Philly Rally Against the Boy Scouts

I find this funny because I was in the BS when I was younger and I’m a gaytheist. Goes to show that you can’t keep us out even if you try.

I’m glad that this local group permits gays to be members despite the national BSA’s bigoted rules.

BUT even if this local group were to also permit atheists as well, I think they still should be charged the rent or forced to vacate the facilities because they are still a part of the discriminating organization. They have not repudiated the bigoted policy, they’re just ignoring it. It’s still in their written by-laws. If their local leader leaves, the new leader could begin to enforce the policy.

Let them fully and publicly secede from the BSA and call themselves the Free Scouts of Philadelphia or something. Then because they’re benefiting the community without discrimination, perhaps they should be afforded some kind of help, like lower rent for the facilities.

Ironically, back when my kids were in Cub Scouts, they held a church service at a summer camp one morning and I was the only one who knew any of the songs, so I, the atheist, led the singing. Ironically, also, when it rained, I, the single female parent, was the only one who had waterproofed her tent, and thus our sleeping bags were dry. When you look at it from the inside (I was an assistant leader), you find even less to like about the Boy Scouts of America.

Mike, what was your Eagle Scout Project?

Another atheist and Eagle Scout checking in, and I have to say I agree with the other former scouts here. I personally had a wonderful and life changing experience in the Boy Scouts, and I think it’s horrible that some people are denied that due to their beliefs or sexual orientation (or sex, for that matter; don’t forget that the Boy Scouts discriminates against girls too). Many of the international scouting groups are all-inclusive; hopefully one day the BSA will follow.

Hmmm. I’m not a fan of the boy scouts but I read a few of the links and in one it says there are other “exclusive” organizations that use city space rent free. If that’s true, the city will have some explaining to do.

Depends on the type of ‘exclusiveness’. For instance veterans organizations, youth only organizations, and senior citizen organizations are all exclusive yet legal for government support.

I’m a girl and an atheist, but my family has always been involved with boy scouts. My brother and boyfriend are both eagle scouts, and my dad is a leader of the local troop. I also got involved with “Venture Crew” which is run by the BSA and allows girls (as do the sea scouts I believe, who are also run by the BSA). Our local scouting is not very religious at all, in fact, I never knew about the BSA’s discriminatory practices until after my boyfriend had his Eagle.

So I support the Boy Scouts’ mission, because they and give boys (and occasionally girls like me) the opportunity to do a lot of great things for themselves and their communities. Kids need every opportunity to get outdoors these days, and an organization that does that is awesome. However, I also disapprove of the discrimination, and think the BSA should lose government funding until they fix it.

I also happen to live in Philly (just moved here!) and work a few blocks from the rally. Maybe I’ll stop by on my lunch break!

I, too am a former scout. While I agree that the Boy Scouts of America often do affect positive change in their communities, their discriminatory practices and policies remain.

Saying “my troup didn’t discriminate against me” does nothing to excuse the fact that many troups do.

Even if every troup in America ceased to practice irrational discrimination, the policy remains in the bylaws…literally in black and white.

If the BSA wishes to continue such policies they have every right to do so, in my opinion. They do NOT, however, have a right to do so with my support or the support of the Federal government through tax breaks, grants, etc.

My boy belongs to the cub scouts (just got his Bear Insignia).

It was my impression that parents had to sign a statement affirming the BSA’s Declaration of Religious Principles in order for their children to be admitted.

Sure looks like it’s a requirement:

The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God and, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. Its policy is that the home and the organization or group with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life. Only persons willing to subscribe to this Declaration of Religious Principle and to the Bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America shall be entitled to certificates of membership.

Cub Scout Application

In effect, parents are signing for their minor children and are pledging their support of the Declaration of Religious Principles, including the expectation that “the home … shall give definite attention to religious life.”

How do atheist parents get around that? I mean, I suppose you could just lie on your application since the requirement is so reprehensible, but (for me) it wouldn’t feel right. My advice to atheist parents with their children in Scouts: Be careful! The Boy Scouts can and do kick out people for not toeing the party line.

Anna, I asked a local pack leader about the religious requirement before my son joined. He stated that the parent determines if the child met the requirement, the family defines the meaning of the requirement, and no outside adult is involved.

Since the local Unitarian Universalists count as meeting the requirement, I defined it as essentially secular humanism. So with my son I discussed values, doing things to help other people, and not being mean.

Also, flatlander100 is correct that this is largely a problem of wing-nuts in the national office.

For those defending the Boy Scouts, I find your arguments very similar to those of Catholics. Most Catholics I know are much more progressive than the church, but I still cannot understand how they can continue to call themselves Catholic even if their particular church disagrees with the teachings of Rome. For those of you still supporting the Boy Scouts, how is this different?

We did Campfire for my son (it is a co-ed organization now which focuses on whole families) as part of a virtual council last year because I was not willing to sign a declaration of faith document to be involved in the Boy Scouts and I don’t agree with their discriminatory practices despite very positive memories of my brothers and parents being actively involved when I was a child.

My daughter did Girl Scouts, which also has no discriminatory policies and provided wonderful opportunities.

I prefer Campfire because as part of the virtual council (they don’t have a council near us) I was almost completely autonomous. We had a few other families also join independently (it’s the Fire Tender program) and were able to run our own Cluster (troop). No silly reporting and training and very few bureaucratic hoops. And had we chosen to sell the candy, we wouldn’t have had to share our profits with a council.

There are also some other alternates out there: Spiral Scouts, Earth Scouts, Roots and Shoots, maybe a few more.

If all of the people who disagreed with the Boy Scouts’ discriminatory policies stopped supporting them, I think they’d either be forced to change or they’d cease to exist. I know they’re already hurting financially and it really is beyond time that people used their power to change them.

@evilspud – I still don’t see any difference between Boy Scout apologists and Catholic apologists.

In a lot of Catholic churches with progressive congregations, the priests don’t preach negatively about birth control, homosexuality, etc. Many quietly contradict Rome. Even in the 70s, my mom’s priest counseled her to use birth control as another pregnancy would have put her life at great jeopardy.

Many priests and lay people are “trustworthy, hardworking, mentor-worthy individuals” and have the same goal of imparting life lessons.

The BSA, on a national level, do actively “preach” their message of discrimination or nobody would even know about it. They are extremely vocal in the press and in pursuing legal action.

I understand how people become conflicted. Especially when they never encounter anyone enforcing these policies on a personal level. If Boy Scouts were to drop their policies on homosexuals and religion, I’d sign my son up in a heartbeat. Those were good times for our family. If the Catholic church reformed, I might possibly accompany my mom to a mass every now and then to please her as long as she could accept I was there to be with her and not because I believed in it. As it stands, I cannot compromise myself to do either.

I guess I’m just not satisfied with slow action when it comes to moral reform. As I believe discrimination is wrong, any organization I support must not currently engage in it. I chafe at “don’t ask, don’t tell” policies because if we know it’s wrong to ask, if we’re willing to look the other way, then we should just be forthright and abolish those policies.

In these cases, I’m willing to throw the baby out with the bath water. If Catholics refused to send money to Rome unless they changed their policies, Rome would change. Or unsatisfied Catholics could just keep the parts they want and reorganize and start calling themselves something else. People who don’t support the Boy Scouts policies could do the same. It’d be a shame to lose the historical ties, but it wouldn’t be that difficult for individual troops and councils to band together and run exactly the same program without the discriminatory policies.

@Beijingrrl

I think the comparison to the Catholic church is unfair. At least compare it to the baptists. The BSA does not seem to have institutionalized pedophilia, and it is much more loosely controlled that the Catholic church.

And the BSA is clearly not a religion, even if it is currently run by religious bigots. If it the discriminatory policies were changed, it would be a great organization, whereas the Catholic church would have to deny its central dogma to become an organization worth keeping.

In any case, a good many of us who feel conflicted, manage to find some resolution in campagining to get the BSA to change. And folks have rightly pointed out, this includes female membership as well. It seemed to work just fine in the UK.

Local BSA chapters can be great. We had several gay kids, it possibly could be considered one of the few social outfits where adults would stop bullying (school sure as hell didn’t). And it is christian, not particularly any one denomination, but apart from sunday morning worship it never comes up. If only the heads of the BSA would change, I’m sure they could change “reverent” to something else.

That doesn’t mean they should get government money they way they are now.

I’m glad I have a girl.

I’m a former scout, I enjoyed scouting a lot.

But I’m glad I don’t have to explain to my child that she can’t belong because of what the BSA has become.

They disgust me. It’s reprehensible.

My daughter has gay grandparents. It would break my heart to have to explain to her at this age what a terrible organization they are.

And for everyone still involved in BSA, who make excuses… it’s been enough time already. You’ve had time to change your organization, and you haven’t. It’s way past Time to stand up, now you’re just the silent enablers of bigotry. Which means you didn’t really mind the bigotry at all. When the cup came to you, you let it pass to someone else.

I would never, EVER, belong to a private club that excluded gays for any reason. It’s shameful.

Hell, it’d be shameful if this was the year 1980. That it’s 2010 makes it fucking unbelievable and morally indefensible.

Great lesson you’re teaching your children. YOUR children, the children who don’t pay the price of the bigotry.

Of course, Powell did not believe you could be an able-bodied citizen and not believe in God. However, I do not think it unreasonable that, had he met and talked with atheist Eagle scouts today, he would adjust his stance.

Just came back from the rally. I have some video, which I’ll post when I can. But here is my quick little rundown.

I held a sign reading “Hi, I’m your friendly neighborhood atheist.” It was interesting to see the range of responses. The negative ones were disappointing to me though.

One guy shaking his head said “It’s all about Jesus” to which I responded, “Only in parts of the world. You wouldn’t think that if you grew up in Iraq.”

To which he replied “I feel sorry for you, you’re going to hell.” To which I then replied “How do you know hell exists? Did you die and come back to life? Do you know anyone who came back from the dead to tell you about it?”

To which he then just repeated “It’s all about Jesus.”

I mean c’mon! That’s IT?! I barely got started, he could have countered what I said a bit better!

Another guy passed and just said “No.” So I asked him, “What does ‘no’ mean?”

He just kept walking, and shook his head in disappointment, wagging his finger and said “Bad!”

Lame! I wan’t more!

But I had a girl pass who said she was her neighborhoods friendly agnostic! Aww, yay! And another woman came buy who was a Unitarian, and married Lesbian who supported us. Her wife happened to be an atheist! Woo! And we had a handful of non-vocal supporters who just kinda smiled and gave a thumbs up to us. Thank you, friends!

A group of school kids came by. In the back of the group was a tubby white kid – who was shouting at us as he passed, “Where’s my sign?! Where’s my sign?!” And I was literally going to yell “Sorry, we don’t have a sign that reads ‘Small Dick. Small Mind’!” But I kept quiet, tried to be professional about it!

That’s it so far 🙂

@jemand, thank you. That’s what I always think too. This is a group that explicitly excludes girls (and trans boys). I wasn’t kicked out of scouts for being a queer atheist, I was not eligible to join by virtue of by genitals. Sexism, homophobia, and christian nuttery, what a nice trifecta.

But I have to confess, I’m a little leery about using a child to “make a statement.” If there was a good troop locally, run by good people, who knew what to ignore and how to ignore it, and I had a kid who wanted to be part of it, I’m not sure I’d insist he make my statement by not taking part.

The BSA does exclude child atheists as well as adult atheists, so unless your children are willing to promise to “love God,” it’s going to be a problem from Tiger Cubs all the way to Eagle Scout. If my son is an atheist (and, at five years old, he would be if I hadn’t introduced him to religion), then he wouldn’t be allowed to join. Check out the case of Remington Powell in Oregon, who was refused admittance in elementary school.

But even if our own children were not targeted, don’t you think it’s appropriate for parents to take a stand and say that the family doesn’t agree with discrimination? I realize it’s hard to break ties with an organization you love, but why are so many people willing to look the other way? This is no different from any other kind of bigotry. Would you let your children attend an summer camp that didn’t allow non-whites? Even if all your child’s friends were going, isn’t it more important to take a stand against such a hideous policy?

For me, it’s not just my statement. I will not be raising my children to tolerate bigotry, and I don’t want them learning that it’s okay to lie about their beliefs in order to be accepted. So while they may be disappointed at not being allowed to join a group all their friends are joining, I would hope that (even at the tender age of five) they would agree that discrimination is wrong. And if “our kind” isn’t officially welcome, we’re not going to join. Even if the people who run the local troop are really nice. Even if they have a great program otherwise. Because it’s not right to support an organization that promotes intolerance.

Scouter, private clubs have a legal right to discriminate. That doesn’t make it any less reprehensible.

If they want to make a stand, they can do it as a private group, but those of us who are excluded by the policies have every right to stand up against such bigotry and speak out about it. It’s not right to exclude children because of what they believe about deities, or because of what their parents believe, or to promote the falsehood that only theists can be “the best kind of citizens.” That’s flat out wrong, and it should be condemned.

As I said, the BSA can do its thing, but if they truly want to be a discriminatory private group, they should not receive government support or be allowed to recruit children in public schools as long as they discriminate on the basis of religion and sexual orientation.