belief that the Bible contains the words of genuine prophets? The only people trying to justify Christian beliefs are Christians who have already accepted the authority of the Bible, therefore use circular arguments. Does anyone who is not a Christian suspect for a minute that the Bible stands up to the briefest of critical thought?

I grew up being dragged to various Southern Baptist Sunday schools, but this was before the right-wing crazies took over, and the teachers and preachers were all pretty mild. They didn’t mind questions from kids, but they never had any answers either. This didn’t make them mad, but the baffled expressions on their faces gave me the first hint that something there was fundamentally (heh) wrong.

There’s a church near me that hangs out a big banner that says “Doubters Welcome!” Knowing what kind of church it is, I’m skeptical of how open they are to actual questioning of their assertions.

Of course we question, and we wrestle with the same questions that atheists do. The difference is we believe that God is the ultimate authority, not man.

Huh. That suggests to me that we’re not wrestling with the same questions. If your answers involve the assumption of a specific deity, then we’re not asking the same questions at all.