Atheist (Sincerely) Thanks Ray Comfort

I’ll take my chances on the meteorite, Banana Man can just go away.

“…I’m going to go sit in the fetal position in my room and cry now.”

Well, just let it out, then. Everything’s gonna’ be alright.

Way back in the day when I was still a Christian, I felt the same way. I felt obligated to “convert” others in order to save them, because I didn’t want them to suffer an eternity in the pits of hell. My intentions were entirely good, as I am sure the intentions of (most) other followers of religion are. One of the things that led me on the road to atheism/agnosticism was when I realized that my parents, who are Asian Buddhists, were bound for hell if I didn’t convert them. But as a second generation American, I only knew how to speak English and knew there was no way for me to effectively communicate with them and change their minds. I knew them too well, and that it was impossible to get them to become Christians.. they were old and firmly set in their ways, and I felt it grossly unjust that they should go to hell when I felt that they were genuinely good people who have led a good life. And then I started thinking, if there are about 1 or 2 billion Christians in the world, there would be around 5 billion people in the world who would be going to hell for not believing in Christianity. Something didn’t seem right about that. Especially since there are people in remote reaches of the world who would have absolutely no means of learning about Christianity; surely they couldn’t be destined for hell for reasons beyond their control.

I’m actually rather glad I used to be religious before I became an atheist. I remember the mindset I possessed as a Christian, and though my intentions were good, my critical thinking on the matter remained flawed. I always keep that in mind when dealing with a person who is religiously inclined. I know quite a few other atheists who can be rather hostile to followers of religion, and I find it disappointing that they should treat them in a sometimes condescending and malevolent manner. When I was a Christian and met such individuals, I naturally refused to listen to anything they had to say (would any of us really want to speak or listen to a raging, hostile Christian belittling and damning us?). It was when I began speaking with others who were “gentle” in their agnosticism, who encouraged me to think critically and suggested profound questions on these matter, that I truly began to see the truth. Gently nudging the religious into questioning their faith won’t work all the time (the success rate will likely still be rather low, sadly), but it’s better than trying to shove it down their throats. For those who used to be religious in the past, please keep in mind that you were like them at one point too… that they are not all bad folk, they’re people just like you and me.

I totally agree with the sentiment expressed here. Once anyone truly believes the Bible is the inspired word of the one true God, then the only thing left to do is ensure everyone is following its instructions as closely as possible.

Ray (as bat shit crazy as he is) honestly believes he is doing the right thing. He will not cease as long as he continues in this belief, and due to the nature of his affliction he is unlikely to realise he is wrong. I am afraid we are stuck with Ray for a while yet.

Well just how far should you go to save someone from this hypothetical meteor?

Would you…

Resort to blackmail?
Try to drag them out against their will?
Threaten to set the house on fire?
Actually set the house on fire?

Where do you draw the line? At some point it doesn’t matter how noble your intentions may be, your actions still make you a bad person.

The god that Ray Comfort sincerely believes in is the same god who will punish me for eternity in everlasting torment. He’ll do this not because I’m a bad person but because I lack a belief in something that I have no evidence for. It is fine for him to belief in such an arsehat deity and to sincerely worship him. If he actually succeeds in getting me to believe in such a god then I’m going to have to start doing something to fight such an evil being.

Okay, a meteor is about to hit my house. SHOW ME THE PROOF! That is the same thing I ask for when people try to convince me of the existence of their ‘god’. At least the meteor is real and would be very easy to prove.

Yep, Ray used a $25 gift certificate as bait. And look what he reeled in: a blog post trumpeting his sincerity. Expect to see the Ziztur post, carefully edited, quoted in some future Comfort publication.

Actually it’s more like that meteor is arriving “tomorrow” and every day it never comes, but it’s always coming “tomorrow”. How many times has Christ’s return been predicted and not occurred?

Depends on the source of evidence. Did someone with a large telescope track this meteor and calculate where it might hit? Or did someone have a dream about a bad Hollywood movie and lucky numbers on a fortune cookie that happened to match my address? Which of these two categories does Comfort fit?

The god that Ray Comfort sincerely believes in is the same god who will punish me for eternity in everlasting torment. He’ll do this not because I’m a bad person but because I lack a belief in something that I have no evidence for. It is fine for him to belief in such an arsehat deity and to sincerely worship him. If he actually succeeds in getting me to believe in such a god then I’m going to have to start doing something to fight such an evil being.

That is one of the most brilliant posts ever, hoverfrog. I wish there was a way I could sig this like a forum.

@NoYourGod: regarding god finding a good publisher, I once read a description of the bible:

It has some excellent writing and some truly awful writing. What the bible really needs is an editor. (The source is J. Michael Straczynski, who created Babylon 5 and writes a lot of TV/movies.)

While I can understand the reasoning behind Ziztur’s post, I do not agree. The “what” of a belief is not the important aspect in determining its ethical or moral character, but rather it is the “how” or method that the belief was formed.

Ray’s beliefs are formed solely upon personal experience (betraying an arrogant solipsism), logical fallacies (the Bible is true because the Bible says itself is true), and prideful, willful ignorance (he admitted to reading only a handful of books on biology and then he writes books and introductions purporting to disprove the entire scientific discipline).

I could assent to Ziztur’s and Penn Jillette’s reasoning in many cases such as individuals who are honestly ignorant, but not in Ray’s case. Ray is just as some have already cast him as in this thread: a rotten and dim individual with merely a thin sugar coating of illusory sheen.

To use the same metaphor: if you came to the conclusion that there was a meteor heading right for my house and you deduced this through careful observation with a telescope and consultation with the appropriate astronomical texts to double check for trajectory, etc then that is defensible and ethical. However, if you came to such a conclusion by consulting a shaman who tosses chicken bones and because you “know in your heart” that there is a meteor, then your method is laughable as well as verging on the unethical – especially in cases such as Ray who is a semi-public figure.

Personally, I’d be upset if old Ray went away.

He’s provided more set-ups for banana jokes than anyone else on the planet.

Maybe next we can get him to tackle a parrot. I love parrot jokes.

I’d need a damn fair amount of solid evidence before I’d let someone coerce/threaten/push/shove/blackmail/etc. me out of my house, though. I’d need to see facts, pictures, peer reviewed papers, and so forth. If you can’t produce anything more than a musty old bronze-age book that says that one day in the far-flung and undreamt future there might be a meteor coming to smite me down where I live, then I’m not buying it.

Oh hell. You just have to point up in the sky and show me the meteor.

Penn Jilette’s analogy doesn’t work. Ray is the one flinging the meteorites at your house in the first place.

If Comfort still believes what he says is true, despite having repeatedly asked for and duly received evidence to the contrary, the only thing he is sincere about is his commitment to failed cognition.

Jane makes the statement, “Today there will be a car crash”. She hasn’t made a prophecy until she says where and when the crash will occur, how many vehicles will be involved, their make, model and year of manufacture.

But if Jane further asserts that a demand for these details constitutes a lack of faith in her ability to predict the future, we don’t credit her with having identified our inflexibility to her truth-claims.

Ray Comfort asserts falsehoods and demands an account for his wilful misunderstanding. I can not respect anyone who disrespects the truth, least of all when it is presented to them upon request and they choose to ignore it because it contradicts their pre-existing opinion.

TL;DR – Ray Comfort is a dick.

depending on why this man comes running into my house ranting about a meteor i would either A) stab them because they’re probably cray or B) calmly ask them approximately how long it will be until the meteor comes and how he knows it’s coming.

if he can answer B without quoting an old piece of literature or something some religious (or other non-scientific) person said…then i’d probably believe him a bit…atleast until i went to get a second opinion about the whole meteor situation.

All reasonable people agree that being in a house hit by a meteor is a bad thing. Not all reasonable people agree that not believing in the Christian god at the time of your death is a bad thing.

The difference between the meteor example and Christian evangelizing is the reasonableness of the belief. If I tried desperately to remove someone from their house because I believed a herd of pink unicorns was about to trample it, my behavior would not be laudable but annoying (at the least), and probably insane.

Different religious groups think different behavior/beliefs are required to avoid eternal damnation. There is no evidence (of course) to support any of the (competing) beliefs.

Their beliefs therefore to not meet the requirements to justify harassing someone in order to ‘save’ them.

Ray may sincerely believe he’s saving you in hell, but that still doesn’t justify acting in an insincere manner when he distorts scientific facts when he edits material out of Origin of Species and make up things about evolution that aren’t true. Atheists sincerely don’t believe in God but does that mean we should go around making up lies about religion? Does that still make us sincere as long as we sincerely disbelieve? John Shelby Spong is a sincere Christian too but he doesn’t believe you’re going to be tortured for all eternity for not believing him either nor does he distort scientific facts: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF6I5VSZVqc

At least the zealots are internally consistent.

People keep saying this, but it ain’t true. Fundamentalist theology is notorious for cherry-picking the Bible, and for papering over manifest contradictions in the text. They are inconsistent, just in a different way than the moderates. The latter, at least, allow their hermeneutic to give way before external evidence and humane values. Guess who I think is more worthy of respect.

Let’s say that Ray’s motives are that he gives a fuck (I don’t think he does but more on that below) so the fuck what? Who gives a shit that he gives a fuck? He’s still trying to harm me.

Jillette’s argument is horse shit. It really is. Not only are the two not comparable but, no, he doesn’t have the right to drag me kicking and screaming out of my house for my own good.

The only way this would be justifiable would be in clear and present danger. This means something like seeing a kid about to step onto the highway in front of a speeding Mack truck. You know you’ll be quick enough and the truck doesn’t have time to stop, so you run across the road, scooping him up and setting him down on the other side.

Listen, listen carefully, we are not children playing in the road and, even if we were, there is no Mack truck. Ray can shut the fuck up and leave us the hell alone.

I don’t think he’s this benign myself. I think what Ray really beieves in is Ray. He is the god he worships. Everything is to glorify Ray and his goodness. Otherwise the meal would have been anonymous. If it wasn’t about Ray, instead of spending the money on a PR stunt that will give him the fine opportunity to point to the nonbelievers (his equivalent of saying pay no attention to the man behind the curtain, meaning himself; shame on Jillette who should understand misdirection when he hears it), he’d spend it on feeding the homeless or anonymously giving it to Haiti. Hell, not even anonymously. Just quietly without all the bells and whistles calling attention to himself.

I groan every time he pulls this because I know there are going to be Athiests who take the baist and make us all look like flying monkeys. Assholes.

As for Ray, I think he wants money and fame but hasn’t got the talent or brains to make that happen any other way so he’s peddling the Godstuff and even the flying monkeys are jumping through hoops for him. Disgusting.

Seriously, what are you afraid of if you turn down his bullshit and ignore him or merely laugh at the moron. What you’re going to starve to death for lack of one free meal? If so, every city has a mission. At least you didn’t make a buffoon of yourself nationally even if you did have to sit through a sermon while the church running the mission beamed at their good works. Hell, you’d be better off panhandling than being his stooge.

I never heard of Ziztur before but I must say he’s appearing rather stupider than Ray Comfort and Ray Comfort’s too stupid to get rich and famous through any other venue.

Ray Comfort may indeed believe he is doing what is best, but that doesn’t excuse his actions. He is willfully ignorant, then expects those who have called him on this to respect his message. That’s petulant and arrogant and certainly not due any respect.

These are adults he is talking too–to perseverate in the face of the audience’s irritated rejection of his message is insolent co-dependence.

Comforts persistence indicates a lack of ability to accept that he might be wrong or to empathize with his audience. There is nothing acceptable or respectable about this and as has been pointed out by others, has led to some of the worst atrocities in history.

Hey guys!

No, I don’t think Ray’s sincerity is an excuse for lying and obfuscating the truth to promote his own agenda. Personally, I think that when he says things about atheists being akin to serial murderers in his publications to be downright unethical, as it promotes atheophobia and bigotry by people who really believe what he says.

On my blog I ripped on him repeatedly for that sort of thing, so I’d like to ask you guys not to look at this blog post where I thanked him for something in isolation. I’ve got like 100 posts about Ray’s writing on the blog. There, I repeatedly call him on his BS to the point of absolute absurdity. Really. I’m stupid because I said, “You’re a jerk, but thanks for this one thing!”? Come on…

I don’t think it is ethical or moral to lie to people, but I can kind of understand why he would, given that he sincerely believes we’re going to rot in hell for eternity. He’s wrong, and we won’t.

I also wouldn’t care if he carefully edited my post and put it on one of his books – it would make me laugh my ass off, honestly. There I would have, in print, perfect firsthand proof of quote-mining. I would be catching a thief red handed. 🙂

My fiancee Christopher is an atheist. For awhile, he was a christian. When he read the Bible at 11 or so, he realized that the god in the Bible that was supposed to be so awesome was actually the most evil being ever. He still believed this god was real, and he hated him and hated that all of his friends would go to hell. He was deeply depressed for years as he actively tried to save his friends from hell.

Later, he realized that the god of the Bible does not exist at all, and he was no longer depressed and no longer tried to convince people to be Christians. I don’t think he was a jerk, or did not have the right, to try to convince people. He was wrong, but so? Does being wrong and not knowing it mean you don’t have the right to try to convince people of your position?

What bothers me far more than comfort are the people who gleefully tell me that I’m going to hell, as though they are happy about it. They take great pleasure in “knowing” they will have eternal pleasure while their enemies will live in torment. Those people are terrible people. Ray is a terrible person for lying, but not for wanting to “save” us.

So, I think you guys are confusing, “Ray would be a terrible person if he just walked away” to mean, “Ray is NOT a terrible person for being a liar.”

P.S. Muggle – I’m a woman.

I think Ray is great. If all true believers behaved like him, all of the moderates would abandon Christianity.

Fred Phelps, Binny Hinn, Davd Koresh, we need to hold these guys up as perfect Christians. Then just open up the doors to rational thought and watch the masses pour through.

It’s the mushy headed moderates like Dinesh D’Souza that give so much wiggle room for Christianity to exist.

According to Daniel Dennentt, there are quite a few new religions that spring up every year. What kills them is a rigid dogma that cannot bend to the influx of new believers with slightly different viewpoints. If the religion remains inflexible, the dogma fails and the religion vanishes. If Christianity becomes tied to hard line dogmatic leaders, its fall becomes imminent. Its only hope for survival is the accommodationists, who the hard liners abhor. With hope, that will lead to a new schism. A schism between the biblical literalists and the accommodationists would be the best thing today. Divide and conquer my friends.

Revyloution,
Nice quotes, and nice positive way of looking at uncertainty. Thank you.

Bronowski did the entire book as a TV series many years ago. it was superbly crafted and visually stunning. Probably on CD at your local library.

Your daughter’s a lucky kid.

Sincere believers are a dreadful thing. If you’re one of them, then for you, nothing can be more important, more vital, than saving people’s souls. If you don’t, that person will go to hell and suffer unspeakable torture. So anything to avoid this is justified.

Even murder, I guess.

If you were a libertarian (or believed in people’s autonomy) then you would explain to them the danger they were in and try to persuade them to leave.

However, if they were of sound mind and were refusing to leave their house you have no right to force them.

No matter how nasty this seems any other decision is the first step on a slippery slope of telling people what they can and can’t do ‘for their own good’ and no-one wants that, do they?