Harlem Atheists Struggle Without Their Leader

I’m finding it rather racist to insist the new leader be black. So non-blacks in Harlem count for nothing? They’re not part of the community?

It’s time to get past this mentality. You can’t pull that crap in a white neighborhood anymore. It’s time to realize that it’s just as racist to insist on only giving the voice of leadership to a minority in the inner city.

Some of us honkies do come from there.

In most of the communities I’ve lived in before coming to New York, yes, a largely white group would likely throw a shit fit if any kind of minority was put in charge. At the very least, lots of folks would just disappear as a passive-aggressive attack.

I don’t think we can get past that mentality just by being frustrated by its persistence. In many people it’s as deeply ingrained as religion.

“While there’s a revolving door of participants, one constant is the meeting’s diversity: blacks, whites, Muslims, Christians, Jews, everyone is welcome.”

So… what is the problem?

I think it’s time we realize that this is not a perfect world. Certainly in such a world, there wouldn’t be a problem with a white atheist leading a black atheist group, but until then; people need to feel comfortable- especially in atheist groups.

I don’t think it’s racially insensitive to want a representative of a racial minority to be the leader of a group. Perhaps it is something irrational, but that’s just the way life is, and sometimes you’re just not going to understand unless you’re someone in the minority.

OK so atheist Jews shouldn’t lead atheist groups either because they don’t understand the ex-Christian attitude.

Well, to be completely candid, atheist Jews *don’t* understand the ex-Christian attitude. I believe in general that atheist groups are kinda self-defeating because atheists *don’t* share that much in common on their own (what? Not believing in God is…not that much.) So, AT THE VERY LEAST, if there is going to be a group that forms, I think that unofficial other similarities will develop. An ex-Mormon atheist is different than an atheist who was raised without religion, and is different from an ex-Muslim atheist, an ex-Jew atheist, etc., We can have something of a cross-cultural communication through symbols (e.g., the symbol of oppression in the midst of a greater community, although the particulars may vary, is generalizable enough so that people can have empathy and sympathy for each other.)

I feel pretty nihilistic about the race discussion that has gone on here, so I don’t know if I want to even try to invest any sense of time in trying to talk about it. I’m a glutton for punishment, so I probably will any way.

The issue is that many people want to take a color blind approach to the issue, when we still live in a system that is steeped in color consciousness and, contrary to what advocates of color blindness may believe, it does not dissipate simply by ignoring color. While advocates of color blindness recognize (or at least appear to recognize) one noteworthy thing (e.g., the differences aren’t caused by unresolvable, built-in biological differences), they fail to realize the continued social depth and reality of color. The problem is that the radical discussion of color and race that must occur to defuse this deep-seated tension is unpopular across the board, and understandably so.

Jennifer,

The commonality of our lack of faith, as I’ve tried to say, isn’t that much. (Do we make groups relating to our common lack of belief in unicorns? Do we make groups relating to our common lack of collecting stamps?) At best, we can point out the difference is that we have a cultural distinction between the formermost and the latter examples: as people who lack faith, we have culturally deep experiences from living in societies were lack of faith is not the norm. We don’t have these for lack of belief in unicorns because the societies we live in don’t have majorities who believe that unicorns *do*.

Not to suggest anything about anyone in particular, but again, “dependence on reason” isn’t necessary for atheism, although it can be culturally comorbid with it. Even when an atheist does depend on reason, it does not follow that that is the “theme” of any group that such atheists follow (similarly, even though many atheists seem to be scientifically minded, it does not follow that making an atheist group all about science is a “safe option” that will appeal to everyone.)

Personally, it wouldn’t matter to me if I were in a mostly (insert any color/race/ethnicity here) group and the most qualified and willing candidate for leader was (insert any color/race/ethnicity here). Because I recognize that I shouldn’t expect, nor do I deserve, the opportunity for deep discussion and a catering to the issues that most impact me from such a discussion group.

However, if it so happens that because I recognize this, I am discouraged from going to any group, or that I languish within a group, then it shouldn’t be all that surprising. ESPECIALLY if others can’t even recognize that there may be other such issues that are not being addressed.

I dunno how to truly express it. But if you can think of any time when you were so thoroughly alienated, and even your alienation was invisible (people couldn’t believe it even existed!), then I don’t think you would say things like, “Preaching to the choir really doesn’t accomplish much.” But in that alienation, you wouldn’t even be aware if there *were* a choir or if you were singing solo and a capella.

Andrew, you should not be afraid to speak your mind, you’re very well spoken.

I would agree with you if this were a group about black history and civil rights but it’s not. It’s an Atheist group. I’ll admit I only have experience with a mixed group and it was a small group so everyone participated. Every Atheist’s experience is different, not just Atheists of differing colors.

No, I can’t absolutely know what it’s like to be black any more than you can know what it’s like to be a woman. That point is well taken. I just don’t think it’s terribly relevant in this instance.

And the part of my childhood spent in a black neighborhood was in Albany, not Harlem but it’s an experience I’ve learned from, not the least lesson of which was that we’d get ganged up for being white (this was in the mid-’60’s to date myself) and when we did move to a white town, I saw the one black kid ganged up on and thought people are all alike, they’re all assholes, which 40 years later I’m still seeing as a fair assessment of things.

The discussion should be had and should be continued but can we white people also talk, especially if we don’t think people should be separated? For one thing, can I stop being blamed for things other white people did? I don’t blame all blacks for being ganged up on by some of them and I doubt very much you blame all of us for what some did. But, just as there are bigoted whites, it’s time to admit bigotry also comes into play with all humans, not just some.

I once had a teacher who taught that all bigotry is caused by fear. I’ve spent a lot of years thinking about this and have never been able to see it as otherwise much as I have tried to find some other cause of it. The older I get, the more I think it’s so. Fear is what’s really keeping people apart. Fear of what’s different than you. Fear of giving an inch and having someone else take a yard (and, yes, I mean that on both white and black sides). Frankly, fear of the unknown, of what’s going to be the result of changing the status quo. I hate to say it but we really do have nothing to fear but fear itself. At least when the status quo is separating people.

There are still inequities. I did not deny that. But they will continue to exist as long as we excuse prejudice in any form, no matter who’s practicing it. That’s why I often protest here when there’s posts or comments saying not to be tolerant of even the mildest forms of religion.

I’m willing to live and let live anyone who is willing to do the same by me. It’s when they don’t, I have a problem.

And if whites are being made to feel they shouldn’t head an inner city group that’s about something other than race, then, yes, I see a problem with that. The same problem if this group were in some largely white local and they were discouraging a black leader from running for president.

I’m a glutton for punishment, so I probably will any way.

Well, we have that much in common anyway. I speak my mind even when I know I’m gonna get flak for it. At least in situations where I don’t have to fear physical violence.

muggle,

I would agree with you if this were a group about black history and civil rights but it’s not. It’s an Atheist group. I’ll admit I only have experience with a mixed group and it was a small group so everyone participated. Every Atheist’s experience is different, not just Atheists of differing colors.

You make it seem like the the two are mutually exclusive. But aren’t atheists not seeking civil rights and protections? Aren’t we not reeling from discrimination?

As you have said, every atheists experience is different. This actually, I think, shows my case. An “atheist group” is a bit silly, because it implies a level of commonality and shared experience that atheists alone do not have. We share one nonbelief in deities, and that’s all that is *necessary* to be an atheist.

So, how do we form groups? It is through co-opting similarities elsewhere. For example, in America, most of us *do* share some semblance of common experience as a result of living in a society that is majority theistic. So, our groups co-opt that, when possible. But even this common experience isn’t so common, because “theism” too is just an umbrella. Growing up in a primarily Catholic community is different than growing up in a primarily Mormon community, growing up in a primarily protestant community, primarily Jewish community, etc.,

But it should also follow that — if there is any *social reality* to color as there is a *social reality* to religion (which there is) — then this should be coopted when available as well. I wouldn’t expect anything else. EVEN IF we ignored the social reality of color and just stuck to “atheist growing up in a religious community,” then the experience of growing up in a community whose citizens are members of primarily black churches has a big impact. Especially since plenty of black church theology *does* emphasize civil rights, black history, and black experience. I mean, really, I think this produces more tension in a way that you’d just have to live to understand. If the black church is tied to social justice and black liberation ideology, then if you are an atheist and someone calls you a racial traitor, do you realize how pervasive and insulting this is?

So I really don’t think it would be inappropriate for a group of similarly situated individuals to at least want to bring that up occasionally. I don’t know what the Harlem group talks about in particular…that may or may not be it. But I certainly don’t think that it’s so clear cut and divided as to say “It’s not about black history and civil rights.” Things are more muddled together.

No, I can’t absolutely know what it’s like to be black any more than you can know what it’s like to be a woman. That point is well taken. I just don’t think it’s terribly relevant in this instance.

If I, or someone else, started making claims about what women should do, how women really are, what groups of women should talk about and do, and it really failed to capture your experience, wouldn’t you think that it might be at least a little bit more relevant? If I said, “OK, forget your womanhood. Just stop talking about it! This part of your life is not relevant for this other group,” do you think that would be stifling? Do you have any experiences as an atheist that are impacted acutely *because* you are a woman??

And the part of my childhood spent in a black neighborhood was in Albany, not Harlem but it’s an experience I’ve learned from, not the least lesson of which was that we’d get ganged up for being white (this was in the mid-’60’s to date myself) and when we did move to a white town, I saw the one black kid ganged up on and thought people are all alike, they’re all assholes, which 40 years later I’m still seeing as a fair assessment of things.

But do you understand *why* you were ganged up on? Do you understand *why* the one black kid was ganged up on? Why are people all assholes? Is it for the same reason? Is the reason why all the same?

No one is saying that white people cannot talk. I don’t see anyone blaming you (at least, not in this discussion) for what other white people did. At the worst, I see people tiptoeing around what you are saying or doing *now*, some of which you don’t realize you are saying or doing, and would probably be adamant that you are not saying those things. With things that people do *now*, there isn’t much of a need to go around to what “other people did” or “what happened a long time ago.” There’s enough to only go by what happens every day and continually erase all of history!

Well, yes, Andrew, to all of the above. 🙂

Does being a woman have anything to do with religion or an absence thereof? Obviously. Given religion’s oppression of women.

One small thing though, I wasn’t talking about being a single mother but being of a subset of a single mother as one who fled state with her child to protect them from the other parent. I’ve yet to meet anyone, male or female, married or single, who’s done that. Yes, it would be nice.

It weirds people out. It’s only supposed to be something they’re confronted with in the abstract. All those movies and talk show discussions, vague rumors of a new underground railroad. In the flesh, the reality of it makes them uncomfortable. Yes, even other single mothers though they’re definitely more sympathetic than those who hear single mother and think welfare mother (something I’ve never been).

Sometimes it seems the chasms between people are too difficult to bridge. I hope not.

I think it for this reason I react so bitterly to common ground, such as nonbelief and the prejudice it incurs in our society, still broken down between other barriers. Color’s one but I’d have reacted if it were something like gender or your example of ex-Mormon vs. ex-Jew or something.

But if you and I can talk about it openly even in cyberspace, hey, that’s some small beginning.