Misinformed Christian Teacher Versus Wiccan Student

I’ve never understood people’s odd misconceptions about separation of church and state; like people thinking they can’t pray in schools. You can still pray whenever the heck you want, you just can’t make anyone else pray. Pray before you eat, don’t make the children in your classroom pray. How hard is that to figure out?

When will the creepily religious figure out that separation of church and state also works in their favor? They just so want to deny others, that’s all it ever boils down to.

The article is assuming the Christian kid wanted to make a dull and uninspiring cross. Anyone with a knowledge of religious art can tell you a crucifix can be a very intensive piece of craftsmanship.
That being said, both kids should have been allowed to, using the same reasoning as the English essay scenario. There is nothing about separation of church and state that limits free expression. I still agree with the article that this teacher is all kinds of wrong.

There’s a difference between a kid expressing something religious and being taught something religious in school… so long as it’s done in a respectful way and in the way of rational dialog.

As an atheist English teacher, I had no problems with things like Christian Students who wanted to compare James and the Giant Peach to the process of redemption as defined in his faith. Nor did I have problems with religious themes of any kind in any of the creative projects in my drama classes.

There is a profound difference between promoting a specific religion and discussing the role of religion in the arts, literature, or society.

Making an altar of any kind for shop class seems totally suitable, so long as the teacher wasn’t saying “make this kind of altar and not that”. Prohibiting the project because of HIS religious beliefs is where the shop teacher was absolutely wrong… and the school was also wrong for allowing or sanctioning some sort of survey that stigmatized a student on the basis of what his religion was… or wasn’t.

Sounds like this teacher was at least trying to be reasonable (supporting church-state separation), though he apparently was woefully misinformed about Wicca. I figure that’s better than a teacher who scoffs at and willfully undermines church-state separation. Apology plus education rather than dismissal, IMHO. Good “teachable moment” for the rest of the kids, too.

If I were the shop teacher, I would allow the kids to make anything they wanted within the rules and scope of the project. But they should be aware that two boards and a nail is going to get a bad grade. Now if they wanted to make a fancy Celtic cross or carve a dead Jesus crucifix or something, they might get a better grade.

It’s not like you stand up in front of the class and give a speech about your shop project. Because realistically, you’d end up with a whole lot of “so this is my shelf…”

I’d also flush the students’ petition. School is not a democracy. Deal. But I probably wouldn’t discipline the teacher beyond reversing his decision. Maybe he could write a report on modern misconceptions about Wicca. lol.

One problem is a lack of exposure and a fear of the unknown. Popular misconceptions abound.

Wicca is what it is, I don’t agree with it, but I think it’s safer than Christianity. The real problem is that people have an irrational fear of it. Very few people know what it is, few know those that practice it. It doesn’t help that it seems to be practiced very quietly and often secretly, I think largely because of the high risk of persecution by people that put up walls rather than just asking honest questions.

Three points:

1. Proper way to have handled it was to simply say to both, “make whatever you like. But remember, they’ll be graded according to the standards that apply to all the projects: degree of difficulty, quality of design and execution, etc.”

2.Failing that, applying the same standard to both — no religious objects — was an acceptable alternative, though just barely, to avoid scenarios involving parents claiming religious discrimination if one project was poorly done and the other well done. [I can see the headlines in the local paper now: “Witch Altar Gets A; Cross Gets F! What’s Happening In Our Schools?”

3. What is even more appalling is the apparent belief among 70 or so of the students in the school that religious belief among the student body is and should be subject to majority vote. I’m more worried about the instruction they’re getting in civics and the Constitution than I am about how things are going in woodshop.

wow…if you read the article it really was ONLY because he was scared. Even after the teacher found out his religous beliefs he said the altar was fine…but then got scared when the kid kept bringing a wiccan book to school. (which i assume he may have used as a reference for the altar)

i found out this one girl in my class was wiccan and i kinda sorta made fun of her. and then i felt terrible because i’m sure she gets worse shit than that constantly. so i apologized, told her i was atheist and let her know i think christianity is not only fake, but full of sheep. we’re friends again.

Yeah, I would believe his separation of church and state thing if he had said the same thing about the Wiccan student. But, uh, he didn’t. Man, his case would have been so much stronger if he hadn’t resorted to fear mongering.

I have to say that I could really go either way on this one. Sure, the teacher said some ignorant things — but he has two options in his class:

1. Disallow *any* shop project related to religion

2. Allow *any* shop project related to religion

This isn’t much different than any other public forum first amendment issue. However if a student chooses to use the shop project to create a religious object – with no prompting or suggestion from the teacher – then they have every right to do so.

If a student creates a cross by nailing together two boards – no problem. Of course it’s an “F” shop project but that’s unrelated to the cross. If the kid with the altar slapped four boards together with tape and balanced a fifth across the top that would also be an “F” shop project.

Either student could have taken the time to create a detailed, ornate expression of their religion – by their own choice and while not disrupting the class – and been within their rights.

Alan, if you want a comments cross, try the unicode dagger character (& #x2020;) since lowercase Ts look very different in certain typefaces.

†

Although, I prefer the smiley face: ☺ (& #x263a;)

As a former Wiccan this doesn’t surprise me. The amount of ignorance and hatred leveled at Wiccans by Christians would be astonishing if I hadn’t seen so much of it. Just this week I found out that former coworker thought I was trying to put a spell on him when I tried to describe this video of Bobby McFerrin. My ex-coworker thought I was saying “pentagrammic” scale instead of pentatonic scale. He is a music major in college and really ought to know better, but fundamentalist fear of witchcraft does strange things to people.

The fact that “Halferty said he previously told another student he could not build a cross in shop class because he believes in the separation of church and state” is an irrelevant distraction probably to deflect criticism.

His viewpoint: “We as Christians don’t get to have our say during school time, so why should he?”

This is just typical Christian persecution complex. Oh boo hoo.

I want to be more clear about the issue of separation of church and state, as there seems to be some confusion about what it means and how it applies.

The separation of church and state was conceived to prevent the state from endorsing or enforcing any theology on the people. It was never contemplated that people would be prevented from the free expression of their beliefs.

IF the shop teacher were to say “You may construct a cross but not a Star of David,” that would violate the constitution as you would have an agent of the state (the teacher) giving preference to one religious expression over another.

IF the shop teacher were to say “You may construct anything you like” there is no violation as the state is not preferring any religious belief system over another.

IF the shop teacher were to say “No religious symbols may be made in shop class” it would not be a separation of church and state problem, but it MIGHT BE a 1st Amendment problem – restricting freedom of expression.

The metric to be applied to assessing a wood shop project (one supposes) is the skill demonstrated in the use of materials and equipment in the making of the object, not the nature of the object itself.
If the kid makes an incredibly complex six-pointed star or a particularly ornate water hookah (read BONG), the only question ought to be, “Does the project demonstrate the skill sets taught in the course?” The question should NOT be, “Does the object comport with my sense of right and wrong.”

Separation of church and state binds THE STATE (and its agents), not the individual citizen. People who forget that may well find themselves involved in litigation. There is nothing in the constitution that supports the argument “No religious symbols may be made in shop class.”

The school is certainly precluded from forcing students to make crosses and only crosses (or a mogen David and only mogen David). [Note: This is not as simple an argument as it appears – there is certainly an element of woodworking that REQUIRES being able to join two pieces of wood at a 90 degree angle, flush mounted at the joint. One would have to demonstrate a religious preference…blah blah blah…I digress.]

The school has, IMO, no business saying “Thou shalt make no religious symbols.” Not unless they also ban the students from wearing crosses, ‘God is Dead’ t-shirts, and have some sort of secular-based policy in place to support this shop teacher’s off-the-cuff and rather muddled reasoning.

Smith acknowledged that some people have expressed fears about satanism or sacrifices.

Yo, Steve-o: The very center of the Christian religion is an act of human sacrifice. You can look it up yourself in that Bible you keep on your shelf but obviously never read.

I grew up in a small town in Iowa and Guthrie Center sounds exactly the same. A town full of ignorant WASPs with no sense of right or wrong that do a lot of fearful dithering anytime somebody steps out from the norm. I hope Dale wakes up and actually learn the law on Separation of Church and State, and I wish his student the best of luck because he’s going to need it. It was rough being an outsider in such a small community.

I’d say both of the kids should be allowed to make whatever they want, be it a cross or an altar. Grade them on their work, not on their choice of project. I still have a few things I made from woodshop in middle school, and they are meaningful to me because I put the work into them, slaved over them, loved them. Let the kids have their memories and their beloved projects.

As long as the items are acceptable for viewing during the creation process (i.e. no naked figures, cuss words, etc carved in) then I have no problem with it.

I have no problem with students being allowed to make religious projects in shop class.

That is history, and as diplomatic as it would seem to forbid any religious projects/discussions etc and apply it to every student and teacher, the rule could and WOULD extend to students taking offense at history and science classes.

Exactly. There seem to be a lot of people who don’t think that students should be allowed to make religious projects in public school, by which I assume they mean projects even tangentially associated with religion.

But this is simply impossible. How in the world could you teach history without mentioning various religions? If children are studying ancient Egypt, they learn what the people believed about deities and the afterlife. It would not be inappropriate for them to build replicas of pyramids and mummies. If they’re studying medieval Europe, it would be perfectly fine for them to draw a picture of a cathedral. If they’re studying ancient Mesopotamia, then ziggurats would be in order.

I live in California, and all fourth graders here learn about the California Missions as part of a year-long focus on state history. Children research the missions, write reports, create stories, and often build models like these. This is history, not proselytization or an inappropriate breach of separation of church and state. As an atheist, I have no problem with it.

False assertion #1: Witchcraft is no more dangerous than Christianity.
False assertion #2: They’re both silly myths that have their fair share of problems.
False assertion #3: For the teacher to voice an opinion on the student’s religion [e.g. witchcraft] like this is foolish and wrong.
etc….