Peaceful High School Protest Against Westboro Baptist Church

some teacher he spelled masturbates wrong still funny though.

What if, while the Westboro folks were all off protesting somewhere, a large group came to their place, to protest them?

I disagree with Doug. I think it’s far more important to attack harmful religious practices than it is to attack the institute of religion itself. There are millions of loving and accepting Christians who support our gay brothers and sisters, and I don’t think our response to them should be, “Well, you’re being just as silly as the WBC.”

I was recently on a Faith and Sexuality panel at my campus, and I was the token atheist among four or so gay pastors (and one religious gook who opposed homosexuality). I enjoyed talking with these people about their faith, and how they reconciled that faith with their sexuality. And honestly, I didn’t care that they believed in a god. What does it matter, if they’re not harming anyone through that belief? If they’re not opposing science education and the separation of church and state? It’s easy enough to say that religious belief leads to harmful practices, but this does not seem like a necessary consequence to me. And when the consequences aren’t there, what’s the problem?

I find this very interesting, as WBC is actually going to protest at my own high school this week. Many people are talking about staging an anti-protest while they are protesting (but then again, we are a bunch of teenagers; who knows if people will follow through?). Sadly, I won’t be able to attend, since my mother conveniently scheduled my dentist appointment for that day. She’s worried that someone will attack them and we’ll all get arrested or something like that.

In any case, it’s really very interesting to hear all of the responses to their arrival. Of course, everyone I’ve talked to is extremely upset and is very angry–we live near a military base, and many people have relatives in the military–but their justifications are laughable. They claim that the Westboro Baptist Church isn’t a “true” Christian denomination. Perfect example of the No True Scotsman fallacy.

The misspelling of “masturbates” really is kind of embarrassing and is unfortunately the only thing I took away from those photos.

“But do you think Doug has a point that the anti-Westboro Christians give cover to the Westboro people by appealing to the same god?”

Yes. It’s one unsupportable, made-up claim against another. As Sam Harris points out in “The End of Faith,” moderate and liberal believers provide mainstream cred to irrational, supersitious ideas, thereby indirectly legitimizing the fringe. They tend to pepper legitimate, well reasoned arguments with gratuitous woo. That said, the xtain counter-protestors hearts (if not their brains) are in the right place and they should probably be the least of your concerns when in a situation such as this.

BTW–when dealing with trailer-rubbish such as the Westboro Klux Klan, spelling really does count.

Anyone see the student behind the woman photographer in the foreground? He’s got facepaint on and his sign says “I LIKE TURTLES”. Lawl.

To Kai

I find it hard to think of a religious practice that isn’t harmful in the long run. Can anyone enlighten me?

Your own example of the gay pastors that have “reconciled their faith with their sexuality”; you say that as if it’s a good thing; but why should they have to? Would it also be a good thing if they “reconciled their [right handed] faith” with being left handed? Why would anyone want to be a member of such an organization? It sounds like a black man “reconciling his faith” with the KKK.

You say “What does it matter, if they’re not harming anyone through that belief?” Well, I’m sure the Pastors weren’t planning to axe murder anyone on campus, but you can be equally as sure that they’re going to vote (and indoctrinate other people into voting) for someone that supports the oppression of women, (denying the right to choose while simultaneously opposing contraception), the Priest child abuse cover up, distortion of science, (soul belief, stem cell research, etc.), delusional ideas, (world created in seven days, Noah’s arc, born of a virgin, transubstantiation, the resurrection and atonement), the right of death with dignity, anti-condoms even for disease prevention, and the child abuse of indoctrination using the threat of hell.

But then again, I’m sure they were nice guys?

You’ve been duped and you don’t even realize it.

P.S. I’m an Engineer by trade, so bad spelling is part of my job description. (I hate it that Microsoft Word spell checker doesn’t work with capitals.)

I don’t even think the question is about whether the nice Christians are propping up puke-stains like WBC. My problem is that holding up “God is love” signs derails the point into a theological discussion. The point of the counter-protests is to mock WBC’s hateful yet childish behavior as the pathetic attention-whoring impotence that it is, worthy only of the bemused mockery of the rest of the world. Whether you believe “God is love” or “God hates Fags” is beside the point–their behavior is disgusting and their methods are absurd, and picketing funerals is one of the nastiest things you can do–it’s neither the time nor place for it.

The serious signs are saying, “Oh, no no no, you’ve got God all wrong!” when a much better and more effective message in this situation is “You’re a damn child and you need to grow up.”

That said, it is nice to see the nice Christians putting their money where their mouth is and defying the ugly Christians rather than just berating atheists for lumping them together while not doing a damn thing to show their disassociation. I always have to say to them, “Those guys aren’t True Christians ™? Well then, what are you doing being so quiet? Don’t tell me, tell them!” I just think the mockery angle is more effective with WBC.

“The same God” is a bullshit statement. It’s not possible. Really.

I’ve done the atheist thing. And it’s awesome that people are willing to face unpleasant realities even in the face of instinctual fear. If you think that being an atheist makes you a better person, sweet.
But don’t be an asshole. Don’t worry about making ridiculous arguments. Talk is cheap. Make the world a better place and your actions will speak for themselves. The proof is, as they say, in the pudding.

almostpositive@gmail.com

every time i masturbate, a kitten kills a god

Can we at least agree on a definition of Christian that is limited to the actions and teachings of Christ.

No.

@ Ed

In the link you provided, an Evidence-based Practice Center concluded that “Many uncertainties surround the practice of meditation. Scientific research on meditation practices does not appear to have a common theoretical perspective and is characterized by poor methodological quality. Firm conclusions on the effects of meditation practices in healthcare cannot be drawn based on the available evidence. Future research on meditation practices must be more rigorous in the design and execution of studies and in the analysis and reporting of results.” So until then, I would say that meditation is firmly in the skeptical ‘alternative medicine’ category.

However, eastern religion has given meditation ‘mysticism’ that has aided its popularity. If meditation ‘works’ (whatever that means) or not, it should stand or fall on its own merits. That’s another strike against religion if you ask me.

It’s a bit of a stretch to say that meditation is religion but regardless, as long as people don’t believe there’s something magical happening, if it proves to provide advantages, that’s great, but it won’t give religion any credit. For example, it’s no secret that a sensible diet, moderate exercise, and having a good support structure and community is the recipe for health. But just because religion provides the latter doesn’t give it any credit. Investing in ones family and friends can be achieved through one’s knitting society, bowling club, or freethought organization just as effectively as one’s church.

Doug- I never claimed meditation was a religion. You asked for a religious practice that was not harmful in the long run. Meditation is a religious practice.

Investing in ones family and friends can be achieved through one’s knitting society, bowling club, or freethought organization just as effectively as one’s church.

Again, although I agree with you, this is not the issue. The point is not whether or not there are secular options that provide the same benefits- the point is that your claim that ALL religious practices are ultimately harmful, is outright bunk.

Many religious practices (like every other activity human beings engage in from sex to sun bathing) are neutral, many are negative, many are positive and many more some combination of the above. I provided several religious practices with some evidence that they are positive or some mix of positive and negative, but really I suppose the burden of proof ought to rest with you and your claim that all religious practices are harmful. Can you detail how every single religious practice is harmful?

While I’m at it, I’ll also ask you to clarify your knowledge about the beliefs, character and behavior of the pastors Kai mentioned, where you wrote :

Well, I’m sure the Pastors weren’t planning to axe murder anyone on campus, but you can be equally as sure that they’re going to vote (and indoctrinate other people into voting) for someone that supports the oppression of women, (denying the right to choose while simultaneously opposing contraception), the Priest child abuse cover up, distortion of science, (soul belief, stem cell research, etc.), delusional ideas, (world created in seven days, Noah’s arc, born of a virgin, transubstantiation, the resurrection and atonement), the right of death with dignity, anti-condoms even for disease prevention, and the child abuse of indoctrination using the threat of hell.

How can you be so certain what these pastors believe without even knowing their denominations? For all you know they where all UU pastors (which again wouldn’t tell you conclusively anything about their beliefs, voting patterns etc.) Pretty much the only thing you can be sure of about them is that since they are all pastors, none of them is a Catholic.

@ Ed

Meditation is NOT a “religious practice”. It’s a practice sometimes adopted by some religions. Just like providing community isn’t a “religious practice” for the same reasons.

I guess I should specify that my definition of a “religious practice” is something that involves the unexplainable ‘woo’. (I don’t see how sex or sunbathing applies?) You say you’ve provided several examples of religious practice. I got meditation, what about the others? Instead of just saying “bunk”, and my request is an “appeal to ignorance”, please provide a list. I would honestly be very interested.

I didn’t say that “all religious practices are harmful”, or “every single religious practice is harmful“. You’re just putting words in my mouth, no better than any creationist. I said “I find it hard to think of a religious practice that isn’t harmful in the long run.”

I have three kids and I think Santa is a great idea because of the look of wonder in their eyes on Christmas morning. If I would have thought that they’d believe in Santa into their adulthood then I wouldn’t have allowed it, hence the term “in the long run”.

But take the central Christian premise that Jesus was born of a virgin, rose from the dead and absolved us of our sins. You can’t see any potential problems with that? From the violation of biological science, to the belief in the afterlife to having a “get out of my sins free card”?

Lastly, your statement that, for all I knew, the Pastors that Kai were debating with could have been UU Pastors. I don’t think I was presumptuous in assuming that the Pastors had a supernatural belief of some sort. Why would they be debating an atheist, reconciling their homosexuality with their faith, and be calling themselves Pastors. How many atheist Pastors (that are out) are there?

I state my request again. “Can anyone give me any supernatural practice that isn’t harmful in the long run?

Ed said:

Meditation is a religious practice.

Doug said:

Meditation is NOT a “religious practice”. It’s a practice sometimes adopted by some religions.

I would clear this up as follows:

Meditation for reasons of relaxation might be good for you, but is clearly not a religious practice. Its purpose is completely secular.

Meditation as a religious practice, however, must have some spiritual purpose to consider it a “religious” practice. Something like “becoming one with the universe” or “finding your inner spirit” or something like that. The relaxation might be a beneficial side-effect, but it is not relevant to its religious purpose.

If we now agree that there is very likely no inner spirit or universal consciousness to be reached, trying to reach these through meditating becomes a complete waste of time, and therefore harmful. Not dangerously harmful, of course, but it’s a missed opportunity to do something that could have been useful.

@ Ed

We’re getting confused over semantics of “religious practice” and “supernatural practice”. To me, they’re the same and imply something magical is going on. So, if I may restate it as, “I find it hard to think of a supernatural practice that isn’t harmful in the long run” I’ll reply to your answers as follows: –

Mediation (Including bowing & chanting) – If the relaxation, listening to rhythmic music, provide benefits/stress relief, that’s fine. But if you believe that because it makes you “closer to god”, “one with the universe”, or “more enlightened” than someone that doesn’t meditate – PROBLEM

Fasting – If the body has naturally evolved to cope with, and even expect occasional periods of starvation, then that’s fine. But if you believe that because you fasted you’re somehow “purer” or “in god’s graces” more than someone that doesn’t fast – PROBLEM

Prayer (Including karmic merit) – It makes the individual believe that they’re doing something useful, and informing other people that one’s praying for them can instill a sense of community that has benefits. However, problems believing you can talk to god range from being a waste of time, praying instead of doing something that can really solve the problem, to thinking that god is on your side because of your schizophrenia – PROBLEM

Baptism – Going through a family ceremony provides another form of community and is fine. But if you believe that the baby (who has no choice in the matter) is now a member of a certain club for the rest of his/her life that’s enforced by the power of god – PROBLEM.

Marriage – If a man and a woman (or a man/man woman/woman for that matter) want to live the rest of their life together then that’s not only fine but I believe an evolutionarily adaptive desire. But thinking that god has joined people together so divorce isn’t an option is responsible for tragedies from life long misery to condoning rape and continual wife beating – PROBLEM

Last rights – If someone want to give statements to their family before they die, that may be comforting for the individual and also for the family (or not) that go on living. But if someone thinks that they can do a bad thing in life and then just confess it on their death bed and everything okay with “Jesus” and they’re still going to “heaven” that just encourages more bad behavior – PROBLEM

Diet – If someone doesn’t like to eat something (I personally can’t stand celery), that’s fine. But if someone believes that all people that eat pork are dirty because god said so, or beef because the cow is a sacred animal – PROBLEM

Communion – There’s nothing wrong with the ceremony, but if someone actually believes that because a priest waves his hand over a cracker it magically turns into the flesh of a man that dies 2000 years ago, it’s no different from Voodoo. I was at a Catholic Convention where all the priests were given a standing ovation because they were the only ones with “the gift of transubstantiation”. This raises the ‘human’ priests to a higher Witch Doctor or godly lever and therefore is a contributor to the susceptibility of child rape. – BIG PROBLEM

Every time I kill a kitten, god masturbates.

Every time a kitten masturbates God, it kills me.

@ Kai, Ed, & RunawayJim

“It all comes down to one thing. Are the people good people?”

“With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.”
Steven Weinberg, quoted in The New York Times, April 20, 1999
If the sweetest, kindest, most wonderful little old lady votes for a politician because of her perspective of where she wants the country to go based on reason, rationality, critical thinking, etc., that’s absolutely fine. But if she votes for that same politician based on a belief in an all powerful invisible magical dictator who she thinks is controlling everything, that’s a bad thing a little above being “just silly”.

Because of that vote, what if you were gay and weren’t allowed to marry the person you love, would that be “just silly”? Because of that vote, if you were a woman that was told that contraception is bad and got pregnant and weren’t allowed to have an abortion, even if you were raped or the fetus was deformed, would that be “just silly”? Because of that vote, if your kid got the HIV virus because schools told them that condoms were bad, that would be “just silly”? Because of that vote, if your kids come home from school and tell you that they were taught that the world is 6,000 years old, thereby making it impossible for them to get a profession in biology, zoology, medicine, geology, astronomy, and pretty much any science field, is that “just silly”? Because of that vote, if you had a crippling debilitation and agonizing disease where there was no hope and you saw the devastation it was causing not only to you but to your loved ones, not having the option to end your own life would be “just silly”? Because of that vote, what if your little girl looked terrified and was psychologically traumatized because she stole a cookie from the cookie jar and was told at school she’s going to burn forever in a lake of fire, would that be “just silly”?

A lot of atheists go on about religious belief being responsible for instigating most wars, The Crusades, The Conquistadores, The Inquisition, etc. But that was a long time ago and would never happen, say, in the last election. To think that a politician, no matter how young, pretty, and charismatic could ever come to power that believed in say, the End Times and would be willing to implement world policy to start the Rapture in an attempt to bring on the second coming of Christ. Why, thinking something like that would be “JUST SILLY”?

Kai wrote

It’s easy enough to say that religious belief leads to harmful practices, but this does not seem like a necessary consequence to me. And when the consequences aren’t there, what’s the problem?

The problem is that religious belief requires and values accepting substantial propositions about the nature of the universe and humans without evidence, and even in the face of contradicting evidence. It’s the positive valuing of belief in the absence of evidence that makes all religion dangerous. While we often have to accept things on the say-so of other people because we simply don’t have time to evaluate every claim, where the issues get real serious claims must be susceptible to examination and (potentially) rejection in the light of independent evidence. But religions insulate themselves precisely in order to avoid that sort of examination. That is a pernicious intellectual stance.

@ Ed

If a person has a supernatural belief, then they can justify anything. When I say “anything” I mean ANYTHING. From wearing magical underpants to flying planes into buildings. Obviously the ‘danger’ involved varies significantly from the little old lady that votes for a bible thumping politician to a Taliban terrorist, but in their mind they’re capable of justifying “ANYTHING! ANYTHING! ANYTHING!

I think people have been ‘numbed’ by religion. If a person was sitting next to you and told you that his dog becomes invisible on Wednesdays, you’d at least walk away because the guy may be dangerous. You may even be tempted to call the funny farm. But if that person said that a man that lived 2000 years ago died, came back to life, rose into the sky, and in doing so took all the responsibility for all the bad things away from every human being that has or will ever live –no problem there eh?

If a million people believe something ridiculous, it’s called a religion. If a thousand people believe the same thing, it’s called a cult. If one person believes the same thing, it’s called insanity. Just because you’ve heard the bullshit a million times, doesn’t mean it’s not bullshit.

@Ed

Maybe it’s just semantics but talking about people that “are religious but don’t have any supernatural beliefs” to me is a nonsensical statement. The very definition of the word religion implies belief in the supernatural.

However, I think I understand your question. Obviously these people themselves aren’t the problem, but in involving themselves with religion they do tend to promote it from just adding to their numbers, (which encourages more membership), to putting money in the collection plate. Also, any good they do for the community, religion gets the credit.

My father was an atheist (he called himself an agnostic) but attended church regularly because he did a lot of community work and the Christian establishment was the best (and probably only) way to network.

But, I say again, obviously these people are at the very bottom of the ‘problem list’.

To answer your second point, even a “relatively benign belief that is supernatural” can turn around and bite you in the ass. The belief that a supernatural being implants a soul at the moment a human sperm enters a human egg causes problem that take rights away from women and gets the occasional abortion doctor murdered.

Going down the scale of irrational belief, of which I have many myself, they can still be destructive. Taking your example of not walking under a ladder, it may be an urban myth but I heard there was a kindergarten teacher that walked her children onto the road to avoid walking under a ladder and there was an accident. I also heard that a woman committed suicide after breaking a mirror because she couldn’t face the seven years of bad luck. I guess the rule is that irrationality is okay as long as it doesn’t cause problems.

There was a psychology experiment where a bowl of ice cram was put in one corner of a room and a bowl of human excrement was put in another corner. The bowls were far enough apart that people had no problem eating the ice cream. But if the end of a length of fishing wire was placed in the feces and went up and draped across the ceiling of the room and the other end was placed in the ice cream, people were very reluctant to eat the ice cream. However, if an inch of fishing wire was cut out of the middle so there wasn’t a continuous line, people had no problem eating the ice cream again.

Even though it’s irrational, I can easily imagine my behavior being the same as the test subjects.

So what’s wrong with that I hear you ask? Well there’s a direct parallel between this experiment and the relocation of terrorists from Guantanamo Bay to mainland America. People, (including myself) have an irrational belief that it’s somehow a ‘spiritual’ insult to our troops that fought and died in Afghanistan. Or that terrorists are so despicable that the thought of them escaping and being on American soil is too much to bear, where rationally, in the very unlikely event that there was a prison break, I’d rather have terrorists in my neighborhood than your run of the mill every day murderers.

So in this instance, I would analyze all the evidence, realize that my belief was irrational and have the mental capability to go against my instincts and change my mind. Religious people can’t do that.

“But do you think Doug has a point that the anti-Westboro Christians give cover to the Westboro people by appealing to the same god?”

No. And in a sense, it’s not the same god, is it?

I do agree that those people probably shouldn’t have tried to make theological counterpoints at a protest. Protests are a good place for quick slogans that discredit the opponent i.e. “every time i kill god a kitten masturbates.”

But for Christians, the stakes are higher than they are for atheists. As evidenced in this very forum, some people will make broad generalizations about a large group of people based on the actions and words of a vocal minority (this bigoted way of simplifying humanity is one of the chief problems Atheists have with Christians, oddly enough). I think that the Christians holding up signs like “God is Love” were really trying to tell that to others, not necessarily arguing with those crazies protesting the Laramy Project.

Also if all gods are just made by people, and one person’s version says that God hates gay people and someone else’s says He doesn’t, those aren’t really the same gods at all, are they?

as A Christian I wish folks stop calling these Folks Christians. It’s also the same when people lump the catholic church with christianity cathlics only represent 6% of so called christians. anyways these people are loons and if they were in my town I would probably counter them in a smart way only problem you have loons like the guy in the pick above is as offensive as these idiots from westboro. so anyways if anyone wants to know what the actual tru definition of Religion is according to the bible read one sentence James 1:27 and its ok to quiz so called christians because if they are not doing that then its all for not. So go in peace much love for lovers and haters live life. remember God is Love anyone tell you different they are smoking out og the wrong pipe