Women Not Allowed to Speak During Lutheran Church Vote

A friend of mine sends his daughter to a school similar to this one, even though he’s not that religion. He just doesn’t like his public school choice.

No female at the school can be president of any club at the school, because the school feels that girls need to learn early on that men are always the leaders.

I’m waiting to hear other Christians denounce these people and their beliefs.

It’s a Biblical viewpoint.

1 Timothy 2:11-14

A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.

Any Christian who rejects this is arguing against the Bible. I can’t help but chuckle.

Oh, no, MikeTheInfidel! You just don’t understand, because you don’t have the Spirit to help you interpret. What the Timothy passage actually means is that women should be able to speak their minds and be fully equal with men. Why? Because Adam was as deceived as Eve was.

There. Now, if you need any more help with biblical exegesis, just lemme know.

In the church I grew up in, women did all the work–prepared communion, cleaned the church, taught most of the Sunday School classes–but reaped none of the rewards. Christianity’s continuing oppression of women is one of its greatest evils.

It is votes like this that perpetuate the conservative trend of many churches. This year, the vote was 76-74. Odds are, that by next year, perhaps two of the “74” will leave the church because they are discusted with the politics. Assume 2 new people males satisfy the church tenure requirement and get voting privileges. Assume one would vote with the “76” and one with the “74”.

The new balance of power will be 77-73. Even if one of the original “76” moderates and now votes more progressive, the balance of power will still be the original 76-74.

Extreme views within a church tend to keep the church extreme due to the exodus of the moderates.

What pigs. Misogyny is my main reason for leaving the church.

Uh, Neon, believe me, I know Paul wasn’t the author. But then, where did I say he was? Besides, I can’t believe you didn’t see my comment for the sarcasm it was. Did it really need a smiley?

As an aside the United Arab Emirates is extending women’s suffrage this year to make it more equal. Parts of the UAE operate under Sharia law. That means that the Lutheran church in Wisconsin is operating under less equal conditions than much of the UAE.

I know I’m not comparing like with like but still the phrase “Sexist pigs!” has never been more suitable.

By the way, has anyone read the comments posted at the end of the article? Oy vey. There’s a whole lot of stupid there in one small space.

@mikespeir,

Although I thought your comment was sarcasm, in general when it comes to religion it is hard to identify sarcasm since the subject matter is entirely subjective. It would be difficult to craft a religious statement, no matter how ridiculous, without there existing someone somewhere that actually believes it.

RE: the Timothy and other quotes: the thing is 99% of christians will say that’s a 2000 year old rule they no longer follow (at least not since sufferage). But they do not take it a step furher and realize they are picking and choosing which parts of the Bible they want to follow, nor think about the ramifications of the fact so much of even the New Testament doesn’t apply to modern ethics but rather makes them uncomfortable.

What does that mean? Nothing – they don’t want to think about it. To be fair it is not easy, it wasn’t easy for me to give up religion, but it is a point we must keep hammering on: “You don’t even follow or believe your holy book.”

(Also I think we really need to focus on the New Testament when we do this, most Christians think the Old Testament is basically crazy and have written it off, so pointing out God sanctioning mass murder there doesn’t really affect them.)

Stop me if you’ve heard this anecdote before: A few years ago I used to have discussions/debates online with a Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod minister. He was a missionary serving in Russia at the time. He seemed like a genuinely nice guy, (and in fact I’m sure he was).

At one point we got to discussing the foundations of morality. He trotted out the old line that God has inscribed the distinction between right and wrong in our hearts — though we need to “fine tune” our understanding by consulting the Bible. I pointed out to him that hundreds of thousands of American slaveholders had not had it inscribed in their hearts that slavery was wrong, and that they had been able to do a darned good job of “defending” the morality of slavery by scriptural prooftexting.

So I asked this fellow: “Is slavery a sin?” It was a question that he was reluctant to answer. When I pressed him, he finally responded by saying that, while he was personally glad that slavery in this country was gone, he could find nothing in the Bible to suggest that slavery was sinful. My response was that any theory of morality that did not point to the conclusion that it was wrong for one human being to hold another in bondage was a theory that was obviously in need of more work.

I think you must be making this up.

This couldn’t be true.

I’ll concede that, Jeff. It’s the very essence of Poe.

My aunt lives in Baraboo. Her kids (two boys who are now in their 20s) came to live in Minneapolis with us because they couldn’t take it anymore. From the two, brief, unpleasant trips I have taken to visit the town of Baraboo and my unbelievably right-wing-Christian-nutso family there, it appears to me that the whole town is a sinkhole of religious insanity. And not just one kind, ala your post- several if not many kinds of irrational, defective, detrimental thinking (and praying) take place in what is otherwise a backwater ditch outside of Madison, Wisconsin.

What ever happened to the parts of the bible they don’t take literally?

And to the people who have no sympathy for the women without voices, it’s not always that easy to just walk away. There are husbands, children, and friends all in the church. Walking away could mean being ostracized from much of the community that these women are part of. Yes, walking away is a choice they have, but I am willing to bet that many of these women do not consider it to be an appropriate course of action.

Although it is a good point to make that the women are “voluntarily” staying, it is important to remember that they are still not the ones most at fault. We can’t excuse this kind of sexism just because the women are not actively fighting it.

Personally, I have a lot of pity for men who are so afraid/hating of women that they must keep them even from voting on church matters. It must suck to fear losing all that undeserved power. *sarcasm*

In a nation like Saudi Arabia, this is vile behaviour. In a nation like the USA, its franly bizarre. These women have the ability to leave this situation. Churches are voluntary organisations. This church is clearly led by bigots. Leave.

Some of them are married with kids. If their husband thinks that they should shut up and follow his rules, then this is not a marriage worth saving. Leave. Take the kids with you.

I feel sorry for the women involved but until they up and leave, nothing will change. Asking bigots to be less bigoted doesn’t work. You have to force them. MLK forced white America to shut the hell up and listen to him, Emelie Pankhurst forced the British to shut and listen to her and the French rather effectively shut up their nobility and forced them to change. If these women continue to attend these churches, they lend them defacto authority to be bigots. They need to leave.

While I’m sure most people won’t hear about this story, surely many Lutheran churches will. And surely many churches in Wisconsin will. Let’s hear *those* pastors tell their congregations how ashamed they are that this group of people call themselves Christian. Let’s hear what they’re doing to make sure women have a voice in their church.

I agree that would be great, thanks for revising your statement.

@hoverfrog: Don’t you Americans have equality laws?

Well, yes we do. But religious organizations are exempt from almost all of them.

Of course, if they knew the church’s policies were anti-women for so long, I wonder why they would enroll their children in the church-affiliated religious school in the first place — or even be part of the church.

Because systems of oppression are designed so that it’s easier to go with the flow: the things you need to do to get by in daily life are the exact opposite of the things you need to do to improve your condition.

I thought the women’s suffrage movement was successful in the US in 1920. I guess that this news hasn’t reached the Lutherans yet.

Yeah, it affected state and federal elections. What a church does is thankfully not covered. Also not covered: CEOs of corporations are allowed to make decisions without consulting the janitors that work for the company. All private institutions get to decide their own leadership structure; some may be good and some may be bad, but the Voting Rights Act has nothing to do with it.

Don’t you Americans have equality laws? Perhaps Hartwig’s own daughter feels discriminated against due to her gender and might feel compelled to take this to court. Given the result John Hartwig can certainly demonstrate a financial loss as an indirect result of discriminatory practices.

First, it’s worth noting that all laws are just words on pieces of paper. The way rights really work is we assume that we have them and we see whether we were right when we see what actions we take when they try to take them away. In this case, Hartwig has no case. The church had a charter detailing the procedures for firing an employee and acting (I assume) in accordance with those procedures. All church members knew what those procedures were and still voluntarily attended the church. Ditto church employees. Absolutely no wrongdoing on the part of the church. Pigheadedness, yes.

Anyway, government intervention is totally useless (as well as being immoral in this situation, as in most). Looking at previous civil rights movements (I’m using the term generically–not just the CRM but all crm’s), the government was at best no where to be found and more typically sending police to beat up the demonstrators. We’d need to be in a sorry state indeed to want the government to protect our civil rights. Luckily, there’s an even better strategy that always works: it’s called direct action. Don’t try to change laws designed to protect the power of the elite; change your behavior so that those in power have no choice but to do what you want. And taking children out of the church school is the first step in a direct action campaign. I wish them well, and more importantly I wish them intellectual strength and solidarity, because if they stick with this tactic they will win, and if they somehow try to involve the government to assert their rights, they will lose and lose big.

I grew up WELS Lutheran, and it didn’t seem that there were any unusually (for a church) strong anti-women’s rights views expressed (as compared to the Presbyterian and Methodist churches). I must have been lucky to have attended a more forward thinking church.

To the people who have no sympathy with the women for staying in the church – have you never heard of peer pressure?

Why do you think bullying happens, not just in schools, but in workplaces, and other ‘adult’ environments?

Why do you think movements start to snowball, rather than everyone jumping on them at once? Why exactly does it take a large group of people to do something to make people also want to do it?

Humans are social animals. These women would risk losing their entire social community. They may even risk losing their families. They may have never been in a situation where they have been an outcast, and they are scared stiff of the possibility, or they may know all too well about it. There isn’t a magic age where you leave ‘childhood’ and enter ‘adulthood’ and suddenly you are capable of making tough decisions like these, and coping with all of the repercussions.

Maybe you guys are fine with all that – maybe some of you have even gone through the process. Maybe some of you simply haven’t got a clue what it would feel like to be in that position but just like to think you’d act one way or another.

Everyone’s different. Some people are better at music than others, some people are better at business, some people are better at standing up for themselves, some at making new friends, and socialising. Maybe these people you’re dismissing can do things you would shy away from, just in a different discipline.

Mini rant over. Sorry.

@Greg,
You make a valid point. This isn’t Saudi, but isolated pockets of our society may as well be. I can understand how some people may be so caught up in their church community that they honestly feel as if they have no alternatives. However, I can only excuse this idiocy insofar as it might effect an adult’s self-esteem or psychological well-being. Once the laws of the land are being violated, that’s a deal breaker for me and I say that the transgressors need to be held accountable.

Religion should not be able to trump the law of the land. It should not be one rule for the church and another for the rest of society. Surely separation of church and state does not exempt the church from living in accordance with the rules of the state.

We have a saying on this side of the pond: “Only in America.” Then we shake our heads and go back to our tea and crumpets.

hoverfrog, isn’t it in your country that some politicians have put forth the idea of allowing sharia law to supplant the law of the land for those that want it? And are you saying that the churches there can’t hire who they want? Could an atheist expect to be given equal consideration as a catholic for a religious position at a catholic church?

@hoverfrog Even in your country I suspect the Roman Catholic church makes it decisions via an all male hierarchy and with the top male making the most important decisions (not even a vote).

@blitzgal I suspect your mother goes to an ELCA (Evangelical Lutheran Church in America) which is the most liberal of the major Lutheran denominations. Last year they approved ordaining ministers who were in monogamous same-sex relationships. Women have been ministers since the 1970’s (ELCA didn’t exist back then, the churches that merged to form it did so no definite date).

Unlike Episcopalian or Catholic congregations, Lutheran congregations are self contained. The congregations with buildings/land can walk away from the denomination if they disagree with its policies (hence splits and mergers seem to be fairly common). This is also true with Baptists.

Erp, I dare say you are correct although it is really the Anglican Church of England that has its base in England. That doesn’t make them right either.

i find it absolutely ludicrous that anyone woman or man would allow there-selves to be treated as such, or allow someone else to treat them in this manner… and for those who say it is a religious belief its there choice… bullshit you will note how it is ALWAYS the women in these situations who are degraded and treated like they are useless, never the men… this isn’t gods word this is just another attempt by human men to keep women down and for that matter..I don’t care if it is gods word.. any god that thinks a woman is inferior to a man is NOT a god i want to worship… any god that condones violence to prove a point i will not honor, any god who calls us his children but tells us we will burn in a fiery pits of hell for not following his every word i wont worship… you can believe all you want but at some point you have to make a stand morally on what you will or will not do or put someone else through.. what is right and what is wrong and it is just plain wrong to treat another human being as less then ones self and it is morally wrong to commit acts of violence against another human being!

“The women who didn’t have a voice at the meeting said they hope they’re heard loud and clear next year when they move their children to public school.”

I really don’t understand why this move isn’t immediate. By postponing it they are only showing tolerance of the church’s behavior, as well as allowing their children to be taught more misogynistic messages.

muggle, a state church does seem to have made us less religious (or maybe all the religious loonies were deported hundreds of years ago ;)) but many times I wish for a separation from church and state. Like times when the aforementioned AoC Rowan Williams or the Archbishop of York, John Sentamu, get to have a say in our legislature because they are members of the House of Lords. The Lords Spiritual (all 26 of them) can swing a vote to reject a law that they don’t like. They haven’t been voted in and don’t represent anyone except their god. I hate that.

There are also things like compulsory religious education in our state schools. We are supposed to have daily worship in an assembly but most schools ignore it and no-one enforces it. There is nothing to prevent a faith school from being publicly funded and Tony Blair set up more than a few. We’ve even got creationist schools and no defence against them except for open mockery.

We also don’t have “freedom”. There is no guaranteed freedom of speech unless you are an MP in Parliament, no guaranteed freedom of the press and no protection if the law lords decide to make an oppressive law. Of course we all act as if we have these freedoms and nobody stops us but it still isn’t enshrined in a constitution.

I bet your grass is greener too.

Well, it doesn’t matter where we are in the world, it seems that religion has a stake in our lives. It is our job to repeat over and over that we’re not interested and would they very much mind getting out of the way.

Please click to my blog on this issue http://govfreak.wordpress.com/

I am a WELS woman who is working within to change this for all women. Believe me, this is not indicative of all WELS churches. Many allow women to participate, vote, serve on boards, run schools, counsel men, etc. The WELS is a young church body, only 150 years old and until the 1950’s many congregations were still operating in German. We have come a long way in 60 years. Much of what this story is about is the pastor’s viewpoint. As an example, when I attended a WELS high school, we were not allowed to have proms or dances, because the board of control (made up by pastors) felt it was sinful and led to fornication. Two years after I graduated, the policy was changed with new voices and eyes on the board. This to will change, it just changes slower in some places.

BTW – I’m not a barefoot, pregnant woman of the WELS. I am college educated, work as a reporter for a progressive e-zine in Milwaukee, have served as a city alderperson, president of a public library system and chair of the education committee in my WELS congregation. I have opinions and people in the WELS know it and don’t tell me to be quiet.

@Victor: They are near the end of the school year in the US. There’s less than 2 months left. It would be messy for the children to make a move now at this late stage – that’s probably why.

hoverfrog, thank you. You’re right. Except for the grass. Don’t know about England but I’ve seen pics of Ireland. Man, it ain’t called the Emerald Island for nothing.

Lately, though, as you know from this board and the news etc., the religious reich has been having way too much power and that line is blurring and has been for a couple of decades.

Now we just have to get us back to the Constitution. So outspoken moms like me can raise a stink whenever religion’s snuck into their child’s circulum.

I’m just in amazement by the lack of respect. Respect not only to others here, but first and foremost, God.

I suppose we should rewrite the Bible? Maybe make it a little more “politically correct”? Come on people…..Look in to your hearts as if God was standing right in front of you! Please…. Everyone is certainly entitled to his or her opinion, and their life as they see fit. But, if we are to call Christians, shouldn’t we follow what CHRIST has to say? Otherwise I guess we shouldn’t follow Christ. Maybe Joe our neighbor?? He’s a smart guy! Yet, we tend to IGNORE that fact we aren’t FOLLOWING God. Maybe some feel God won’t notice, or I know better than God. To each his/her own.

So really, as I see it — your arguments here are really arguments to God himself. WELS didn’t write the Bible. But they are one of the few organized religions that don’t bend to be “politically correct.” They don’t skip the “hard parts” just because. And thank God for that! We certianly don’t have to agree with God – Everyone has a choice. But in who’s interest is all of this in? Yours, or the one who sent his son to die for our sins? Maybe we should spend more time deciding who we are REALLY following. God, ourselves, or the world? Sounds to me as WELS has the right focus.

God’s blessing to all here. I pray he helps everyone find peace in His love. And respect for his Word. ALL OF IT.

@Hoverfrog: That’s correct. My respect goes to God. Your respect goes to yourself or perhaps others as well. I respect the fact that you actually respected my opinion just as I do yours.

We all have choices. If gaining the respect of others includes disprecting my God, then I cannot call my self a Christian. Humans, or most I should say spend a lot of time trying to please others by changing themselves to fit what they feel is demanded of them. In doing that, they loose respect for themselves along the way. Other choose to stand firm, but expect others or even God to change for THEIR needs. Those are the people that I feel the worst for. They seem to be stuck in the middle somewhere. Between God and the world.

But then as human nature takes it course, we begin to blame everyone around us for our problems that we (ourself) have really created. Because we are not truely at peace. And then never ending race begins searching and looking for it, or trying to change ourselves or others begins.

When if we would just listen to our conscience – trust in what we believe in to the FULLEST extent – we find peace. I’m speaking for all beliefs. Beliefs in God. Beliefs in no God as some choose. Just do what feels right in your heart/conscience and you begin to live in your belief and what choose as your god. I have chosen God, or I should say – he choose me and I choose to listen. Paul wrote in his letter to the Phillipians this:” And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.” It took me years to understand or “grasp” that. Until I just started to listen and live. It is an UNDESCRIBABLE peace that I have found.

I certainly wish others can find that same kind of peace in their choices. Again, no disrespect to those and their choices. But rather a request that we truely examine what we each do individually. And be true to it at the fullest extent.

One of the purposes of religion is to control people, their thoughts and behaviors. When a church cannot control a person’s behavior, the group often ostracizes the person until the person parts company or concedes and submits.

The WELS church still exists, but the congregation near my home is dying on the vine. With the death of the next generation, if the church doesn’t radically change, it will die, too. One can only hope.

The dark ages are behind us, along with menstruating on a mat in an isolated tent. Praise God. Shalom.

We all call ourselves “christians”, acting as close to resemble Jesus Christ’s behavior. Yet, we have forgotten his message of love, and kindness entirely. When will we all realize, we can not be just like Jesus. He was God’s ability to send us a beacon of love and hope. Yet, humanity takes all love and hope and perverts it. Luckly, through God’s grace and our faith he forgives us. So, let us try harder to be kind and loving to our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ; rather than being the “correct christian”.

Ah yes, the church I was raised in. Or the synod. Whatevs. Fuck ’em.

No, each person does not need to respect the belief of the other; each person needs to respect the other person, but not necessarily his or her beliefs…especially when those beliefs claim that in heaven above God views men and women as equals, but here on earth, men have authority over women.

Yes, Victor, Paul does say that women are to remain silent in the churches. But, Paul was a human being, and, as such, was prone to error. I’d say this was one of his off days. Please recall that Jesus often spoke with women, encouraging them to focus on spirituality above housework or instructing them to tell the world about his resurrection. I don’t recall his ever instructing women to fill out 3″ x 5″ cards and pass them out to their men folk if they wanted to ask questions or to spread the good news.

 Then you’re not WELS, seem more LCMS……

Why don’t you join a church with your views, rather than subverting WELS?