Spartanburg Councilwoman Linda Dogan’s Anti-Gay Rant of Love

In Spartanburg, South Carolina, Mayor Junie White is a strong ally of the LGBT community.

In late May, he signed a proclamation marking today, June 19^th, Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender Pride Day.

[The mayor signed] a resolution that states, “The city of Spartanburg supports efforts to ensure that everyone has the right to live in conditions of dignity, respect and peace” and “Pride Week celebrations contribute to reducing discrimination, isolation and barriers faced by the Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender and Two Spirited community.”

…

“I’m very excited, and I think it’s a sign that Spartanburg is willing to recognize everyone who lives in the city and outside the city and it recognizes civil rights and how we should respect and accept an individual’s choices,” said Councilwoman Cate Ryba, who attended last year’s march.

A week later, Mayor White wrote this wonderful op-ed piece in the Herald-Journal.

I believe that in time, just like with the right of American women to vote, and the right of people of any race to marry people of another race, most people will come to agree that all people should be afforded the same right to love and marry whom they please, work where they please, and enjoy these rights without worry.

All the LGBT folks want to do is have a march, to be recognized in their struggle to have the same rights as all other Americans. As mayor of the city of Spartanburg, I am proud that their organization came forward to ask for the proclamation, because they believe in our city, that Spartanburg is a place where all persons can speak up without fear.

That’s all they want — a march to be recognized. They want to show people they exist. And that there’s nothing wrong with who they are.

But wait.

Civil rights? For LGBT people?! We can’t have that, said a whole bunch of local Christians.

Yesterday, there was a protest against the Pride Day in front of Spartanburg City Hall.

Joining them was City Councilwoman Linda Dogan.

You have to hear this speech she gives. It’s vile… she is *really* angry that the LGBT community is getting any recognition.

I listened to that disgusting speech. And then I started it over, clenched my teeth, and transcribed the damn thing just to get it on record.

Grace and peace be with you, from God, our father, and our Lord, Jesus Christ. I’m not coming to you as a city councilperson. I’m coming to you as a child of God.

You know, what people don’t understand, we are not speaking hate. We are speaking love. But as a child of God, God says, “If you deny me, I will deny you.”

And for this proclamation to go on without the knowledge of full council is an insult. In my 16 years as a council member, I have never been so embarrassed. You know, for our families, this is an insult. And it’s early to say… I love [Mayor] Junie White, but he will go down as the worst mayor of the city of Spartanburg. The worst. [Crowd yells, “Right on!”] And it’s not hate.

But let me go a little deeper. As a black woman, born in Spartanburg, South Carolina, born during segregation, not one time we rode the back of the bus they ask you if you were gay or not. They looked at the color of your skin and they said, “You got to go, then.”

…

So when you talk about civil rights, you talk about stuff that’s real, that people have gone through. I went to a restaurant when I was 17. They said, “I’m sorry but you can’t come in the front door.” The thing about being black, I can’t take this off. But being gay or lesbian or whatever you want to call it, you can choose to be that way. You can choose to be that way. I can’t choose to be black. I’m proud of it. I am proud of it because God made us all equal.

The insult is deeper. It’s not only Christians that it’s offensive, but as a black person. And I want to know where the black pastors are. [Crowd yells, “Where you at?”] You know, you can get mad at me if you want to. I’m used to people being mad at me. But you should be here! You should be here. Not to spew hate, but to give love. And I’m sick of people saying I don’t have compassion. I’m one of the more compassionate people that you will ever find. I’ve never said to a gay person, “I hate you ’cause of what you do.” I’ve never shown ’em any difference than anybody else. But trust me, I felt the difference — as a black woman.

…

And I am not preaching, because I am not a preacher. [Crowd yells, “Yes, you are!”] I’m not a preacher. But I want you to know that I am not up here saying, “Hate.” I’m saying, “Love you.” But we don’t need to endorse YOUR lifestyle because you not going to endorse MY lifestyle. And to cause this, this division of our city, of our county, is just wrong.

If you’re true to the cause… you don’t have to cause that disruption. And I ask all of you here not to go to that parade, because you’re giving them what they want. They want you to go out there and howl at them and say, “You’re wrong.” Stay at home and pray for them! I just thank you all for taking this stand and sharing love. Make no mistake about it. This is love that we’re sharing. Nothing else.

And at 56 years old, when God had better send me somebody, it’s gonna be a man. A man.

You know, God bless you all. Thank you.

Where to begin…?

Ugh, I don’t know where to start. Feel free to pick it apart in the comments.

Just remember: they’re not proclaiming hate. They’re full of love. Pure love. All kinds of love. Loving love. Not hate. Love.

Couldn’t you hear it in her speech…?

***Update***: As one commenter notes, here’s the original proclamation:

“WHEREAS, the city of Spartanburg supports efforts to ensure that everyone has the right to live in conditions of dignity, respect and peace; and

WHEREAS, the city of Spartanburg continues to advocate for the elimination of all forms of discrimination and is committed to equal treatment of all people; and

WHERE, Pride Week celebrations contribute to reducing discrimination, isolation, and barriers faced by the Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender and Two Spirited community.

NOW, THEREFORE, I, Junie L. White, by virtue of the authority vested in me as Mayor of the city of Spartanburg, and on behalf of my fellow City Council members, do hereby proclaim June 19, 2010, as:

LGBT PRIDE DAY.”

After Dogan complained, the mayor amended the proclamation:

… he removed the words, “On behalf of my fellow City Council members,” from the proclamation to, “Keep the peace.”

This happened weeks before she gave the speech in the video.

(Thanks to Seth for the link)

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Christian (my name, not my religion)

Thank you for yet another shining example of an idiot “in service of lord.” And a true hypocrite at that! Should we be surprised? Nah. Just disappointed that others continue to be misled by the propaganda of religion and its false promises of hope and redemption. This so-called rant of Ms. Dogan’s should be indicative of her IQ. Hey…let’s use this as a new measuring stick of others’ intelligence! The more hate-filled an individual is, the less intelligent he is. Oh wait…we already knew that.
OneTrueKinsman

Idiot.

Far be it from me to be an expert on bigotry, but coming from a black woman who had first hand experience with segregation and racial discrimination, what right does she have to be such a bigot herself?

The ‘hated’ become the ‘haters’.
Heidi

Wow. So because she’s black she’s what? Got a copyright on civil rights? My injustices are bigger than your injustices? Yeah, all that stuff that happened to her (and every other black person) was bad. Really, seriously, bad. We don’t do that anymore. And it’s not because someone was worried that they might cause a “division of our city, of our county.”

I barely made it through that whole six minutes once, so I’m impressed that you could stand to transcribe it, Hemant.
ASD

“But we don’t need to endorse YOUR lifestyle because you not going to endorse MY lifestyle.”

…wat.
I…words fail me here. Since when was this?
Musicmancz

I just had to laugh when she said it was God who saved her in the hot room, no wait it was her department head, but God too. And she wasn’t almost killed because she was gay (even though she’s not…) but BLACK ergo gay people don’t need rights.

you can choose to be that way
No, just no.
ASD

And as a sidenote: you’d think a black person who remembers segregation would know how much it hurts to be discriminated against.
Further evidence that there are a lot of people out there with the empathic skill of a teaspoon.
Christian ( but from now on I will use Manet, I dont like my name)

You would think that someone who was discriminated against would be more accepting of people who are different. But not if her imaginary friend says its not good. Since she cant choose to be black, its wrong to be segregated. But gays choose? I have heard this tons of times and I have a gay cousin that you could tell he was gay from a young age. Sure some are from experiences in their life, but other are born with those preferences. She is talking about blind hate. Its not right for her to force her religion on other people. She should stick to the love thy neighboor. And just accept everyone as EQUALS, just like she wanted to be accepted when she was young.
Ellie

It’s like spitting somebody in the face and telling them it’s for their refreshment.

Oh, yeah. There’s surely not a single black gay in there. Not one black gay over 50. I’d like to see her ranting all the bullshit again to someone like that. :]
Benjamin Kay

I think this little speech offers some great insight into the way these people’s minds work. Mind you I don’t condone what Councilwoman Dogan is saying in the least, but you have to understand, she genuinely doesn’t hate gay people. She may be disgusted by gay people, but she doesn’t “hate” them.

It’s an important distinction.

In “the poo poo comes out” Uganda, they *hate* gay people. They are considering a bill that would literally make being gay a capital offense.

Dogan doesn’t hate gay people. She tolerates them, like she tolerates the KKK’s right to assembly. But she certainly isn’t going to try to extend what are, in her view new, civil liberties to either group. Bear in mind, though, that she isn’t advocating the lynching of gay people or the confiscation of their property. (Although I’m not sure I can say the same of her audience.) In fact it sounds like if a gay person decided to become straight, she would even offer that person forgiveness and love!

Which is yet another fallacy people like Dogan believe. Being gay may be easier to hide than being black. But make no mistake, being gay is not a choice.

If you know what to look for you will find homophobic attitudes like Dogan’s are widespread in American society, cleverly disguised under a facade of tolerance. They offer people a way to feel virtuous about their treatment of gays without actually having to confront ideas that threaten their beliefs.
Larry White

You’re completely wrong about her intent. I guarantee you she, and all her kind, would forcibly impose their beliefs on you if they could get away with it. Don’t believe for a second that these folks are about love.
Claudia

Oh Mrs. Dogan, I know exactly how you feel. I mean, this unacceptable race-mixing thing. Blacks thinking they can go to the same school as whites and this ridiculous “Black History Month”. Its unnatural. And its not hate, its love. I mean, I love you Mrs. Dogan, which is why I hope you return to your natural place (i.e not one of authority). Like you, I’m frustrated that people say I lack compassion. I’m the most compassionate person you could meet, and feel a lot of pity for colored folks like yourself.

/sarcasm

I’m going to go throw up now.
Neon Genesis

Muslim terrorist believe their actions are justice too but believing something is just or love doesn’t count for much in my book. I have some Christian friends who believe homosexuality is a sin and they’re not vile like this woman is and they actually support gay rights because they know what real love is. I love how this woman tells the people not to protest against gay people and you should stay at home instead and pray while she’s protesting against gay people.
Advent

“You’re wrong.” Stay at home and pray for them! I just thank you all for taking this stand and sharing love. Make no mistake about it. This is love that we’re sharing. Nothing else.

This really infuriates me. These people must not listen to what they’re saying, because if they did they’d realise that it’s completely nonsensical.

How is any of what Dogan is saying here ‘sharing love’? It just amazes me that a person can be so utterly clueless about the words coming out of their own mouth as she is in this speech.

I’m convinced that future generations will look back on this kind of rhetoric and see it as a total lack of empathy. Theists like Dogan only think of gay people in terms of the shallow preconception they’ve internalized over the years, rather than as real people with an earnest desire for what they see as their deserved rights. They don’t disagree with the gay rights movement’s stated goals, they disagree with a narrow-minded fantasy of their own creation.
Phrosty

“… love… love… love… love…”

She keeps using that word. I do not think it means, what she thinks it means.
Maliknant

You’re absolutely right sweetheart. They CHOSE to be gay… the same way YOU chose to be straight. Because we all CHOOSE, don’t we? It’s not like we’re attracted to one or the other or both naturally. We CHOOSE what turns us on and makes us fall in love.

And if someone was telling you that because of the gender that you’re attracted to that your feelings are horrible and wrong and you were going to be tortured for an eternity in a fiery pit for loving those people, that wouldn’t be hate.

That would be love.

Can you all feel god’s love? It’s quite distinctive. It tends to make you want to vomit, or smash some hypocritical bigoted moron’s face in.
Dromedary Hump

It’s both fascinating and unfortunate that in minority communities hatred of gays runs much higher than among whites. You’d think they would be in a position to empathize.

But the depth of religious infection of minority groups as well as cultural imperitives (i.e. machismo) seems to be a driving factor.

Id proffer that if there were never any “sacred texts” this whole concept of discrimination based on sexual identity/preference would never exist. Does anyone know of any other documented historical prohibitions except in religious text?
Will

Did anyone else see how ridiculously small that crowd was?
Tony

She was a bit butch wasn’t she?
JD

Did no one point out that a lot of the civil rights injustices perpetrated against blacks was done by Christians? Christians persecuted interracial coupling thinking that God didn’t want the races to mix, and had such marriages annulled. Christians didn’t get the idea that racism was wrong, or that slavery was wrong, slavery was biblically justified in their view. Christians thought that blacks were a cursed race. Christians thought that Jim Crow divided facilities, transportation and restaurants was a good thing. Christians thought that blacks shouldn’t be allowed to vote, and thus given tests they themselves might not be able to pass without cheating. Christians were probably present at lynchings too, helping, planning, justifying etc.

So what is this about this God that didn’t have the insight or power to prevent or stop this?
Citizen Z

I think it’s worth looking at the full proclamation, to see how much love the Councilwoman has.

“WHEREAS, the city of Spartanburg supports efforts to ensure that everyone has the right to live in conditions of dignity, respect and peace; and
WHEREAS, the city of Spartanburg continues to advocate for the elimination of all forms of discrimination and is committed to equal treatment of all people; and
WHERE, Pride Week celebrations contribute to reducing discrimination, isolation, and barriers faced by the Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender and Two Spirited community.
NOW, THEREFORE, I, Junie L. White, by virtue of the authority vested in me as Mayor of the city of Spartanburg, and on behalf of my fellow City Council members, do hereby proclaim June 19, 2010, as:
LGBT PRIDE DAY.”

Here’s how the Councilwoman loves gays.

“I love you, but I don’t think you should be respected or live in peace.”

“I love you, but some forms of discrimination against you are ok.”

“I love you, but there should be barriers around you isolating you.”

Love, love, love.

The full text of the resolution can be found here. The story notes that the mayor amended the proclamation. He removed the phrase “and on behalf of my fellow City Council members”.
Max

“you have to understand, she genuinely doesn’t hate gay people…. she doesn’t ‘hate’ them.”

No, we don’t have to understand that at all. What are you, chairman of the Genuineness Committee and you are magically empowered to certify this woman’s genuine non-hatred? If it sounds like hate and acts like hate and smells like hate and feels like hate, I’m going to go out on a limb and suggest it is hate.
fea24

I know a number of Blacks who honestly believe that Blacks are the only people ever to have been oppressed in the entire history of the world. Their main argument is always that the rest of us could always deny what we are but they can’t because of the color of their skin.

Yet, when anyone suggests that maybe giving up some of the “Black” behaviors would help them get better opportunities for jobs and education, they claim racism even though it’s what every group has always done to get ahead.
Citizen Z

About the whole “choosing” thing, this protest sign is the most succint summation of the argument I’ve seen.
Palaverer

“We are speaking love. But . . .”

I stopped reading here. The love ends before the but.
Claudia

@Benajamin Kay, lets take her at her word and assume she doesn’t “hate” gay people. I’m afraid that’s irrelevant in this case. She’s doing hateful things to gay people. She’s taking time out of her day to protest a proclamation that gay people should be trated with respect and not discriminated against. Her actions matter more than her heart because her actions are, if she’s telling the truth, entirely divorced from her self-proclaimed feelings. When a man beats a woman but claims to love her, does that make it even one bit better? No, we assume that he’s either lying, or has a very twisted concept of what “love” means and in either case needs to be dealt with in a manner that neutralizes him as a threat. She may be campaigning to make the lives of GLBT people more difficult, more lonely, more frightening out of “love”, but she is a clear and present danger to the community and should be dealt with accordingly.
Carlie

I understand what Benjamin was saying. In the minds of those people like the councilwoman, “hate” means a strong, violent dislike, the way you hate a friend who has betrayed you, or the way you hate a person who has hurt someone you love. To them, what they’re feeling and acting towards others can’t possibly be hate, because they don’t have those bad feelings about it. Why, some of them even feel terrible about acting that way, because they love those gay people! And they wouldn’t have to treat them like crap if they’d just stop being queer! What is weird is that they understand that “love” has the same problem – I’ve often heard sermons about how love is what you DO and how you treat people, rather than what you feel. Pity they don’t understand that hate is the same way – it’s what you DO to people, not how you feel about doing it, that defines hate.
Riccardo

The more times a devoted Christian uses the word “love” in his speech, the more filled with hate that same speech is going to be.
DemetriusOfPharos

The irony… it burns us. </Gollum>
Benjamin Kay

What are you, chairman of the Genuineness Committee and you are magically empowered to certify this woman’s genuine non-hatred?”

Well I’m not telepathic, so I can’t “certify” what Dogan is thinking. Likewise, I can’t read your mind to find out what definition of “hate” you’re working off of.

What I can do is share my experiences from when I was a casual homophobe who held many of the opinions espoused by Dogan. I certainly didn’t love gay people, but I didn’t hate them either. At least not in the sense of wishing them harm or suffering.

If it sounds like hate and acts like hate and smells like hate and feels like hate, I’m going to go out on a limb and suggest it is hate.

Let’s imagine that Dogan is the variety of Christian who imagines that:
1. Being gay is a choice
2. Choosing to be gay = will go to hell
Then making homosexuals’ lives difficult isn’t hateful, it’s (incredibly misguided) tough love.

I agree with you that Dogan’s behavior certainly conveys the attitude of hate. If I were a gay person listening to Dogan’s speech, I would be thinking, “Why does Councilwoman Dogan hate me so much?” And it might comfort me to demonize her as purely evil. But if I wanted to change her attitude — and I do — then I would need to go beyond how vile her speech is and try to understand what would make a human being say such “hateful” things.
Not Guilty

There are 2 reasons why I know being gay isn’t a choice. 1) If I could choose to be a lesbian I would, so as to avoid subjecting myself to many of the stupid men I deal with.

2) Nobody would choose to be the victim of such vile hatred. Nobody would choose to be blamed for earthquakes and hurricanes. Nobody would choose to be considered the scourge of the Earth by every religious group out there. So no, being LGBT is not a choice. Choosing to be LGBT would be like choosing to be tortured.

Props to the Mayor for standing his ground. He is an honourable man who I would love to meet.
Not Guilty

@CitizenZ That picture is amazing! LOVE, love, love, love it!!!
ckitching

Citizen Z, nice sign, but I ‘m not sure it’s accurate. While I think it’s almost completely wrong to say gay people choose to be gay, I don’t think saying they were born gay is quite correct either. Human development is extremely complex, and there is almost certainly environmental factors that can contribute. Hormonal changes during early development, and throughout childhood are known to have fairly large impacts on behaviour.

Furthermore, saying you were born gay almost makes it sound like it’s a birth defect (although I admit that some genes have been discovered that appear to predispose some individuals). But, I guess I don’t really have a better alternative to suggest, except to simply state what you are, rather than attaching conditions to it.

I’m probably making too much of this, though.
Jude

Back in college, my boyfriend had an annoying “born-again” roommate. This was over 30 years ago, and my only memory of him is that he frequently scratched his crotch in front of me. One day we got into an argument about something and he screamed at me “You are so *difficult* to love!” I laughed at him then and now. Poor Christian prick, trying to follow the injunction to “love one another”–he couldn’t love me. In my Christian upbringing, no one ever said anything negative about lgbt people. Maybe that’s because we all loved Pat and Betty, the lesbians who ran the airport. Maybe it’s because it was the West where we had a live-and-let-live attitude. I don’t need this woman to love me and pray for me (I’m straight, but she’d pray for me as an atheist as well). It’s the old argument about why it’s important to come out–if you know that you know a gay person, and you like that gay person, you can no longer treat him/her as an it. She receives praise for her bigotry. I hate that she believes this, but maybe because of it, someone will confront her with a different view of reality. Maybe she’ll find your blog post and our comments. Maybe she uses Google Alerts.
Jeigh

This is more about ignorance than about hate….seems to me the large majority of all anti-LGBT sentiment starts with the false belief that being gay is a choice.

People like this believe something that is plainly false, and therefore their opinions about rights, etc are clouded. So the fundamental question is….how do we get people to realize that they believe something that is simply NOT true?? Not just to ‘accept’ or ‘tolerate’…but to truly understand that they believe a non-truth?

Grrr, this stuff hurts me and makes me so sad, I cant even express myself coherently…
John

Its “Christians” like her that REINFORCE MY ATHEISM! And as much as I support LGZBT rights to march in “Pride Parades”, I would just caution them, that the more “out” you are about WHO you are, is just more ammunition for the pathetic wastes of oxygen consumption that this intolerant city councilwoman is!
revyloution

Disgusting.

Slightly off topic, I always thought the LGBT acronym should have the letters rearranged.

BLGT would be much better. It rolls off the tongue easier, and can be turned into a positive word. B-LeGiT. Legitimize a persons sexuality.
Not Guilty

@ckitching Considering the LGBT community uses the argument that they are “born” that way, I do think you are looking too much into it. The idea behind saying one is “born gay” is not to say they came out of the womb gay, it is to emphasize that it is not a choice. I was born a woman; I can’t change that. I can change whether I continue to be a woman, but I will always have been born one. It’s the same thing. Nobody thinks it’s the same as being born with a defect. Besides, what is a “birth defect”? That is such a fluid definition. It’s a matter of opinion, IMO. As far as I am concerned, if the LGBT community wants to say they were “born” gay, then I will use that expression. They get to define themselves however they want.

@John Everything religious people do re-affirms my atheism. They’re helpful like that. I doubt I will ever have a moment where I realize I was wrong to be atheist because they are so good at proving me right!
Olivia

It’s difficult to believe that she’s really proud of who she is -proud of the fact that she’s black- after saying something like not being able to “take this off”. I suppose the reason why so many people defend their “christian” lifestyle so fiercely is because they try damn hard to abide by such rigid and puritan rules- only to get pissed if anyone else so blatantly chooses otherwise (How are you able to just walk away like that? Don’t you feel guilty!? But what about God?”). One gets angry because she is unable to put down what the next person has. It’s like being bound in chains (and she knows she’s gonna keep ’em) while watching the next person walk away whistling in leisure.
Insignificant Speck

An official proclomation in SOUTH CAROLINA supporting gay rights??? Makes me happy
Paul

I can see the demotivational poster now…

[Image of Dogan]
Love
“You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. “
Matto the Hun

Thanks to people like her, I can actually appreciate and have an odd (and small) measure of respect for Westboro Baptist Church. At least they are honest about being hateful.
Christopher George

As the guy who shot that video, I just want to say thank you for posting it. We need to have as many people as possible view the vile filth spewing from that woman’s mouth.
Melody

I wish I could think of something other to say, but the only thing that comes to mind right now is…gross!
Matt

It reminds me of the kid at school whose dad beats him, so he becomes the school bully and torments the computer geeks.

Maybe if she says “love” enough she’ll convince herself she isn’t a delusional, hate-filled bitch.
Citizen Z

There’s a Woody Allen movie called “What’s Up Tiger Lilly”, Woody and his friends dubbed over a Japanese spy movie. At one point the bad guy has the hero tied up.

“But you said you loved me!”
“I love you in my own way.”
Alex

Even IF being gay were simply a choice, completely and utterly up to an individual, that would in still no way justify any sort of discrimination. It is a private act that doesn’t harm anyone. It would be like making an “anti-doggy-style” organization.
miller

Let me point out that the choice thing is somewhat of a red herring. Suppose that there existed some operation to make black people white. Wouldn’t it be abhorrent to discriminate against black people just because they could have chosen to make themselves white?

Formally, Dogan’s reasoning is:
1. Gay people chose to be that way.
2. If gay people chose to be that way, it would be okay to discriminate against them.

Wrong on both counts.
Slickninja

She’s a bigot and while I’m not fond of the term, she’s playing the race card to hide behind.
margaret y.

Love? Love? Truly?

Love the sinner and hate the sin might sound great on the giving end, but on the receiving end, it’s all hate.
littlejohn

Wait a minute, she may have a point.
After all, previously black Michael Jackson made a decision to become white.
And as with all his medical decisions, that worked out real well.
Yet Another Atheist

Her entire (hate) love speech is based upon the faulty premise that being gay is a choice. It’s beyond ironic that a black woman, who has experienced discrimination and prejudice, would fail to see the most basic fact about homosexuality: that it’s not a choice, but instead a realization that people come to at various stages in their lives.

Once she and other (hate) lovemongers like her realize that homosexuality is a result of biological and neurochemical factors, they will finally understand what gay people are trying to fight for.

This isn’t a group of people who kick old ladies and eat babies (wait, that’s us) trying to get acceptance for their choice of actions — this is a group of people who are a certain way, who can’t help it any more than we can choose who to fall in love with, and who just want equal rights.
Justin

That speech was so rambling and clumsy, I can’t even get mad about it.
Carol B

It’s always astounded me how much anti-gay discrimination black folks can dole out (I’m thinking of black Prop 8 supporters in California, but Dogan is another lovely example). How can black folks, who have experienced discrimination, possibly endorse discrimination against others? It’s baffling! It’s stupid! Oh, wait, that’s right, it’s biblically-endorsed religion. It’s love! *barf*

We just need them to all die out. Gay rights will win in the end, like black civil rights won out, because anything less is discrimination and prejudice. Progress happens. But it sure takes a long time, forcing these Bible-thumping haters to accept others…
Carol B

Oh, @revyloution:

Your re-arranged acronym is brilliant!!!!

🙂
TooManyJens

Oh, yeah. There’s surely not a single black gay in there. Not one black gay over 50.

I wonder if she thinks Bayard Rustin thought it was right that he fought for his rights as a black man only to be denied them as a gay man.
Don

That woman has no class, no brains, and no idea what love is. Her attitude makes her ugly to the core, and a truly horrible excuse for a human being.
Crodley

“And at 56 years old, when God had better send me somebody, it’s gonna be a man. A man.”

I think this transcript should be updated to say: “And at 56 years old, when God GETS READY send me somebody, it’s gonna be a man. A man.”

I’m pretty sure that is what she said. And by the way that is an amazing quote there. After 56 years god still hasn’t endorsed her getting a man?

It seems obvious to me she is jealous of BLGT’s since one of her sticking points is that (in her mind) they can change their lifestyle, but she cannot change being black. Implying she would if she could.

It fills me with sadness for this person more than anything else.

Two more points; How in the heck did she get elected? Who was writing her campaign speeches for her?

And I’m surprised nobody is talking about the separation of church and state thing with her giving a sermon on public ground, (outside the City Hall? flags flying behind her?) and clearly being a representative of the people who elected her.

Anyway, it’s an eye-opening video for sure!
hoverfrog

She was unopposed in her relection last year. That leaves plenty of time for a local person to build up a base of support to stand against her in time for the next election. Bigots should certainly be entitled to air their views and then lose the popular support of the people.
Neon Genesis

Doesn’t the bible say it’s a sin for Dogan to preach over men since she’s a woman?
Moose

Not that Australia is really any better than the USA in the racism/hate/piety realm (we have our share of idiots here too)…

People like her are why I left. The prime reason was actually the Shrub-but she certainly ranks up there with him in sheer stupidity.

How do these idiots always manage to get elected?

Ohhh-riiight. She’s from South Carolina…

If she said that in San Francisco her political career would simply be OVER-the “boys” would see to it.
Carlie

Someone needs to show that woman all of the historical data where every argument she’s making are the exact same ones that were used by lawyers and pastors in Loving v. Virginia. God just didn’t mean for people of different races to get married, it was in the Bible, they were sure of it. It was just love that made people oppose mixed-race marriage so much, to protect those poor people who wanted to sin like that.
oddboyout

That very last statement about god sending her a man is very interesting. It gives me the impression she has had many opportunities with women.

The whole argument about being queer as a choice has never made sense to me. That’s like saying any decision you make in your life is a choice; and if it is not the same choice I make you should be condemned. Like:
– Marrying someone of another race is a choice.
– Voting is a choice.
– Being Christian is a choice.
– Riding on the bus is a choice.
– Going to a restaurant is a choice.
– Renting an apartment is a choice.
– Getting married is a choice.
– etc.

I choose to be queer. 🙂
Tometheus

While I don’t agree with her about discrimination against “teh gays”, it does bother me when people casually toss around comparisons to the Civil Rights movement or to the Jews under Nazi Germany. It seems to imply an ignorance of how bad history really was.

Interracial marriage was just a microscopic part of the Civil Rights movement, but people seem to forget about the right to vote, the rights to just use the same frickin’ drinking fountain or have the same education, the right to a fair trial and not be lynched, etc… and that’s just the “Civil Rights” era, we won’t even go into slavery.

So, yes, I’m 100% for gay rights, but can we just drop the whole gay vs black comparisons? It only brings out people like this woman and distracts from the issue at hand.
Tonis

Neon Genesis, if I remember correctly the Bible also said slavery was morally correct.

Hate how people claim to do the lord’s work by spewing such messages of ~~love~~ hate toward gays and gay supporters. Yet choose to look the other way when it comes to other things in the bible that are also clearly wrong. I think most of you know what I’m talking about here. Just the blatant hypocritical cherry-picking of the bible to justify their own personal bigotries. Making their messages of pure hatred and ignorance to messages love of infallibility.

Just purely discussing.
The First Beth

@ Carol B, you might want to clarify who exactly should “all die out.” From the context of your previous statements, it almost sounds like all the black folks should die out. I imagine that’s not what you meant, but just sayin’.

BLGT it is, Revylution!

You know, there was this funny idea we discussed in my Lesbian Lit class about how different minorities should back each other up so they aren’t all divided fighting each other over who’s most discriminated against, thereby giving the combination of all minorities a bigger amount of power. So even if the fight for racial equality is not exactly parallel to the fight for equality of the sexual orientations, they can certainly benefit each other.
Patrick O.

“Grace and peace be with you, from God, our father, and our Lord, Jesus Christ. I’m not coming to you as a city councilperson. I’m coming to you as a child of God.”

I see she is wearing her favorite torture device today. Since she is coming to us as a child of God, then this can be taken with a grain of salt. =)

“And for this proclamation to go on without the knowledge of full council is an insult. In my 16 years as a council member, I have never been so embarrassed. You know, for our families, this is an insult.”

H-A-T-E. This is hate. It does not matter is there is a proclamation or not. If a group of people want it one day then they will be able to celebrate that day proclamation or not. She is really arguing a non-issue. She uses this non-issue in order to mask the hate she has for LBGT’s.

“The thing about being black, I can’t take this off. But being gay or lesbian or whatever you want to call it, you can choose to be that way. You can choose to be that way. I can’t choose to be black. I’m proud of it. I am proud of it because God made us all equal.”

I love it when people say that you can choose to be gay. Well, where is your evidence? She is a hypocrite! She makes me embarrassed to be black.

Being gay can be changed just like skin color can be changed. You can bleach or try to act straight but the skin color will return to normal and you will still be gay.

God did not make us equal. People need to stop lying to themselves. First of all, God is seemingly imaginary just like Zeus or Thor. Second, there is no such thing as equality.

People are born everyday in different circumstances. There are people who are born without limbs, birth defects or simply born into a socioeconomic circumstance. Are they considered equal? People should stop kidding themselves when they say that God created everyone equal. However, we should have equal rights.

“Stay at home and pray for them! I just thank you all for taking this stand and sharing love. Make no mistake about it. This is love that we’re sharing. Nothing else.”

I do not like it when she said “pray for them” like it is some kind of disease that needs to be contained. She is definitely a closet bigot.

“And at 56 years old, when God had better send me somebody, it’s gonna be a man. A man.”

It is like the older generation has nothing else to do with their life that they have to be bigots. I actually fell really sorry for them because their close mindedness can only allow them to experience life through one narrow perspective. Have fun with your wife. =)
AxeGrrl

Tometheus wrote:

While I don’t agree with her about discrimination against “teh gays”, it does bother me when people casually toss around comparisons to the Civil Rights movement or to the Jews under Nazi Germany.

‘Casually toss around’? Tometheus, you’re aware that there were homosexuals murdered in Nazi Germany as well, yes? That they too were ‘picked out’ and snuffed out for simply being who they were, just like the Jews and the millions of others who were murdered by the Nazis?

“Homosexuals in the camps were treated in an unusually cruel manner by their captors, and were also persecuted by their fellow inmates. This was a factor in the high death rate for homosexuals, compared to other groups.

After the war, the treatment of homosexuals in concentration camps went unacknowledged by most countries, and some men were even re-arrested and imprisoned based on evidence found during the Nazi years.”

Persecution of homosexuals in Nazi Germany and the Holocaust
AxeGrrl

The First Beth wrote:

You know, there was this funny idea we discussed in my Lesbian Lit class about how different minorities should back each other up so they aren’t all divided fighting each other over who’s most discriminated against, thereby giving the combination of all minorities a bigger amount of power. So even if the fight for racial equality is not exactly parallel to the fight for equality of the sexual orientations, they can certainly benefit each other.

You nailed it 🙂

Playing ‘who’s the biggest martyr?’ or ‘whose shoulder chip is most earned’ is fruitless and generally belittling.

Sarah Silverman did a very funny bit on her show, in which she and a black guy fight over whether it’s ‘harder’ being black or being Jewish (i think she offended each group equally:)
Angie

Methinks Dogan doth protest too much! 😀
Miki

That is one big-ass cross hanging around her neck.

Anyway….

Up until the last thirty seconds I thought I was just listening to a self-hating black person. And then I heard the last thirty seconds and realized I was listening to a self-hating repressed black gay person.

That whole speech was about her, I hope y’all realize–her shortcomings, fears, insecurites…
Tometheus

AxeGrrl wrote:

‘Casually toss around’? Tometheus, you’re aware that there were homosexuals murdered in Nazi Germany as well, yes?

Yes I do know that, but you must be misunderstanding me because you’re making my point for me. You know full well that, when people say that California (regarding prop 8 ) is like Nazi Germany, they’re clearly forgetting what the Nazis actually did to people, whether gay or Jewish.
Carol B

@The First Beth: Sorry sorry sorry! I wrote that really badly, it does sound like I want all black people to die off, and I really really didn’t mean that! Yikes! Apologies to anyone who misunderstood my writing (can’t you all understand what I mean and not what I say?) 😉

Yes, I absolutely meant that all the bible-thumping haters need to die off. Well gosh, maybe even that’s too harsh a statement… Still, they spread their hate around, and repress the rights of others… as they “move on,” hopefully more forward progress can be made.
Tometheus

… as a further note, I do realize that the pro-prop 8 side made the Nazi comparison first, but two wrongs don’t make the Wright brothers fly … or something like that. Probably a bad example, but the point still stands. I’m tired of everyone comparing anything they don’t like to Nazi Germany.

Again, I’m on the pro-gay rights side, but it’s still not the same thing.
AxeGrrl

Tometheus wrote:

you must be misunderstanding me because you’re making my point for me. You know full well that, when people say that California (regarding prop 8 ) is like Nazi Germany, they’re clearly forgetting what the Nazis actually did to people

Ah, I didn’t realize you were specifically talking about Prop 8/California being ‘like Nazi Germany’ (too bad you’re not able to edit your original post and add that detail)

Comparing every cultural/political injustice to some of the most egregious things done to humans by humans is never a good strategy. You said it best right here:

I’m tired of everyone comparing anything they don’t like to Nazi Germany

Sometimes, when people make the comparison, I think the ‘connection’ they’re making is the basic impetus/mindset underlying the discrimination…………namely, hatred of the ‘other’ .
Tometheus

Also, I concede the Godwin, since I brought up the Holocaust, I lose the argument. (Even though I was trying to say NOT to use the comparison, along with the Civil Rights movement, as the comments clearly show, the Godwin always derails the point. My mistake.)
Demonhype

For my own part, I think I relate these injustices to things like the Civil Rights Movement or even the Nazis because of the fact that if you accept, endorse, or otherwise leave bigotry unchallenged, it can easily get to the point where you are reliving the Holocaust. I see it as a reminder of what can happen if loud-mouthed bigots are never challenged and are allowed to legislate their “Loving” hate with impunity. Despite their insistence on “love”, a lot of these kinds of people would love to resurrect their own version of Nazi Germany or the Inquisition if they had the chance, and you can’t let them take advantage of your tolerance and use it as a tool against you in order to make their bigoted fantasies a reality.

@miller

“Let me point out that the choice thing is somewhat of a red herring. Suppose that there existed some operation to make black people white. Wouldn’t it be abhorrent to discriminate against black people just because they could have chosen to make themselves white?

Formally, Dogan’s reasoning is:
1. Gay people chose to be that way.
2. If gay people chose to be that way, it would be okay to discriminate against them.”

That’s what I’ve been saying all these years! By their own logic, if there was an operation or pill or procedure that could turn black people white and they refused to turn white, then all the bigotry shown to those who refused would be morally acceptable, because, hell, it’s not like they don’t have a choice to placate the bigots by pretending to be white.

@fea24:

“I know a number of Blacks who honestly believe that Blacks are the only people ever to have been oppressed in the entire history of the world. Their main argument is always that the rest of us could always deny what we are but they can’t because of the color of their skin.

Yet, when anyone suggests that maybe giving up some of the “Black” behaviors would help them get better opportunities for jobs and education, they claim racism even though it’s what every group has always done to get ahead.”

^Just what I was talking about. If it’s okay to discriminate against someone for exhibiting characteristics that they have the option of hiding, then by logic it applies to black people just as well as gay people. Of course, in reality that is simply caving in to bigotry that requires you to at least pretend that who you are is something “wrong” that needs to be “fixed”, or at least hidden in shame as if it were a veneral disease, and anyone who is asked to concede like that has every reason to be offended and angry, no matter who that person is.

Personally, I think the “love/hate” qutestion is a bit backward. I think a lot of these people already have squeasmishness or disgust, of not outright hatred, of certain people or ways of life and seize upon prepackaged excuses to justify beliefs that they know perfectly well are not justifiable. If they allowed themselves to believe for a second that homosexuality is not a choice, for example, they would then have to deal with some very unpleasant realities about themselves, and that is not something people tend to do willingly. It’s always way easier and more comfortable to find excuses for what you already want to believe than to do any kind of soul-searching (for lack of a better term) and perhaps change your views.
Hitch

How does one spot bigoted hatred? Well if people repeatedly need to use two things, speak of “love” like it is a protective shield against criticism and constantly deny it’s “hate”.

Check this list:

“we are not speaking hate”
“And it’s not hate”
“Not to spew hate”
“I’ve never said to a gay person, “I hate you ’cause of what you do.””
“But I want you to know that I am not up here saying, “Hate.””

Well so denying 5 times that it’s “hate”. If it wasn’t hate one wouldn’t have to deny it once.

Anyone know what sentences that start with:

“No offense, but”… mean with respect to offense? Deny exactly what is going on.

Unfortunately this speech is exactly what is going on in religious zealots anti-gay justification.

“I love “gay people”, just that “gay acts” are sin, so stop acting so “gay” and embrace Jesus Christ, your lord and savior (and yes he can cure the “gay”)”

They have to insist that being gay is a choice to maintain the rhetoric, and that’s exactly what you are seeing. Because if it wasn’t… well it’s exactly the same as not having the choice of your complexion.

As it stands Ms. Dogan is among the worst of bigots and calls her ignorance and hatred love.
Buffy

She chose to be Christian. Her chosen religious lifestyle is fully protected under the Constitution. She could choose to convert to Judaism tomorrow, Hinduism the next day, Islam the day after, and she’d still be fully protected under federal and state laws.

I did not choose to be gay, regardless of what garbage her religious dogma has filled her head with. Sadly I don’t have a fraction of the protections she does. In most states my marriage would not be recognized, and in my own state it’s in legal jeopardy thanks to the bigots who want to take it away. In more than half the states I could be refused employment or fired just for being gay. I could be refused housing just for being gay.

Gay is not something I do. It is an inherent part of me. It’s not about what I do in bed any more than heterosexuality is about what people do in bed. I could no sooner “change” being gay than a person could change their skin color or their eye color. The best I could do is live a life of solitude, without love, without affection, and in which I lied to everyone around me.

I want you to know that I am not up here saying, “Hate.” I’m saying, “Love you.”

Bull. You don’t “love” somebody by denigrating who and what they are. You don’t “love” somebody by denying them the rights you have and take for granted. You don’t “love” someone by trying to lock them in a closet.
Richard Wade

Does she “choose” to be a bigot, or is she stuck that way? I wonder if there are faith-based “clinics” where she can pray the hate away. I guess not, since that’s the source of the hate to begin with.

What’s with that church flag on the right side of the screen? Seeing that displayed with equal stature to the Stars and Stripes is very creepy to me. Is she a dominionist?
Kelley

I consider it a step forward in South Carolina that the mayor actually HAD a LBGT day. I dunno if you’ve seen Jon Stewart (you know, at ALL) when he focuses on South Carolina, but considering some of the stupid shit that goes on, this is pretty minor.

So, kudos to Mayor Junie! Sorry your Councilwoman is a bitch.

(I’m in SC. Columbia, specifically)
Kathryn

As a current resident of Spartanburg who has lived here 30 of my 36 years, I have to say that I am just thrilled for the proclamation and also for the size of the crowd that marched in the LBGT parade yesterday! Yes, this women is obviously full of hate and ignorance. She also sounds alot like a whole lot of people here…But I am just so thrilled that we have the proclamation and the march and I am just trying to stay focused on that positive…she doesnt surprise me…the positive things in this story DO pleasently surprise me! I am actually starting to feel like my husband, children and myself are not the only liberal atheists here!!
Fritzy

Kurt Vonnegut said it best: “Please, a little less love and a little more common decency.”

The councilwoman does not “hate” gays or anyone else, because it is not politically expedient to do so. But loving them so much that you pray they would just go away, now that’s as American as apple pie.

And actually, no, I don’t think she really does hate anyone. I just think she has a very skewed and destructive understanding of “love”–one that has been perverted by religious indoctrination.
Neon Genesis

“as a further note, I do realize that the pro-prop 8 side made the Nazi comparison first, but two wrongs don’t make the Wright brothers fly … or something like that. ”

They do when multiplying.
Dan W

Wow, what a bigot. Oh, and she pulls the race card, trying to use the fact that she’s black to claim she’s not the bigot that she is! She needs to learn some science. You don’t choose to be gay anymore than you choose your skin color. She doesn’t hate, no her message is one of love. In the same way that slavery is really freedom. Feel the Christian “love” with this woman indeed.
AxeGrrl

Buffy wrote:

You don’t “love” somebody by denigrating who and what they are.

If any one sentence perfectly summarizes the fundamental wrongness of Dogan’s speech, that is it.

Kudos Buffy.
Kevin

@Buffy:

Bull. You don’t “love” somebody by denigrating who and what they are. You don’t “love” somebody by denying them the rights you have and take for granted. You don’t “love” someone by trying to lock them in a closet.

QFMFT! Thank you so much!
Enrys

She’s saying, “All Gays and Lesbians don’t like blacks and how they live, so I hate them and how they live, but I love them at the same time!”
Silent Service

I love this line;

And at 56 years old, when God had better send me somebody, it’s gonna be a man. A man.

It always amazes me how Christians order God to do what they want. Hey Linda, if God sends you a woman you’d better be appreciative of God’s gift to you; especially as ugly and as spiteful as you are on the inside.
Justin

Don’t have time to read all the comments, so I don’t know if someone’s said it already, but the quote:

“I’m very excited, and I think it’s a sign that Spartanburg is willing to recognize everyone who lives in the city and outside the city and it recognizes civil rights and how we should respect and accept an individual’s choices,” said Councilwoman Cate Ryba, who attended last year’s march.

shows me that Ms. Ryba doesn’t exactly respect LGBT as much as she thinks she does. “[R]espect and accept an individual’s choices,” emphasis mine.
sadu

linda dogan , is a disgrace to the human race, and i have to say, very shallow and ignorant as well. her rambling and unprepared “speech” was about as pathetic as her proclamation of “love”. her examples of her discrimination back in the 60’s ought to be enough for her to realize how stupid her comments were. and when god had better send her a man, let me know, ok? in all honesty, she looks like a big fat black man with a wig and lipstick on. there are just as many people out here in the world that discriminate against ugly fat people, so i hope her expectations aren’t to high for that man that god had better send her. using her skin color as some sort of comparison to rights of other human beings is appalling. i can bet you one thing though, this will be her last time on spartanbug’s city council, this will be her “waterloo”. and by the way, god also wants people to live within their means, and running up credit card bills and being overindulgent, then declaring bankruptcy is a sin and a lifestyle that i oppose, greed is a sin!
she says she is an educated woman, thats a joke, and if she hasn’t gotten a man with all her love and education by now, she can forget it. there are people, many of whom she works with or have worked with and probabaly have dated or tried to date that are gay and probably many of her family memebers as well, and she has the nerve to stand in front of city hall to spew her “love” in such an unprofessional way. linda dogan is a disgrace to the human race and should be really ashamed. hey linda, take a minute and watch and listen to your own so called speech and hang your head in shame, you “educated black woman”!
JustSayin’

Don’t y’all know? Black folks are the only people who’ve ever been oppressed! Jews, step aside. Native Americans–pshaw! There were internment camps for Japanese Americans? Whatever.

So why would anyone expect a woman like this to have any empathy for some fags and dykes?

Don’t worry though, it’s all good because her Jeebus tells her it is. Her Christian love will transform us all.

Fuck her bigoted ass.
CatBallou

The hypocrisy of this woman’s announcing that she’s not “coming to [us] as a city councilperson” and then claiming to be insulted as a council member is just boggling. I think most of us agree that she’s blind to her own errors of logic and ignorance of history.
I also agree with the commenters who have noted that “choice” is a red herring. It doesn’t matter if you flipped a coin yesterday to decide your orientation (I’ll leave it to the rest of you to make the “heads/tails” designation). Actually, that might be a fun and illustrative exercise! Today I’m gay, tomorrow I might be straight. At least in public.
But I do have to take exception to the argument that it couldn’t be a choice because “no one would choose to be reviled/tortured/hated.” In fact, people routinely choose to engage in behaviors that have just those results. The list of activities that can lead to ostracism, hostility, and imprisonment, and which people nevertheless engage in, is almost limitless.
I’m not suggesting that orientation is a choice; I’m just saying that this isn’t a convincing argument.
James Chao

Coming from a gay man. At least as a black woman you had the other black folk to stand by you and sympathetic whites. As a gay man in my youth in a small backwards town when it was revealed I was gay was to lose sympathy and love from family, friends, the religious family brought up in, religious school, job. Race meant nothing. I was truly alone.

In a sense I gave up my entire family and circle of people I loved and trusted and had to start over and find new friends that I came to know as family. I remember sitting on the corner of a street several months later in a strange town wondering what my family was doing.

My family came around eventually but, not after missed years of each other’s lives. That is hard and filling in with each other with details never made up for not being able to experience life with them to some degree.
cathy

There are unique pains to being black in our racist society and their are unique pains to being queer in our homophobic society. It’s also true that not all queer folks can pass and some black folks can. There are pains to being able to wearing one’s identity in the open and their are pains to being hidden. Adrien Piper’s great article called ‘Passing for Black, Passing for White’ does a great job discussing the pain involved in being a black person from a longstanding black family who passes as white (available here:http://www.adrianpiper.com/docs/Passing.pdf ) Being able to pass carries pains of its own, both for passing queer people and for lightskinned people of color, as does not being able to pass for those who can’t.

Also, it was not the Mayor who made the comparison with the black civil rights movement, it was Dogan. There are differences between gay rights and black rights, but they are both civil rights and both involve a long history of oppression and pain.

I’ll end with a Julian Bond quote ““It isn’t special to be free from discrimination. It is an ordinary, universal entitlement of citizenship…My rights are not diluted when my neighbor enjoys protection from the law.” I have yet to see anyone give any damned shred of evidence that giving queer people rights steals them from black people. What, do we have only so much civil rights pie and if one group gets it the other looses?
JustSayin’

What, do we have only so much civil rights pie and if one group gets it the other looses?

Interesting point. That would seem to be at the heart of the matter, wouldn’t it? As if civil liberties were drawn from a finite source, one that could never be replenished. I’m just tired of the “my-oppression-trumps-your-oppression” crap.
muggle

“God” save me from her definition of love.

Revyloution, love the acronym your way. It should totally be done.
muggle

“God had better send me somebody”

I just noticed that. Is she threatening God? Very interesting. I too found that it’s gonna be a man bit weird. Is she maybe one of those that’s “cured” of the gay by some nutjob church? Any way of finding out?
muggle

Oh, I’m sorry but one last thought: who gives a flying fuck if they can choose or not. It’s not hurting anyone so let them choose. I don’t think it’s a choice but I wouldn’t give a crap if it was.