Who’s to Blame for Iran’s Earthquake? Women

I looked but I couldn’t find the mechanism whereby Iranian women were causing earthquakes. Is it perhaps that the ground in Iran is made of women or something?

I felt the Earth move several times.

@gski:

I wouldn’t say this is anything that is the fault of weak men. Just the fault of the Earth.

Excellent! I’ve been looking for something horrendous to blame on my ex.

@David, this “When one’s beliefs are this badly oriented against reality, we usually call them “schizophrenic” (or some similar label) and lock them up or medicate them for their own good” is an absolutely repulsive statement. Coercively medicating and imprisoning other people for ‘their own good’ is a human rights violation. People with mental illness are human beings who deserve to be treated with respect for their own bodily autonomy as much as anyone else. Blaming all of the world’s problems on us ‘crazy people’ is no better than blaming earthquakes on women’s clothing choices.

From a religious perspective, this actually makes perfect sense.

From a rational one, it’s batshit crazy.

[Same with Robertson’s comments on Haiti, a sentiment shared by Dawkins.]

Well he’s just wrong. Everybody knows it’s teh Gays that cause the earthquakes.

This makes perfect sense. Those un-modestly dressed women are rocking their world!
/rim-shot

Somewhere some woman bared a chin and the men of the land were so excited by the square inch of skin exposed that the stampede caused an earthquake.

I can’t believe I got that out with a straight face.

Cathy, you’re over-reacting, hon. There’s a difference between mental illness and batshit crazy and the fact of the matter, much as it’s not PC to admit this, is sometimes you do have to forcibly medicate people and sometimes even lock them up for their own good. Make a suicide attempt and watch how fast it happens. I have a daughter with depression and, trust me, she knows just how fast.

Here in NY we have something called Kendra’s law (that I will invoke super-freaking fast should she ever refuse to take her medication) that even a roommate can use to have a judge order someone mentally ill to take their medications and they do enforce it. They will send someone to the house to watch them take it and if they don’t, they will arrest said mentally ill person.

There is a reason for this. Google it. It’s named after a woman who was killed because a mentally ill person was off his meds. She was an innocent bystander. It may not have been his fault but, frankly, her rights trumped his.

Think he misunderstood when he overheard the phrase “did the earth move for you?”

@David/Cathy/Muggle:

Yes, the mentally ill are people too – but the fact is that some are very dangerous because of a severely distorted sense of reality. They’re not medicated only for their own good, but also for the good of everyone who might be hurt, even killed, by them.

Also, and I don’t mean to speak for him, I doubt David was intending to say that all of the worlds problems are caused by the mentally ill, only that what people like Sedighi and Pat Robertson say is blatantly delusional, and that the whole world would be better off if it were not for their ravings.

Also, I might point out that it’s people like the aforementioned who said mental illness was things like demonic possession, and used burning at the stake or a drill to the forehead as a means to treat it instead of means empirically validated as effective, like medication and counseling.

—

All of that said, I got a good laugh out of the plethora of jokes.. it replaced that bit of my mind which was damaged by Sedighi.

Also, Rush Limbaugh blamed the recent volcano in Iceland on God, saying it was to punish America for the recently passed healthcare bill: http://thinkprogress.org/2010/04/17/limbaugh-volcano/
Yes. Americans do evil, unchristiany things, like trying to take care of peoples’ health, and God punishes us by making a volcano erupt in Iceland. Brilliant.

@Gibbon: what are you basing your statement on? I followed the link, and to me it seems plain Sedighi’s comment makes a direct causal connection between women’s dress habits and earthquakes.
Granted, I can’t say how reliable the translation is, and maybe you have more insight there. Or some other information that leads you to mitigate the apparent connection.
Please share.

Hey! Let’s not forget America’s biggest windbag/godbag/pillhead Rush Limbaugh!

@medussa, if you believe that you can lock some one up and forcibly medicate them based on what you think is best for them, you do not think they have the right to self determination and bodily autonomy. People who commit voilent crimes against OTHERS may be locked up, but they may not be coerced to take personality altering medication in jail or as a condition of parole. It is considered cruel and unusual punishment when done to ‘sane’ people, but you’re okay with it being done to us crazies, because you don’t think we deserve full human rights.

@muggle, I am aware of where the law stands, I just think it is a dehumanizing law which denies essential liberties to people with mental illness. People with mental illness DO NOT commit violent crimes at higher rates than people without mental illness and you willingness to force medical alteration of another human being based on your prejudice is repulsive. This is exactly why my response was not an overreaction, because shit like this, people being locked up against their will and forcibly medicated happens every fucking day and advocating for it means advocating against the rights of a group of people. I fucking hope your daughter moves far away from your abusive ass. Yes, it is abuse to deny threaten your children with imprisionment if they refuse the medical care you want them to have.

Hmmm…Imagine that; a religiously delusional fuck-wit that’s scared shitless of female sexuality and doubly scared of his own. How original.

It seems in cases such as this, the less actual evidence you have for such a bizarre and extravagent claim, the quicker the masses are to accept it unquestionably. Even more so when it concerns female skin.

@Gibbon–it would appear you have read a different quote than the rest of us–it seems pretty clear from reading this that he is making a causal link between female flesh and seismic activity. Even if all he is saying, as you assert, is that “the “immodesty” of women is disruptive to society,” his claims are made with little basis in reality and a heavy dose of misogyny.

medussa

@Gibbon: what are you basing your statement on? I followed the link, and to me it seems plain Sedighi’s comment makes a direct causal connection between women’s dress habits and earthquakes.

As both of us are aware, even if the women covered up the earthquake would not be less likely to occur. If the modesty of women was covered, then when the earthquake struck the cleric would “shift the blame” to another issue of moral concern. The man is not trying to intrude on or replace science; instead he is anthropomorphising a natural phenomenon to shock people into accepting his moral edicts.

What one needs to understand is that naturally religion is not a scientific endeavour; it is not intended to explain the natural world. Religious scripture and statements from religious authorities are primarily social commentary or moral prescriptions; there is no intent for empirical explanations.

And if you want to know what I’m basing my claims on, how about the fact that in any given religious text only a tiny fraction is devoted to providing what may be regarded as a scientific explanation for natural phenomena. If the Bible is intended as a scientific treatise then why is only a couple of pages worth of passages, out of hundreds of pages, making any such claims while the vast majority of it is commenting on social events and making statements on morality?

Expect an earthquake on April 26, 2010.
Jen of Blag Hag organizes Boobquake

I’m not sure how a discussion of delusional thinking regarding earthquakes turned into an acrimonious debate about the human rights of the mentally ill, but I’ll chime in with some personal experience. My uncle has been dealing with his schizophrenia for decades – an endless round of different doctors, different diagnoses, and different drugs. When they get the medication “right” he’s the nicest guy around with a passion for fishing and socializing. Off his meds he is paranoid and violent – not entirely safe to be around.
My wife faces a similar situation as she has suffered from bi-polar disorder since her teens but was only properly diagnosed in her thirties. A few pills a day and she’s a hard worker, a great mom, and a true companion. If she misses a few doses I don’t even recognize her as she shifts between deep depression and rage.
It’s true that I have no idea what it is like to have a mental illness but I’m intimately familiar with the challenges faced when you love someone who has one.
I think I have a right and a responsibility to encourage them to get the best treatment available. In the case of my uncle, it’s a matter of both his own safety and that of the people around him. We may not like it, but some things really are for our own good.

Hazor wrote:

@David/Cathy/Muggle:

Yes, the mentally ill are people too – but the fact is that some are very dangerous because of a severely distorted sense of reality. They’re not medicated only for their own good, but also for the good of everyone who might be hurt, even killed, by them.

Also, and I don’t mean to speak for him, I doubt David was intending to say that all of the worlds problems are caused by the mentally ill, only that what people like Sedighi and Pat Robertson say is blatantly delusional, and that the whole world would be better off if it were not for their ravings.

Thanks, Hazor. Yes, I certainly wasn’t implying that “all the world’s problems” are caused by crazy people — religious or otherwise. Thanks for discerning that.

@ Cathy:

Although I think that you may have taken my original comment a bit more personally than was warranted, I do appreciate your response. I see now that my comment was insensitively phrased with regard to those who struggle with mental illness; I spoke recklessly, and I apologize for that.

(I also apologize to Hemant for inadvertently hijacking the thread toward a subject I never intended to expound upon!)

For the record, I do not advocate forcibly medicating everyone who falls outside a narrow, arbitrarily defined definition of mentally “normal.” However, I do support the voluntary use of medication therapy to help those who need it (including myself, for depression).

I agree that forcibly incarcerating or medicating anyone for a medical condition should be a last resort; however, in my honest opinion, it still should be done if necessary, with due process, in cases in which someone shows a tendency toward harmful behavior as a result of his/her illness.

I don’t expect anyone in that situation to enjoy having that happen to him/her, and I can appreciate your stand on personal body rights. (For what it’s worth, I am a staunch pro-choice advocate myself for much the same reasons.) However, the rights and safety of other individuals in society must be protected as well. It is doubtless a difficult balancing act, and there probably is no way to work it out that satisfies everyone.

~David D.G.

Cathy, my willingness to invoke Kendra’s law should it be necessary is because of experience with my daughter’s dreadful disease. It would be to protect her and my grandson. What would be abusive would be to turn away from her when she is direly ill and needs me. Fortunately, she realizes the importance of taking her medication and would herself be angry at you for making such baseless accusations against me. She knows only too well that she still has her son because of me and that she and him are doing as well as they are because of my caring for them both just that deeply.

Hazor, does have it right. You do have to go in front of a judge and show cause. There are conditions that have to be met. If my daughter did not have a history of hurting herself or someone else, I wouldn’t stand a chance in hell of invoking Kendra’s law. If she ever goes off her medication, that’s between her and her therapist but for him to agree to that, she’d have to display her ability to cope without. She hurt herself and she endangered my grandson. What the hell kind of parent and grandparent would I be if I were to disregard that? On her meds, my daughter has it together; off them, she just can’t cope. She is learning coping skills and this may or may not change. Obviously, her meds would have to be lowered cautiously before being ended and talk therapy is a must alternative. If she doesn’t cope, her meds have to be upped again.

Also, go to family support perhaps with a family member that is already involved. Try to see what they’re dealing with. My daughter was nothing next to most of their loved ones. I’ve watched people weep over the things their mentally ill loved ones have done. I have watched them torn between child and grandchild as I have been and spouses torn between spouse and children. I have seen them having to protect adult children from those that exist in this world who are cruel enough to exploit and endanger the mentally ill for their own purposes. I have seen adult siblings try to cope with their sibling’s mental illness and help them. I have seen them all sacrifice much of themselves financially, emotionally and, yes, socially for mentally ill people they cared deeply about.

To call them prejudiced and abusive is, frankly, an utterly callous thing to say. It is only family who love their ill relative deeply who intervene rather than turning away and allowing that person to be lost to the fates. Standing by a family member struggling with a mental illness takes strength and only love will give you that strength. No one calls the crisis unit on you if you are not out of control and/or delusional unless you have a previous history of being so and they are fearful of history repeating itself. Even then, they do not do so without some behavior on your part causing them to fear for your safety or the safety of those around you.

I love my daughter and I am proud of her for having come so far. I am proud of her for taking bad and learning from it to make good of her life and turn it around, to do what she has to do to make her life work.

Anon, all I can say is that I hope you have someone who loves you looking out for you. In any case, seek out some support, if you haven’t already. And you’re not a coward! Not if you’re brave enough to voice your opinion even on the internet.

@ Beth: Sometimes a personal affront is important to remind a person that they aren’t thinking clearly.
If there were a method to medicate a murderer or rapist into being a productive member of society, would cathy and beth be so affronted? Probably not. You are worshipping a false paradigm if you think that trying to help people learn to be or be better is a bad thing. The simple fact is that many -NOT ALL- mentally ill people could and would be personally and societally better if they are on their meds. Thousands of murders and millions of dollars in property damage would be spared if there were a better understanding and system in place to help the maladjusted or mentally ill take their meds. Complaining about forced medication for the extreme and at risk people only helps keep the body count high!

@fiddler “If there were a method to medicate a murderer or rapist into being a productive member of society, would cathy and beth be so affronted? Probably not” I have, in fact, been involved in discussions about protecting prisoners from unwanted medical experimentation (and how to balance that with ensuring they can consensually take part in medical trials when they wish to). It is in fact considered a violation of the Constitution to drug a prisoner or to perform castrations or other bodily alterations without consent. To treat a ‘sane’ prisoner the way you think mentally ill people should be treated is considered a serious crime and, under UN codes, is considered torture and a violation of the Geneva codes. The mentally ill, as a class, in the US have less rights than convicted violent criminals. When given a choice, many people will choose time in prison over time in a state run mental institution. As one young man I know put it “In prison, they may treat as a bad person, but they are still forced to treat you as a person.” If I had to choose between five years in an institution and five years in jail, I would pick the latter and would have more legal rights. No one who has actually been in a state institution paints the pretty picture of them that you people have, and no one who has ever dealt with the nonconsensually commited would ever believe that no one ever calls the police or tries to have someone locked up without violent behavior. I have a trans friend my age for whom her transition was enough for her to be labelled as out of control and in need of institutionalization for her schizophrenia. The mere fact of having a mental illness diagnosis makes you vulnerable to others abusing it as a means to control you, such as having you imprison for deciding not to utilize certain forms of medical intervention.

“Anon, all I can say is that I hope you have someone who loves you looking out for you. In any case, seek out some support, if you haven’t already” Except then, you have a diagnosis, making you one of us dangerous mentals, and you have a ‘history’ meaning that your relatives can use it to imprison you. It means you will almost certainly be prevented from getting health insurance. It means you it will be impossible or highly unlikely for you to adopt children or gain custody in a dispute. It means you will be less able to be employed. It often means choosing between access to social services and unwanted medical procedures. It means loosing the right to due process. It means being able to be imprisoned without ever having commited a crime. It is precisely the denial of human rights of the mentally ill that prevents people from being able to have full options and choices.

As for Anon’s course of action, that’s up for him to decide.

Depends on how he can cope on his own or not. Going to a therapist is pretty normal these days. Just that one action is not going to put all those labels on him.

Ignoring a problem, on the other hand, could spiral him into crisis and if that happens, he will wind up with those labels. Wish my daughter had gone to therapy before she had a crisis. If she had, the crisis might have been avoided and she would not have endangered both herself and my grandson and would not carry all those labels as she now does.

And it’s not like they can’t be overcome. It never goes completely away but she’s been controlling her illness long enough now to prove herself somewhat. If for instance, grandson’s daddy decided to sue for custody two years after the crisis, he’d have a harder time doing so.

I don’t know if she could adopt but she works with children who are autistic and one with Downes Syndrome now, providing respite. And she can become a pharmacist. She carefully checked that out before wasting her time on it.

There’s still way too much stigma and way too much abuse of the system (as in the case of your transgendered friend) but it is improving.

First off, thanks to muggle and cathy for the kind words. I am currently receiving treatment already – I have been for a few years now, after about 10-15 years of trying to keep going without any. I basically got to a point where continuing to struggle on was not an option, and since then have been receiving treatment. If this leads to discrimination, then there’s nothing I can do about it.

I must confess, however, that I have never admitted to anyone I’ve seen the extent of any feelings/thoughts relating to suicide because of fear of what might happen. Either I’m being unreasonably frightened about it, or something is wrong about the system.

Again, the thing that gets me is the ‘or harm towards oneself’ portion of the situation. (I have no problem with the action for the ‘harming other people’ part.) There may be some situations where it is reasonable (for example, with foregiven consent – implicit in taking drugs, if the harm is caused by their running out of the drugs), but that isn’t how it is implemented. For example, even during sessions with psychologists I have, in a small way, ‘self harmed’. Just simple things like pinching skin, and twisting, say.

The thing is, there is actually a perfectly rational reason for this, and it serves a useful purpose – the pain allows me to focus, and prevent myself from getting lost in memories or unwelcome emotions. Physical pain can be a distraction from worse mental pain – it’s like if you have a scab you aren’t meant to scratch, you should scratch somewhere else to take your mind off it. It can actually be a coping mechanism. Suicide can be merely the ultimate instance of this.

I know this is hard for people to get their heads around – I have had times when I didn’t feel the pain could get any worse, and it has, so I can understand that people find it hard to accept that someone can be compos mentis and want to end their life. I wonder if certain religions and their prohibitions against suicide are part of the problem, or if they are just a manifestation of what people think anyway. Maybe self harm is not the best possible coping method around, but you don’t solve matters by preventing people from using it – you solve matters by giving them a better one to replace it with.

Apologies for the rambling.

Even though I’m writing anonymously I think I’ll bow out of the conversation though – when you don’t want to be recognised, you worry about giving details about where you live, or people recognising your writing style etc. Or at least I do. 🙂 Plus it is a subject that hits close to home, and although you two are treating it maturely – if passionately – not everyone who has posted here has.

…

Oh I’ll say it. Fiddler, I don’t want this to appear mean spirited in any way, especially as I am anonymous, and said I’m probably going to drop out of the conversation, but you are not coming across very well at all. To be blunt, you are coming across as someone who is very aggressive, lacking in empathy, not trying/trying not to appreciate the position of the other person, and also without a very good grasp on the subject. I’d suggest you try to appear more thoughtful when putting forward your opinion, or perhaps, merely putting more thought into it.

Anon